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Buffy The Vampire Slayer S06E14 - Older And Far Away FULL REACTION (Patreon)

Published:
2018-10-19 12:34:36
Edited:
2024-11-13 04:23:12
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Second_Strike

I watch your videos on here, not Youtube, so I don't know what kind of comments you get, but if negative feedback on Youtube comments is something that concerns you, I would edit out or re-cut the comments at the end of this one, because I can already see some of the angry responses you are gonna get. I get the point you were trying to make in contrasting the two situations, and I do agree that the situations were different. The Trio's scene is played very clearly as attempted rape, and the Spuffy scene is more ambiguous because they are in a "relationship" and Buffy has stopped him before. The problem is both scenes might show different types of assault, but they would still both be considered assault, and the way you phrased a couple of things is problematic. Just because Buffy is stronger and physically capable of stopping Spike, doesn't mean she is consenting. And, the whole "She is saying no but her body/soul is saying yes," can be interpreted as "No doesn't always mean no," which is again problematic. Again not trying to criticize or attack because I see where you are coming from, just saying that people on Youtube WILL criticize and attack.

Freddy Bowman

I understand the sentiment above, especially about trying to help Shan avoid any headaches with Youtube reactions to her comments. But I would disagree with any who would make the argument that Trio's assault = Spike's relationship with Buffy. There is a huge difference between what the Trio has done and what you said here with Spuffy. The biggest difference is the entire "will" of the person involved. Spike is doing something, when you think about it, that is almost miraculous. He is somehow (don't know how) fighting the urges of the demon within him, which should be controlling absolutely everything he says, thinks and does. And yet somewhere inside him, even without his soul, he's trying (admittedly in his mixed up way) to have a relationship with someone that he loves (Tara confirmed in the last episode Spike does love Buffy). So I think Spike has to be given at least some leeway because he's trying to fight the demon inside him. And yes, Buffy is stronger and they are in a relationship. Am I in any way condoning anything close to rape? Absolutely not!!! Not in a million years. But I do think there is enough difference between Spike and the Trio to allow for a completely different way of seeing their actions. Just my two cents. Not looking for a moral argument or anything. Just defending Shan's right to view it as she wants to.

s jaco

I agree with what you said. Katherine couldn't give consent because she was mind controlled. Consent wasn't even up for discussion, they took it from her, the decision to decided in itself was absent. Buffy has that decision. She can say No and if he doesn't stop, she can make him. Obviously in an ideal world No means No and that is that. But Spuffy has this relationship where a No so far has always led to a yes. So Spike wouldn't take her no seriously, she would have to show in another way that she really means no. Lots of girls or boys for that matter have to show in a different way that No really means No. Because rarely do people listen to the first No, they tend to try again especially if they are confident. That to me is the difference. The ability to decide.

Freddy Bowman
>>16439411

One more point. If we are going to talk about all manner of "assaults", couldn't we accuse Buffy of assaulting Spike when she was invisible? He told her to go, but she didn't. Yes, he gave in, but in a sense she did violate his expressed desire to stop. And of course we've got Willow doing the magic ruffy stuff with Tara. So there's a lot to unpack and think about. I realize that this is a huge issue in today's culture, more so that at any time I can remember. And it's a needed discussion in the culture at large. But I believe in the context of this show, and the Spuffy in general, we have to keep the variables in mind. :)

seekingoutfriday
>>16439563

It's like they are in a BDSM relationship without safe words. Which is bad and unhealthy btw. But No to Buffy hasn't really meant No. Get a safe word you two!

Bodertz
>>16439411

I don't see it as Spike fighting his inner demon. Spike loves Buffy and he wants her. He also loved and wanted Drusilla. Is it miraculous just because he isn't killing people? The chip certainly helps with that (and he succeeded in talking himself into attacking the lady in the alley when he thought it was broken), but even without that, he just needs to want Buffy more than he wants to kill people. I don't think that's miraculous.

Freddy Bowman
>>16439411

The reason I say it is him fighting his inner demon is because that demon, by it's very nature, wants Slayers dead and evil to prevail over good. But Spike is often doing the opposite. I don't think the chip alone explains it all by any measure.

Jarrod Wild
>>16439563

Yeah I mentioned safe words in Discord last night (we were having a Dead Things discussion). They are definitely engaging in BDSM behavior, and trading between who's sub and who's dom. A safe word would be a good idea.

Tammy L. Faulkner

And now u understand why ppl had been so annoyed by little miss sunshine😶 she makes ppl really want to just slap the crap outta her.

Tammy L. Faulkner

Oh... Than thank for fixing ur POP Willow... It was a little pushy at my wannabe OCD.

