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Antikythera Fragment #11 - Ancient Tool Technology - The World's First Precision Lathe? (Patreon)

Published:
2023-12-31 05:36:42
Edited:
2024-01-18 19:03:51
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Content

Rosin up your bow folks, it's time to have a look at the lathe that I think was very likely used to construct the Antikythera Mechanism - Do please enjoy!

Thank you all so much for your support this year, and I wish you the very best for 2024.

Cheers,

Chris.

ps Be sure to come and say hello on the Clickspring Discord, every Sunday at 2200UTC. Lots of makers, sharing a love for all things creative - https://discord.gg/KaG6bxQzZY

Direct links to the video -

Vimeo: https://vimeo.com/898845102/b2eae2fae4

Youtube: https://youtu.be/SVTcs3ziNJI

-------------- Video Notes: ---------------

References/Further Reading:

Posidonius - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posidonius

Geminus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geminus

Hipparchus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hipparchus

Vitruvius - https://www.chenarch.com/images/arch-texts/0000-Vitruvius-50BC-Ten-Books-of-Architecture.pdf

Cicero, DE NATVRA - https://web.archive.org/web/20070316053820/http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/cicero/nd2.shtml

Metal Working in the Ancient World (https://doi.org/10.2307/500498)- Author(s): Herbert Maryon – 1949

Herbert Maryon - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Maryon

Wright, M. T. 2011. “The Antikythera Mechanism: Reconstruction as a Medium for Research and Publication.”

"Clockwork Before The Clock" D Price Horological Journal vol.098 No.01 Jan 1956

Stone Vessel Making - http://www.oocities.org/unforbidden_geology/ancient_egyptian_stone_vase_making.html

The Woodturning Lathe: A Brief History - https://www.highlandwoodworking.com/woodnews/december_2005/employee_contribution.htm

The Ancient Craft of the Pole Lathe Woodturner. - https://www.academia.edu/7511378/The_Ancient_Craft_of_the_Pole_Lathe_Woodturner

Tomb of Petosiris: https://core.ac.uk/reader/80518060

Ancient greek furniture - https://www1.up.poznan.pl/furnituredesign/sites/default/files/u8/56-62_Ancient-greek-furniture_-source-of-inspiration-for-the-designers-and-manufacturers-of-modern-times.pdf

Woodturning with Moroccan bow lathe - https://youtu.be/RMQrz1gJy9M

Moroccan Bow Lathe - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnv0DAR_gWA

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-To97wy-WU-o/TpMEKgb-d-I/AAAAAAAAArU/Zfp6G-Kkhpg/s1600/Artisan+%25234.jpg

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4G5eJPO4dek/WvMfYzOlWGI/AAAAAAAAB_Y/68koyB7VZIoHDFMy-RtLmicSG3Z4UpboACEwYBhgL/s1600/P1190313%2Br.jpg

Files

The World’s First Precision Lathe - Constructing The Antikythera Mechanism

Rosin up your bow folks, it's time to have a look at the lathe that I think was very likely used to construct the Antikythera Mechanism - Do please enjoy! Cheers, Chris. ________________________________________________________ A very special thank you to Patrons: Sinking Valley Woodworks Glenn Trewitt Christopher Warnock Guy Loughridge Charles Frodsham & Co. Peter John Richardson Adam Slagle Robin Haerens L'Enfant Watch Company C. A. Patrick Voigt Steven R. Crider Gary Levario Mark Coburn Pete Askew Jeff Armstrong Ralph McCoy Jim Popwell Kaedenn Bradley Pirtle PaxAndromeda Thomas Eriksen Michael Hardel Tim Ball Grant Michener Jonathan Teegarden Steve Hossner RuKiddin06 John Maksim RobinP556 Lea Bruder Armagus John S Dilsaver matt mcparland ________________________________________________________ References/Further Reading: Posidonius - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posidonius Geminus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geminus Hipparchus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hipparchus Vitruvius - https://www.chenarch.com/images/arch-texts/0000-Vitruvius-50BC-Ten-Books-of-Architecture.pdf Cicero, DE NATVRA - https://web.archive.org/web/20070316053820/http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/cicero/nd2.shtml#88 Metal Working in the Ancient World ( https://doi.org/10.2307/500498 ) - Author(s): Herbert Maryon – 1949 Herbert Maryon - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Maryon Wright, M. T. 2011. “The Antikythera Mechanism: Reconstruction as a Medium for Research and Publication.” "Clockwork Before The Clock" D Price Horological Journal vol.098 No.01 Jan 1956 Stone Vessel Making - http://www.oocities.org/unforbidden_geology/ancient_egyptian_stone_vase_making.html The Woodturning Lathe: A Brief History - https://www.highlandwoodworking.com/woodnews/december_2005/employee_contribution.htm The Ancient Craft of the Pole Lathe Woodturner. - https://www.academia.edu/7511378/The_Ancient_Craft_of_the_Pole_Lathe_Woodturner Tomb of Petosiris: https://core.ac.uk/reader/80518060 Ancient greek furniture - https://www1.up.poznan.pl/furnituredesign/sites/default/files/u8/56-62_Ancient-greek-furniture_-source-of-inspiration-for-the-designers-and-manufacturers-of-modern-times.pdf Woodturning with Moroccan bow lathe - https://youtu.be/RMQrz1gJy9M Moroccan Bow Lathe - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnv0DAR_gWA https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-To97wy-WU-o/TpMEKgb-d-I/AAAAAAAAArU/Zfp6G-Kkhpg/s1600/Artisan+%25234.jpg https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4G5eJPO4dek/WvMfYzOlWGI/AAAAAAAAB_Y/68koyB7VZIoHDFMy-RtLmicSG3Z4UpboACEwYBhgL/s1600/P1190313%2Br.jpg

