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Sacred Symbols+, Episode 161: A Frank Conversation About Games Journalism (Video) (Patreon)

Published:
2022-02-05 17:01:59
Edited:
2022-02-09 16:59:45
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Content

For your viewing pleasure.

Files

A Frank Conversation About Games Journalism | Sacred Symbols+ Episode 161

Stacey Henley is Editor-in-Chief of the website TheGamer (thegamer.com), a newer outlet experiencing year-over-year growth while settling comfortably into its progressive-embracing mantra. She joins me (Colin) on the show to discuss the nature of modern games journalism, full stop. But more than that, we get into the weeds when it comes to the coverage of political and social issues, the ideologically unbalanced rosters of legacy media, the corporate capture of leftwing politics in entertainment, the split between the podcast-slash-YouTube audience and those still reading websites, and so much more. More than anything, though, let this episode be yet more proof that two people who disagree on many issues can do so productively, and dare we even say cordially.

Comments

Brian Salazar

The gamer is such an unfortunate name. Lol

Cody Richter

Looking forward to this one. Props to Colin for always having the conversations many others won't.

Ed Cruzat

At this pace you're gonna be bought by Spotify! Great work

Anonymous

Great work as always Colin. Respect to you for doing what most would never do with a lot of these podcasts.

Rage.Quit_Richard

I was riveted. I usually have these episodes on in the background. I watched this stem to stern on video. The entire conversation was fascinating and I actually found Stacey charming, articulate, and insightful. Colin you obviously don’t need me to tell you how important these conversations are but still, this was extremely enlightening. Thx

Tristen Wilbers

I loved this conversation. Just to add some flavor to the question of writing diverse characters. In the film industry, how I've come to terms with that question as a white guy is this: write any character you want, of any background, but if you are telling a uniquely black or other perspective, then you have to have black people involved in the creation. Not doing so is how white savior roles were so often written in media for decades until recently. So, if you are telling a uniquely japanese story like in GoT or Sifu (and not just a story WITH a Japanese person) then you better have a damn good foundation in the Japanese perspective. I don't think it's a hard rule, but definitely a good guideline for how to approach representation as a creator.

Phillip

As always well done Colin. I don’t pay attention to many new game journalists. I’m an old gamer of 45 years … I enjoy many of the “legacy” journalists like yourself. So this was my first time being introduced to Stacey. Was a great interview. Good to hear the perspective and discussion .

LastStandMedia
>>77259863

I don't agree with your solution, but I respect you feel that way. I am writing a bunch of non-white characters in our next game. My co-writer is white. It's not going to stop us from telling our story, which happens to include many non-white folks.

Jamie Anderson

Only one side attacks for having a conversation and it ain't us. Another good watch/listen colin.

Chris Morton

I think this episode is a step in the right direction, but I can't help but notice that Stacey, who is very concerned about her writers receiving nasty messages, doesn't seem to care that those same writers do the exact same thing to people they disagree with. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

RFK Rodgers 2024

I really enjoyed that conversation. I wish more people in the industry were willing to come together and have conversations like you two verse just writing inflammatory articles about the “other side”. Good stuff all around.

Mike D

Interesting point she made about how people on the left and right complain about the inclusion of gay or trans characters for different reasons. We put a gay character in our game- not because we're flying the flag for lgbtq, we just thought, why not have a bit of diversity and freedom of choice... however the worst roasting we got was from a LQBTQ gaming magazine, who seemed to come at it with so much baggage from their own agenda, we wished we hadnt attempted to have the inclusivity, despite having good intentions, and not to pander to anyone. As a straight male I dont just want to include characters with my own life experience, but this was certainly off-putting.

WDWRM

The Last of Us board meeting was such a good verbalization of how I've felt for the longest of time. Inclusivity and representation in an art form that's funded by giant corporations can stem from a very gray area, but whether the beneficial end result justifies the potentially shady motivation can only be decided on a personal level.

Ryan R. Kittredge
>>77261791

I thought the same thing. Whenever Colin brought up the messages specifically targeting him Stacey didn’t really reply or say anything about the situation. That was a bit frustrating

LastStandMedia
>>77261791

I agree with this, too, but I didn't want to press too hard. I spoke with her privately about my thoughts there, too.