Jessica Hartley

I generally agree with you RE: the sex scene in the bronze. I would add though that coerced consent isn’t true consent. I don’t feel like Buffy actually wanted to have sex with him, but he wore her down and she was too emotionally drained to bother stopping him, even though she could have. That doesn’t make it rape, but it’s also not right for Spike to have done and still abusive behaviour. It’s a complicated scene and I don’t think there’s any one correct interpretation of how to read it, if someone feels like the consent issue is murky there then that’s a valid take imo.

Ryan Wilson
>>16439411

Have to agree with you Freddy but put a little bit more to that. Because Spike doesn't have a soul he doesn't have a conscience he is going on pure emotion of wanting to be with Buffy in anyway shape or form. So when the relationship takes the shape o​f a sexual​ relationship and progresses to a negative-aggressive relationship, he doesn't understand what he is doing is wrong. Take him and Dru. I forgot what episode it was but I basically remembe​r what he said he had to do to get her back: " I'll find her, I'll torture her until she loves me and take me back." The trio on the other hand ar​e just asses, they know what they are doing is wrong they just don't give a shit. Which with Jonathan shocks me because of the many times Buffy has helped him and treated him with respect.

Amarantax
>>16439563

This is a very good point, Spuffy has been experimenting with a lot of kinky stuff, doing it in public is just another kink. In the Bronze scene you can hear Buffy saying "please, don´t" and Spike replaying "stop me" then she says nothing, that feels like a consent to me especially in that situation when the mood was all dirty and kinky.

Freddy Bowman
>>16439411

Yes and no to the "he doesn't understand what he's doing wrong." Sometimes he acts like he really doesn't get it, but then at other times he does seem to be conscious that what he is doing is wrong. Deep down I think he knows when he's wrong, but he's just basically powerless to stop himself most of the time. That's where I think the demon, not having a soul, thing comes in. He's all but helpless, yet he keeps fighting to do what's right many times.

Bodertz
>>16439411

"The reason I say it is him fighting his inner demon is because that demon, by it's very nature, wants Slayers dead and evil to prevail over good." Who's to say that's true? Demons existed long before Slayers. Angelus has never killed a Slayer, per Fool for Love. Harmony makes plans to kill the Slayer because she figures that's what vampires do, but I don't think it's an intrinsic part of being a vampire. Spike wants Buffy, so he tries to act the way she would want him to. Spike starts killing Slayers to impress Drusilla. He acts the way she wanted him to.

Jarrod Wild
>>16439563

The "stop me" from Spike goes all the way back to the beginning of Wrecked. She actually says loudly "no" and "stop" and Spike responds with "make me", and then she kisses him and immediately engages in sexual activity with him (until he mentions it's more fun to bang a slayer than to kill one). She was setting a precedent for him to continue his behavior. Not saying it's her fault, but Spike being what he is can't grasp that sometimes no really means no. It could get him in trouble.

Freddy Bowman
>>16439411

Maybe not straight up kill a Slayer. But certainly would want the Slayer eliminated. And surely wouldn't love a Slayer. That's unique.

Jarrod Wild
>>16441856

This episode is really what did it. I can understand and accept Dawn's behavior in most other episodes, but in this one she was let off the hook way too easy. She got everyone trapped in the house, acted like a dick the whole time, was finally exposed as a klepto, and instead it was Halfrek teaching everyone a lesson about ignoring Dawn, and they mostly accepted it without rebuttal.

John Boehmer
>>16441856

I'll admit that Dawn's behavior was way overboard in this episode but I think it was a symptom of all the terrible things that have happened to her finally coming to a head. I mean, she found out she was the Key and that her entire life was a fabrication, her mom died, she was abducted, terrorized and nearly killed by a hellgod, her sister died, her defacto parents (Willow and Tara) split up, she was injured in a car accident, she found out that Social Services had threatened Buffy's guardianship, all the while she's been stealing anything not nailed down and NOBODY NOTICED ANYTHING WAS WRONG. She has suffered a lifetime worth of trauma in about 18 months time.

Tammy L. Faulkner
>>16441856

I get all that... But she was a brat from the start. Yes she has been through a lot, but so had Buffy. Shes made from Buffy... But she acts nothing like her and can't handle not having attention on her. Yes THIS was her biggest blah moment, but she was still the MOST disliked character for a reason. I never hated her character, but she was just plain rotten at times. And its not because shes a teen, it because she's a STEREOTYPE teen. Oh and it wasnt her fault they got stuck in the house... She wasnt aware of the demon... She just tends to make a lot of dumb decisions.

