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Hinge Points S2E1: Dog-gone-erland (Patreon)

Published:
2022-11-17 16:01:03
Edited:
2023-01-23 21:21:36
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Hinge Points is back for a new season, baby! This first ep is free, but expect new episodes for the next 5 Thursdays, only at patreon.com/chapotraphouse.

Matt and Danny Bessner (from American Prestige) invite Chris to discuss the question: What if Doggerland (the area of land between Britain and France) was never filled in with water?

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Comments

Camden

This is the most fun hinge episode so far but at the same time this is such a massive difference that all the events over the last 5-10 thousand years are changed that it feels impossible to say anything. Like pre Roman metal age Europe is transformed. Not to rain on a years old parade.

etienne

france would just be a bit bigger

S Agsar

Cringe points

Blake

Let's goooo

Ryan W

Hinge! Hinge! Hinge!

brodie

YOOOO

T. S.

Sucks that Dan Bessner is too annoying to tolerate for an hour

Blake

Wait where's the good theme song?

NYCM&AHole

Lol dummy Bessner is back to shill for nato on this podcast like he did on American prestige. He’s too fragile to be criticized (he’ll even ban you from the patreon if you call him out for his whitewashing)

justDave
>>95812332

I still believe the reign of the regime of the coffee house fag was western Luxembourg's only shot at proto-Moaism

Mike Mariano
>>95812296

As soon as this episode appeared in my feed it got stuck in my head. I will forever be haunted by that old timey piano.

Gumbo Pie

And this is why Ireland has no snakes, not because of some genocidal "saint".

Patrick Burke

The more obscure the better! Bring it on! Can’t wait for that 30 years joint to drop

dan

hell motha fuckin yeah

Isaac Jones

Fuck you! Bring back my silly intro music!

Ben

The intro omg

Ben

What if the ottoman’s had lightsabers

Joe Bowden

Not looking forward after the first few minutes of explaining how ‘England’ is a separated island etc. THAR FOOKIN ISLANDS CALLED BRITIN INIT

Peter Sullivan

If we didn’t have the melting of the ice caps / end of the last ice age (and subsequently maintaining the land bridge between England and mainland Europe) then we’d still have Atlantis and all the technologically advanced societies that were drowned by the Great Flood. So all of this would be taken care of and there’d be no feudalism-capitalism.

ScottB

What you gotta do is tack on the old, unhinged intro song to the end of the new, more focused intro and just have a long, perfect intro. Best of both worlds, baby

David

GQ piece=hinge point

John Swan

I prefer my points hinged.

Gumbo Pie
>>95818568

That is if you hold to the notion that civilization is only 8,000 years old. New discoveries across the world are challenging that. Who knows, there is an apparent pyramid in Bosnia (thought to be) and a sunken city off of Cuba (near proven fact), why not relics underneath the English Channel as well?

Peter Sullivan
>>95818568

How is this opposed to my statement? I’m saying these civilizations likely did exist, so without the great flood, they would’ve still been around.

Yairo Martis

Matt's a little wrong there. The Dutch also lost their colonial empire somewhat recently. 1945-1949 after Indonesia declared independence.

Gumbo Pie
>>95818568

Oh it's not, I'm wholeheartedly agreeing. I just talk like that. Meant the figurative "you".

Peter Sullivan
>>95818568

Fair enough, compadre. In that case thank you for furthering the cause. I’m sure you’re also aware of countless other examples of potentially ancient civilizations spanning from Indonesia to Peru to Turkey. So yeah, needless to say I think we have the Hinge boiz beat on this one.

Gumbo Pie
>>95818568

Terra Preta Black Soil in the Amazon is probably one of the most important discoveries as well. It shows that it is most likely human derived fertilizer that is over 10,000 years old, and also in such a remote location away from the origins of human evolution. It's an area I believe thats called a "nutrient desert" since all the plants and fawna zap the soil, so it was a necessary invention there. Not to mention too that said relic soil is being scorched earth right now in the Amazon. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta

Gumbo Pie
>>95818568

And, for a call back. Didn't the Celts love their peat moss?

Joe Bowden

Chris the channel is about 15 miles at its shortest, not 500 feet lol

Kamran Husain

bring back the theme music

Ozzie

Ready to binge some hinge

aida beats

HINGE POINTS hinge points hinge points

Brendan Costello

"What if the buffalo killed us?" THAT is a compelling question...

John Harwood

As a content enjoyer but also a professional historian person, I feel that it is important to say two things: this is good fun, and riddled with total bullshit. Big hearts to Danny, Matt, and Chris, but whoa.

Hayley
>>95818568

i would love a Matt Christman discussion with Graham Hancock

Hayley
>>95835088

for the non-professional, history is whatever half remembered facts come to your lips when you talk about it

Brendan Costello
>>95835088

Plus they are totally ignoring the question of what would happen if the Borg had not developed Warp technology. (Would they just keep assimilating themselves?) Kidding aside, good fun & smart guy talk is worth the time. As a non-historian, I find the informed speculation, even if it is fanciful BS, useful and interesting. It highlights a lot of history and historical factors that help understand the actual reality & history we have & have seen.

