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First off, another quick plug for all the interesting discussing happening on my community page. Some posts are up regarding topics like which of my leading ladies you found the loveliest (yech, I am so alliterative lately, I swear), what D&D characters the TIOS cast would be... all kinds of stuff. Feel free to chime in and/or post your own.

On that note, I've seen some folks in my niche of the web doing the blog thing, the discord thing, etc. Is there any interest in that? I definitely have Make A Website on my to-do list (since god knows when I'll attract the ire of Patreon's Ministry of Objectionable Content), but I don't know if there's any interest in that. Not offering, per se, but I guess probing for interest.

So, story time! Here we have the quite belated but hopefully still anticipated sequel to all those TIOS spin-offs, Extra Credit. Like I said in the last post, it's a piece largely about Heather, split between Jordan and Heather PoV. I think it wound up proving an interesting challenge as a writer, in that the motivation to corrupt Kristy was pretty straightforward. One of the only hotties at NHS Jordan couldn't co-opt into his harem, plus a chance to cuck Conner while living out a fantasy of fucking his hot teacher.

Heather, on the other hand, he not only has at his disposal to fuck on a nearly daily basis with all the padding of the TIOS support for the environment, but also already dated long before Conner ever got to her. Huge tits are cool and all, but I can imagine (and I suppose as a writer, project) that when you have dozens of them in your face all the time, it's not enough on its own. 

Yet at the same time, her personality is much more diametrically opposed to his than the others, so there's a natural clash between them. Heather is well-mannered, sweet, hardworking, an outspoken SJW; Jordan is rude, a bully, lazy and entitled, and has probably never formed a political opinion too complex to summarize in meme. Essentially, an outspoken idealist vs. a self-absorbed cynic. So I decided to approach this less as a story of Jordan pursuing what he wants from Heather (since he pretty much already has that), and more of Jordan as judge/jury/executioner for her.

I have no idea whether or not this turned out great, but I'll leave it to you to decide as usual. More to come!

Comments

Anonymous

This needs a sequel

icebear

Oh dang, it's been a while on this one. There isn't a direct follow-up, but there are loads and loads of TIOS tales that have come out over the years. There's a google doc (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ksSBhv_rAkTDWTX2TjryJxWk5UkxnAQsoLN_ck4e4DE/edit#gid=0) that has all my stories linked, so that might be a good place to check for more like this. Glad you enjoyed!

Anonymous

Yeah I know, I've read all your tios works. Both canon and side stories. But I really want a continuation on these Jordan focused side stories. Seeing methodically corrupt the girls is really fun to read.

Ferrum1

Two thumbs up. I liked that you included more folks in the story. If I had one complaint, it would be that it ended just as things came to fruition. I would have loved to see more about what happened next, though maybe that's the hook. It would be a truly devious writer who leaves things hanging like that, teasing the readers until the next installment emerges. ;)

WDB

Don't act like me writing all of this is a surprise: 1. So, at what point does the monthly commission drawing become "choose which TIOS character Jordan goes after in an AU story"? Is it just easier to switch reward tiers over at the first of the month? I kid, I kid. I could read these forever, so thanks to whoever officially pushed Jordan ahead of Conner in the "Most TIOS Stories" leaderboard by commissioning this story. 2. I think it's funny that, when given the prompt that inspired this story, you were like "Hmm, not sure if this'll work" and then proceeded to write DOUBLE the amount you originally offered. Hilarious. I love your dedication to making every concept better. 3. I don't know how to work Discord, but I'll learn it if that's where your community lands. And, Jesus, *please* make a blog that can be a way to follow you should Patreon do what Patreon inevitably does. 4. "Extra Credit"? I really enjoyed it! Jordan's plan was suitably grandiose, despite being mostly "fuck Heather, but more and better". It's great, like Ferrum1 mentioned, to see so many TIOS all-stars in this story. (I didn't even know if it'd be set after Faculty Meeting, so, pleasant surprise!) Another winner of a TIOS story. I wish I had more, but it's usually not until the first time I try to go to bed after I read a new Ice Bear story that my brain just starts speeding up about it and generating things I want to talk about, so maybe tomorrow? I wanted to get this in while it's fresh, though. 5. Thank you for zeroing in on one of my favorite thing about TIOS in particular, and what I prefer in MC stories in general: I like it better when the protagonist doesn't change, but reactions *to* him change. Why bother making yourself fit and gorgeous if you can just make everyone *think* you are? Jordan's thoughts on why he never tried to improve himself with TIOS are why I think the stories are so hot. That cognitive dissonance, as characters describe traditionally unattractive people as the most attractive specimens of humanity? Or how a character's desire is just insanely out of whack with a normal human reaction? HOT. TO. DEATH. (Like, as an example, all of the women in Of Infidelity, and they way they begin to describe Clayton.) Thanks for putting it into words in one of your stories. 6. I kinda loved how you took the time to have Jordan basically go, "Conner spends so much time pining for Heather in Book 1, but she's so outclassed by Kristy, Amanda, and most of the supporting cast plots in Books 2 and 3. Here's a bunch of supporting documentation!" I don't know if Heather's ever going to measure up to the other TIOS leading ladies (besides the, uh, obvious), but I think this story let her shine a bit more than the last two books. It's a necessary addition to the series, if not the canon. 7. I don't know! Just, thanks for writing this! You're great!