Comments

Russell Reckman

Been waiting for years for this video! 😀😀

Jonathan Numer

Spectacular! Thanks for the video.

Sean Kirby

Just watched it. Excellent. :) Presumably this is the tech required for making, or at least fine tuning, the nested tubes. When you first switched ends on the test wood cylinder, I was watching how well it retained its concentricity on the first turned end, and it was smoooooth as. The only lateral motion I could see was due to the whole lathe assembly moving as one. :)

Duncan Luddite
>>125763276

That's the beauty of turning 'between centres'. No matter how often the work is removed, checked, etc., when replaced in the lathe ( or 'Turns' in watchmaker speak for this type of lathe) it will run true :)

Justus Dehegovit

Ending of the year with a bang, I see. I remember how back in the skeleton clock project days you expressed your love for free hand turning, I hope you enjoyed working on this ancient lathe as much as you do on modern ones. Also do not think we overlooked how your videos become more and more cinematic by each upload. I hope this upcoming year brings great fortune and good health to you and your loved ones.

Duncan Luddite

Love the little 'Turns' style lathe Chris! Spectacular. The 'Pole' and 'Bow' style lathes are my favourite; fantastic speed and tool control, and the benefits that come with turning between centres. Yours must be getting close to the absolute basics. I was surprised with your 'twist and fit' method of mounting the work between centres, thinking the work might piff out while being driven, but your vertical action, of course, is at right angles to the 'twist', so doesn't seem to be a problem :) A couple of hints from my experience: make the bow string groove like a short cotton reel so the string can wind back and forth, side to side, instead of rubbing past itself in use. And with your left handed driving, rotate the bow counter clockwise when setting the line around the drive pulley so the line doesn't cross itself and rub. These two modifications should greatly increase the life of the line, and give a much smoother sound and feel to the bowing. Makes me want to go out and make one !!!! My forked branch pole lathe, after a number of years, expired, and I currently have no space for setting up my large (3' bed) collapsible pole lathe, but your little (almost pocket sized) bow lathe is *sooo* cute and basic. Now, off to have a rest before going to the New Years party, later, next door :) Was about to when I saw this video had dropped :D

clickspring
>>125763276

Thank you mate - yes, a key tool for some of the upcoming bits and pieces - Cheers :)

Gregor Shapiro

You turn some brass here. How is bronze for turning? Do the alloys that are suitable for being worked in a lathe have stringent tolerances on their composition or are most tin bronzes good?

clickspring
>>125765962

I would expect so, the cutters handle mild steel well. The Antikythera bronze is low tin, behaves much like a modern brass in the cut, will cover the metallurgy in a future video - Cheers :)

Eike Dreesen

Again, blown away. Top notch content, presentation and production quality. You are unbelievable! Thanks for your work! Happy to be able to witness your journey.

Matthew Thomas

Fantastic work Chris, its really interesting to see how the tools of the time might have worked. Your commitment to the history of the antikythera mechanism is really admirable. Keep up the good work! I wonder if you've considered reaching out to a local museum? Although replicas I'm sure tools of this type would make a really interesting exhibit

clickspring
>>125767241

Thank you Matthew - I'd be happy to let them go at the end of the project, would be nice for it all to go somewhere its going to do some good - Cheers :)

Joni

Very nice. Would be interesting to see a test piece on a CMM or similar to compare the concentricity possible using this lathe.

Scaredyfish

Machinist turned historian - great stuff!

Andre Thackray

Mind blown again ,,,,,,great work Chris.

