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Angel || 5x03 || Discussion (Patreon)

Published:
2023-05-20 18:30:01
Imported:
2023-05

Content

5x03: "Unleashed"
Next: Firefly 1x03 on Wed 5/24


Werewolfs are bacc! What an interesting monstery episode for this week. Interesting ride, getting to introduce Nina.

As well as some drama with Spike disappearing every few minutes 😳 I. Am. NERVOUS!!!


hope yall enjoyyyyy! :D

Files

Comments

Koz

I appreciate this episode as I am a werewolf enthusiast. And I particularly like the notion of different werewolf "breeds." ... Despite the fact that the first appearance of Oz Wolf had a lupine head and walked on two legs, subsequent episodes had the now humanoid headed Oz spending most of his time on all fours.

Mary Kate

This one is one of the ones I was referring to when I said this season was "uneven" lol. I think this one's boring, Nina's boring, her only qualities are being blonde and pretty, there are so many more interesting things we could be doing with the characters this final season!

Kongolor

I love the ending of this one, something very nostalgic about the gang just hanging out. It feels very warm, in a way we haven't seen for a very, very long time. Did feel like they let the fancy eating people society off pretty easy though, like, sure the dude you're giving to them betrayed you but uhhhh you didn't really punish them for trying to kidnap and eat a human being and now they apparently have the green light to do it again in the future to someone else? Like tonally them leaving the dude to get eaten and leaving them to keep doing their thing is only slightly less grim than Angel leaving the lawyers to get eaten in the basement by Darla and Dru in S2. Maybe they pay them another visit later, offscreen and shut them down permanently and the dude being left with them as punishment was just a convenient scare tactic for anyone else thinking of betraying them. "Yo they let the cryptozoology head get EATEN ALIVE!" rumors running amok might stop that.

Stargazer1682

It's kind of a shame they had John Billingsley turn out to be a bad guy and get bit in this episode; he's a great actor and it would have been fun to see him work alongside Fred. Although I guess I just want to see more Dr. Phlox, which might have overshadowed Fred a little...

SweetSummit
>>108959264

That's really only spoiling Star Trek: Enterprise, which probably won't be on the watch list for a while.

Richard Ashton

I quite like Nina - even if she is a blonde and therefore not a normal girl.

Stargazer1682
>>108959264

What are you talking about? John Billingsley is the guy who gets bit at the end of this episode. He played Dr. Phlox on Enterprise.

Stargazer1682
>>108959264

Yeah, first she has to watch TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager. Shame Star Trek ends with Enterprise and NOTHING comes after it... 😏

lurker1316

I think that line about a "different breed" of werewolf was just to kind of loosely explain why these wolves look so different from Oz and Veruca.

Henrik Holst
>>108957633

Perhaps Oz was simply confused on exactly which breed he was being a new wolf and all. I mean when he was a kitten our current cat often behaved more like a dog.

Stargazer1682

Fun fact, Jenny Mollen, who played Nina, is married to Jason Biggs.

Ron Fehr

Spike came back as a ghost. Does that mean that he came back 'wrong'? Just like Buffy?

Ron Fehr

When I first saw Jenny Mollen on here, she looked to me like a young Sharon Stone.

Greg Davis (YT-nobody you need to know)

In Buffy they never really jumped into what happed to people who changed into werewolves. Yeah we knew that it could make Oz more irritable and he'd kill people when he turned. We knew that eventually he eventually didn't need a full moon to change and that it became based on his emotions later, but they never really went through his perspective on his changes in his senses and stuff. We didn't explore how it would affect someone's family life when they became a werewolf. I mean OZ's family knew about werewolves and that his cousin was one before he scratched Oz. This time it's a family that knows nothing about the supernatural or werewolves. I feel like Whedon and the writers wanted one more chance to get a bit deeper with werewolves and that's mainly what this episode was about. Angel is able to cover topics as they happen to people that really have little to no interaction with the supernatural where as in Buffy it's a small town and the abnormal is a pretty regular occurrence. That's why I feel like this episode is very interesting and doesn't slow down the story at all. They still include dealing with things that are part of the main plot like trying to figure out what is the endgame for WR&H, characters dealing with the change, and Spike's Ghost Dad predicament. All while they do more of a deep dive into becoming a werewolf.