WDB

I mean, the way these stories are going? I assume the remainder of that scene will set up the inevitable commission where someone wants a Jordan vs Amanda AU story. Which, if true, not complaining!

Ferrum1

I've been enjoying Jordan's adventures so I'm not opposed to seeing more. He's been a far better character than Conner ever was. I think the best part was seeing Ms. C playing an active role in the take-down of one of her rivals, even if she didn't realize it. That added a much appreciated element of heat that I wish had been capitalized on a bit more.

WDB

So, okay, I thought more on it for a bit (SHOCK), and I still really liked Extra Credit as a story. I just, I don't know how much I liked it as erotica. I'm trying to figure out why that is, so maybe bear with me? It's, and I feel like it's necessary to point this out upfront, a really well-written story. I liked the progression, I *love* the world of TIOS, it had some nice escalation from Faculty Meeting (the Kristy scene where she's making out with Jordan to scold Heather for being a poor tutor is *weapons-grade erotica*), and all of the little guest appearances were really fun. I am in no way saying that I didn't like this story. Disclaimer over. Okay, Extra Credit. Why didn't it work that great for me as erotica, besides that Kristy scene? THEORY 1: HEATHER - I mean, Ice Bear mentions it a bunch of times both in and out of the story, but Heather's kinda no one's favorite? She's a solid aspirational goal for Conner in Book 1, but once he wins her, then what? She recedes pretty substantially into the background of Book 2 and 3, largely because *everyone else is more interesting*. Seeing Jordan take advantage of her doesn't have the same sick allure as the Kristy stories, because it's like, who'd care if Jordan stole her from Conner? Why not steal DeShaun while you're at it? (I'm just kidding, that poor kid probably has an awesome "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead" version of the TIOS trilogy waiting to be told.) This story did a lot to get into Heather's head, and have her be more than a lust object or a grade-grubbing punchline, but I'm not sure it made a compelling case for why Jordan would be after her. THEORY 2: TIOS OVERLOAD - The other problem, and I think Lesson Plans/Faculty Meeting are pretty instructional here, is that the idea of "more TIOS effects on Heather" just unfortunately isn't that hot, because she's the target of *so many* TIOS effects across the three books. Kristy wasn't really, and certainly not by Jordan, the direct subject of TIOS alterations in the main continuity. (Let's just call them the "Connerverse" and the "Jordanverse" for simplicity, okay?) So, when we see Jordan just *target* Kristy, it's not only transgressive, it's also fresh. When Jordan focuses on Heather, it's only after a half-dozen quotes (and one photo-manipulation) have turned her head around. It's not transgressive or fresh, since Jordan's already been fucking Heather daily (and some homework excursions) across two novels. Like, I think the only way it could've been hot for me is if he'd pushed it *crazy farther*. As it was, it felt like a shift of degrees from how she'd been in all of her other stories. THEORY 3: POV - Or maybe it's just that we were too inside Heather's head? Was it (and I can't believe *I'm* suggesting this) too empathetic? Maybe this story, to be hotter, needed to come at it like Sub Notes, with a bit more cruelty to it. A harder edge, where Jordan was more punitive in his actions and we saw the story entirely from his perspective. Just him wanting to crush Heather, that might've been dark enough to feel like a change from the Connerverse, enough to have enough of a spark for me. I don't know. As a fan of the universe, I appreciated how fulfilled and focused Heather was, and how she owned her choices as a way to grab hold of her dream. As a fan of erotica, that very same dedication and self-esteem maybe made it less hot for me. I don't know. THEORY 4: TEACHER REWARDS - I responded to a comment someone made a while back on some TIOS-related post about how I liked it better when Jordan used his powers for his own gain, rather than letting the whole school benefit. The "Heather sucks up to all of her teachers" scene, which feels like the one I should find the hottest, just didn't work for me. I think it's a specific thing for me, where I don't think it's that hot when no one involved thinks what they're doing is weird. Like, I need *someone* to be a recipient, someone to feel like they're benefitting, instead of everyone thinking it's no big deal. Although, wait. I love The Fiend's Tongue, which is exactly a story where no one thinks anything is weird and they all write it off as normal. But, wait, no, 'cause I didn't love all of the "Kristy gets felt up by the faculty" mentions across the last two stories. I... huh. Jesus, why *didn't* the teacher stuff work for me? THEORY 5: HUMAN SEXUALITY IS SUBJECTIVE AND PERSONAL KINKS ARE A RESULT OF A LIFETIME OF ENGRAINED SUBCONSCIOUS BEHAVIOR THAT RENDER ANY ATTEMPT TO EXPLAIN A SEXUAL RESPONSE OR THE LACK THEREOF ENTIRELY FRUITLESS - Yeah, maybe it's this one. This one seems right.