Bisibia
>>16441946

True-ish... but their entire relationship has been this. I'm not sure why everyone pinpoints this scene as overboard. The first time they get it on, they're literally punching and throwing each other. She goes invisible in Gone, and he tells her to stop, and she keeps going. He tell hers in another episode to "make me" stop after she says to, and he just keeps going with it, and she goes with it too. This thing they have going has been void of real verbal consent since it began... I'm not excusing real life lack of verbal consent, btw, just stating that they've both accepted what this was from the beginning. They've both made the decision to continually let this happen, and the word "no" has never meant anything to them.

homoerotic 80s volleyball scene personified

I get what you're saying, but at the same time she's only 15 years old. While I think she was a bit cruel this episode, I do understand where she's coming from.

igor.kh

Shan, I think you're right to say that the two situations are different. To say otherwise is to ignore all nuance in human communication (or human-vampire communication :-) ). Spike and Buffy clearly know each other extremely well. They have a complicated relationship where they both test each other's limits, sometimes rather clumsily. Though, at least they do give each other chances to stop before escalating their behavior (I give the writers credit for putting these moments in, like in the Smashed, Invisible Buffy or the Spike/Buffy at the Bronze scenes). Spike and Buffy's relationship is not the picture of a healthy one, and they do regret/disapprove of their own of each other's actions upon some reflection. But I would say that it is more like regretting having that extra scoop of ice cream when later staring at the bathroom scale (though with somewhat higher stakes). In that case, there's no question of consent "in the moment". I like the suggestion above that they are simply inept enough to have neglected to choose a "safe word". And yes, that is DANGEROUS! That's one more reason for us the viewers to conclude that their relationship is not healthy. In any case what is beyond dispute is that the Trio's actions were disgusting and wrong.

James MacDonald
>>16439245

Relationships are complex, though. It's not as simple as: "Person A says 'no' once; therefore, any sexual activity that occurs thereafter is assault." That simply isn't the reality of how relationships work. Sometimes one partner isn't in the mood, but that doesn't mean persuading them is akin to assault. I don't see why sex is viewed differently to every other pleasure-seeking activity. For example, if you initially don't want to go to the cinema, am I assaulting you if I try and persuade you to go? I see no reason why sex should be viewed differently to every other activity we use for pleasure. Sex has some weird status within our culture that separates it from every other pleasurable activity, for some reason.

4Tom4lepus4

"Why do you always have to hang out with Buffy's friends?" Because Dawn is a main character, duh?! She only hangs out with other main characters, maybe recurring characters if she has a good day but everything else is beneath her! DUH :D

cil

I see where those commenters are coming from though. It's a slippery slope and they definitely make a valid point. The moment a person says no to someone's sexual advances, the person should immediately back off. If they continue making advances after being told no...that's sexual harassment. There's really no way to dress it up. I know you like Spike but that doesn't excuse the scenes you referred to where Buffy initially told him no and he kept trying any way. A person having the mindset of "Oh, even though they said no I'm going to keep trying until they change their mind" is a very dangerous way of thinking.

James MacDonald
>>16447382

This doesn't make sense to me. If someone ever tries to convince you to do something you initially don't want to do, is it harassment? I don't see why sex is treated differently to everything else we do in life. Certainly, if someone persists for long enough, that qualifies as harassment. But simply trying to convince your partner to do something they're not initially in the mood for (whatever that may be) is a very low bar for harassment. If that's the bar you're setting, almost every man and woman has harassed his or her partner at some point.

S144

Where is As You Were?

Anonymous
>>16446996

I thought it was because people at school think she's weird for cutting herself during her key days so she isolated herself from them and feels that only the Scoobies understand her.

Anonymous

Did anyone bring up the fact that the false memories of Dawn put in Joyce's head could have caused her aneurysm?

Eric Zebrowski

I suppose everyone knows someone like the character Sophie in this episode. Is allergic to everything and/or religious or very straight edge. By the way Clem Rules!

Amarantax

I love the Halfrek / Spike mini moment, I would really like to know more about them, was she a demon when she met William? did Spike recognize her? if he did why he hid it, was he embarrassed by who he was? so many questions. I would love an episode of only them.

Bria Bey
>>16449767

I don't think she was a demon when she knew him based on what we know. I think maybe she became a demon later on. They both definitely recognized each other based on the scene that was shown it they denied knowing each other because of the awkwardness and it was a pst life for the both of them.

cil
>>16447382

If someone says no, partner or not (and in 'Smashed', Spike wasn't Buffy's "partner") -- it's really not that difficult to just say okay and walk away. I've seen it done hundreds of times. It's weird that our society normalizes harassment and tries to mask it as "persistence".