Ron Fehr
>>108959878

I know what you mean, but if you look at it from a time-line perspective, Enterprise came first.

Stargazer1682
>>108959264

Not necessarily. If you look at it from a from a nonlinear, non-subjective viewpoint, Star Trek Enterprise may in fact take place after First Contact and Voyager, but in the past... 🤔🤨

Ron Fehr

Although you couldn't really tell it was the same actor, since he wore prosthetics and makeup on Star Trek: Enterprise, John Billingsley has a recognizable voice for any fans of that show. If you don't know who I'm talking about, it's the doctor who ends up becoming the main course in the end.

Stargazer1682
>>108965448

I agree, Oz was a little bit of a missed opportunity to explore the implications of turning into a werewolf. I think there might have been plans to dig a little deeper into it in season 4, had Seth not wanted to leave. But like, just that fact that he was... (made? turned? infected?) by his cousin who *bit him has some depth that was quickly glossed over. If Jordy was just starting to get his adult teeth in, that means he'd be about 6 or 7 - so there's a 7 year old out there turning into a wolf each month too, besides Oz. Which sounds both adorable and terrifying. But there's also a deeper familial link; someone like him, with the same problem and ostensibly a similar need to be contained when he turned. This episode touches on one thing I've always wondered about, which is, why don't they just tranq them when they turn? Dr Royce says that wouldn't be a good idea long term - although I wish he would have said why, because barring a good explanation, it still makes the most amount of sense. If they're inclined towards violence as a werewolf and you lock them up, and presumably they're going to try and get out, they're bound to hurt themselves in the effort. So how could knocking them out for three nights a month be the worse alternative?

Ron Fehr
>>108965448

Your mention of a familial link brought to mind a Doctor Who episode, in which the possibility of it affecting Queen Victoria's descendants is suggested at the end.

Armando Antunez

Get off the BIKE and hop on the FRIKE! Come on, you know you want to 😉

ghostofdurruti
>>108965448

@Stargazer, my guess would be that over time the werewolves would develop tolerance for the tranq drugs with the result that they would need progressively more to knock them out. That could lead to a very dangerous situation if such a tranq-resistant werewolf ever escaped its cage.

Bruce Campbell

You should watch star trek on here idk what you have see. Or not but it would keep me subscribed for years to come

Stargazer1682
>>108965448

That's one thought that's occurred to me as a possibility, but if you figure it's only something in their system three times a month, would that really be something someone could build a tolerance to? And for that matter, would it necessarily need to be a "tranquilizer"? Could something mystical be used that would have a comparable effect, without it being cumulative or developing a resistance? A lot of the danger comes from what is apparent an enhanced strength, so could you give them something along the lines of what was used on Buffy for the cruciamentum - muscle relaxers and adrenal suppressants? But I have always felt they became lax with Oz, even without those measure (or especially without those measures) in that, by season 4 he's just locking himself up and no one is keeping guard during wolf moons. Like, the fact he did get out one night shows how stupid it was not to have someone keep an eye on him. At the same time, that's also a bit of an ask, to have to have someone on Oz duty every month; especially on the chance he did get out. It's one thing for someone like Buffy or Faith to do it, but what could Xander, Willow or even Giles hope to do if he got loose? They're best hop would be the tranq gun, which they proved they weren't consistently good shots with. Although they always used a big riffle, which seemed to unwieldy for them. In this episode we see how much better off Fred was with a more compact tran gun.

angelcakes

This episode is kind of plumped with (early) Buffy references (e.g. Wes saying it has happened before when talking about a military underground operation that'd kill demons, AI hanging out together in a very Scooby gang type way, werewolves,...)