WDB

Conner's a sweet boy! Shame on you! And, yeah, the Kristy scene where she's grinding all over Jordan and berating Heather? INSANELY HOT. Scene of the story for me.

Ferrum1

Yea, that scene with Kristy and Heather was "the" scene for sure. It was exactly the kind of thing I was hoping would happen more often, playing off their unspoken competition with each other.

Ferrum1

T3 is interesting because I rather enjoyed the fact that Sub Notes is over and done with. It was too dark and hateful to be erotic, imo, and I thought the lack of development for the teacher made it even more so. Treating Heather like that wouldn't have made for a good story at all, I don't think. We already knew her and liked her, to some degree, so seeing her thoroughly destroyed would have been harsh. At least with the substitute teacher, we didn't have anything invested in her and could treat her like a two-dimensional prop for the story. Threatening Heather with the destruction of her dreams, and bringing Kristy in to help, that was hot because we kind of got to see how far Heather would go to get her A's. T4: Honestly, I saw this whole store as more of a continuation of Kristy's adventures than I did Heather's. Sounds odd, I'm sure, but having Kristy feature so prominently in the story just tied it very nicely to Lesson Plans and Faculty Meeting. It wasn't exactly about her, but there was enough of her and her experiences to make it seem that way. I'd love to hear more about her being used by the other teachers since that was referenced here and in LP&FM. I agree that there's something decidedly different about Kristy's experiences and the other girls. It's interesting because we can sort of rejoice in Kristy's downfall as much as Conner's being cuckolded and made a fool. I wish he was a better opponent for Jordan, but that die's been cast and all we can do is enjoy Jordan's machinations. Your earlier comment about needing to think things over for a night was spot on. I did that just the other day when I was reading another story by another author and thought, "Ice Bear could soooo write this better!" Then I started going through all the ways the story could be changed to be more IB-esque. It was a fun thought experiment that made me really dislike the story even more as it was measured against IB's work.

WDB

Oh, believe me, I'm not usually the one to say a story should have been darker. *Not* really my thing a whole lot. But the first half of Sub Notes I really liked, and that's maybe more of what I thought a Heather/Jordan story could use. You're probably right, and my fondness for her character might've made a rougher story feel too gross. It's mostly that I thought her upbeat, can-do attitude at the end wasn't was I was looking for in erotica, so maybe the *opposite* of that might be hotter? Not better, but hotter? I guess the circle I can't square is that, like, all of the Kristy stuff in LP/FM is like a one-to-one comparison with Heather in Extra Credit. Both stories are built around Jordan subverting someone's core desire (being a good teacher, going to Berkeley) to get massively, epically laid. The Conner stuff is a small part of each story. (Well, a big part for the ending of Faculty Meeting.) It's mostly that twisting of someone's sense of self, that rearranging of someone's, not *goals*, but *commitment*. Thematically, it makes all three stories feel like an unofficial trilogy. I just don't know why I find two of them great stories and insanely hot, and one of them just a great story with an insanely hot scene. It's probably some mix of all five theories, with a sprinkling of "maybe just try it again later"? PS I'd be lying if I didn't also say that Ice Bear has ruined other MC erotica authors for me. If he ever slows down, we are *fucked*.

