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[Question] About the negotiation system (Patreon)

Published:
2021-01-05 00:48:25
Edited:
2021-01-05 00:51:53
Imported:
2021-01

Content

Hello everyone!

I think some of you might be familiar with the negotiation system we have at the dungeon. We are planning to bring it back to the open world!

Our idea is to have guards and bandits around that Kalyskah could bribe in case she gets defeated. The idea is that she would be able to give them some coins, items or attempt to seduce or to taunt them. The thing is, to make this system more effective, we have to make being defeated in combat more severe, so the player will rather negotiate with the enemy than losing something. Because well... Kalyskah can't actually die, so negotiating for her life doesn't work. If someone tries to threaten her life she'll just laugh. But I'll get into more details further on this post.

The plan is to add checkpoints around the world; coffins that Kalyskah can rest inside and respawn from there in case she gets defeated for good. The flow we have in mind is:

  • 1 - Kalyskah gets defeated by a rational enemy. Negotiation dialogue pops up.
  • 2 - Kalyskah can bribe, seduce, taunt (so she can turn the table and finish one of them), or just try to use her charisma to getaway.
  • 3.1 - They can accept, which will render the enemies passive for a few seconds.
  • 3.2 - They can reject, which will make them finish her. The thing is, Kalyskah is immortal. It's not easy to kill her because she is way much more resilient than any vampire. Cutting off her head or burning her to ashes wouldn't do much, just slow her down. That's why the defeat screen says "Return to Darkness" instead of "You Died". So when they perform a finishing move on her, some hours would pass and she would reform her body on the nearest checkpoint (Coffin) that the player interacted with. (People who know about vampires in D&D might catch some reference here!)
  • Now that Kalyskah is reformed, I have two ideas: the first could be the simplest one, that she just loses her XP to the next level. The second would be that she loses the equipment she's wearing and now need to go back to the place she has fallen to get her armour\ weapons or her XP back. And also, she would lose all of her blood points when that happened.

So, what do you think about this idea? Do you have any thoughts? Other ideas of ways we can make being defeated more severe than it actually is?

Comments

Anonymous

Okay so I've had some time to think about this, and my first thoughts are simple. I worry only seeing this that defeat ends up being too punishing. In a game like this, you have the unique opportunity to make defeat fun instead of a burden on one's time in the game. So let's tackle all of this, in order and see if any of it helps. 1 - I like that you say "Rational" because I always hate screwing monsters, especially since we have bears and wolves in the game...yikes. So rational is good. Must be a humanoid of some kind, or sentient. 2 - All of these are good, and allows you to actually make use of the character building system which I personally love. I wouldn't look too much beyond those 3 options as it could end up being a bear, and 3 is fine, in fact, two would be fine. Perhaps the taunt should be "intimidate/persuade" which allows you to make some conversation checks and see if you can scare them. Perhaps with something like "I happen to be owned and my Master is quite powerful be warned" which I've noticed can be a thing or even "X important person is my friend because of [big fat lie]" etc. There's all sorts of possibilities here. Anyway, I worry only about development burden, here. If you guys can handle it then great! 3 - not to much to say here, all of this makes total sense within the lore of the game itself but I think that reforming somewhere is enough, especially while the game is still in Alpha. Just imagine what this could do if some bugs rear their ugly little faces again, such as falling through the earth/etc. The bribe/conversation/etc is enough, and failing that, you lose time. XP losses probably shouldn't enter into it as this is generally unpopular if I'm not mistaken. The loss of time and blood is already a big enough penalty. The pain part should have to be finding a spot to feed when you reform, and even then, I would be wary of starting a player with literally a sliver left. Probably just 60% of their first bar, or "blood point" would be more appropriate. My apologies for all the text! I tend to be very long-winded. Additional ideas include: Difficulty slider considerations - penalties could be more severe, such as starting at an even lower bloodpool, etc. Perhaps the "Insane" difficulty could have xp loss for deaths and that would be appropriate for that kind of diff setting. Since the tag system is in play, I think it's important to include that. For example a collared/nude, overly exposed/enticing, could override any choices and move directly to the appropriate *cough* scenes. Seduction would be different, of course, and more of a charisma check. Some options should be unavailable (which reminds me the guard scene still allows a naked, collared, Kalyskah to intimidate them on my last playthrough, but I'm waiting to play today's most recent build before I mark it up on discord.) Lastly some enemies could have some, none, or all of these mentioned above which should ease strain on development. If it is seemingly different for each enemy what options are available, then the player won't be expecting a plethora of choices every time. Thanks for reading, hope it helped!