Andy Pugh

Have you see this video? https://youtu.be/wnv0DAR_gWA It shows a Moroccan using a bow lathe, and to make up for the fact that one hand is working the bow, he uses a foot to help control the chisel. With impressive results.

Sam Bishop

Blimey, Chris! In the depths of an ambitious project like this, you also turn your already fantastic videography up to 11. Are you even human?! 😅 Would love to see some BTS bits about your processes for those great shots at the end. Those kinds of ‘historical’ shots should help the wider audience appreciate the historicity of this project. Either way, as always, fantastic work! You’ve outdone yourself, mate (which is no small feat, let’s face it). I hope you and yours have had a wonderful Christmas and have a very happy new year.

Borislav

Made my year! Awesome

Mech Quillfeather

I can't help but imagine that it would the the apprentice working the bow half the time. "Now get a feel for how it turns while I work this end. Watch me carefully."

Boguslaw Smalec

I must say, the end, with rendered ancient backgroung, gave me warm fuzzies. I hope this would be a new series - a lathe to made a better lathe, which then will make even better lathe, till your reach 19th century technology.

PJ
>>125772479

Absolutely an 11! Would love to know also if he used stock vid, photos or animation to get that with a green screen. Other worldly and simultaneously real world...worth an Emmy, IMHO!

Bob Vines

Chris, can we expect an Antikythera mechanism (itself) video in 2024? It's been a long time!

Iain Deas

Jesus, those are better results I get with my optimum lathe 🤦‍♂️. Just wondering how things are going behind the scenes and if you’ve got plans for more regular content in 2024?

RiderOmega

Years ago I saw a video where Adam Savage referred to the lathe as the only tool that can build itself and wondered why that was. After watching this video I understand that more. Great work as always Chris.

Duncan Luddite
>>125765135

No worries :) With the dog drive pulley, you could set up a piece of timber, wrap the bow cord around that, and widen the groove in the pulley. Keep the edges of the wide groove angled as you have with your 'V' groove; will help with stopping the cord from climbing out in use.

chris grainge

That is phenomenal… this series should be in a museum with the finished replica one day…. On another note, I now need a depthing tool, do you have plans for the one you made??

Duncan Luddite
>>125768372

Turning between centres, like this, is the way to do the most precise turning. You can take the work out, check/measure etc., and put it back in the lathe and it will be just as concentric as before :)

Joni
>>125768372

Yes with drive dogs. My interest was because this is not between centers in the same sense as it will be much more springy and prone to vibration.

James Korman

All through many of the earlier Antikythera series I've asked, wow wouldn't a lathe be a great tool to use here! You've now answered that question and I have few doubts that they wouldn't have had such tools. The people of those days were some great engineers. Thank you Chris for traveling this path!

Duncan Luddite
>>125818308

Chris made a version of the depthing tool, I think (will check) during his pendulum clock build. One moment please...

Duncan Luddite
>>125818308

OK, After spending 1/2 hour searching in vain on the Patreon site, typing in search phrases, and scrolling through, literally, hundreds of posts on the Clickspring channel, often unrelated, I went over to Chris's YouTube Channel and in two minutes had found it. I hate Patreon's new 'look'. Unless I'm missing something, it's really awkward to navigate and find things. This is part one of the depthing tool build. It's a 3 parter. Enjoy. https://youtu.be/q6xovvpuMQo?si=Xdf4QX7q_Np61AOa

Duncan Luddite
>>125818308

Sorry Chris (I blame Fatigue after New Years late to bed) I missed the crucial word "PLANS" in your question. Oops. Please disregard my 'replies'..... :/

Reed Bowman

Wonderful as always - I'm curious about the fixturing of the lathe end trammels (or whatever you call them). Given that you have enough tool pressure to move the whole work piece and the lathe points, how have you fixed those points so they both rotate for inserting the work, and do NOT just rotate out of the way during turning, losing grip on the workpiece? Or is the taper plus the spring force actually sufficient to keep recentering itself in the end countersinks?

clickspring
>>125834429

Great question - No fixing is required, simply jamming a roughly forged square(ish) shape into an undersized hole does the trick. The twist is minimal, gently 'working in' the wood enough to permit tight, limited rotational movement in one direction. The light spring force (when the workpiece is loaded) clicks & holds the prong in place, also making a lightly 'worked in' position. Whilst in operation, no forces act to 'break open' the tool toward the opening direction. Btw, I did not expect this; it was a pleasant emergent property that I noticed whilst making the tool - Cheers :)

Mark Welch

I really appreciate the clarity and rich storytelling that you've woven into this episode. Just amazing.

R3DN3K

Consider my mind blown, that is amazing, video quality and your craftsmanship are just amazing!