WDB

The way the story kept calling back to the "jealousy = hotness" quote from OTWN was especially sweet, too. That quote came too late in the book to get a ton of play, but this story made *ample* use of it.

Anonymous

I'll be reading this at the end of the week. Thanks Ice bear!

Khellrendros

If I didn't hate Jordan so much I would like this more. Just don't like douche bag characters. I can't help that think that someone, Conner, Heather, Amanda someone would figure out what he is doing and give some just dessert. Especially Conner who pretty much hates him. If I were Conner in that situation even with TIOS blocking recognition of changes and suspected him of anything I would edit him to a mental ward somewhere.

WDB

Oh, man, I wonder if someone's going to use a commission win eventually to tip the karmic scales back in Conner's favor by requesting a story where Conner gets brutal revenge on Jordan through TIOS. From the writer of "Of Infidelity", there's got to be a story there. Fun thoughts. Thanks for the idea!

Anonymous

I like how methodical Jordan is with this and has clearly taken advantage of how he has Corrupted Miss C. Great job as usual! It was a controlled pace with perfectly sprinkled moments that left you wanting to see when the pay off was. :D This whole thing just left me wondering, if Jordan "created" Amanda to be a female version of Conner, does that mean any changes to Amanda's attitudes mirror changes to Connor's attitude?

WDB

Yeah, gosh, seeing Jordan really *use* Kristy, in every sense, was so fun. I don't know about you, but it's always a little bit more enjoyable for me in an MC story when a controlled character is used for more than just sex. As for whether or not changes to Amanda affect Conner, I *feel* like that's a no, based on things like how Conner can talk about Sex Ed class while it's more difficult for Amanda. Still, maybe not? It's definitely a fun idea, them being linked somehow through TIOS.

Anonymous

That makes sense. I also feel like Ice Bear closes his stories in a really unique way. Like usually its expected to finish highlighting the climax of the act, but he does so often mid-act but the climax takes place in the clarity of the characters mind, as if it were a moment of orgasm in the mind.

WDB

"...As if it were a moment of orgasm in the mind. " Wow, that is an *amazing* way of putting it. I think it shows Ice Bear's commitment to character and theme that he's willing to place the ending emphasis on what's best for the narrative, not just more sex. Like, I wasn't crazy about the last chunk of Extra Credit, but "I am now" is an *atom bomb* of an ending line. Between that and Kristy's "happiness was overrated" from Faculty Meeting, yeah, I'd agree that endings are something Ice Bear's best at.

Anonymous

That's not to say that I wouldn't want more sex, but damnit you come in looking for one thing and you leave totally satisfied with something you never saw coming (no pun intended) :D

WDB

Ha ha, absolutely! It's the classic "he didn't give us what we wanted, he gave us what we *needed*."

Anonymous

First off, put me down for interest in a discord. The comments section in Patreon is a little awkward to use. And to anyone else reading this, do note that there exists a general Mind-Control literature discord you can join whether Ice Bear ends up making one of his own or not.

WDB

Patreon? Awkward to use? Preposterous! You've got single-layer comments without threading, a dearth of notification options, and minimal-to-nonexistent editing tools. What more could you ask for here in 1998? *puts finger to ear* What's that? Twenty-NINETEEN? Really?! Oh, then, yeah, Patreon's attempts are total bullshit. Never mind me.

Anonymous

Let's not forget that in Patreon if you post too much text, or too often, you just get rejected. As a bonus, the author may also suddenly find themselves "Under Review by the Trust and Safety Team".

WDB

Yeah, I have (unsurprisingly?) been a recipient of the You're Too Much Of A Fan To Be A Human Being shadowban. Super fun to not know why your posts are disappearing! And, ugh, yeah, those goddamn Patreon Puritans. This is a totally, utterly stable community to take part in. I can only imagine the stress of those actively trying to make a living in it.

Anonymous

I actually had a pretty large response typed up for the FM discussion where I detailed a bunch of logical inconsistencies I noticed in TIOS. They ranged from characterization issues to possible plot holes and it took a fair amount of work to double-check everything and make sure I wasn't simply misunderstanding or misremembering the story. Patreon wouldn't let me post it! I think the comment was too big. I briefly considered posting it in multiple parts but I remembered that Patreon doesn't allow that either. While I was pondering what to do about it the discussion sorta went in the direction of "we know there are issues with the story but also we like the story how it is" so I just deleted the text and gave up.

