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Broken Silicon 47: Next Gen SSD Talk [PS5 Kraken, XBOX BCPack, PC SSD Requirements] (Patreon)

Published:
2020-05-06 00:19:09
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It’s time for gamers to start taking next gen storage seriously, and that’s what this episode is about. Meyer’s Tech Rants joins Tom to talk PS5’s SSD, XBOX’s SSD, & how PC will also evolve its storage.

1) 1:55 Opening Thoughts on why this SSD Discussion is Important

2) 6:00 Meyer’s Background

3) 10:35 Our first SSDs, and last gen consoles with SSDs

4) 16:27 Designing for SSDs vs  HDDs

5) 32:13 Will devs program for the “lowest common denominator”?

6) 38:18 Bottlenecks to Loading, Differences between consoles

7) 48:26 XBOX SSD with BCPack – Next Gen Texture Streaming

8) 57:40 PS5 Marvell SSD with Kraken – Next Gen Rendering

9) 1:19:05 Ray Tracing on Consoles & Nvidia Ampere

10) 1:23:39 Next Gen Storage in Gaming PCs

11) 1:43:50 Could Intel Optane or MRAM be the solution?

12) 1:55:17 Software & Storage, Next Gen Cooling, PCIE Gen 6, Earth Sized Worlds

13) 2:09:25 Closing Thoughts on how Gaming is about to Evolve

Guest: https://meyertechrants.blogspot.com/2020/04/hardware-accelerated-io-in-consoles.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph8LyNIT9sg&t=848

https://youtu.be/nKJ9amSDIE0

https://www.techspot.com/article/1992-nvidia-dlss-2020/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DOGA2_GETQ

https://youtu.be/uqillUSZvMM

https://www.tweaktown.com/news/71277/xbox-series-enhanced-games-arent-compatible-with-hdds/index.html 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDR2_SDRAM 

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/amd-explains-its-monster-radeon-pro-ssg/ 

https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-discontinues-StoreMI-replacement-version-with-new-features-being-planned-for-Q2-2020.460013.0.html 

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-radeon-pro-ssg,32365.html 

https://www.anandtech.com/show/15592/amds-2020-client-gpu-roadmap-rdna-3-on-the-horizon 

https://www.anandtech.com/show/15352/ces-2020-samsung-980-pro-pcie-40-ssd-makes-an-appearance 

https://videocardz.com/newz/nvidia-says-get-amped-for-gtc-2020-keynote-on-may-14

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Comments

MyNameIsCrease

Got curious about what I spent on my first SSD. Samsung 870 Evo 120GB $89.99 in 2014.