LastStandMedia
>>77263030

It is an interesting point that if we just stopped shouting, we'd probably realized we want many of the same things... and who cares if we get to that point in a different way?

Kjellbjørn Åsmo

As a soon to be 40 year old white man who loves games. I was very glad when gaming “opened up” to be more diverse. And it was good and exciting for a while. Now the rhetoric around almost every single game is either anti man or anti white or anti western culture. Or maybe some developer dared to make a game with a traditionally attractive woman (project e.v.e comes to mind), the horror!! And it kills the hype for me when the rhetoric is so inflammatory , even though the game may be fine. Mainstream gaming media is the worst participant in this because they either attack games that aren’t “diverse” enough or they praise games for not featuring the above mentioned ingredients (male ,white,western culture). They “scare” the developers so they chose to jump on the progressive intersectional train to not be called the usual fobes or ists. I used to believe that once the ball got rolling we would se new and diverse main characters and stories complimenting the more traditional stuff. I want everyone to be able to make the games they want to, not feel pressured to check every inch of the game so to not offend somebody by mistake. Now it all feels like some kind of revenge , and the power these journalists have to set restrictions on what developers can and can’t put in their games is not good for keeping gaming diverse as a medium. Rant over. Good conversation as always Colin. She didn’t seem very unreasonable, just wish the people on her side could show some nuance in their articles and on social media.

Robert DeCaro

Colin, as always thank you for continuing to deliver excellent content. It seems like the most salient point is how much better “your” side comes across if you take the time to explain the nuance when stating your point of view rather than defaulting to pitch forks and torches. I don’t think attacking someone has ever successfully changed someone’s opinion nor made them open to thinking differently. But trying to help someone else see some else’s perspective or thought process? that’ll open some doors.

Ryan Taylor

Was a great listen and respected a lot of what Stacey had to say, but can we just enjoy the irony of Stacey banging on about how her journalists are harassed, then Colin brings up multiple examples of it happening to him from her journalists and it amounts to ‘well that’s fine’ You can’t have your cake and eat it too. You can’t demand people not do something, while your own team are doing the same thing. Overall I think this was a good conversation and Stacey was a good sport for coming on while the rest of games journalism are too scared to have a discussion.

Empty Symbol

Fucking banger as always.

Matthew Foley

This was such a great episode. I have nothing but respect for Stacy. I might disagree with some of her points of view but I have a lot of sympathy for her plight. No one should be getting death threats for having opinions on video games. I really do hope this interview has the impacts she hopes on some of the crazies out there. Once again LSM knocking it out of the park with these SS+ episodes. Can’t wait for the next banger.

Jeffrey Willingham

Really interesting to get a trans persons perspective on inclusion of trans folks in games. My problem with TLOU2’s inclusion was that it felt completely out of the way from a narrative perspective. It kind of came out of nowhere and thus felt like I was being beaten over the head for the choice to include this character. I wanted to get back to that old theatre so bad to see what would happen and it just felt like a chore to go through this extra part of the game to get me there. I guess ultimately it gave some humanity to Abbey though so idk, just my two cents that no one asked for 🤷‍♂️

Liam Mcnulty

Imagine making a game, spending a chunk of your life trying to make the best game you can, then getting attacked for being white lol. Referring to that single reporter as a "they" was pretty jarring as to me. I'll call a trans women "she" and vice versa for trans male, but the "they/them" isn't a game I'm willing to play. It doesn't make sense. I didn't like how at the end you asked her to let the audience know how to find her and she made the comment "that's risky", insinuating this is the type of audience that will attack her for having a chat. I respect her for coming on here, I think it's her side she's at risk from, not us. This was excellent insight, Colin. Thank you for the content.

Jeffrey Willingham

I would assume to dedicate a portion of your life to making a game like sifu, you would have a deep reverence for Asian culture. Ya lost me there

Gavin Simmons

Great talk. I found it very sad that Stacy said she expected blow back from her side for appearing on this show. This is exactly what we all need, people with all sorts of thoughts and opinions just sitting down and having a respectable chat.