James MacDonald
>>16447382

It's perfectly fine to just walk away, but being persistent does not immediately equate to harassment. At some point in your life, surely you've convinced someone to do something that they weren't in the mood for? Whether it be convincing someone to go shopping, watch a television show, go out to eat, etc. It's something we all do. If we do it to the point of being a nuisance or threatening, that's unquestionably harassment. That's not the same as briefly trying to convince someone to change their mind and do <insert activity="">. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm something of a people pleaser. Upon request, I routinely do things for other people to make them happy, even if I'm not in the mood to do said thing. If we start redefining that as harassment, we're going to remove any semblance of altruism from interpersonal relationships. </insert>

MittenCrab

I just love seeing ASR's superpower in action. A character appears on screen for a moment, maybe in the background, maybe blurred by motion. The brow furrows, the head tilts and the correct, unerring identification of the actor/character is made. It's uncanny! A post-Youtube career in law enforcement surely beckons. Oh, and I love the series specific pop dolls and DVDs in the background. The absence of the clothes rack is now less keenly felt.

Jessica Hartley
>>16441946

I think this scene gets pinpointed because it’s the first one where Buffy looks visibly unhappy about what’s going on. In the past there’s been no verbal consent, but then both parties have gotten into it and it’s been a moot point. Here she doesn’t so much participate as just let it happen to her in a sort of vacant, out of body-ish way. It feels uncomfortable to watch, whatever technical definition you want to use to say it’s the same as the others, and it’s definitely an escalation in the dangerousness of their relationship.

cil
>>16447382

Are you really comparing convincing someone to go shopping with convincing someone to have sex by consistently putting hands on them after they've tried to pushed you away? Not the same thing at all. If you think the latter is okay...we'll have to agree to disagree because we clearly have different sets of morals....AND that is where I exit this convo but have fun debating with the others :)

James MacDonald
>>16447382

It's obviously not OK to paw and grope people. That's not what I'm referring to. I'm talking about verbally convincing someone to do something. For example, convincing your partner to take you shopping. It's something we've all done and it's something we've all been subjected to. My only point is that sex should be viewed the same as any other activity. If my partner convinces me to take her shopping after I initially declined, I'm not going to accuse her of harassment. Sex should be viewed in a similar fashion. But anyway, have a good day. :)

John Sturchio

what happened to "as you were"?

FernWithy

Lots to unpack... First, the Spuffy issue has a lot, first and foremost that, given their goal seemed to eventually be (no more on that), they were kind of asking for trouble going the writing route they did. I know, the idea is that this <i>is</i> dark, that this is a relationship with an unsouled creature, and it was getting out of hand, but they were trying to have that cake and eat it, too. I think in some ways, it was trying to hit the same kind of beats that 50 Shades did (though Buffy did it much better--the whole thing looks healthy in comparison), with the forbidden, dark, kinky sort of vibe going on. I think the takeaway was <i>supposed</i> to be that Buffy was forbidding herself something that was really what she wanted, though that can be... problematic for the obvious reasons. The general idea up until this point is that Buffy had been denying her feelings because she was afraid of what her friends would think, but that there was nothing wrong wanting to give in to it, and she should stop being ashamed. It was muddy, but it was there. Only they weren't exactly convinced of it themselves, and went to a totally different weird place. The fact that she could stop him <i>is</i> relevant, because she does, repeatedly, right before--as often as not--initiating sex. And the fact is, she also beats the living hell out him in the same episode, leaving him looking something like he did after Glory tortured him. No one is taking home relationship trophies on this one, and at least Spike has the excuse of not having a soul. I think there were a lot of assumptions made about how people were "supposed" to react, just like with the Faith/Riley part, where the writers seemed to be incapable of recognizing that Riley was victimized by it, or what the big deal was (they seemed to treat it as Buffy having been cheated on, and Buffy having the issue that he didn't recognize the alien in her body... not that Riley was effectively coerced into a sexual act with a complete stranger). It was a misstep, and at some point, I decided to just hit "reset" in my head, say, "You know, the writers screwed up," and take whatever fix Joss wanted to give for it later on. Writers are human. They make mistakes. They made a lot of them here. Which brings us to Dawn in this episode. In general, I'm indifferent to Dawn. I never liked the darker turn she heralded in the show, but mostly, I found her to be an okay character. This little After School Special version, though, reeks of, "OMG, we need to write a bottle episode and we need to work out this Dawn thing, so Dawn will be SO MAD that she wishes everyone into the house, and they'll be stuck, but I guess that means she'll have to whine like a spoiled eight-year-old, and that the other friends she used to have are gone." I could buy that, after Halloween, she's not friends with Janis anymore. But going full on with the melodrama was cringey in a big way, even for a teenager. When Tara says something about everyone going through it, I just wanted someone to point out that, in the time we spent with these characters as teenagers, they mostly wisecracked their way through the apocalypse. (Reminds me of "Band Candy," when Buffy says, "They're acting like a bunch of us," re: candy-high adults, and Willow says, "I don't act like that.") I feel, in a lot of these episodes, like we need Oz back to make wry observations. Basically, they lost their sense of humor entirely. Except for Tara and the muscle cramp. Dawn was behaving the way she was because the writers required it of her, not because it was a natural outgrowth of her character, so I roll my eye and wait for her to get back on track when they come to their senses. I feel the same about most of Willow's arc (not all--she <i>is</i> a control freak, and I absolutely believe she'd try to arrange things to her liking more than most). For me, a great deal of this season feels disjointed and clumsy and exhausted, like it's just not coming together. It's like reading a super-angsty YA novel, where the heroine tries to kill herself because her boyfriend didn't call, and I just want to say, "HEH?"