WDB

Aw, dip! That's sad to hear. Sorry Patreon's been a chore to deal with, but thanks for keeping up the discussions, regardless.

Anonymous

It wasn’t all bad. I enjoyed the chance to re-read many parts of the story. I don't recall many of the smaller details anymore but if I'm not mistaken mainline TIOS still mostly makes sense if you assume that Amanda has no problem lying when it suits her and the Conner/Angelica siblings are… um… dumb. If you make those assumptions, the only remaining big issue is that Amanda is supposed to be a female version of Conner, but when you read the story they’re actually completely different people outside of the yearbook editing (and Jordan having a pretty irrational hate-boner for both of them). For this I just choose to believe that TIOS assumed its entry meant Amanda was a female version of Conner “in so far as being a yearbook editor is concerned”. This is about as far as I can suspend my disbelief and still get into the story, I think. When you bring the alternate universe stories into the mix characters start to contradict TIOS entries in subtle ways and the harder I try to think of ways to reconcile everything, the more small inconsistencies and problems I find. I just kinda gave up at this point, but I’m glad other people are still enjoying it.

WDB

Yeah, not that I want to launch into this in a thread on the AU Heather TIOS post, but here's my view on Amanda's origin. (Not a theory! Just how I think about her genesis!) I look at TIOS a bit like the way Ice Bear once described his commission process. You've got people who have nearly every beat figured out, and they need you to sketch in some details. Then you've got people who just say "moar KrisT" and it's like, what does that mean? What story should that be? Kinda "too much direction" versus "no direction". TIOS (thematically!) is a bit like a writer here. When Jordan gives a ton of quotes on the Pride or Heather's throwing herself at teachers, it's easier to predict what TIOS is going to do with that. But when he just throws "she's like a female version of Conner" at it, I mean, shit. He is giving TIOS basically *nothing*, and is asking it for *a human being*. TIOS is going to have to come up with a whole bunch on its own just to make that work. As a result, there's baseline personality stuff it can crib from Conner, but it's going to have to make up a whole lot just to get her up to "can pass as a teenager" level. Maybe if lazy-ass Jordan had spent more time sketching her out, he'd've had a better weapon at his disposal. (I mean, I think "female version of Conner" is also a way to explore the diametrically opposed expectations of women and men in modern society, BUT, that's too much to shovel in to this post.) Anyway, that's just my take. Again, not saying it's a provable theory or anything, but that's how I see her.

Anonymous

Amanda’s origins have always been interesting for me to think about. Prior to the release of the third book, I was thinking it was likely she would make a heel-turn and be revealed as the true villain of the series. TIOS basically had three things to work with for Amanda: 1. She was going to be an editor 2. She was going to look like the model in the photo 3. She would be “like Conner, but female” In just about every other scenario, the most consistent thing about TIOS has been that it strips the context out of quotes and then applies them literally. If we go with this assumption, the “predicted” outcome would be that TIOS would simply take Conner’s details and make adjustments necessary for a gender swap. Alternatively Amanda could be seamlessly inserted into Conner’s family as his female fraternal twin (though this might be awkward for readers depending on their appetite for twincest). But Amanda was different. Why was she different? What was going on there? I was halfway to convincing myself that Amanda was somehow the personification of TIOS itself! That TIOS was tempting its users with power precisely to goad them into giving it a chance to create for itself a physical form. But uh… that turned out to be waaaaaay off. I guess TIOS just works literally 99% of the time except when it doesn’t. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

