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Sacred Symbols+, Episode XXVII: We're Wrong?! (Patreon)

Published:
2020-02-07 17:01:02
Edited:
2020-02-10 07:52:48
Imported:
2022-01

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Content

Every week, we talk and you listen. We include lots of your questions, comments, concerns, thoughts, and ideas throughout our run-of-show, of course, but it's mostly a one-way street, and we know that we say some stuff that you simply don't agree with. So this episode of + (and next week's, too!) is all about you guys and gals challenging us. Our ideas. Our opinions. Our gaming knowledge. Our tastes. Anything and everything that we talk about on Sacred Symbols and its spin-off is up for debate. Can we defend our stances under a barrage of incoming fire? You're about to find out.

Files

Comments

Anthony J Sanchez

I can't wait to listen! Thanks again for the great content.

Teny Kuti

Oh no, I completely forgot to submit for this episode! Well, I guess I’ll just say it. Bethesda Game Studios has never made a good game.

Anonymous

Hey, you two. Colin, this is primarily for you- I know you are a history buff, and I know you have played some of the earlier installments of Assassins Creed. As a lover of history myself, there’s something really incredible about ‘meeting’ Charles Dickens and doing quests for him in AC Syndicate, and, minor spoilers, fighting against King Ramses’ ghost in AC Origins, and even engaging in light-hearted political banter with Socrates in AC Odyssey. Yes, AC nowadays is vastly expansive, and arguably too big, but what’s so great about the series is being able to walk through time and see a rendering of what these worlds looked like from thousands of hours of historical research. I’m not saying you’re wrong because your opinions and feedback are valid. I am just saying that I think you’re really missing out on skipping over these games. :)

Anonymous

The narrative of the last of us is a rote, generic take on a zombie story that hits all the cliches you'd expect. The combat is solid but uninspiring. Plank, ladder, and pallet based traversal gameplay is the diametric opposite of fun. 8/10.

Anonymous
>>32209001

I think where most people find Last of Us having a great story is in the character dynamics and development

Benito

Hold on lemme take my pants off... Ok now I'm ready to listen.

Anonymous

Hey Hominid Chris and Angelic Colin, 1st time writing in after 2-ish months of being a happy patron. Got introduced to Colin and the podcast through Chris, but before that it was SomeBlackGuy who introduced me to Chris. So shout-out to SomeBlackGuy. My questione: What is/are your favourite rogue-like game(s)? I'm far from having listened even 10% of the podcasts, but in the ones I have listened I've never heard you guys talk about games like Binding of Isaac or Slay the Spire. (my personal 2 favourites) Love to hear you guys' opinions on random generation in games like this and your personal experience with these kind of games. Much love from Belgium and thank you for making every day a little nicer.

LastStandMedia
>>32208570

Heather, you missed the submission window! We'll do this again, though, since you all apparently have a lot more to say to us...

Anonymous

Chris is like a 50 year old gamer stuck in a 25 year old body. Everything is baffling and confusing for him.

Anonymous

Wishing you a good weekend, Colin! Mwah!

Anonymous

You should call metroidvanias AEPs. Action Exploration Platformers.

Jake Z

Loved the episode. Great content. However, I did find your game price response incoherent, Colin. You say the mobile market is a race to the bottom, and every week you say the "drop" resembles the myriad crap that's on the mobile market, but somehow you think AAA game prices will go up, counter to the trend of the mobile market? How does the logic work there? As Chris Anderson famously layed out in his book, Free, Econ 101 tells us in a competitive market price approaches the marginal cost of production, and with digital media that cost is effectively zero. We have seen that bear out in large part. Subscription services are a continuation of this trend where the marginal cost of any given piece of content in a package is effectively zero. Now I could see a situation where buying games becomes like buying vinyl, but the price of vynil is not representative of the actual price of music nowadays. I don't see how the games industry goes against this overall trend. It's actually been amazing console gaming has remained this expensive this long. Side responses: 1. The price of iPhones isn't analogous to games. Games are digital media, iPhones aren't. It's a good argument for why next gen console prices may be higher, though. 2. I don't know how I contradicted myself in my initial comment. I said game sizes have gone up despite staying at the same price, suggesting either productivity has increased or sales have increased or both. This trend could continue, which could allow games to stay at their current price or even fall despite inflation. 3. I'm not making the argument because I couldn't afford $70 games. I would actually like to pay more for games to get more premium experiences. Just don't think that's where the market is headed.