John Sturchio
>>16457206

no worries, my patreon feed had previously had glitches so I wasn't sure if it had already been uploaded or not. that's the only reason I asked

Paul Gibson

while I personally don't think there is a major consent issue as much as a just generally Toxic relationship issue, using perceived physical strength of one partner over the other as a barometer to judge consent is seriously problematic logic

Bruce Trogdon

More than about Dawn having other friends, I think “People have a tendency to go away, and, I miss them” is the point of the episode. Hank, Joyce, Giles, Buffy, Tara. Last episode it was Buffy who almost went away again. In “Gone”, the thing that made Dawn most angry was when big sister caught her sneaking into the house late and Buffy just didn't care. She's been stealing things for nearly a year now but what does she have to do to get anyone to care about her? Last episode built on that – at least from Dawn's POV: “You're never here. You can't even stand to be around me.” Sometimes a person will imagine that her family doesn't want her around, but in this case it isn't all in Dawn's imagination. The episode isn't just about Dawn but about the relationship between Dawn and Buffy. Even though they don't spend a lot of time together in this episode, the scenes they have are really good, IMO and lead to another step forward for Buffy.

Bruce Trogdon

The Buffy and Katrina situations are different but they lead to the same place. Someone (Spike/Warren) wants something from someone else (Buffy/Katrina) that they don't want to give. Katrina is like a comatose patient who has no control over what Warren is doing with her body. She doesn't even have the ability to verbally object to anything he does to her. Buffy is like an alcoholic who has said – more than once – that she knows she shouldn't have another drink. I know that she's physically capable of NOT drinking it and she knows she shouldn't drink it, so what's the harm if I keep filling up her glass with Blondie Bear Whiskey? It just helps her ignore the things she's trying to ignore.

Claire Eyles (edited)

Comment edits

2021-07-09 12:45:11 In regards to the difference between the Spike/Buffy scene &amp; what the Trio did - I've been in a similar situation to the Spike/Buffy scenario &amp; to imply that was rape I think takes away from the impact of the word/event. Basically I was upstairs at nightclub, looking down over the dancefloor, noone else was around and a girl I was kinda 'seeing' at the time comes up to me and you know we started getting a bit touchy feely, hands were going where they probably shouldn't in a public place - so anyway there's me going, "No, stop, come on someone might come up here and see us" (also me *kiss kiss kiss, grope grope*)..."Come on, no, we can't, we really need to stop" (still continuing to play tonsil hockey and feel each other up, with no clear indication that actual stopping will be taking place any time soon) -- and then I had a moment of clarity at which point I kinda gently pushed her away, and said something to the effect of, "Okay, no, I mean, it we need to stop right now, we can go somewhere more private if you want, but not here" - at which point she was like "Okay, fair enough" and then we arranged to meet up later on (which disappointingly ended up falling through). But the point is, the first two times I said 'No', I said it while continuing to engage in a pretty passionate embrace with her, giving every indication that I kinda new we shouldn't be going at it in a semi-public place, but at the same time I really did not want her to stop doing what she was doing. I know the situation with Spike and Buffy was different because of the whole self loathing/depression angle, but to say that scene was rape is like saying my experience was rape and that's just wrong imo.
2018-10-20 08:36:33 In regards to the difference between the Spike/Buffy scene & what the Trio did - I've been in a similar situation to the Spike/Buffy scenario & to imply that was rape I think takes away from the impact of the word/event. Basically I was upstairs at nightclub, looking down over the dancefloor, noone else was around and a girl I was kinda 'seeing' at the time comes up to me and you know we started getting a bit touchy feely, hands were going where they probably shouldn't in a public place - so anyway there's me going, "No, stop, come on someone might come up here and see us" (also me *kiss kiss kiss, grope grope*)..."Come on, no, we can't, we really need to stop" (still continuing to play tonsil hockey and feel each other up, with no clear indication that actual stopping will be taking place any time soon) -- and then I had a moment of clarity at which point I kinda gently pushed her away, and said something to the effect of, "Okay, no, I mean, it we need to stop right now, we can go somewhere more private if you want, but not here" - at which point she was like "Okay, fair enough" and then we arranged to meet up later on (which disappointingly ended up falling through). But the point is, the first two times I said 'No', I said it while continuing to engage in a pretty passionate embrace with her, giving every indication that I kinda new we shouldn't be going at it in a semi-public place, but at the same time I really did not want her to stop doing what she was doing. I know the situation with Spike and Buffy was different because of the whole self loathing/depression angle, but to say that scene was rape is like saying my experience was rape and that's just wrong imo.