Arthur G. Pym

What I propose to do in this podcast comment per se, about the actual podcast writ-large, relates to what I feel is something that is probably the most salient thing I feel about the pod cast , is that

Brandon

Ireland would never develop cringe capitalism 🇮🇪 🇮🇪 🇮🇪 its in our genes to lose and be patsies of european hegemony

Dick Wolf

What if we went dogging, in the Doggerland?

Joseph Mabrey

What if I had a penis, inside of my ass?

Peter Sullivan
>>95818568

I like where your head’s at. While both have different objectives; Matt trying to make sense of our current world to understand where we’re headed vs Graham trying to find out where we came from and our secret past, count me in.

Nolan

“Papa. I will get a gun” - Caleb.

Dan

Clocks and Chocolate are more associated with Switzerland/Germany. Dutch stereotypes are Tulips, Bicycles, windmills, wooden shoes.

Dan
>>95841433

We need a Caleb check-in ( if it's funny).

Zak DeLange

+1 to your theory of enlightenment never happening in this realm. As Graeber said without the influence of Native American dialogue the enlightenment and liberalism in general wouldn’t have occurred in Europe

Mike Mariano

I had no concept of the size of Doggerland listening to this podcast. But yeah, seeing the Wikipedia mock-up—that’s a lot of land! Is there any way London would exist in this scenario?

Brandon

I get what u guys were going for here to drive home the point capitalism needed to be developed on a safe, separate, strong island with an imperial subject neighbor, but i feel like you overlooked the people that would live in the doggerland a bit. Like that was where humans were in that time when it flooded. The other places were too damn cold! This massive land connecting england to germany, netherlands, and possibly france could have been a powerhouse. Particularly in the late mesolithic era, not sure it wouldn’t have been flooded by now by rising sea levels absent that tsunami, but im willing to suspend disbelief for the overall points you guys made here

Gorgeousgeorge

This boessner guy sucks, get ‘em out of here

theunderwolf

Ok but what are the implications of this universe on games workshop?

Brandon
>>95854721

Is this sarcasm have u not seen any of the other hinge points lol? Id say in the first season he certainly kept matt on some rails where his rants could make a clear point more easily.

Joe

MC referring to capitalism as a biological system… *Chefs Kiss*

T

This series should be renamed “the years of rice and salt audiobook”

John
>>95823138

I think we all know he’s talking about the hegemonic driver’s seat and not the administration of dregs…

John
>>95835088

I’ll bite. Hayley and John are being good natured and quite right here. I’m a little surprised Danny didn’t bring up the hubristic lunacy of conceiving proto history as a terra nullius for the written word. This is why starting with Rome is a knee slapper. We’re not talking about a 500 BC historical counter factual starting with Heraclitus. We’re talking about a 5000 BC GEOGRAPHICAL counter factual starting with God only knows.

John

Uh, bring back the old song tho amirite…what I love about comments is that this downward dogger ep was a questionable mental jog/jag from jump that has nevertheless reinforced feelings of omniscience for many. Cower in fear, Danny, for here is the reason people have not achieved subject object status in history lol. They’re morons.

Sam Burton

Seems like capitalism not developing or developing more slowly in Europe could have also resulted in it having a chance to develop in Asia instead. Like, you get some Black Death level shock in China or India, which probably would have happened eventually, and then Japan/Korea or the Straits of Malacca or somewhere like that becomes your analogue to Britain/Ireland.

Simon

Christine Desan in "Making Money" talks about how being an island allowed England to have a much stronger and stable taxation system compared to most governments on the continent. This was crucial for its monetary system and the creation for the Bank of England. Book is a good read and also touches on Calvinism's contribution to capitalist thought (interest bearing loans aren't immoral!).

Boaz Corey

I strongly think this hingepoint requires a discussion with archaeologists, particularly ones who study economics and geography of complex societies. The hosts don't really discuss anything before recorded history, whereas archaeological and genomic research of prehistoric Europe is slowly elucidating the story of successive migrations and conquests. Their timeline of <8000 ybp even predates the Indo-European migrations of the Western Steppe Herders reached western and southern Europe, and the subsequent cultural formation of what we call Germanic and Celtic cultures. What if they had the whole of doggerland to expand to? What are the alternate climatic regimes and the resulting agricultural implications of that doggerland existing through those times? There is a lot of data there and even though it's not recorded in writing I think you could still speculate for the purposes of this exercise. As an archaeologist I wish they would've discussed something like this! Still great insights on what you did cover though and one of the best podcasts out there.

