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Fireside Chats, Episode 58: Getting Political With Laci Green (Patreon)

Published:
2018-10-10 16:01:01
Edited:
2019-01-08 23:47:55
Imported:
2022-01

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Content

Laci Green is a popular YouTuber, sex educator, feminist, and author. She's also a personal friend of mine. I initially invited Laci to Santa Monica for a Fireside Chat about her new book (Sex Plus: Learning, Loving, and Enjoying Your Body), and intended on discussing sexuality, feminism, and all the rest. Instead, though, we had a wide-ranging political conversation, touching on topics from the deeply divisive Kavanaugh SCOTUS confirmation and the fight between pro-choice and pro-life elements, to the role of crime in America and our radically different views on the death penalty. Buckle in for a civil conversation between a liberal and a conservative. Unheard of, I know.

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Comments

Jason Stafford

*fastens his seatbelt* Welp, here we go! Time to be challenged. No, seriously, I like Laci quite a bit (and find her very attractive), but I always draw up a little in anticipation of discussions like these, probably because I can't actually participate and occasionally have an angle or perspective that's not addressed. Should be a fun ride home. Haha! Thanks Colin!

Andrew

7/10 too much politics

tejotl

Trying to be respectful but those views on Kavanagh are just insane '3 people accused with no evidence so he can't take this position'. Borderline terrifying that ppl have the capacity to hold that view.

tejotl
>>16204262

And to the question 'what is enough?' How about a hint of evidence?

Anonymous

I’m glad you had her on. Very curious to see where this goes.

Tyson Williams

“She’s thicc” should be the tagline for the book

Anonymous

Fucking excellent conversation on Kavanaugh. With regards to Laci's point "Which is worse: putting a rapist on the supreme court or denying an innocent man from sitting on the supreme court?" I would say option A is worse at face value. The problem there is that the ripple effect that option B causes could be MUCH worse. I'm never one to give power to people when I feel it is unwarranted. Giving people the power to stop things they don't like just by accusing people of rape is a massive amount of power. I don't know for a fact that it would be severely abused but I'm not sure I'm willing to take that risk. Still, Laci's point did not fall on deaf ears. Sexual crimes do seem to be a special case that is particularly hard to prove so it is plausible that they need a different standard. Unfortunately until we have a standard we can agree on I think we should stick to what we already know. Shout out to both of you for listening to (and more importantly understanding) the other side.

Craig Carter

I’m with you on this one Colin. I know regrettable things happen to people.. but I dated a girl once who accused a man of molesting her when she was 13 or 14. One night we were in bed and she started crying out of the blue then she just spewed our that she lied about all of it. She was just seeking attention because life has shaped her into that type of person. She accused him of it and the guy has to deal with that the rest of his life even though it’s not true. I was sexually abused myself by a family member when I was 3 or 4.. and even with that being said.. ya gotta ask for hard questions and not run completely off emotions.. just my two cents I guess

LastStandMedia
>>16205543

If you're talking blind justice, they're equally as bad, because they're both miscarriages of justice. If you're talking moralistically -- which she was -- then obviously it's worse to sit a rapist on SCOTUS. She actually gave me quite a bit to think about with her retorts, and though I'm pretty steadfast in the views I expressed regardless, I'm glad that I had to hear what she had to say.

LastStandMedia
>>16205770

It's such a dynamic and complicated issue. And I respect that. I just don't want our society devolving into a permanent state of he said/she said, with no due process and no presumption of innocence. One of the greatest legal precedents in the lengthy history of western civilization is that the accuser in a crime must prove the crime.

Jason Stafford

I'll always be split on this stuff. I was sexually molested repeatedly from age 6-7 and I'll never forget any of it. I've also had a dear friend lose 2 years of his life to a false accusation. Statistics be damned, it is a possibility. So yeah, neither side is a good place to be. And Amen, Colin. If we do nothing else, we MUST preserve "innocent until proven guilty" and due process. Are there any of us in this climate that haven't done some dumb shit that could ruin our lives if we govern by he said/she said?