Jason Stafford

I look forward to this, not because I like it when you guys are wrong, but it will be a nice slice of catharsis for all the times I feel like a dumbass outlier. <3 Love you guys!

Adam Barnes

The way Chris spoke about RDR2 hit me right in the feels. I’m starting that game up again

Anonymous

"You walk around carrying packages and fall and say fuck" as a UPS guy in Canada, this is why I can't play Death Stranding.. its my god damn life.

Timothy Bryant

My question was snubbed like fuck on the podcast and the only conclusion I can reasonably draw was that Colin was too scared to defend his point because he had no defense. Lmaoo anyway great episode nonetheless and can’t wait for next week’s episode

Biv

Xbox One UI is vastly superior to the PS4. Everything is just one button away. IMO, if course. The PS4 UI is also slow as hell. So much lag.

Biv

The Red Dead conversation goes back to one of my fundamental issues when people talk about games. Gameplay is king. Red Dead's gameplay is awful. It's game mechanic masturbation. Your story means nothing to me unless the gameplay is good. If stripping out the story would result in a bad game...it's a bad game.

Will Hahn

Hey guys, You both make wonderful content and this was a wonder episode. Well done.

LastStandMedia
>>32221920

I don't know what your question was, but it's entirely possible it's in next week's episode. If not, understand most people's questions are snubbed every week. =)

LastStandMedia
>>32227063

I don't have any lag! But then again, this is like people telling me they can use the PlayStation Store with no issues.

LastStandMedia
>>32228492

Gameplay is often king, but I think there are too many examples for it to be a universal truth.

Zack E

I’m not sure if I think you gave a great response to the Chinese money question, yet I’m unsure how to properly word my issues with it. You don’t want Chinese money flowing in all of these companies. Yet you say , and yes I know this is all hypothetical, that you’d be willing to take money if it reached a certain threshold. And you don’t blame those who take the money, but those we don’t understand what it means to take the money. Ok...but you are saying if you were in such a position you would take the money. But would it be ok for your company to take such money because you understand what it means? I don’t know, just sounds like you’re talking in circles in a way. You don’t like this occurring, yet you can’t do your part to help prevent it when it comes (hypothetically) to your company? If this is your attitude, then how can there possibly be any meaningful criticism about companies taking such money? Anyway, this was an interesting episode. I think one of these type of episodes maybe every 6 months or a year or so would be really nice, and help prevent the podcast audience becoming from developing into a sort of an echo chamber.

Anonymous

Colin, what is wrong with you? I didn't think that any of your views were heinous enough to write in for the episode, but I can't stand by silently with this. The PS4 UI is a horrible cluttered, slow mess of a screen! While the PS3's UI isn't perfect (more sorting options would be nice, and deleting streaming services that I don't use would be a god send) but it's so nice compared to the PS4's UI. I was so disappointed to discover that the PS4 and Vita had shunned the simplistic elegance of the XMB, and I only hope that the PS5 will ditch the PS4's UI for something more akin to what we had before in the PS3/PSP

Cannonball_Jones

Seriously glad you did this episode, it takes a lot of courage and willingness to put your pride on the shelf to do this topic and legitimately take it somewhat seriously. I’m that caricature you’ve joked about for years that’s screaming in my car whenever you talk about how long Kojima takes to make his games. I think there’s a portion of your audience that means well and has honest criticism but is afraid to give it and be lumped in with the people that argue with you hatefully. This is a really amazing way to ensure your fans can have healthy disagreements. This is a great subject and one of the best + episodes yet!

Anthony Longo

I have to agree with the gentleman who said Horizon isn’t a great game. It’s way over hyped. The facial expression and features are jarring. And the fun factor is low. Also , it should be Bloodborne.