WDB

You are probably going to hate hearing this, but I have more thoughts on Amanda! To me, the main difference between Amanda and Conner is Amanda's fighting spirit. She definitely is more apt to call someone out, and she isn't afraid to speak her mind. No one's unbeatable, and nothing is impossible. Problems exist to be solved, not whined about. She's got more drive than Conner and she's way more likely to push back on things, and I think that's down to her being "a female version of Conner". Conner, as a character, as anybody would be, is the result of so many things. His family, his upbringing, his friends, his schooling, his life experiences, *everything*. All of the informs his personality in the TIOS trilogy and the choices he makes. But, that can't be Amanda. According to the (typically half-assed) work Jordan did, Amanda doesn't have a family, so she can't have had an upbringing, either. She doesn't have friends, previous schooling, hobbies, *a home*. All of the things that define how a person turned into who they are, Amanda doesn't have. So, TIOS is going to have to roll up its sleeves and figure out how to make a person based off of one quote. What does it mean, then, to be "a female version of Conner"? Conner's a boy (a *sweet* boy), a handsome boy, and that means he's allowed to want things like academic success and leadership. Amanda's a pretty girl, which means she's not supposed to want things like academic success and leadership. Society is built around letting handsome boys achieve whatever they want, and it's also built around setting limits on what pretty girls can achieve. If TIOS' job is to make "a female version of Conner", she's going to need to want the same things he wants. Our society tends to punish women who want things like Conner wants, so any female version of Conner would've had to fight against that her whole life. She would've needed to prove herself to gatekeepers, been disregarded because of her beauty, pushed harder to be taken seriously, all things that Conner would've never been asked to do. Conner's a handsome boy in a society that allows handsome boys any number of opportunities. (Extra Credit is really instructive in this way, as you can see how Jordan, a rich, handsome boy, gets to fuck around and assume his future is provided for, while Heather, a pretty girl, is mostly seen as a pair of great tits.) Conner can make mistakes and he'll get second chances. Amanda can't fuck up, or she's proving correct all of the assholes who think she isn't good enough because she's a pretty girl. She has to work harder, be better, and that exhibits itself in her more aggressive attitude than Conner. In most other respects, I feel like she's pretty similar to Conner? (I mean, they constantly piss each other off, which is a hallmark of "too fucking similar".) It's noted a bunch of times that they have the same sense of humor, the same nitpicky attention to detail. ("CO-editor-in-chief", Jesus Christ, get over yourselves!) Amanda's just a more confident, aggressive version of Conner, and I think it's down to "a female version of Conner" needing to be both of those things to get where Conner got. This is all, honestly, one of the things I love about the TIOS stories. It's not TIOS as a gamemaster or some code to crack, it's that it allows for some incredibly deep thematic analysis. Like, I was not expecting to be attacking innate patriarchal privilege through a character like Amanda (I mean, Heather, sure, of course), but I'll be damned if she's not capable of supporting that kind of interrogation. This goddamn series contains *multitudes*.

WDB

In retrospect, it occured to me that, in my zeal to talk about Amanda, I might not've, uh, actually addressed any of your comments and concerns? Sorry! I just really like thinking and talking about the thematic stuff going on in Ice Bear's stories. There's a lot going on "under the hood", you know? To your points about Amanda's construction, I guess I'd focus in on how maybe the order of entry is important for how TIOS constructs a person? (Also, unlike the quotes, I'm not sure how comfortable I feel nailing down how TIOS makes people since we really only have one example.) Like, the quotes are last, right? So I'd think TIOS would make a pretty girl named Amanda Carpenter with no family and no background and no residence, *then* add in personality based off of the quote, but only in ways that wouldn't contradict what was already input. Like, she can't be Conner's sister, she doesn't have any brothers. She can't live at Conner's house, she doesn't live anywhere. It's not going to fill in fields unless it absolutely has to. (Or maybe not at all? Does Jordan give her a phone number, or does TIOS do it? I can't recall.) For the most part, it doesn't have to. Does that make sense? I'm still not sure if I'm correctly interpreting your concerns or just spinning off unrelated topics. If so, sorry again!