LastStandMedia
>>16206824

I'm truly sorry to hear that that happened to you. It's terrible. But, yes: Due process must be protected. And the idea, ultimately, that ruination can come to a person because "it's not a court of law" is fucking wild. This is the same argument I've been making about social media banning people. Sure, they have the right. But fundamental in our American souls should be that silencing speech -- or, in this case, painting "guilty" on a person's back with virtually no evidence and a vociferous denial of the accusations -- is paramount. We have to keep things fair, on the level, repeatable, and blind.

Jimmy Champane

Listening to both of you gave me a lot to think about. I think for the most part I come down on your side of the equation, but I have empathy and respect for where Laci is coming from. Either way this is something that's extremely complicated to both think and talk about. I think everyone should commit to taking the time to do so.

BM

Great Fireside Chat's episode, even though I cannot entirely agree with Laci on many points, it's still nice to hear a different voice. I understand that it's hard to prosecute rape, but we should not give such an easy to abuse power to the victim. I feel politics would be the worst place to introduce this type of thinking, considering the majority of people in politics are such scumbags and would throw anyone under a bus to move up or use any dirty tactic to get an advantage. I feel this is trying to find a quick fix when the answer is, unfortunately, going to take some time or may have taken effect already and we don’t see it because all these politicians are so old and it feels like nothing is changing.

Domenico Smarto

Really good episode Colin. The judge Kavanaugh allegations was a great conversation. The reason I side with you is because of the lack of corroborating evidence. I see where Laci is coming from, I agree that we should show empathy for the person coming forward. But where I had a problem was she seemed to be treating him as guilty until proven innocent which you talked about from social media. I also just can’t get behind of the idea of just believing the allegation with no corroboration. I encourage people to go read about Cristiano Ronaldo’s rape allegation. Look how much corroborated evidence is in that case compared to Kavanaugh’s.

Will Caldwell

Glad you had her on. Disagree with a fair amount of what she said but these types of conversations are very important.

Alex Quantz

Great, thought provoking episode man. I really appreciate your respect for your guests.

Brogan Wassell

The 2 percent number is not true so I would call her out on that but just saying.

CTE

"By three different people". Only one of those people had any validity. This is so messy but good for you to talk about it with someone else. "What does it take to start taking this seriously". I have no idea how to agree with her. She is still just saying that you have to believe them and it's okay to be unfair in the cases where the allegations actually are false. How can you say that he will be fine? I could never live with myself if I was charged for something like this. There is no winner here but I still can't accept that an allegation should be treated as truth.

CTE

I'm generally pro-choice but I've never heard a pro-life person that fits the description of what she describes (and I know a lot of pro-life people personally). Maybe these movements did exactly as she described and started focusing on too much (as many groups like this do), but pro-life people I know are just disgusted by the act of abortion. My wife is about to give birth and guess what, I think that too. There is no way you can say it's not incredibly horrible to kill a kid in there once you have seen it grow, whether you are a father or mother. I personally just don't think banning it works at this point...

Peter Campbell

Enjoyed the episode. I'm with Laci on the Kavannagh situation. It's too important a position to allow anyone you could reasonably doubt. While not proven, there was enough reasonable doubt on Kavannagh (and he would still have a powerful job) that it should have gone to nominating another candidate to defend the impartiality of the Supreme court. Now its gonna be suspect for a lot of people and that's a bad place for it to be. I don't think his ambitions over what he expected out of his career is as important as the supreme court, nor are any partisan politics.

LastStandMedia
>>16207682

I have empathy and respect for her stance, too, and she gave me a great deal to think about.

LastStandMedia
>>16208141

The unfortunate reality is that politics infest everything, and it seems to never have a positive outcome. With nuance, and the ability to see (and seek out) the gradient, we'd all be far better off. But alas.

LastStandMedia
>>16212412

I think what's most important is that we follow a predictable order of operations: Crime allegedly occurs, victim makes accusation, supports it with evidence, defendant defends, an impartial jury renders a verdict. It's simple.

LastStandMedia
>>16212980

I honestly don't know any pro-lifers like she described either, but I must admit that, growing up in the northeast, people aren't as militant about those beliefs, even from the Catholic perspective.

LastStandMedia
>>16213014

Even if you disagree with me, I'm glad that you got something out of the show! I thought Laci did a great job.