Tim O'Connor

Devastated by the loss of the theme song

Naked Shitter

Produced by Prestige Worldwide

Carter Drake

YEEEEEEAAAAAAG BAAAABBYYYY NOTHER’ HISTORY SERIES EP

Maggie+Al

You guys make the assumption that the Romans would have had an easier time absorbing Britain, I’m not sure that is true historically they couldn’t Conquer the entire land mass as it was and there was a 100 year gap between the gallic wars and the successful conquest of Britain, its relative isolation and small size meant that it could wait till one or other Emperor wanted a strait forward war of choice. Expand the territory and connect it to the mainland all of a sudden Britian is much more comparable to Germany.

Mr. Dalliard

I miss the season 1 intro song. There's nothing else like it.

Gumbo Pie

[This is a safe link, I can't control if it plays ads] I told a robot to make thing relating to this. https://rave.dj/XLOLq7pDP1-tpA

Hayley

fill my doggerland

David Andrews

Very fun, enjoyable discussion

Jon Lyons
>>95920136

somebody's gonna come along and find some weird reason to bitch about this because it doesn't include their pet event, but you should ignore them because this is really fun & cool & catchy, good job

Maddy B

Yes! YES!!

Greg

Bring back the theme song!

William
>>95812517

Lol nothing's funnier than seeing someone critique another for being "fragile" then get mad when they are critiqued

William

Boys, feels like we're over fitting the model on this one. Smarter people have determined that proto capitalism has its roots in Venice, moving to Genoa, then to the Dutch. Sure, England was next, but re roll the dice and it could be France. Not sure there's much more to it than that. Even the magna Carta wasn't that unique - I think the Hungarian nobles forced their king into something similar

Marc Likens

Clocks and chocolate? The Dutch? You really lose credibility when you get your cultural caricatures mixed up like that. Wooden shoes and windmills; the Swiss do clocks and chocolate.

William
>>95835088

Eh, good enough for a podcast. They're not going to publish to an academic journal or write a book

BabuFrick

When did Vikings get over to Canada? It was hundreds of years before Spaniards landed in the Caribbean. What if the Vikings just made that trade network more concrete and exchanged weapons and antibodies over a century or two?

Patrick Holt

A variable that becomes important is where the rivers Thames, Somme, Seine and Rhine go, in terms of creating natural state boundaries and bountiful estuaries. The assumption of a united north-western Europe seems like it depends on no serious natural frontiers. With the greater land area before those rivers could find the sea, they would become bigger and deeper and their rich estuaries and flood plains bigger. The idea that there would be no inter-state competition to produce the Rennaissance military revolution and colonialism is very questionable.

Patrick Holt
>>95965980

Apparently they do a lot of precision tools and industrial supplies theses days, taking advantage of the leeway created by being surrounded by the EU but not in the Single Market or the Eurozone to invest in industry for market advantage, instead of just getting de-industrialised by an uncontrollable trade deficit with Germany.

soldiermighty

season one theme song slaps :/

Sammi

Devastated to lose the opening theme between seasons

Savannakhet
>>95823138

Yeah and they tried to reorganize their empire into a sort United Dutch States but only Suriname and a few caribbean islands wanted in.

Yairo Martis
>>95823138

They were obliged to decolonize their remaining colonies after 1949. Suriname became independent in 1975. Aruba left the Netherlands Antilles in 1986, and the N.A. itself was broken up on 10 Oct. 2010 (not that it improved life for regular working people...) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Netherlands#Decolonisation

Ijon Tichy

l get and appreciate the West-Wing-Ass opener you guys are going for, that said, GIMME MY ELECTROSWING BOP BACK!

Brandon

I think you guys are underestimating scotland and ireland here because if the doggerland isnt under water, ireland would be significantly larger and possibly also connected to scotland wales or cornwall. Also the implications of this go even further back before roman rule because youd have the thriving mesolithic cultures of north eastern scotland probably never leaving. Although I understand this thought experiment assumes all is the same except the doggerland is at a higher elevation and the purpose is to understand how capitalism has to develop on the periphery with an imperial subject. Ireland would never have this, thus they would likely never develop capitalism. I could see scotland basically becoming the new england and doing the same thing they did, but i think that would require rome not stopping at hadrians wall and conquering scotland so they would be more different from their irish cousins

Wumbledorf

Doggerland rules as a post roman dynasty for centuries until the mongols sweep the entire european continent

Angus Cairnie

Anglo-Saxon England was a prosperous and sophisticated kingdom, it was not an isolated backwater

Garrick Bigwood

I just wanted to state how much I love these Hinge Point episodes. Hearing these historical counter factuals being discussed asks and answers a lot of the questions I often have, but don't know anyone knowledgeable enough to ask them of.

Doug Cartel

this is why David Harvey is such a good read on Marx, because he was talking about the relationship between geography and economics in a Marxist context for a long time, or at least he's the only one i know of who has connected those things in a marxist lens.

Clammy_Damp

These dudes have a super shaky understanding of medieval history.