Steven Naslund

That lathe reminded me very much of the spring pole lathes I have seen and which are described in some of your references. I think one of those would be very likely available in your time frame and have two distinct advantages that I can see.

Steven Naslund

first they would transmit more power and speed into the work since the throw is much longer than the hand bow. Secondly and more importantly they have better ergonomics keeping both hands free for holding the tools and using the larger leg muscle groups for more power, momentum, and less fatigue during use. Any society that could built a wooden bow would easily have all these principles figure out.

Steven Naslund

Is there any tool marks remaining on any fragments that might imdicate the tool forms used to create them ? I am also wondering if same shafts could be created by bringing a small bar up to temperature and then pulling on the ends like taffy. This comes to my mind as a way to get from a flat to a reasonable round thin rod. If done vertically, the bar should cool reasonably straight and might have a pretty decent surface finish. You might get a meter or more of rod out of a single operation.

Dilapidus
>>125834429

If indeed more holding force were needed, I think the work piece holder you have created can yield some potential clues. Tying a leather strap between the two iron points could be sufficient or a more elaborate method might use the same pinching as your holder does.

Duncan Luddite
>>125854594

I'd like to know when Drawplates were invented, as this is what they excel at. It's a hard steel plate with a graduated series of holes in them, countersunk on the backside. The annealed stock has a taper filed on one end, is coated in either tallow or bee's wax, and it's fed through from the back into the first hole the stock can't quite fit. Then the taper is held in a strong pair of tongs and pulled through. The operation is repeated, hole by hole, with regular annealing, until final dimension is achieved, with a significant increase in length. Tubing is also made this way with a short strip of metal that is cut to a long point at one end for feeding and pulling, The end result is a perfect tube. I've started with a shortish brass strip around 5 - 7mm wide, and ended up with a tube around 1.5mm diam. and a number of times the original length.

Leonard Solomon
>>125834429

That's exactly what I was wondering as well. Your explanation cleared it up nicely.

Peter Carr

My god, this might just be the most awed I've been by one of your videos in a long time. Phenomenal work and research Chris!

Gary Bodnar

Hi Chris, 4th time I have watched this video, Gob smacked, !!! shared this video with lots of my friends, :)

Jack DenHartog

I noticed a bit of a catch 22. A long while ago when you made the pump drills, you used your modern lathe to finish turn and balance the flywheels, but in this case the creation of the lathe needs to come before the pump drill. I suppose it's not hard to imagine the flywheels being roughly balanced using files, then once the lathe has progressed enough, balancing them perfectly in order to improve the accuracy of drilled holes. I love how beautifully simplistic this lathe is and I think I need one, not because there's something I need to make on a lathe but because the lathe is something I need to make. I would love to see the progression from this primitive lathe to the South Bend I use to have and I might just explore this matter myself. Thanks for lighting the fires of inspiration.

Duncan Luddite
>>125768372

And also with the drive cord around the actual work. Vibration is a function of speed, and bow/pole lathe work is so immediate you adjust your speed to avoid it almost without thinking. I've made a couple of pole lathes that are used only between centres (no drive dog), and you can make containers with precise fitted lids etc. and remove the work as often as you wish and it is still perfectly concentric Cheers :)

clickspring
>>125763276

There are no features in the wreckage that I would necessarily describe as 'drawn tubes', although there are several deep drilled holes and several 'collar' shapes, each of which can be accounted for with either the drill or bow lathe, or just simple crude forging. (there are tubes proposed as part of various hypothetical models, but of course no physical evidence of said tubes) Having said that, I recall seeing something recently in my reading regarding drawplates for both wire and tubing in the period. It doesn't relate to the AM, I think it was a jewellery thing? I'll ping it to you if I recall where I saw it... Either way, a drawplate isn't necessary to explain any extant or proposed feature of the AM - Cheers :)

George Speake

Chris what you do here is just wonderful. I’m a retired Methodist preacher. In the 1960’s I repaired clocks in a small shop as summer job from college. One New Testament text book had a picture of this “hunk” of metal found in the Med that looked like clock works to me. Then in the 1980’s that same photo of showed up in the nightly news. By now we know it was Antekythera. In undergraduate and Duke Divinity School we were lead to believe those people from ancient time, the Bible folks, were too ignorant and backward to be able to write or believe. On several occasions I’d ask if this was so, if these people were so backward, how do we have the pyramids and other wonderful artifacts: Dead silence. Your videos are wonderful. I don’t expect you to begin preaching, but putting your work out on YouTube and Vimeo will spread the wonder of ancient skills and human achievement. Thanks again and God bless!

Steven swenson

Re: Lathe , you mention the points being lightly sprung.. are they carburised as the other tools or would mild steel be sufficient? Is it 1/4 or 5/16 stock more or less?