SteelChevron

I remember watching IGN growing up can't say I'm a fan of what they have become

The Rose Experience
>>32232595

What is disconcerting about Horizon's facial capture compared to every other game that attempts to capture facial realism? I'm honestly curious as I play a lot of games and while I don't love the skew to realism Horizon's facial capture is right on par with some of the best in the space. Also, if you don't find fighting hordes of giant robotic dinosaurs in a myriad of ways fun I think we gotta question your idea of what fun is exactly.

Brett Carlson

Great episode. Colin I know your doing this JRPG challenge and all and I must make a suggestion. Now you may already have the games picked out so maybe you play this game a year from now, but Eternal Sonata is a must play from the PS3 era. I am currently playing it now through PS Now (which is working great) and man what a pleasant throwback to a bygone era of JRPG. I played this game when it launched on PS3 and got about 10 hour in. Always loved it but my house got robbed and my Playstation along with it. So all these years I've thought about finally going through it front to back and what a treat. Now admittedly the traversal from point A to point B is fairly linear but it's the characters, story and combat that really make this game it's own. Such an obscure and deep story in a game you at first glance assume would be completely childish. The whole Polish composer Frederick Chopin angle is great. I dont want to say this game is underrated because it has an 80 on metacritic and I would say that's a fair assessment, but this game was criminally underplayed. So not only for Colin but anyone who sees this comment and enjoys JRPGs please give this one a shot.

Brandon Soto

People have been wanting an open-world Zelda game for a long time. But I agree, it shouldn’t be the series going forward. And with Link’s Awakening Remake, I don’t think it will be.

Brandon Soto

*Metroid Prime comes out* “This stinks! Metroid isn’t supposed to be 1st-person!”

Joey Rawlings

"You guys don't need a 7-hour podcast..." *Currently listening to the 4-hour Ep. 100 Knockback episode and noticed that recent Knockback episodes are 2.5-3 hours long. Bring it on. :)

Anonymous

Hey newly Virginian Colin and disappointingly Los Angelesian Chris! I gotta disagree/agree with your statement on consoles BECOMING iterative instead of having generations going forward. Generations ARE Iterative. Playstation has now had 5 iterations of varying power, the PSX, PS2, PS3, PS4, PS4 Pro, and soon the 6 being the PS5. Xbox had Xbox, Xbox 360, Xbox One and Xbox One X. They also had various slims and special editions in there, but those are the different levels of power. That is exactly what you said they will become. You used phones to indicate devices that release annually with a little more power and a slightly polished OS, but my Iphone 5 cant run the current version of my apps, and some apps stopped being supported and can't run on the current OS. That is console generations by another name. I think that going forward the generations will be labeled by year like cars, and when a game is released it will indicate the earliest year console that will run it, I.E. The Last of Us Part 12 will require the PS5 2022 or newer to run. The series X is already on track for this, but the idiots started with X, so there will be almost no rhyme or reason to the naming conventions moving forward (not really new for them though). Just had to get that of my chest after listening to that part. In review, I think your statements will hold true about the consoles becoming MORE iterative, but they already are iterative now.

Zach Brown

Your points on Red Dead Redemption II are, well, on point. Its critiques needs to heed the truth in your well-chosen words.

Ryan Zimm

I am with Chris when it comes to Horizon. The game is pretty to look at. But the gameplay always felt slow and clunky to me. But I finally figured out what I REALLY disliked about it. Ashley Birch's performance. I CAN'T STAND IT. Her delivery is so overly sincere. I can't really imagine a more boring protagonist.

MostlyCharlie

It does seem clear to me that Xbox is moving away from the traditional “console generation” product cycle, but I seriously hope that PlayStation does not follow suit. Even more, I hope they lean into the generation model and try to make each generation special and unique, maybe not to the extent of Nintendo where each gen has some new input gimmick, but they have this awesome stable of first party developers and brand recognition that includes sequential numbering for each system and it would be a shame if that gets lost in some more vague and varied approach to providing games through a service or some hardware agnostic platform. I love buying PlayStation hardware to play my PlayStation games, the same way I love buying Nintendo hardware to play my Nintendo games.

