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Sacred Symbols+, Episode 161: A Frank Conversation About Games Journalism (Patreon)

Published:
2022-02-05 17:01:02
Edited:
2022-02-09 16:59:42
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Stacey Henley is Editor-in-Chief of the website TheGamer (thegamer.com), a newer outlet experiencing year-over-year growth while settling comfortably into its progressive-embracing mantra. She joins me (Colin) on the show to discuss the nature of modern games journalism, full stop. But more than that, we get into the weeds when it comes to the coverage of political and social issues, the ideologically unbalanced rosters of legacy media, the corporate capture of leftwing politics in entertainment, the split between the podcast-slash-YouTube audience and those still reading websites, and so much more. More than anything, though, let this episode be yet more proof that two people who disagree on many issues can do so productively, and dare we even say cordially.



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Comments

Michael

:O

Jay Lewis

Super pumped for this!

Anonymous

Even if you disagree with someone it's nice to see some people can still have a civil conversation

Anonymous

The repeated insinuation that Sacred Symbols listeners are sending death threats to journalists, and that talking to Colin might remedy it, was kind of irritating.

MarkGrouch

I’m so glad we’re able to have actual conversations about this and not skirt around the issues acting like they don’t exist. Thank you Col!

Kenneth Oms

Hey brother this episode was great. I disagree with the notion that YouTube recommends right wing content. I work mostly in search engine optimization and I’ve dabbled with YouTube a lot to try and expand my skill set. It seems to me that YouTube and Facebook are one in the same in that it will recommend controversial content intentionally in order to get more engagement. Most channels get their traffic from the YouTube browse feature or the recommended section on the right rail. Years ago Pewdiepie discovered that massive dislikes on a video would cause the video to be recommended more and trend. The fact is that these companies want to be able to go to advertisers and say look at this watch time and look at these engagement metrics (comments more so then likes). If you made videos constantly shitting on Joe Rogan it would not only show your videos on people with similar views but also the opposing views because it will get them to engage more.

LastStandMedia
>>77260178

This is interesting insight. I wonder if it's even a step further, though: When mainstream sources dominate discussion and gain control of one in-line ideology, people are naturally going to go to the places where they can find something else.

Big Swingin' Rick

This was a really great episode, It took me a while to warm to some of the notions around YouTube = right, media = left. I think that is a serious generalization. I would consider myself left leaning, borderline socialist by American standards, and I will always choose YouTube over gaming websites and opinion pieces. And sacred symbols is the only patreon I support. So I think taking away people's individuality and breaking them into two groups in such a rudimentary fashion is unproductive. That being said I think this chat was really constructive and I hope you get her back sometime

Logan

What a great episode! I usually meme on The Gamer, but quietly to myself. I do believe that anyone should be able to create games/stories involving characters of different backgrounds. I graduated with a BFA in Sculpture and something my professor always told me was “If you’re going to incorporate other cultures/backgrounds in your work, then you better do your homework.” A great example of this is when the reboot for Killer Instinct launched. Iron Galaxy decided to retire Chief Thunder’s old look and actually reached out to the Nez Perce to help design a more accurate appearance. Now, I’m not saying that things like this should be required, but I do feel like it preemptively shuts down concerns that others may have.

Gaelan K

I’m sure there was a lot of topics to discuss and it’s hard narrowing it down to the time limit needed for the interview, but I couldn’t help wondering when China conversations would be brought up, especially in regard to DontNod. I had only discovered recently through you guys that they are owned by Tencent and yet make such an effort to make strongly LGBTQ games. I guess what I’m trying to say is I am curious to Staceys viewpoints on that, and what the cost is of getting a story out there that pays tribute to that situation, whilst also taking money from a company that has such negative connotations for that… movement? Maybe I’ll just have to see if Stacey had mentioned something about it in the past. Fantastic interview! Thanks for the wonderful content.

Thursday-Lane

Great episode. I try to listen to perspectives that conflict with my own. I am often frustrated by the tone of these programs because they seem less concerned with sharing their views and more concerned with convincing you that they are objectively and morally infallible. Hearing Stacey’s opinions was genuinely insightful and refreshing.

Drewbuntu

Good discussion. Re: "sifu is made by white males". I don't really buy Staceys explanation for that headline. No one is preventing Asians from making games about their own stories & history, CCP not withstanding. If the point of calling out Sifu as being all white male is actually to encourage Asians to make their own games then say that. Don't yell at devs for telling stories they want to tell. Also, I wish you would have learned more into "sad dad". I'm curious to hear Stacey's thoughts on that since it is such a reoccurring theme. Good job building Bridges, Sam.