DanXcel

Two civil adults who don't see eye to eye on everything having a healthy discussion on hot topics....who would've thought that could happen in todays world?! Lol!!! Seriously, terrific work and I applaud Stacey for coming on the show. These last few months of SS+ have been some of the best content you've ever put out Colin.

Jefferson Souza
>>77288863

I saw the “risky” comment as a joke, but I think it fell flat because of how the whole thing went.

Jefferson Souza

I think the whole idea that the creator’s identity must mach it’s creation is incredibly silly. A white dude making a game about Japanese, Chinese, Latin, Black etc. doesn’t harm the respective people’s opportunity to make their own game about their race or ethnicity. It may even be beneficial for raising awareness about those groups. The complaints about Tsushima I feel are particularly stupid since Sucker Punch is owned by Sony. What is more, I don’t recall anyone complaining about a Japanese team making Metal Gear Solid games.

Greg Wallace

Colin, Great conversation and episode. I’m glad to see you get people who you don’t necessarily agree with and have a civilized conversation. I know you read these comments so I wanted to take the time to ask you a question I’ve been meaning to ask. If you can answer why have you chosen to write games starring women and black characters? To be clear this isn’t a call to defend yourself, more of a curiosity. We often see white male protagonists because much of the industry is full of white males. When they do write minorities we end up with hits or misses on the execution. Insomniac did an excellent job with Miles Morales and tackling his background without leaning on stereotypes and tropes while the first articles from a behind closed doors preview of Forespoken has people worried. The writers referred to their lead (who is fresh out of jail for some reason) as having a “hip hoppy” kind of “swag”. So I’m curious what drove you to make a person of color and a woman your lead characters? And follow up question, do you think it has impacted how you write them? Thanks for the great content

LastStandMedia
>>77265366

I agree with your sentiment. I've always been open-minded and accepting of others; it's awesome everyone gets to feel and be a part of this. But it should never be done at the barrel of a gun.

LastStandMedia
>>77269629

One of the reasons I want to continue to have conversations with people is to prove that my viewpoints are backed-up, supportable, and correct.

LastStandMedia
>>77270826

It's definitely a detachment for her, but I'm not sure she really had it posed to her. That's part of the danger of being in a bubble.

LastStandMedia
>>77288863

It's the first time I've ever had to use that pronoun. It's fine, I don't want to disrespect people. I won't use fictional words.

LastStandMedia
>>77290937

The blowback she'll get is exclusively from her own people. It's the reason why I think these talks are vital.

LastStandMedia
>>77304843

I agree. It's irrelevant in a globalized world, where we've all taken whatever we wanted from each other's societies and cultures.

LastStandMedia
>>77307263

It's just how I always envisioned our story. I've written several stories with a black male lead protagonist (that you guys have never seen)... it's always been a draw for me. I don't think their characters are impacted by my whiteness, because it's my hope that when you meet them, you don't think of their gender and color much at all.

Liam Mcnulty
>>77288863

I totally get it, and respect you're just trying to be respectful. I'm probably weird but I find it disrespectful being expected to forget how grammar works and refer to a singular person as a plural 😂 I can't do it, I'll just call that person "mate" lol

Jeremy Craves

Finished it last night and really enjoyed it. It’s obvious, like the Rogan topic brought up in SS, the tweets you brought to her attention are from people who clearly have never listened to you and are willing to use dishonesty to try make you look bad. Hopefully they give it a listen.

Greg Wallace
>>77288863

I wouldn’t think too much on the “they/them” topic. If a person wants to be referred to as such, that’s what I’ll do. Language changes constantly and I don’t think it’s too big of an ask even if I don’t particularly like it grammatically. Also people use they/them to refer to singular people all the time. For example I’ve said “Where are they?” For a singular person before.

Liam Mcnulty
>>77288863

Sorry, Greg, I strongly disagree with you entirely. But you call someone by a plurality if you wish, I don't care what you do, I won't play that game though. And no, if it's one person, I say "Where is he/she?" Words matter. But like I said, you do you. I don't expect you to refer to me as "Your Highness".