Anonymous

First of all, great podcast. I wanted to point out that BCPack isn't what MS is doing. What it's doing is compression of ALREADY-compressed BCPack assets. I've heard as high as 50% advantage over Kraken. According to former Valve and Ensemble Studios employee Richard Geldreich, "The bulk of the data games have to deal with is GPU texture data. Kraken (in PS5) is a general purpose system, not explicitly designed with texture data in mind. What Microsoft has is specially designed to kick ass on texture data. That’s what counts!" Another interesting aspect of the XBox design I think is the XBox's memory configuration. PS5 has 16GB of RAM as does the XBox Series X. The PS5 has a memory throughput of 448GB/sec. The Xbox, however, has 10GB of memory running at 560GB/sec and 6GB running at 336GB/sec. Weird! Why? Well, cost for one. Is that it? I believe that slow memory is going to do for the XBox what the PS5's faster SSD is doing for it in at least SOME ways. I believe that 6GB of slower memory is going to largely be used as a 6GB "slow" cache between the SSD and the faster memory. According to Andrew Goosen, "GPU optimal and standard [memory] offer identical performance for CPU audio and file IO." File IO is the key here. A very large collection of assets can be loaded into that slower memory partition from the SSD. 10GB of FAST(er) memory is plenty when you have what essentially can serve as a 6GB cache. What's faster than a fast SSD? Memory. If used in this way, this slower memory will allow for (very) fast retrieval of assets. Yes, it complicates development, but it actively encourages devs to optimize games for this pattern. It's true that the actual difference in max memory speed is relatively minor, so this does nothing to diminish the PS5's fast SSD feature; but fast memory has its advantages--as does rapid retrieval of common assets. I think this is the primary intended use of that slower memory and I think XBOX games will be optimized to use that memory architecture in this way. The PS5 can do the same thing--and I'm sure it will because devs have to code for both consoles. The XBox texture compression solution combined with a memory design heavily encouraging the aforementioned game architecture I think somewhat erodes the PS5 SSD advantage. Not a win by any stretch, but I think the PS5 SSD advantage may be somewhat overstated. Can't wait until we have some definitive answers. As for console games having more impressive games than the PC? I'll believe it when I see it. Zen3 isn't out yet. RDNA2 cards aren't out yet. But these will all be available in the consoles' release window. In my opinion, high-end gaming PCs will always exceed the current generation of consoles. And in the coming years, that advantage will only increase. Imagine 2 PCIe4 SSDs in RAID 0. Or 3+ in RAID 5. Of course, this doesn't mean devs won't code to the lowest common denominator. So there's still a difference on PC between what's possible and what's available with regard to games. Again, we'll soon find out. Exciting times!

Aiden

Great episode. One thing however Microsoft isn't designing their ssd just for fast loading but for big open worlds they have said this many times.

Master Chef

My heart sank when a buddy of mine started a new PC build, and one of his friends recommend a small, cheap boot SATA SSD and a 1TB HDD "Game Drive". It hurts my brain when you can spend maybe 20 bucks more and just get a 1tb M.2 instead. Not to mention he reccommended him 32GB of 2133mhzDDR4 to go with a Zen+ 2700 that cost 400CAD over getting a 250CAd 3600. Man, maybe you should do an episode on stupid build advice?

TSPCFS
>>36428430

If you’re using the slow memory (and remember 3.5GB is reserved for OS/system (or maybe 2.5Gv?)) like the PS5’s SSD than you are limiting how much RAM you can use for the game. How much an advantage PS5’s SSD will have, I have no idea. I don’t care which wins personally. I certainly hope they’re as close as you think so that we get a more standard way to do it on PC! :D

MooresLawIsDead
>>36448920

That's been my opinion for a long time now, too. You can spend $40 on an SSD, and then $50 on a 1TB HDD. Or you can just spend $90 total an a single 1TB SSD. Why you wouldn't choose one big SSD is beyond me...

MooresLawIsDead

I will chime in on a couple things - I have been told the PS5 uses less ram for the OS. Likely 1-2GB, and statements from devs hint at this as well. And in terms of "overstating the SSD advantage," I think people saying this are missing how important the 6 tiers and additional host controller will be to the "advantage.". GB/s are just part of the equation. In terms of loading, BCPack will help make up for some of the bandwidth deficit - but I still expect notably higher loading time in games. XBOX will still likely be better than Gen4 SSDs on PC much of the time though. At least for now. Now BCPack may also allow the XBOX to keep up with VRAM requirements too, but that's about the last thing you can say. In terms of actual abilities to stream in non-texture information, the capabilities are in entirely different leagues. Any speculation on how much of an advantage this is... Well it's speculation until we get a proper tech demo.

Matt Hartley

These podcasts are the reason I subscribed. This is the only channel I've found that talks to people who actually know things about the industry in depth. Keep up the great work.

TSPCFS
>>36453560

that's interesting--the PS4 used ~3GB iirc. Although I suppose that part of that was storing non-game apps/system menu ready to be run.... Which the SSD conveniently solves. (did Microsoft state they were reserving 3.5GB for system, or is that leaks? i don't recall). But if Sony is shrinking the system-memory reserve drastically it would just show how much thought they put into the SSD.