Captain Bon Clay

I’ve never had a problem seeing gaming journalists as humans, it’s because they are human that they are flawed as we all are! Before gamergate I was a pretty liberal person, but when the websites I trusted ignored the facts and protected corrupt journalists and devs, instead attacking gamers, then attacking men specifically then some people even just attacked white men! Even rooster teeth’s news channels peddled the lies and attacked their own fans, seeing the betrayal of the people I trusted showed me I cannot trust anyone in the “mainstream media” as they were too bloated and corrupt to be trusted, anyway that’s my two cents Great interview as always

Garry

I don’t think she knows your audience that well . As a Scottish labour supporter all my life and also a union rep o couldn’t be more left wing, but I love love last stand for the open conversations and how funny it is . I don’t think even in the discord it’s very mixed.

LastStandMedia
>>77275319

I honestly feel like moves like that, though, are as much about virtue and marketing as it is about doing what's right.

LastStandMedia
>>77290757

Maybe she'll come back and we can ask about that. But an episode all about China is incoming.

LastStandMedia
>>77303858

Gamergate was very interesting. Will be fun to go back and study it with some distance, one day.

Mitchell Lundsberg

This was a great conversation. Good journalism still exists but it seems harder to find. I think it gets bogged down by all of the bad journalism and there is just so much noise too. Aside from last stand, I like the things they have been doing at the escapist (thanks for SS+ Calandra episode for putting me on to them). It’s interesting to see the sports world go through this as well. ESPN seems like it’s TMZ for athletes. I stopped watching years ago. I bet they don’t even know the Jets are still a football team lol. They would rather yell at each other over Aaron Rodgers vaccine status. Alright, that’s enough. My post/rant is over lol.

Anonymous

Hey Colin, did you ever ask her in private why her team’s perception of you is as it is? I throughly enjoyed the conversation, though I wish there had been a bit more time for a more in-depth and personal conversation. I understand that this was a bit of an ice breaker of a conversation, so perhaps it was best to keep it brief.

NJ

Another fascinating discussion, thanks Colin and Stacey for making it happen! I’m not sure who would be the best guest to have this discussion with but It’d be great to hear more about cultural and societal representation in games and other media. Khee Hoon Chan’s article regarding Sifu mentions that the consultant hired by the studio was also not Chinese or Asian, I’d like to hear more about how studios with more limited resources (like Lillymo) could gather support or feedback about topics when writing characters and stories. Colin mentioned writing a female/feminine character and I was reminded of something said about Mass Effect; that FemShep was so well received by female gamers because (outside of a few specific interactions) the dialogue was exactly the same as the male’s. Apologies for the essay but Colin, do you think this is a subject that you’re likely to revisit and explore more deeply? Thanks!

Jamie Milligan

Great Episode. When it came to the ‘Argument/Debate' on the Sifu article, I feel like Stacey was grasping at straws as far as the justification of the inflammatory headline. However, kudos for willing to extend a hand. And I hope this is a good step to mending the growing divide in the industry between consumers and journalists.

Andrew McGregor

Great listen. With regards to the Sifu conversation I’m still unsure how I feel, as I agree with some of the points you both made. Just highlights to me how nuance has been taken out of the mainstream conversation, which is a loss that I feel is really starting to hurt us.

Kickstand

Great episode! I think these conservations, albeit falling on some deaf ears, are very constructive. We aren’t so different, and so much of the vitriol online is amplified by repeating it, not by genuine feeling. Thanks

Ben Scott

What a great episode! Makes me feel like the world is healing to an extent. Thank you both for extending the olive branch. It’s reassuring.

william planas

I know Stacy said she didn't come on to get people to go to the gamer but I'm for sure going to be checking them out after that interview. Great stuff

Owen

Respectful discourse? What is this madness

TrackyMatts

Super interesting podcast. In the end though, I still have no idea why Stacy and her colleagues see Sacred Symbols, Colin and it's listeners as 'another side' and has vitriol towards us. If I'm on a specific side, I have no idea what it is! I think I fit into the classification of playing games just for fun. :) LIke Colin, I couldn't care less what your personal politics are (to a point).

Michael Buffill

Great interview Colin. You continuously raise the bar in having open discussions between people with differing opinions. Thank you for content with great substance.

TheJoe-senOne

I completely agree about people of other ethnicities not getting to tell their own stories. The only retort I have for that is how far should developers go to find the people who can represent a story they want to tell. And if, for some reason, they can't find someone, does that story then get pushed aside? If the majority of games writers are white dudes and they're only allowed to write about white people, won't there be complaining that all of our games are about white people? Again I want people of other ethnicities to tell their stories, 100%. I'm just curious about what happens when developers believe it isn't feasible for them to do so (personally, I don't see why it wouldn't).

Oliver Johnson

This was really great interview! I thought the Sifu conversation was pretty interesting. Maybe I’ll reach out to Stacey directly to ask this question but I’m genuinely wondering: does that mean games set in Singapore (or other under represented countries) are off limits? How do we elevate the stories of Singapore to say that we want them other than for people to do it themselves? What’s the proper way to approach a story from another country? No doubt the type of game they wanted to make is what created the setting so what should a developer do in that scenario?