Greg Wallace
>>77288863

I think words matter both more and less than the value you seem to have for them. Less in that their meaning is constantly in flux and more in that forcing using labels that do not accurately describe someone’s identity is disrespecting them regardless of your stance. There are people to which the he/she label don’t apply, IE intersexuals. What word do you use in their case? All I’m saying is perhaps give a second thought to the rigid standard which you hold our endlessly complicated and constantly evolving language. I’m sure I won’t change your mind on a Patreon thread, but I hope you won’t be hostile to the ideas I present. Also the “your highness” thing is an example of false equivalency but I’ll take it as a joke and move on lol.

Liam Mcnulty
>>77288863

Intersex isn't some third gender, it's an abnormality, and I don't mean that in a disparaging way, it's a biological fact. We're a two sex reproducing species. Your premise relies on that men and women saying they're "they/them" are intersex... I've never seen that to be the case. "What word do you use in their case"... The odds of me coming up against a genuine intersex person is slim to none, so I won't worry about it, until I have to. And most intersex people choose an actual gender they identify with most, I'll follow their lead on that, unless it's "they/them". Expecting me to change my language to suit your agenda, with no regard to my own agency is disrespectful. Like I said, you do you, and I'll continue with using words correctly. I'm not progressive, please respect that. I don't tell you up stop being progressive. I gave it a second thought, and decided against it. It wasn't just me being stubborn, I gave it thought, just because I didn't decide your way wasn't just some "rigid standard". Do you only accept it when people agree with you? And if they don't you call them "disrespectful"? I'll happily call trans women, women and vice versa for trans men. "They/them" is where I decided and chose to draw the line. Virtue signalling, or morally grandstanding at me, saying I'm "disrespectful" isn't going to wash, because honestly, I think you're disrespectful telling me how I should use words. I don't tell you how to live your life. You do you. I'm not after a discussion with anyone, my comment was for Colin. No disrespect, but I don't know you and the moral grandstanding just means I won't ever accept your premise. Being progressive doesn't give your moral superiority over me, tbh I find it regressive, and disrespectful. Let's just agree to disagree, and leave it here. I hope you have a nice day.

Greg Wallace
>>77288863

I’ll write one last thing to you Liam. I apologize if I have disrespected you. I meant no ill will towards you. Perhaps I shouldn’t have replied but at the moment I felt compelled to try and explain my rationale and appreciate that you have responded to me. I don’t honestly identify as a progressive nor do I feel I hold a moral high ground. Like I said before I don’t think I’ll change your mind, but I’d hoped you’d be able to hear a differing opinion without hostility. We can agree to disagree here and I wish you well.

Liam Mcnulty
>>77288863

You don't need to apologise lol. No, I get it, it's just when I saw the "disrespectful" card being played it annoyed (triggered? 😂) me a little lol. But this is the Internet and I'm sure you never meant it that way. And I know how I come across in written form, I'm blunt and snarky lol. So I'll apologise in return. I get your point, I do. I understand why people, such as yourself are happy to use "they/them", I personally don't feel comfortable doing so, that's all. I have thought about it, I'm not out to offend anyone, but on this one I'm going to have to risk offending, though it's not intended. Anyway I was sincere when I wished you a nice day, you seem like a nice lad, we just disagree. At the end of the day, we're all gamers here, so there's always common ground between people that we can find 👍

Remedy Live

Really enjoyed this conversation. Only goes to show the possibilities if everyone form all sides spoke more often

Greg Wallace
>>77307263

Thanks for taking time out to respond. I look forward to seeing how the final product shakes up soon!

Peaky (edited)

Comment edits

2022-02-06 21:49:31 She talked a lot about using this as a way to reduce the hate messages her writers receive. I'd like to think it goes both ways - hopefully her having a respectful conversation with you will help her writers and audience realise you aren't literally Hitler and reduce the amount of hate they spit out any time your name is brought up.
2022-02-06 21:47:06 She talked a lot about using this as a way to reduce the hate messages her writers receive. I'd like to think it goes both ways - hopefully her having a respectful conversation with you will help her writers and audience realise you aren't literally Hitler and reduce the amount of hate they spit out any time your name is brought up. Would have been nice for her to acknowledge that it goes both ways, but a step in the right direction!