In regards to the difference between the Spike/Buffy scene & what the Trio did - I've been in a similar situation to the Spike/Buffy scenario & to imply that was rape I think takes away from the impact of the word/event. Basically I was upstairs at nightclub, looking down over the dancefloor, noone else was around and a girl I was kinda 'seeing' at the time comes up to me and you know we started getting a bit touchy feely, hands were going where they probably shouldn't in a public place - so anyway there's me going, "No, stop, come on someone might come up here and see us" (also me *kiss kiss kiss, grope grope*)..."Come on, no, we can't, we really need to stop" (still continuing to play tonsil hockey and feel each other up, with no clear indication that actual stopping will be taking place any time soon) -- and then I had a moment of clarity at which point I kinda gently pushed her away, and said something to the effect of, "Okay, no, I mean, it we need to stop right now, we can go somewhere more private if you want, but not here" - at which point she was like "Okay, fair enough" and then we arranged to meet up later on (which disappointingly ended up falling through). But the point is, the first two times I said 'No', I said it while continuing to engage in a pretty passionate embrace with her, giving every indication that I kinda new we shouldn't be going at it in a semi-public place, but at the same time I really did not want her to stop doing what she was doing. I know the situation with Spike and Buffy was different because of the whole self loathing/depression angle, but to say that scene was rape is like saying my experience was rape and that's just wrong imo.

Joris Masson
>>16461510

This exactly ! Rape is not only defined by consent, it's also defined by abusing the psychological or physical state of a person. Buffy doesn't want to sleep with Spike, but she needs it, or feels so, because she's in a deep depression and she thinks it's the only thing keeping her "alive". This create a toxic situation where Spike gets cockier and cockier and her "no" start to mean less and less to him...

Shashank

The main thing I got from reading all these thoughtful and passionate comments about consent is that we need more agreed upon words. An either or consent/nonconsenting though very important just isn’t enough for most folks to make sense of sexuality. There seems to be a spectrum from transparent consent to rape, and in between there is a lot of activities of varying moral quality. On the negative side: Emotional coercion, emotional abuse, social pressure, physical intimidation, varying degrees of incapacity to give consent……and many more while there is also a more positive spectrum: playfulness, seduction, teasing, roleplaying, bdsm, unhealthy but consenting relationships…and so on. I don’t think it’s good when all those different types of negative behaviors are classified as the same kind and severity of abuse. It makes words like rape have less meaning and impact…..which is horrible. It can also muddy the water in dealing with and talking about more grey areas like when seduction can become emotional coercion and when it’s simply playful and exciting. There are so many interesting questions to explore which require a lot more agreed upon words. I realize this isn’t exactly taking a position, but that’s what came to mind while reading all these comments.

4Tom4lepus4

Honestly, I kinda love Halfrek. She was so funny at the end of this episode :D

peggin
>>16463421

I agree. Consent has to do with a lot more than just the words "yes" and "no". People can say "no" and not really mean it (if they say no, you should assume they do mean it and stop until/unless they say otherwise, but if someone says "no" then grabs you and kisses you, I think it's safe to say that particular "no" didn't really mean "no"). They can also say "yes" and not really mean it (if your boss tells you "sleep with me or you're fired", and you say "yes" because you can't afford to lose your job, that's not really consent and in many if not most places it would still be considered rape, despite your verbal consent). Focusing on "yes" and "no" to determine consent is an important part of the conversation, but not the entire conversation.