NotSkyWalker

Late coming to this conversation, but I quite enjoyed it. I identify as being pretty damned liberal, but never quite thought about the separation of where folks ascribing to different political outlooks seek content. Anyway, I did enjoy the talk (and the slew of recent Sacred+ content) - thought Stacey voiced her concerns and defense of her writers' individualism in an understandable manner. I was made a bit uncomfortable by the insinuation that listeners of LSM and "senders of death threats" can be found in a shared population bubble, but I suppose that is something we all can only counter with time and a conceived effort to denounce vituperations where we may encounter them.

Anonymous

Great discussion and great to see unique content rather than people meet up to agree with each other. Reminds me your chat with Jim Sterling a few years back. I found it odd that Stacey said that appearing in your show might help prevent death threats. Surely this is a toxic culture globally that people can anonymously threaten others on the internet with no punishment. This infects games, politics, comedy, journalism etc. I don’t see how this can be blamed on your community. Surely the more dangerous situation is the ‘othering’ of people like Colin who are seen as an enemy and therefore can be accused of all forms of prejudice with no evidence. Apologies for the ramble, keep up the great content

LastStandMedia
>>77401024

I don't know what the logical conclusion really is, which is why I refuse to play this game at all.

Christopher Smith

Man this was brilliant. I really enjoyed listening to this and I hope that this does start to bridge gap in the gaming audience because I don’t really believe that it’s Colin’s fans that are sending death threats to her and her writers but I do believe that the best way to stop those types of people is to not give them any place where they think they might find respite. That is to say that if they want to go and spew hate and vitriol and death threats over there then we need to make sure that if they come over here we are talking about how disgusting that behavior is and that in this community you will find Colin talking to whomever and his community will support it even if we disagree ideologically. I can’t say this enough I think what LSM is doing is genuinely special and not something you can find anywhere else. I’m proud to be a patron and I will continue my support as long as LSM is here.

Drew Sleezer

I enjoy the way you handle yourself and make yourself open in conversations like these. I just can’t get over the victim complex she has adopted, even after the multiple examples of unwarranted attacks from her writers directed at you. But I guess that’s just the world we live in.

Joe Hammonds

Great discussion. Love that y’all welcome different perspectives. Would enjoy hearing a follow up chat with Stacey down the road. Y’all have been really hitting a stride after the holidays. Excited to hear what other conversations you have lined up.

james glenn roten

Great discussion! But, I don't recall if you two talked about how Sucker Punch made a Japanese inspired game and it's now on Famitsu's GotY and it's the first ever American game to win that Honor.

BlueBlue

What a great civil and human discussion. Wish more of her “media” members acted with an ounce of open mindedness Stacey showed simply by agreeing to come on SS. I also agree with something Colin said, I think it was their side that cause most of the divide and separation in fans. The personalities allowed to be ultra vocal on traditional media just keep digging their own graves by not practicing what they preach, inclusivity.

LastStandMedia
>>77559550

Well, I do truly believe it was the 'liberal' games media that took things too far. Not the fans.

Kingstons Grandma

I had my gripes with the guest, but overall I felt that this was a great conversation, and would love to hear more conversations with her and maybe some of the other writers that went after you, Colin, in the future. The major gripe I had was the notion that YouTube and podcasts favor “Right Wing” viewpoints like Joe Rogan (lol). I’ve worked in SEO, Websites, and PPC advertising in Google, Bing, Facebook and currently Amazon for years now and what I have seen is these algorithms do in fact deliver what they feel you will interact with. In this era, that seems to be “incendiary” content because for right now, anger is a greater driver of clicks than being pleasant. My guess is she is seeing a lot of right wing content because those platforms know she’s in the other camp. Not saying this to dunk on her or anything. I actually found her point about cultures not actually getting to tell their stories themselves very compelling, but this is a point that I have heard on both sides of the political spectrum and it’s simply, ridiculous.

Jose Cazarez

This is my first time posting here and I just wanna say how much I admire your composure. Although not explicitly saying so, this individual insinuates that our community are the ones writing hateful messages to these people when we all know this isn't true. During this show you've tried to extend an open hand, only for this person to keep drawing arbitrary lines in the sand. It sucks man, you could be a saint but they'll never stop seeing you as a sinner.

Uicreate

A little late but I have to say that this was a great conversation.

Sharang Inamdar

That was a great interview Colin, I don't think you get this kind of content anywhere else! upped my contribution after listening to this episode. I wonder if there is anyone who you can talk to who can bring a conservative PoV, considering you're more of a libertarian. Always frustrating that NR has so much on movies but nothing on gaming.

Hunter

Good episode