Dusty

I forgot about Nina. I was thinking at the beginning, why does this look like Darla? lol

Ron Fehr

I guess werewolves are technically not demons, considering we got to know Oz, and now Nina. Both were pretty normal during the month, apart from the full moon cycle. Also, since they're not werewolves all the time, they would still have their souls in human form. Which begs the question, what happens to their souls during the werewolf episodes?

Eric C. Johnson
>>109065398

Anya has a soul even in demon form. D'Hoffryn mentions it in Selfless, "the life and soul of a vengeance demon." Some demons have souls. This is just my opinion, but I think from the show's rules, it's blatant that Lorne has a soul and Clem too, despite Whedon directly saying in an interview that Clem is soulless.

Ron Fehr
>>109069713

And Angel, in the self-named season 1 episode on Buffy, explained what happens to vampires, "the demon gets your body but not your soul, that's gone". But he said that for vampires, not all demons. Which leaves the question of demons with or without souls open to interpretation.

Cameron Lapp

I believe the "werewolf species" was mentioned because they changed the makeup since the original was notoriously rubbery. The bookends are nice - at the beginning the gang is only pretending to hang out while in end they're actually hanging out as friends again :) Part of this episode is showing the "help the helpless" with Nina - rather than just "kill the client" in the first two episodes. Also shifting morals: while they talk about closing Crane's in the end it's mostly an afterthought, AFTER the gang has left the turncoat to the cannibals. Arguably at this point "help the helpless" is not "help everyone", the gray area of running wolfram & hart.

Cameron Lapp
>>108969902

Lol, we should let some people be friends: especially since they try to hook up Fred with everyone. In this episode they accentuate her potentially with 3 guys (Angel, Knox, and Wesley), ironically they don't talk about Funn which has been an actual relationship. OTP Spangel, at least that's a canon relationship.

Cameron Lapp

It's worth noting that with Cordy/Angel's "complicated" relationship it becomes extra complicated since nobody remembers Connor. Imagine how complicated the last 2 seasons were and then imagine them having to retcon it all to work without Connor: "So Darla came back, and then killed herself for no reason, and then Holtz came back and then left for no reason, and then Holtz came back as an old man and sunk angel in the ocean and vanished, and then cordy came back from heaven and for some reason never got together with angel and then virgin birthed Jasmine and fell into a coma" Or arguably a lot of the last 2 seasons happened COMPLETELY differently. What happened with Wes & Angel without the kidnapping?

Cameron Lapp
>>109098171

Arguably Angel "kinda dating someone" in Fred's head was that Cordy & Angel ACTUALLY dated in season 4 and then Angelus happened because of the curse in retcon?

Cameron Lapp
>>109098171

Biggest thing is Wes though: you notice that all the tension with Gang vs Wes is gone, because the kidnapping never happened in their minds. Nobody mentions Wes & Lilah in the context of getting too close to WR&H for example - Angel essentially rewrote Wes' life over the past 2 years which all sprung from Connor.

Ron Fehr

Darla killing herself was not for no reason in my opinion. She wanted the baby to come out, and I think she realized that the only available loophole to make it happen was to dust herself.

Ray D

I like this one. Nothing amazing but a solid hour of Angel. I liked Angels talk with Nina at the end and really loved the final scene with the gang all hanging out together and ordering food. I feel like seasons 3 and 4 were both so depressing that we didn’t get to see a lot of scenes like this where everyone at Angel investigations just enjoy each others company as friends. i believe that the network ordered the Angel writers to make the early season 5 episodes more stand alone since they thought maybe some people that were watching Buffy but not Angel might check out Angel now that Buffy was over. So they wanted to make the first little bit of the season easy for those people to just jump in and understand.

Steve Quast

The Buffyverse is inconsistent with its werewolf design. In season 2 Oz did stand on 2 legs as a werewolf, but in seasons 3 and 4 he ran on all fours.

Luke

I'm so happy you're finally on this season! I used to be friends with the actress who played Nina in this episode!

Sharon Owen

This reminds me of a typical Supernatural episode. When they were trying to search for her, it felt very Sam/Dean trying to find someone. It even had the 'we need to be concentrating on this plot point (Spike) but we have a werewolf right now...'