Adam Niksch

First of all, great episode! I love the episodes where you are able to have civil conversations with people of opposing viewpoints. It gives me hope that we’re not entirely screwed. Laci seems like a very genuine woman who cares a great deal about her passions. Please have her back on for part 2! I used to be in the pro life camp myself (changed around the same time you did for similar reasons), but I always was one of the pro lifers that DID push for comprehensive sex education and easy access to contraception. Tell her those kinds of people do exist! But, one argument I’ve heard consistently brought up in the Kavannagh/Ford case is what does she stand to gain from doing this. I don’t think this argument is valid. Speaking hypothetically now (as in I’m not accusing anyone of actually doing this in this particular case), but with something this high profile she’s guaranteed to make a large sum of money, be it through a book deal or some other form of media (should she want to in this hypothetical situation). She also now has a big foot in the door to run for any political office. I’d say that’s something gained from all this. Maybe that’s a little too tin foily though. I agree with you about both outcomes of the case being morally reprehensible with regards to blind justice. It’s why the truth is so important. But we may never know what the truth is, and that’s unfortunate.

There’s No I in LLC

Well without due process you get the Gulag. People prosecuted for not being able to "completely prove their innocence. If you ever read it you see how politics like the ones on display devolve into a childish, albeit very dangerous new norms.

Anonymous

Laci really seemed to vilify the pro-life side. That's what I hate most about being pro-life. That to the pro-choice side I look like a bad guy that wants to take away a woman’s right to choose. That’s not my intent. I live in South Louisiana, so I’m surrounded by pro-life people. None of them are going around with the intent to take away anyone's rights. They’re simply trying to save what they consider to be an innocent life. It often makes me question whether it’s even possible to be pro-life and, at the same time, not want to take away women’s rights.

Matt H

Laci is very knowledgeable and I respect her views. She is a very accomplished thinker! However I don’t appreciate how she portrays her opposition sometimes. For example, she said that she doesn’t believe that the pro life movement is about abortion, but about controlling women, and then proceeded to attack the movement based on her opinion of it. I have no doubt that some pro lifers just want to tell other people how to live their lives. However, I disagree with the tactic of issuing a motive to a broad group of people and then attacking them based on the motive that you yourself assigned them. Why not argue the ideas themselves instead? I enjoyed her perspective on the death penalty though!

Anonymous

Great episode, I think the difficult thing about the Ford/Kavanaugh situation is that it’s victim of a time past when the wide variety of tools available to us now for corroboration weren’t back then. That if the same case took place more recently, while there might still be some nuance, it would be easier to go I know went the party, it was here and then because it was a FB event, or you can see who attended via the selfies that were taken or the invite list, here are messages, and how your photos now come with digital time stamps, and so on. Things are only going to become more tightly woven with Tech which makes things for the future look better and easier in this regard, so I think we’ll see less grey instances, it’s just unfortunate for situations prior like this one. I don’t sympathise any less, I just can’t put aside due process. That’s kind of the way I see it anyway, really enjoyed the ep though Colin.

Koray Savas

This might just be my favorite Fireside Chat. Great convo!

Anonymous

I really enjoyed this episode and the open, honest discussion. I hope you do a second episode with Laci quickly and continue the discussion where you left off.

Joey Finelli

What a delightful conversation you've had here. I agree with both of you on many things. I am 100% with you on prison. also... 100% of pedophiles should be locked up for life once caught.

George

There is so, so much I have to say about Laci’s take on Bret Kavanaugh and the current political climate regarding sexual assault/harassment allegations that I do not even remotely have the time to articulate here, but I must address the unfounded ‘2% of rape allegations are false’ stat I see thrown around endlessly on Twitter, in various podcasts and unfortunately by Laci here. Not only does the ‘2%’ number seem to originate only from one source that is particularly questionable (<a href="https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2018/03/05/discredited_sex_assault_research_infects_us_legal_system_136423.html)," rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2018/03/05/discredited_sex_assault_research_infects_us_legal_system_136423.html),</a> but even ‘2%’ a gross misrepresentation of what the source actually states (<a href="https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/how-common-are-false-rape-charges-really-jason-richwine/)." rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/how-common-are-false-rape-charges-really-jason-richwine/).</a> It is simply either massively ignorant or massively deceitful to state conclusively that ‘2% of rape allegations are false’. The truth of the matter is that we simply don’t know. But this factoid is readily asserted with such ubiquity that I too blindly assumed it was accurate. I was increasingly disturbed to learn how I had be deceived by popular belief the more I researched into the origin of this stat. Correcting this misconception in the mainstream honestly seems like an insurmountable task. I am completely defeated. Jack Dorsey has a moral obligation to delete Twitter. That is the only conclusion I can derive from this disaster. Twitter (and Facebook) has facilitated the free flow of misinformation far more than it has facilitated our enlightenment, and I personally have no hope for the future of honest discourse.