She talked a lot about using this as a way to reduce the hate messages her writers receive. I'd like to think it goes both ways - hopefully her having a respectful conversation with you will help her writers and audience realise you aren't literally Hitler and reduce the amount of hate they spit out any time your name is brought up. Would have been nice for her to acknowledge that it goes both ways, but a step in the right direction!

RenegerGraeme

Really enjoyed this episode and love having adult discussions like this. One point I would make is that I don't like this assertion or assumption that the people who direct hate / hateful messages towards the writers of sites like The Gamer are "someone else's audience" (in other words they are fans of someone like Colin) and that by appearing on a podcast like this you are sort of going behind enemy lines. This mentality of disassociating yourself from those who act negatively towards you and worse, grouping them together with others in order to create some imagined pantomime villain fanbase (such as often happens to this community) is deeply flawed and counter productive. Just because people don't agree with your viewpoint doesn't mean they are someone else's audience. You cannot just pick and choose and call the people who consume your content and like it "your audience". Then "other" all the people who consume your content and react negatively.

LastStandMedia
>>77328781

I agree with your sentiment. I don't control the actions or words of anyone, but me. It's an impossible standard.

Josh Goetz

Interesting conversation as always! Really glad Stacy decided to come on the show. I feel like the hate towards traditional media from the youtube/podcasting side might be because it is easier to view them not just as normal people when it is just a name behind an article or twitter profile rather than seeing the person's face. Doing more stuff like this will hopefully start to bridge the gap between the two. I feel like most of the time if people sat down and had 1 on 1 conversations like this then 99% of the toxic bs could be avoided even when people disagree on some things.

Nathan Densley

Just finished the video. I will be listening and subscribing until you quit, Colin. Thanks for giving us a voice that is sensible and kind. Because when they attack you and say these thing about you it feels like an attack on me and the people in my life. I know you never wanted to represent anyone but yourself, but thanks for doing it anyways. I am always sorry when they come after you. This episode just speaks of your character loud and clear. Keep going!

The Rose Experience

Thanks to Stacey for doing the show, a couple of the tales I strongly disagree with: - Stacey seems to have the assumption that people from the legacy/mainstream media are the only ones getting harassed, or sadly even death threats and the way it’s stated Stacey infers it’s coming from one side. All online vitriol should be shouted down and stop but that isn’t going to happen unfortunately, but In my and many, admittedly even on the left’s, experience it’s that the left seems to hold the belt when it comes to online harassment over social media so it’s definitely coming from all angles, against all media. -Stacey’s take on the writer criticizing SIFU being made from an all white team is something I strongly disagree with and found her defense flimsy at best. The very nature of the defense is divisive and invites racially toned criticism and eventually even harassment. There are a myriad of Asian/Singapore etc studios and creators, what’s stopping them from making a game like SIFU? There are a ton of Asian toned, based and influenced games and media as well created by people that range the cultural gamut, the very headline of that writers piece is slanted and pretending it’s an innocence statement of fact is quite insincere. Colin should have pushed back on that as he has many times before in that very topic. -Horizon being the first great PS4 game? Opinion sure but the PS4 had been out for over 3 years by that point, there were many great games when Horizon was released. Again, don’t mistake my disagreements as me not wanting these conversations to occur, it’s quite the opposite and despite my opposition Stacey’s points are agreeable, I just don’t think they painted a complete picture. More of this.

LastStandMedia
>>77354962

Thank you. I understand what you mean, you are not the only one to feel that way, and I try to do my best to represent us well.

LastStandMedia
>>77350252

That's a really good point, although many sites have done a good job over the last 15 years, even, of humanizing people.

The Rose Experience

Always Colin. Day 1 supporter and infrequent commenter here due to time constraints but your commitment to staying directly involved is pretty astounding. You’re doing a great job man.

Ryan Wargo

I just got around to listening to this and very much enjoy the discussions around the discourse of the hobby. It's been stated numerous times that it seems to come from one side but it's definitely not exclusive. The recent G4TV debacle led to a bunch of infighting about TheQuartering having a discussion with Frosk. Discussions need to had and bubbles need to be broken. I think a lot of issues arise from people really just not thinking or listening for themselves, so this content is extremely important Colin.