Your Boi Nicky V

Dunno about you guys but I really disagree with Chris saying we won't see a PS6. Sure, I expect PS5 to have various iterations but eventually there's gonna be a new console and a clean start. Games in 2030 aren't going to be compatible with a console from 2020. Great show anyway.

Luke Bernhard

Since we are on the disagreement episode, I have to disagree about a disagreement. You said after the discussion on Red Dead that it was the best game of the year. I 100% agree with that discussion with the exception of that - because God of War was perfect in literally every way. Gameplay, battle system, narrative. Perfect, all around.

Arquimedes Quintero II

Oh boy!, now THAT is the Chris I like to hear. It was so refreshing to hear him step away from his "whatever the hell"s to deliver an passionate and eloquent defense for his appreciation of Red Dead Redemption 2. It's great to hear him caring a little more. I like Chris a lot but when he sounds like he unplugged for a while and just doesn't care about much. I was pleasantly impressed with that. I hope to hear that more often.

Arquimedes Quintero II
>>32361998

In the narrative it isn't. There's a feeling of rushing it, like they took out a whole part of the game because those mood swings from Atreus are jarring. The game is amazing though. Nearly perfect.

LastStandMedia
>>32231344

I'm just being honest that if a Chinese entity offered me absurd amounts of money, I'd take it. That's neither right nor wrong. It's just a fact. I'm not a multi-national billion dollar conglomerate, so even if a Chinese entity did buy CLS, what kind of power would they have? It's certainly hypocritical. I'm just being candid.

LastStandMedia
>>32232481

I had fun with this episode! What makes Sacred Symbols run is our relationship with our audience. If you have something to say, by all means, say it!

LastStandMedia
>>32323909

Okay, they're iterative per se, but they're separate products. That's like saying a 486 and a Pentium III were iterative. They're separate machines.

LastStandMedia
>>32335785

RDR2's shortcomings are real, but what it does right is so monumental that it doesn't even really matter what it gets wrong.

LastStandMedia
>>32359675

I think we're about to see the Big Three really go in separate directions for the very first time. They can't all win...

LastStandMedia
>>32361627

The question is whether you'll need anything more than a controller and an Internet connection to play games in 2030.

LastStandMedia
>>32366290

I don't get this argument. Chris cares. If he didn't, he wouldn't do the show. He's becoming more confident, and I think that's what you're seeing.

Ed White

My problem with Horizon was constantly having to resort to the weapon wheel and craft ammo when taking on the bigger enemies. I hated this mechanic. Just so clunky.

Nathan Henderson

We always go through this cycle of "this is the last generation" and although I understand where you are coming from, the stagmented state of the phone market does not, in any shape or form, indicate a similar move for the gaming industry. Phones are, and always have been pretty limited in scope, at least from the iPhone 4 on-wards. Apart from fingerprint readers becoming standard, there's very few things that have come out on newer phones that increase the scope of what we do on them, outside of niche tech and a slightly better camera than the last. Games on the other-hand are constantly increasing in scope, especially after 7 years, and at a certain point a hardware upgrade is a necessity, shedding the weight of older hardware and taking full advantage of what's new. I think these next few years we'll see more cross-gen games than we've ever seen before but it's only going to last up until a point. In about 7-8 years, games will come out that will struggle on the PS5, and the idea that this will be remedied with constant, tiny iterations such as phones is absurd - nobody's going to buy a PS5 then shell out that same amount of money for a slightly better version in about 4 years, at least not in a way that's financially viable, not in a way that doesn't alienate those who buy PS5's. This cycle of shedding the past to make way for the new with a new $499 box every 8 years with games that simply can't exist on what came before is honestly the only way I can see consumers going out of their way to keep up. If the market is flooded with new iterations such as phones, fewer people are going to buy in and the scope of the games will suffer as a result. Every new console sets a proverbial ceiling for what's possible with games over the next 7-8 years and eventually devs start to reach that and will require more powerful hardware to boot, taking advantage of new tech that comes out over time. The massive leap in graphics has for the most part gone (at least it will once hardware ray tracing becomes standard), but there's always new, emerging tech that will forever push game developers forward to create experience that cannot be had on older hardware, and consoles will need to keep up in a sustainable way. So unless consoles are somehow upgradable, or we just toss the box aside in favor of an all-streaming, separated future (a terrifying notion), I don't see how this current 'buy a new box every 7 years' model is going to change, certainly not towards the way phones are released.