Jason Stafford

Well, I was right. This was challenging as hell. At least I learned some things. I learned that: I'm insane for my religious beliefs. As a pro-life person in my heart, I only care about keeping women in bondage. As a survivor myself, I should always be believed even though I'm human and just as capable of being motivated or used for political purposes and that there's no such thing as an false accusation of rape even though I've witnessed it firsthand. That rape is a special crime that requires no proof and doesn't matter that it's easily weaponized. It's all good though. I'm not mad and it's good to feel some pain because it makes you tougher and helps you have compassion for others. Just to be clear here, there's no love lost, I just had to get out a box of band-aids this morning. :D I'm also super impressed with you, Colin. I tend to be fairly levelheaded, but I know I wouldn't have been able to maintain my composure as well as you. Thank you.

Lockmort

This was very interesting to listen to, even though I disagreed with Laci on most points. She was a bit too narrow minded on a few issues, but all in all it was a great conversation/discussion and I'm glad you stood your ground. I wish it would have gone on longer, but hope you'll do a second one with her. Fantastic job!

Jeshua Anderson

Wow... I'm a liberal, sexual assault surviving black man and I couldn't disagree with Laci more on almost each topic. However it was a good listen. Keep up the great work Colin.

desperateLuck

I think Laci was pretty spot on with her argument against the death penalty. I think it has reverberating effects throughout a society when the government says that it will do everything possible to avoid killing its people, even if they are vile, disgusting, and don't deserve it. There is very little to be gained by killing even the worst person, especially when the benefits of the alternative are a society wide stance against vengeful disregard of any life. Even the worst ones. Also the practical arguments against it are pretty much bulletproof. All the other stuff I basically disagreed with.

Ryan Taylor

This was a great, civil discussion which is rare these days. I couldn’t. Disagree with Laci more but do empathise with her position. I think of as a culture we start to put rape / sexual assault on a different legal pedestal than other crimes, that is a slippery slope that will be abused and before you know it, every crime has different requirements for conviction. I did take from Laci though that in these cases we jump straight to the legal / political aspect of these cases and do sometimes forget the human element and I think that’s something I can be more mindful of going forward, I just don’t think that outweighs the need for proper judicial policies and an ‘innocent until proven guilty’ mindset. Great, thought provoking episode!

LastStandMedia
>>16215150

While I suppose there could technically be "things to gain" from her lying, I guess I look at it more through the lens of the downside being so huge, that lying simply wouldn't be worth it. I nonetheless think it's awesome that you enjoyed the episode, and Part 2 will surely happen. =)

LastStandMedia
>>16215849

I certainly took umbrage with that characterization as well, as I know a shit ton of pro life people (including many women), and they have no interest in "controlling women." It's a shitty narrative, but she's certainly entitled to feel how she wants!

LastStandMedia
>>16220455

She gave me a great deal to think about with the death penalty, though I'm simply of the mind that I have no interest in rehabilitating hardened, violent criminals.

LastStandMedia
>>16221793

Yeah. I mean, I cannot and will not deny that Dr. Ford was probably assaulted, and that Kavanaugh may very well be the culprit. But if you can't prove it because of time and circumstance, that's unfortunately incredibly relevant. Because you really cannot make exceptions to due process, or it unravels.

LastStandMedia
>>16224087

I'd love to get a second episode in before the end of the year. We'll see how it plays out!