TeethMummy

I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. Stacey had some interesting thoughts in regards to the validity of the SIFU article that is eliciting strong reactions, I liked hearing her perspective. It is valid and worth listening to, the format and language within the headline is obviously designed to drive engagement, which is a problem "legacy media" just can't seem to move past. Stacey gave me a new perspective on the article and I understand it better now, even if I don't agree entirely with what it had to say. The only issue is I felt that Stacey referenced that she felt coming to your show was worth it if even one person heard her and reconsidered sending a death threat to her writers, and I find this mildly insulting. She came on your show to speak to your audience, and we don't do that. Your Patrons aren't sending death threat to hot-take artists at games websites. Your Patrons don't read these sites, because we're not interested in that kind of content. I pay for this content because I don't care about opinion pieces calling out problematic things in games. I care about games and the escapism of a fun show that's welcoming to all. While I can't speak for everyone, we all have a sense for this community and how we treat each other. Stacey - we aren't sending you death threats. We aren't reading your content, many of us have never even been to TheGamer before. We pay for Colin's content because yours isn't appealing to us, and that's okay. Please don't insinuate that you're addressing an audience you worry will threaten you for speaking. We aren't that. Thanks Colin for the great discussions.

Player X

Dude, this was not a frank conversation about game journalism. You might have tried to lead the conversation in that direction a few times but it never stuck. It was just some lady scared by the backlash from her employees shitty behavior online hoping appearing too have a civil conversation with you would help. Which she pointed out over and over again. There is this one point you guys talked about the issues with cultural representation in game development and journalistic approaches to addressing it that was pretty insightful. I never really thought about it before.

Dan P

While the majority of media cultivates their echo chambers, LSM once again proves that this is the most diverse community by the only metric where diversity truly matters - diversity of thought and opinion.

Dan P
>>77405570

Agreed, the responses to their own toxicity seemed evasive and shallow.

Cannonball_Jones
>>77288472

Personally, I felt like TLOU2 had one of the best narrative justifications of a character transitioning because it frames gender through the culture of the scars. Without giving anything away, the origins of Lev’s transition is a scenario in which lots of people could see themselves making that decision. It’s one of the things that I really like about Naughty Dog, they don’t always nail it but for me 90% of the time that they reach for something people would deem as “woke” they completely earn it narratively especially in The Last of Us Part II.

Shane Boyle

This was a fantastic listen. One of the things that I didn't really agree with was Stacey's comment that they aren't trying to attract people that disagree with them, rather they want to be able to defend the content they put out. This is the issue with a lot of modern games journalism IMO. A defensive attitude towards one's own ideologies and stances, with no interest in opening the mind to disagreeable views. The fact that Stacey openly admits to having to keep this appearance to herself to avoid having to defend the decision to appear on LSM only serves to highlight further what a fucking echo chamber gaming media has become. I mean no hostility towards Stacey, I think she brought some fantastic points to the table in this discussion, but I just can't get behind this mentality that we have to justify the choices we make on the people we interact with to others. I can't help but feel that what she brought to the table would have held a lot more weight for me if she didn't find herself feeling like she had to treat appearing on LSM as some sort of clandestine operation.

LastStandMedia
>>77401861

That's a fair point, and perhaps, in hindsight, I should have pushed back on it more vociferously.

LastStandMedia
>>77437342

Well, it's that mentality which is why -- which respect to her and her staff -- they will likely fail. As I said: I want their audience, full-stop.

Levelupbrady

This was great! I can't wait to hear more podcasts like this one. Great job Colin and Stacey. Sending you both my Love!

Diego Cruz (Abims0)

Amazing conversation! Grateful to have LSM in my life.

Gabriel SG

Fantastic episode Colin, love to hear content outside of the usual right / left echo chamber.

Daniel Wingy

Colin, this was one of my favourite episodes. I'm definitely what would be called left leaning so it's always interesting to hear somebody who seems to be explicitly on the left side of things talk with you. One thing I really appreciate about LSM are these broad and varied conversations, especially by those who may hold a different viewpoint to yourself. I feel the cogs in my brain moving and working whenever I listen to these episodes. Please keep them coming 👍🏾

Alex Watson

Awesome episode, will definitely check out the site. It does bum me out though to hear them say that on one hand, the site’s mission statement is diversity. But on the other hand freely admit that most the people they hire feel the same way about most political issues. I agree that you should let your writers be honest in their opinions when they write. Anything else will be fake and your audience will see through it. But you can solve that problem by just hiring people that have different opinions. Then you’ll have true diversity.