Ian Victor

Love this episode, and loved your reaction. Tara is awesome in this one. :) I agree with what you said at the end about the Spuffy examples being completely different to the Warren/Katrina situation. That said, I do think that at this point Buffy and Spike's relationship is unhealthy. *But* on the other hand there's still a part of me that can't help but enjoy seeing them together. So my views on Spuffy are admittedly somewhat paradoxical. As for people having a go at you for shipping Spuffy, the truth is that it can be easy for those of us who have seen the show many times over to forget how we felt the first time we watched it. And sometimes certain things can become a little more clear in hindsight, upon subsequent re-watches.

Ian Victor
>>16449767

I'm not sure that this is officially considered canon, but according to the comic book "Spike: Old Times", she was already a vengeance demon when she met William. In that story, there's a flashback from the same night of the party, after she told him he's beneath her. Whereas the "contemporary" part of the episode occurs...some considerable time after the party at Buffy's house (I can't say exactly when as it would be a spoiler for Shan).

Amarantax
>>16449767

Wow i havn´ ´´t read the Spike comics, only the Buffy continuation ones, I will totally check them out. Thaks ;D

seekingoutfriday
>>16468431

Per your last paragraph, I agree. To me, I don't ship Spuffy in the moments (despite I do LOVE their small cute moments). I ship them because of their entire story. I can't see all of Spuffy until I see where they begin and end. For instance, I didn't ship Spuffy in season 2, but I love their team up and their banter and all that make Spuffy. But after I've seen all of Spuffy, I look back at season 2 with a different eye. If that makes sense.

HelloPatreon

I'm sorry people were giving you a hard time saying that the Spuffy moment in the Bronze was equivalent to what Warren did to Katrina. The Spuffy moment wasn't a happy scene but it was more twisted and conflicted, on both sides. I believe Spike both selfishly wants Buffy to be in the dark with him and yet also seems to think that that is what is best overall for Buffy herself. Buffy, for better or worse has been behaving in a confusing manner. (She is depressed and wants to hurt herself enough to be able to feel something, I think...) Buffy has told Spike no many times and yet she has also often been the aggressor/initiator in their sexual relationship. Back in "Smashed" when they were both fighting with each other, Buffy kissed Spike. And after Buffy told Spike it would never happen again in "Gone," when she was invisible she practically held him up against the wall before Spike even realized it was her. When it comes to a fight, I have to give Buffy an edge, she is stronger than any vampire, even vampires like Spike and Angel. So in terms of emotions, who has the upper edge? Buffy is depressed and Spike has an all consuming love for her. She will take what she needs from him and he will take what he can get in hope that she can feel something more for him. We know this from Buffybot, Spike doesn't want a sex-slave, it is nowhere close to the truth. Which brings us back to Warren and Katrina. Warren used a memory and mind-control spell to make Katrina into an overt sex-slave. (Complete with calling Warren "Master...") Given the method (a magic memory/mindcontrol spell) and the purpose (to make sure his girlfriend doesn't leave him again and continue to perform emotional/sexual labor for him), Warren's actions with Katrina best mirror Willow's actions to Tara, not Spike's actions to Buffy. Again, especially as this episode shows Tara standing up for Willow, I don't have a problem with a redemption arc for Willow or anyone. It just bugs me that both the characters/the narrative of the story only recognizes one of Willow's crimes: her magic (drug) addiction, while completely ignoring the other (her mind/body violation of Tara.) If anyone should bring it up again, it should be Willow herself, to express her guilt and regret over it. On the subject of Tara: I really enjoyed her this episode, her trying to playfully keep Buffy and Spike apart with the muscle cramp comments. However, I don't know why she mused aloud how cute the set-up dude was to Spike. I mean, it was funny, sure. But what was that meant to accomplish. On Dawn: I feel both annoyed and bad for her here. I mean sure her loud screeches can be annoying and the way she expresses her emotions can be childish, but as far as I can see her biggest crime in this episode ( aside from the kleptomania which is another thing entirely) was bottling up her emotions and then expressing some feelings to the school guidance counselor. Its not like she wanted to force people to be stuck there like that. I don't know. I guess I'm just feeling sympathetic for Dawn's situation, despite not liking her attitude about it...?