LastStandMedia
>>16226089

Yeah. I've got no patience, tolerance, or time for the Reform Pedophiles thing. Others can hold that opinion if they want. I think they should be castrated and thrown in prison.

LastStandMedia
>>16226434

I can appreciate your pessimism, truth be told. It sometimes feels like all is truly lost.

LastStandMedia
>>16226688

I'm not interested in attacking my guests. I want to hear them out and keep an open mind. That's what it's all about. I disagree with Laci deeply and categorically about her stances on Kavanaugh, the pro-life question, etc., but at the end of the day, I'm not interested in berating her or telling her she's wrong. She's my friend.

LastStandMedia
>>16239094

I'm glad you found agreement with Laci! I think the republic sends a more powerful signal when it gives everyone equal and inalienable rights, and then comes down incredibly hard on those that fall out of line in egregious, violent, and destructive ways.

LastStandMedia
>>16239897

The slippery slope is exactly what I fear. Fact is, you shouldn't take anything at face value. Proof is necessary. Even if something happened, if it cannot be proven, then he said/she said devolves into madness. It's not a good precedent. I'm glad you enjoyed the episode. Thank you for listening!

Anonymous

I'm glad you talked with Laci. I've been looking forward to this conversation (as I assumed it was inevitable). I relate very much to her as someone who will never never ever ever be a conservative, but still gets annoyed when our "side" loses sight of what's important and makes much ado about nothing.

Anonymous

I found two of Laci's arguments most curious. First, her inconsistent use of technology. Birth control and abortions (two things only widely available because of new technologies) are righteous and important parts of allowing women to be self actualized. And then a fetus/baby is only a life if it can make it without the use of technology. Outside of this inconsistency, the main flaw I have with this argument is that a child is not fully independent for several years after birth. So if we use true natural independence as our guide it would seem that children under the age of 4 should be subject to the same lesser life status.

Anonymous

The second is her idea that pedophiles can be rehabilitated. I am not in disagreement with this position necessarily, especially as we talk about people with those desires who speak up instead of acting out, but I thought the conservative/religious idea that someone could be rehabilitated for a sexual desire or bent was anathema to the left.

Anonymous

Thank you Laci for coming on the show and speaking your mind. You are fascinating and your thoughtful explanations help me to empathize with people with very different backgrounds then my own.

Anonymous

Great chat, but I really don't like that they both (I believe) used the word "rape" when talking about Kavanaugh. What he is accused of is not rape. It is sexual assault.

Anonymous

Colin you mentioned you backed out of writing a book, we have to hear the story behind that sometime!

Anonymous

Great episode! I have been looking forward to a fireside chat with Laci, and this did not disappoint. I never thought of the pro-choice movement being more about controlling sexuality, and while I feel Laci's opinion on it is a bit hyperbolic, there is some truth to it. It doesn't seem fair to be against both contraception and abortion.

Michal Dudic

you know, it always bothered me how the left preaches empathy but seems to do nothing but cast judgement. I'm sorry to say that this episode only cemented that notion in me. I want to feel with these people but I just can't bring myself to do it, something about their rhetoric puts me off.

Tyler Bello

Good episode but man Laci was so bias... so the man if he didn't do anything should just get his cast as supreme court thrown out if he is innocent... are we not going to talk about how ford lied. She only thought about stuff from the woman's point of view... hard to listen to at points..

Ian (616Entertainment)

I really, really enjoyed this one. I like Laci’s sentiment of determining which is worse, giving a possible rapist more power or telling him he has to just keep the job he has, but she totally lost me on reforming pedophiles. Sorry, I can’t be a part of that shit at all. I realize many pedophiles were abused when they were young, and they don’t want to be what they’ve become, and I may sound horrible for saying this, but that’s the hand you were dealt. I am sorry about it, but it’s true. Not everyone who was abused turned around to cause abuse themselves, so why did you? I can’t find enough sympathy to offer my hand to reform them. Who is going to reform the child you hurt? Ugh, thinking about it fucks up my day. Anyway, great episode. Looking forward to her return.