Ricky Bosworth

This was excellent! Fantastic job as always in dismantling the idea that everyone hates everyone! Keep up the good fight LSM!

Fotis Lyto

This was interesting but I seem to disagree with almost everything Stacey said, I guess I’m too ingrained in the culture war but I’m not right as well, at least I don’t consider myself one. However, Colin when people say “we don’t want politics in games” it is something more like people don’t like a particular, only one, message and a checkbox for the roster and set up,story. That makes the story effectively propaganda and propaganda is never good. MGS2 is extremely political but it doesn’t beat you over the head with the message but it shows you it’s story and let you think and take what you understand. Just that the “No politics” slogan we’ve seen is really misleading unfortunately.

Tacoyaki

This was a very, very good episode. I love the insight and it kept a very nice conversation on the table. I love these episodes you guys, keep them coming!

Lord Zedd

If Stacey wanted to write a game/novel/movie about the American Civil War or something else uniquely American. More power to her. You are reading from the same text. It has no bearing that my distant relatives fought in it. And to me it becomes even less important the further back i.e. “Ghost of Tsushima” (if we wanted to play semantics, is funded and approved by a Japanese company). Writers should be able to write and create what they want regardless of their sex,religion,race etc. and it is a spit in the face of creativity to say that they can’t. OR try and pressure creators into doing something else. The Aloy example was perfect by Colin. If the man who created her was supposed to stick to writing male characters for some arbitrary reason, then obviously that character wouldn’t exist as we know and love. Which is a greater shame. You can’t call for diversity in characters and then complain when these highly talented people create those diverse characters but those creators happen to be a man, or white, or whatever characteristic they choose to complain about.

LastStandMedia
>>77521600

I think there's more value in being eclectic and offering many opinions, as opposed to just one side.

LastStandMedia
>>77556616

Yes, but it's a dead end to make this argument. Politics and games are linked. We need to make the connection more interesting and productive, is all.

Germanos

This episode has shown me how many levels above, you (Colin) are in such conversations above what I do on my podcast, a great thing to aspire to. I wouldn't be able to have such a calm discussion, as I disagree with almost anything Sophie has said, and I was internally screaming at some raised points. The part about SIFU was so wrong I almost quit listening, not to mention being on the second end of the conversation. Well done Colin.

mana

I can’t help but imagine the similar outrage that would occur in these very same outlets if white male creators only wrote and voiced (Kratos is a good example of what would would be lost with the latter) white male characters. In fact, as Grace and Colin point out, this WAS the case for much of the early history of the medium, and there WAS pushback that led to more diverse characters in general, as well as diverse groups of people joining the industry. Given that many of the institutional barriers have lowered or otherwise ceased to exist for historically underrepresented groups in the industry, perhaps now is the time to care even less than before about who chooses to tell what story. If Ghost of Tsushima or Sifu had “me luv you wong time” offensive caricatures as representations that would be one thing (and consumers probably would vote against it with their wallets anyways), but it’s clear that developers of all creeds generally try to treat other cultures with respect when they try doing their own thing with them. If minorities also want to use their own perspectives to inform representations, then great! If it’s any good it will sell/be reviewed well and if it’s not then it won’t. We should focus on whether the representation (and more importantly, the art itself) was good or bad before we focus on who created it. For everything Grace argued about the value of artistic critique in games journalism (and I agree), there is a stunning lack of recognition about the value of a principle like “the death of the author”. Long story short, the Sifu article was the exact kind of embarrassment that has led traditional outlets to die in the face of real competition from authentic creators. While Grace was very respectful on the show, her defense does not cut mustard as an argument—and the fact that she stated she would have chosen to be “even more inflammatory” tells me that the basis for her position leans more on ideology than reason. My favorite content from Moriarty is when he discusses issues with those on the opposing side—I hope he finds a better sparring partner next time.