Roman Caraman

I am perpetually behind on the episodes, but I am listening to this one now and I totally agree with Alex Bolton about Wii having the best UI. It is the most intuitive and it helps that it is similar to a phone with the game icons being akin to app icons. Reordering the icons and moving them to different pages is easy and pretty intuitive. I don’t hate the UI of any of the current consoles though.

Anonymous

I really dislike how the game price argument is presented. I understand you guys take into account inflation and game scope but never factor bigger factors imo, that is, almost all games have different season passes now days which is ~20-60 dollars, the fact digital markets have boomed meaning the retailer cut is no longer a big detractor, the fact most if not ALL multiplayer component have MTX or at the very least something to buy and thats not counting any editions that might come with the game just in general. And finally that overall shift of the industry has moved to make games they can continually make money on. EA used to make Dead Space, Ubisoft Splinter Cell, Activision experimented with Prototype. Now all those 3 publishers won’t make a game that can’t sell MTX; and if they do is in rare occasions due to pushback and assurance that the game will do good (star wars). The only way I would agree to an increase in price is that publishers would stop this trend of making live services and make more games, but sorry I have no trust in big publishers. Just my 2 cents and love the podcast

LastStandMedia
>>32399125

My argument is merely that we won't be playing on boxes in a decade. I would love to be wrong, because I'm a traditionalist. But... I think the writing is on the wall. We will see!

LastStandMedia
>>32431880

It was intuitive, but as I remember, you had to use the Wiimote, right? You couldn't use the Pro Controller or turn the controller sideways. Could be wrong, but I vaguely remember being annoyed by this...

LastStandMedia
>>32439315

Yes, but the season pass content isn't made for free. So while they make a nice profit on them (just as they aim to on the game), the content isn't being manufactured out of whole cloth. Money in, money out...

Ed White

Colin, I might be alone here but I genuinely think the "Challenge us" segment is good enough to become a permanent feature for patrons. The Patreon model allows you to engage with a smaller more dedicated pool of listeners so the mailbag format is a great fit. And you have chatted a lot of shit over the years and continue to do so, so the content will never dry up. I think you're on to a killer podcast format here.

Anonymous

Hey Colin, Just a heads up that the audio on this episode cuts out for a few seconds from 1:03:00 - 1:03:03.

Anonymous

Hey col, Where can I find the RSS feeds to the Patreon exclusive episodes? Of ss, knockbak, fireside chats

NeO JD

The old Xbox 360 UI with the blades was the best gaming UI I’ve seen. Simple and I loved how themes had 4 images, 1 for each blade. All the AC Odyssey hate hurts my heart 😄 The main story isn’t long and the rest is just as good and optional. Really surprised that Chris thinks RDR2 has the best narrative in gaming. Part of the reason I stopped playing besides the tediousness in the gameplay is because none of the characters felt redeemable or good. The rare game that made me want to stop playing as a white knight and just kill everyone. I’d kill the whole gang if they’d let me 😄 I don’t think prices of games go up but if they do, it wouldn’t hurt as bad as long as they have sales like they do now. Plus, we already know discs are still gonna be a thing so the used market will live on. I don’t think consoles will ever end. They’ll always be the easiest, smallest lag way to play. Probably get another console refresh like the Pro before PS6.

LastStandMedia
>>32530511

Hi! Login to Patreon on a browser, and you'll see it on the front page of CLS' Patreon. It also be in your Benefits tab. =)

LastStandMedia
>>32537155

I'm with Chris on the narrative. It's truly one of the all-time greats; no doubt in my mind about that!

Roman Caraman
>>32431880

That is possible, I don’t know that I ever tried to control it without pointing at the screen. If you couldn’t control the Wii with other control schemes then that is a really bad design choice.

Kam Wallis

Probably already noted here, but the Switch joy-con and Pro controllers definitely have a sync button, so maybe Chris is more blind than first thought? Keep up the great work though guys, plus, we all know the Vita had/has the worst console UI...