HelloPatreon
>>16439245

An important point that Shan hasn't addressed herself yet, is that part of "Buffy's body is saying yes" narrative is coming form the observable fact that Buffy has often been the sexual aggressor/initiator. @ James MacDonald I think the answer here is sexism. Sexism is a double edged sword. As much as I agree with your point of persuasion is not equivalent to assault, because of the sexism in society and abusive boyfriends and husbands who may try to use emotional blackmail (like if you love me you would have sex with me), while this point is technically true- it must be observed on a case by case basis. And other hand, while sex is important and rape is definitely a serious crime, I believe that it is sexism that makes people say things like: "the worst thing that can ever happen to a woman is being raped." After all it is the type of statement that can be tied perfectly to the idea that a woman's most important asset is her virginity/purity. @ Azak with a topic like this I believe it very important to talk a lot this. Consent cannot be intuitively understood after all. The key is being tactful and thoughtful.

Amarantax

I kind of feel a bit tired of comment again to "Dead Things" but goosh there is so many things to explore in this episode, some of the reasons why I love this season, it forces you to double check, investigate, find new perspectives and understand things in a different way, after 20 years even. But well, I was seeing the dream sequence of Buffy and there it was Spike the one who change into Katrina and vice versa, of course, is the guilt Buffy feel, but here we see the handcuffs, as someone is trapped, and is Spike who wears them. I think in this situation is Buffy the one who has power over Spike and use it, he is a demon, evil, I know but he is powerless in his love for her, she doesn´t love him, just use him, and he takes it. The easy black and white are gone in this season and Buffy is wearing a deep grey, I think to remember (please correct me if im wrong) that Joss said in an interview that Buffy was the Warren in this episode.

HelloPatreon
>>16477864

Buffy was definitely engaging in some abusive behavior this season, it is just not as clear because of the double-edged sword of sexism which makes people see only female victims.

Andrew Pulrang

I love Clem! He's not an important character, but he goes along with the trend in Angel where they are showing that some demons are sort of OK.

Andrew Pulrang

The only thing I'll add about the whole consent issue is that I think this is one of the weakest spots in the Buffyverse, (at least in the current perspective), largely because consent is understood a little differently now than it commonly was when these shows came out. I do think we are meant to question consent issues all around, including with Spike and Buffy, but the whole thing is handled a little more loosely by Joss and the writers. In a way it's a good thing that despite this, we can see where there might be contradictions and inconsistencies, even if we don't make hard and fast judgments about them in each case. This show is supposed to be complex enough to have real discussions and disagreements.

Melazond

This is when the whole "magic as drugs" metaphor really gets funky. I guess if you had someone with a terrible wound and you wanted to lessen the pain, having some morphine around would be good. Or having the tools around? I guess having the gear could be helpful... It just is dumb in this situation.

Vicky N
>>16461510

To go further with your analogy, Warren is the one what put Katrina in a “coma” to get what he wants from her. Spike never tries to control her mind or her body to get what he wants.

Melazond
>>16447382

Seriously, they just never defined the parameters of their relationship. They just need a safe word. They obviously like it rough and they like saying no and meaning yes. that is a part of a bdsm type relationship. They just never clarified. Because it's been organic and strange...

Ian Victor
>>16468431

Yes, that makes perfect sense :) I too look back at season 2 with a different perspective now. Having a broad overview of the entire series does put a different spin-on things. Or in some cases even during the first viewing, once certain things occur. When I first watched season 6, I'd realised by this point that their relationship is quite unhealthy, but I'll admit that I probably shipped them for a little longer than I should've done. Partly because I had it in my head that Buffy was happy...but I now realise that this happiness is quite superficial, thus unhealthy. But also because I was just enjoying the dynamics between them (and still do). So I suppose that, in a way, I wasn't ready to accept that they're not good for one another. This is why I've only recently started mentioning on here that I think their relationship is unhealthy. If I'd have mentioned it earlier in the season, I feel that would've been unfair to Shan, because it's a view based on knowledge gained from episodes she hadn't yet seen. Whereas I feel like some fans are being a little too harsh on Shan, based on information from certain episodes she's not jet seen.

Bruce Trogdon
>>16461510

Aw, Vicky Ngoyi nice. my mind never took that next step to Warren being the one who caused the 'coma'. But I disagree about Spike. He didn't cause Buffy's situation but as soon as he found a weakness - his chip didn't recognize Buffy as human - he began using that to manipulate her away from her friends and into the darkness with him. Because of Buffy's emotional fragility it only took him about 10 minutes to get her to initiate what would become their first sexual contact.

Eric

Shan is not drinking Pepsi. :O

Scarlett Monrow

Why no one tried to use the phone and call for help? Like calling Giles? Who, with Council's help, could find someone in Sunnydale to deliver necessary magic and medical supplies. And about Willow keeping emergency supplies: it's better to risk relapse than to risk death of many people, including the Slaver that saves the world, a lot. But it would be better if Willow from the start, gave the supplies to Buffy to hide in the house from her, just to be safe.