Ian Everett Trout

She seems to have a different idea than me about what the word genuine means. The devs who made Sifu obviously have their own unique and genuine perspective.

Mark Lee

Fantastic episode Colin and an interesting interview. I read another gaming site’s review of Sifu which gave it a negative write up and it ended by linking to The Gamer article mentioned in your episode but saying that the fact the game was made by a predominantly white team didn’t influence the “score”. Personally, if it didn’t influence the score then it didn’t need mentioning. Would love to know your thoughts on this as I find it frustrating. I’ve been a follower since the Beyond days and I appreciate your measured viewpoints on everything gaming and more. Thank you for everything you do and, if you make it to the UK for a Sacred/LSM show, it would be a blast to see you all live.

LastStandMedia
>>77629224

I don't think the writer of the Sifu article could truly articulate her problem with the game, apart from her interpretation of their interpretation of a culture. It's goofy, and would be easy to dismantle. I asked Stacey if she thought that writer would be interested in me reaching out and coming onto the show, but she said the writer wouldn't, and I respect that.

Philip T

First I'd like to just say up front: I love what you guys do at LSM, you make great content and I'm glad I'm able to support you guys even just a little bit over here on Patreon. I avoided listening to this episode specifically for a little while because it was a bit of a personal sore spot for me. Going into the episode, I thought the topic would be a lot more centered around the more fast-paced, content farm-esque reporting a lot of these sites seem to center around. As in reality, this is a lot of what "new games media" looks to be from the outside, and generally is on the inside (coming from someone who's experienced it first hand.) News pieces with very fast turnaround rates, essentially apeing other news stories from other outlets, in as few words as possible with a different coat of paint on it. While that subject matter was only a brief portion of this episode, I was surprised that the general direction turned towards adding more inclusivity and diversity through younger freelancers looking to start in the industry as Stacey put it. While I suppose that's fair in a way, it really betrays the reality of what many of these "young freelance writers" experience working for these sites. Up until last year, I was a writer with TheGamer's (former, I believe) "sister" site, GameRant, which to my knowledge is under the larger umbrella of an ad company called Valnet, which provides adsense to this network of sites. And in all honesty is probably the real root of many of the issues that plague these types of outlets and trickle down to the writers. I was a "freelance" writer there for nearly two years and a "Staff Writer" (I use these titles incredibly loosely because the site did as well) for a brief period of time. To make a long story short, my experience wildly differed from the picture Stacey paints in this episode. Specifically in regards to pay, where freelancers essentially work for pennies with no realistic chance of being able to support their livelihoods working for these sites. For example, as a Staff Writer, I was tasked with writing 100 articles a month to receive my 'Staff Writer benefit', and if I didn't hit the 100 articles, regardless of how close I'd come, that bonus was null and void. Additionally, writers at the site were paid a flat $10 rate per news story (with little variance in Features, Guides, etc.) with a 25 cent x per page view bonus rate attached, or something very close to it. All that to say, while there were some positives to the experience, it largely soured my impression to this "new generation of games media" and painted a really bleak outlook for working in the industry as a whole. It was stressful, unfulfilling, and it payed laughably. I'll never forget Colin said something along the lines of "I wouldn't get out of bed for 10 dollars" in a SS episode from last year when talking about this same subject very briefly for a relevant bit of news. I really would have loved if you (Colin) would have somehow found a way to hit upon this area of modern gaming outlets a little harder, but I understand just how touchy and uncomfortable a subject like this can be for a plethora of different reasons. As someone burned by these kind of outlets in the past, I couldn't help but feel frustrated as a listener hearing an Editor-In-Chief paint a more "sunshine and rainbows" picture. Apologies for the long-winded comment, but I felt it could be interesting to hear a different perspective on this talk for those who may stumble across this comment. Regardless, props to the both of you for having a conversation at all, and props especially to you, Colin, for pressing her on other issues and having an engaging discussion overall. Thanks, much love, and keep at it.

Louis Harrison
>>77701070

As someone who knows nothing about games journalism, I appreciate your perspective on this. Thanks for sharing.

Joseph Baker

This was most excellent. I feel like fireside chats are back!!