Marc Boggio

Oh my, that was a challenging one - and I mean that in the best way possible. It’s fantastic to see people on two sides of the aisle (even two sides of the moderate aisle) having such a civil conversation that seemed to at the very least, be striving to be productive. Laci seems like a really sweet person and I look forward to reading her book, which I ordered the moment I finished the episode (if she sees an Amazon.ca order is going to Petawawa Ontario, that’s almost certainly me 😂)

Marcus Brown

I really enjoyed this video alot. Laci is awesome and very misunderstood like yourself. Can't wait for a part 2.

Bryan Finck

Great show Colin. I admire Lacy for her convictions and strength of her beliefs. I have a problem with her take on the Kavanaugh issue. One of the most disturbing things of this whole mess was how quickly people were willing to completely throw away due process and "innocent until proven guilty". Without that, we are North Korea or Soviet Russia or any other country where you can be jailed for no reason with no recourse. Also, her stance that rape and sexual assault should have a different standard of proof than other crimes is a scary precedent. I was happy to hear Colin discuss that this could lead to more crimes being "reduced" in the need of proof. Like giving up liberties and allowing parts of our free speech to be censored, that may be great for you if the party you align with is in power, but what happens when the other side takes power inevitably? You have given them license to take away something that you do perhaps agree with or hold dear. The same could happen with the threshold for crimes if we allow due process and innocent until proven guilty to be eroded, even for something so heinous as rape.

Luke Tucker

Great conversation. I was most struck with how emotion can often lead to loss of objectivity. On the other hand it can bring to light the gravity and importance of a subject. I definitely fall more in line with you Colin in that I try to view things from a rational and consistent approach that looks at the whole picture on issues. But I did find myself thinking more critically when listening to Laci’s passion on certain issues. We live in a society of nuance and complication, yet the trend of information is a black or white headline. My big takeaway was that, especially in politics, we need logical thinkers with a moral center. If your job is to make decisions and policies that affect the country, your conclusions should be based upon all available facts. Emotion and passion should be paramount if you are a lawyer attempting to prove either side of a case. You should impress upon people the importance of the stakes and provoke thought. Unfortunately what we have often feels like little more than “my team is better than your team” driving everything. I appreciate that you are able to have two-sided conversations in this era of “hot takes”. We need more of that in the world.

LastStandMedia
>>16245149

I'm glad I talked to her, too! I felt it was a fruitful and worthwhile conversation, and I'm looking forward to the sequel.

LastStandMedia
>>16246091

I agree that that's an inconsistency, though I certainly wouldn't have thought of that in the moment.

LastStandMedia
>>16246174

I respect that people want to have this conversation, but I would never be for that level of rehabilitation.

LastStandMedia
>>16252013

That's totally fair, and I think I qualified myself once or twice to note that we're talking about allegations of sexual assault that didn't amount to rape. (Though, he was accused of rape by another, far less reliable woman.)

LastStandMedia
>>16257696

Yeah, I agree that you can't be against both. I don't see what the point of being against contraception is. It's strange.

LastStandMedia
>>16260506

Well, at least you got SOMETHING out of the episode. LOL. Thank you for listening, nonetheless.

LastStandMedia
>>16310324

I understand your perspective. In trying to put myself in the shoes of the voiceless, I can easily understand their concerns. The thing for me, though, is blind justice and consistency. Ultimately, that's all that matters.

LastStandMedia
>>16310647

I'm wish you, to an extent. Those elements of society should be permanently cast out, not embraced.

LastStandMedia
>>16349516

That's exactly why justice MUST be blind. It absolutely has to be. There are certain protocols that need to be followed (like an accuser making an accusation and the defendant confronting the accuser), and due process, of course, is the key to it all. We have to remain strong, and follow our brains over our hearts in this regard.

LastStandMedia
>>16396724

Very well said. I'm glad that you had a chance to listen to the episode, and that it resonated with you. =)

Jason Stafford
>>16257696

If I had to guess, I'd say it was based on a flawed interpretation of Genesis 38:9. Catholics (and most Christians) misinterpret this as meaning "every sperm is sacred" when the whole story actually has more to do with justice and not mistreating widows.