Anonymous

I could never hate these discussions. I’m always interested in reading about how different people interpret things. You covered a lot of ground so this might won't be short... On Amanda's fighting spirit making her different from Conner - I don't disagree here. In fact that's my main point. They're not very alike at all outside of their shared interest in yearbook editing. One is bold and assertive while the other is meek and insecure. --- On Amanda's fierce personality being caused by TIOS attempting to make her similar to Conner - I don't think this argument is coherent. It basically boils down to "TIOS did something to make Amanda similar to Conner and that is why they became so different from each other". --- ​On Society being “built around letting handsome boys achieve whatever they want” - I feel that this doesn’t match up with reality. Society simply does not value good looks on men. *Women* get judged on their looks. Men are largely free from this... but they *are* judged based on their success (typically financial, sexual or athletic success). ​Female models make waaaaaay more money than male models. Same for female vs male porn stars. Attractive waitresses get bigger tips while attractive waiters get the same tips as their less attractive peers. Successful female celebrities are just about always hot, while successful male celebs run the gamut from Jack Black to Ryan Reynolds. ​It plays out the same way even in TIOS. Jordan and Conner are both good looking. So why is it that Jordan gets to fuck around and date hot girls like Heather while Conner lives life as a dweeb working on the yearbook, his “subordinates” passing undesirable work onto him and his peer group treated as social outcasts? The answer is that looks never mattered for either of them. Jordan is rich so life is his playground. Conner is neither rich nor is he an athlete so he gets to play the game of life in “hard mode” like most other people. ​Let’s look at a few other characters. Angelica did not want to go to the dance with Owen because he was an "unsuccessful" male and being seen with him would have hurt her social standing. Meanwhile Angelica herself is neither rich nor athletic but she *does* have good looks so Angelica is a desirable hottie at the top of the social food chain. Further compare Angelica’s standing to Conner. Both are good-looking and they come from the same background but society values Angelica’s good looks while it ignores Conner’s. Now reverse the situation. Imagine a world where Conner and Angelica are both rich, but also unattractive. Now it’s Conner who gets to be among the popular kids while his homely sister is ignored. ​Finally, we don't actually have to speculate on whether a smart, pretty girl like Amanda would even have to struggle in a school setting. We literally saw that she didn't. Amanda came in and was kicking ass at yearbook from day one and the only opposition she faced was from Conner, whom she handily defeated at every turn. We can't even say that she was a special case because Heather likewise found plenty of scholastic success. --- On the method of Amanda's construction by TIOS - Even by your proposed methodology it doesn't quite work. You said TIOS wouldn't contradict what was written... but nothing was written. Ergo there is nothing to contradict. Also regardless of what order the data might have been put into the system, everything gets saved at the same time anyway. One thing I did think of while reading your response is that maybe it's actually the other way around. Rather than society strengthening Amanda's resolve, perhaps it eroded Conner's instead. Maybe TIOS just took the essence of what made up Conner and replicated it onto the body of an girl, except this girl never spent years wallowing in the bottom rung of the school's totem pole. This girl never had to contend with a hot older sibling constantly hurling insults her way. This girl wasn't constantly being harassed by bullies. She didn't get rejected romantically, faint, and then have it become common knowledge. When you look at it that way, *no wonder* Amanda was brimming with self-confidence. She'd literally never failed before in her life.

WDB

I am batting a thousand today! Here's some bad explanations for my poorly considered viewpoints! --- "On Amanda's fierce personality being caused by TIOS attempting to make her similar to Conner - I don't think this argument is coherent. It basically boils down to 'TIOS did something to make Amanda similar to Conner and that is why they became so different from each other'." I guess I look at it as starting from Point A ("a female version of Conner"), and then TIOS having to apply How The World Works to get us to Amanda Carpenter. Like erosion turning mountains into canyons. It started with similar, but it could never be similar and be real at the same time. --- "On Society being 'built around letting handsome boys achieve whatever they want' - I feel that this doesn’t match up with reality. Society simply does not value good looks on men." I mean, each of our lived experiences are going to shape our individual outlooks on society, but, uh, *disagree*. *Heavy disagreement*. --- "On the method of Amanda's construction by TIOS - Even by your proposed methodology it doesn't quite work. You said TIOS wouldn't contradict what was written... but nothing was written. Ergo there is nothing to contradict." I guess, to me, "no data" *is* data? Like, I see TIOS looking at all those empty fields and saying "Oh, I guess she doesn't have a family? Or a place to live? Okay, cool, got it, lemme get started on this!" --- "One thing I did think of while reading your response is that maybe it's actually the other way around. Rather than society strengthening Amanda's resolve, perhaps it eroded Conner's instead. Maybe TIOS just took the essence of what made up Conner and replicated it onto the body of an girl, except this girl never spent years wallowing in the bottom rung of the school's totem pole. This girl never had to contend with a hot older sibling constantly hurling insults her way. This girl wasn't constantly being harassed by bullies. She didn't get rejected romantically, faint, and then have it become common knowledge. "When you look at it that way, *no wonder* Amanda was brimming with self-confidence. She'd literally never failed before in her life." This is a totally neat way of looking at it. I like the idea that Amanda's lack of traumas made her a more confident, assured person. Thanks for the alternative!