Wag

Hey Colin, I’m 100% with you on making contraception more readily available. I think the hypocrisy of many religious folks regarding contraception has been damaging and this from a person who considers himself religious. It’s one thing to hold up the teachings of the bible as the “gold standard” and another thing to recognize that we’ll all fall short of that standard. I have two daughters and I’ll absolutely be paying for their birth control when the time comes. That’s not an endorsement for them to be promiscuous, its just a hedge against the realities of growing up. I do think that promiscuity is inherently a bad thing (for men as well as women) and hope that my girls do save themselves for marriage. I can’t force them to make that decision and I am, generally, against abortion. Your twelve-week window on abortion is exactly the same as mine. Outside of that 12-week window in cases where the health of the mother is in jeopardy seems like a reasonable compromise. There is little doubt in my mind that science will get to the point of being able to sustain a human life at the point of conception in an artificial womb, so the idea that it’s not a life holds no water for me. Still, given the sad realities of the day, twelve weeks seems a reasonable compromise.

LastStandMedia
>>16416365

Truthfully, the more I thought about Laci's specific argument about technology versus viability, the more I figured that the argument would fall apart in the (probably near) future, when, as you said, it could all be artificial. I like your stance on birth control, and on your own daughters' agency. I think a lot of it has to do with nurture, honestly.

Peter Mark

Regarding the Kavanaugh situation, and more broadly rape accusations as a whole, I think Laci's argument is shaky at best. To start, I don't like Kavanaugh, as he has no respect for the 4th Amendment, so know that I'm not coming at this from a tribal side. The 2% false rape stat is a garbage stat. The "accepted concensus" is ~2-10% of claims are false, but the study she goes by was not done accurately, the questioners decided whether or not the person was raped. When you dig into the study, most of the women didn't feel they had been raped or even assaulted. Also, how could you possibly know what number is actually false. Regarding Ford not wanting to go public, doesn't he have the right to face his accuser, esp. in regards to such a heinous crime? As far as her having nothing to gain, she's now a hugely (in)famous name, being featured on the cover of Time magazine and getting ~800k from a GoFundMe, not a small sum. I know she also received death threats, but what about the ones leveled at his wife and daughters? Also, so he shouldn't sit on the SC bc of accusations, but he should still be a high level federal judge? If he's so credibly a rapist, how should he be free at all. And if Laci voted for Clinton, her arguments are even worse, since HC defended a rapist, whom she later admitted was guilty, and got him off charges, so a man accused can't be a SC justice, but someone getting actual rapists free and back on the streets to be able to rape on average 6 people should be the President?

LastStandMedia
>>16434943

That Clinton (Bill) continues to completely get away with what he did, with nary an eyelash batted by anyone on the left or in the mainstream media. It's totally hypocritical, and unreal.

Wag
>>16416365

Preventing unwanted pregnancies seems like the logical and obvious approach to reduce and ultimately eliminate the need for abortion. I understand the abstinence argument and advocate for it from a values perspective. However, it just isn't realistic to count on people strength of will in these matters. Access to various methods of birth control, even at young ages, just makes practical sense. The issue is much deeper, as you suggest with your nurture comment. Even if you've had good conversations about values and relationships and even the psychology behind the behavior I still feel better with that extra insurance that the pill offers over will-power or even condom use.

Wesley Rea

Interesting side conversations concerning abortion and even the age of the earth. As a young-earth creationist myself, I would, of course, disagree with your assessment about it being an "insane" idea (I believe that was the word that was used), but appreciate your willingness to talk about pretty much anything. If you're looking for learned theologians who are totally willing to discuss creationism, you should definitely research outside of the usual Answers in Genesis realm. Kenneth Gentry, for example, has written a lot about it and challenges a lot of Old Earth interpretations. Apologia Radio and CrossPolitic are also good groups to interact with on these issues (and you may find yourself agreeing with a lot of their political viewpoints). Obviously these arguments are within the framework of Christian orthodoxy, so they won't exactly be convincing to you, but they are sensible. Coming from a Reformed Christian background, my biases are towards theologians from the Reformed world; there are even some from the Reformed tradition who do have compelling arguments for an Old Earth and still remain orthodox, so it's not a complete echo chamber. Keep up the good work!

LastStandMedia
>>16493704

I would love, love, love to have a Young Earth Creationist on Fireside Chats, so if you know anyone, definitely let me know. =) Thanks for listening!