Nathan Phoenix

taking the type of game and lore into consideration I would go with the losing her equipment option. Her body reforms but her cloths stay in the death spot works physically. To avoid frustration I would make the equipment a regular permanent drop (so if the player dies AGAIN trying to get it there can be multiple drops instead of rare loot disappearing on the second death) and either a cheat or easy mode to disable losing equipment.

dv

(I haven't gotten out of the first dungeon yet after she wakes up in the game, so maybe I'll update this when I actually progress in the game and have a clue about what I'm talking about) Sounds like all negotiations should be resolved via strip poker (or insert card/minigame) lol j/k but it could get creative like that I suppose. (especially if other game ideas are floating around in your heads) If there is an online option or functionality, perhaps some downloadable minigame. That way you can test other ideas. At least for now. (there might be a set of default tests for those that play offline). But for something more realistic: 3- I like the naked upon death idea, but maybe make it customizable according to difficulty level. With the hardest at totally naked. The victor will steal said gear, since she just misted out. And she will need to now defeat the victor, who will retain health levels of the last combat, maybe with a little healing. Or the misting magic allows her to keep a random assortment of gear, number based on difficulty, her level, monster level and user-option slider, with remaining gear stolen by the victor. In MUDs, your whole corpse is left upon death, and if you don't rescue it in time, some MUDs would dissolve your corpse and you would not have anything left. Or all your things would drop on the ground and all wandering monsters would be able to take your stuff. This is certainly overly harsh, but some happy medium could be available. Especially if the victor's state can be saved. 2- Defeat wouldn't necessarily lead to sex if the victor refuses to negotiate? Maybe the charm option goes to mini-game. And maybe there's a random (personality-based) chance for sex vs “death”. This feels more D&D like also where intelligent enemies might need something (though certainly more flexible in D&D) Some random thoughts: I like the idea of more fuzzy logic in things. I think back to Zork Zero and the Jester’s Double Fanucci game. Would certain negotiation results trigger like a town guard or random mercenary/knight on a different quest coming to the rescue? And basic sex animation reward or just a true temporary mob. I like what Sati described about the tag system, which expands on the her level vs mob level ideas. Maybe the victor option leading to sex allows for a random sex move that if Kaly performs it, will free her. Each of the opponents have their own strength/intelligence/etc stats? (this Patreon mobile editor is bad. I think I lost some text)

dv

I never liked xp loss penalty, unless there was a way to recover preferably all. Would rational enemies negotiate with Kaly if Kaly defeats them? Victor could steal just a one or a few items perhaps, so that Kaly has a chance to defeat them non-naked. The Diablo and MUD methods are pretty harsh.

lustfulillumination
>>50792960

1 - Yes, only rational enemies. There might be a monster here and there but mostly humanoid or human enemies. We'll start just with Guards and Bandits. Maybe later we can expand to trolls or other fantastic creatures, but it's important that Kalyskah can talk with the enemy because well... She's negotiating with them. 2 - Taunt is like what we have at the dungeon: Kalyskah gets they angry and uses the opening on their guard to kill them. 3 - You've made a good point about the loss of XP and Items. I guess we'll start with just respawning and losing blood points and maybe later make that on the hardest difficulties, there can be XP loss. The tag system is important because it also affects your chances of success. Even at the dungeon, it's easier to taunt with a menacing cloth, and it's harder with a pet collar. And it's easier to use charisma and seduces with enticing clothes. So yeah, the cloth tag system is something we are aways keeping in mind while designing new quests and situations.

EnigManic

I think losing half of her xp progress toward the next level would be adequate. Here's an idea: If negotiations fail with an enemy who is significantly lower-level than Kaly, that enemy confiscates her equipment. Upon respawning, Kaly needs to return to that spot/area and kill the enemy to retrieve her equipment.

Solstorm

I do not like losing all XP for a level. But maybe half of the XP as a loss to the next level. I am always torn about losing items and having to go to the spot to retrieve them. Especially if your in a weakened state, and nothing to fight with. I think maybe every coffin has a random stash of items that she would have the foresight to have available. Then she can go get her stuff. But when she gets her stuff back the other items disappear (like she put them back) . Maybe a time limit to retrieve them. I think negotiations When defeated makes sense, But it should be meaningful, From seduction with charm being factored in. To maybe a trade of information, Maybe the bandits would like to know where A good hideout or place to set an ambush on a wealthy mark. I think her negotiation ability could be a % of her traits Using the best trait she has in negotiation. Maybe a betrayal, like seducing a Bandit then upon climax she bites him draining him/her of their life and giving her blood to somewhat recover. Or a group to seduce to sex then deciding best to strike again gaining H/P to continue the fight But it is a one time shot no do overs. if she is defeated again she re-spawns in a coffin If she seduces them and sex for her "life" after they are done with her, they leave her stuff and take her money.

Badguy292

I believe losing equipment can be a downside in boss battles, unless there's made an exception for that. Imagine going into a boss battle with your best gear, you get defeated and you're back to using gear that's not optimal, and if you go into the boss battle you lost, under-equipped, it's only worse and you'd just get pummeled trying to get your proper equipment back, potentially just losing it again. That'd be a big bummer.

Anonymous

Interesting question indeed. There should be a strong penalty for loosing to a regular enemy, e.g. start naked in next coffin and loose all exp gained since last saving. She additionally might be drained out, an effect accumulating if to many deaths occur. The ways to work one out of this situation in contrast, i.e. 'to not die', should not make things much easier either, so one has to think through which is the lesser penalty by each situation. And specially to not just 'run through the game'. In general, getting defeated means being to the will of the superior being. So that being get to decide how to proceed with Kalyskah. Maybe force her into sex, sell her on the next slave market, strip her and send away nude or simply kill her. Once Kalyskah learns to bargain, she can offer solutions that are more favorable to her, but chances for success should be low so that does not gets the default in late game. Getting around the boss battle problem: there are more severe things than death to Kalyskah that specially a boss battle defeat could offer, e.g. being trapped for eternity. Rounded up with an 'lost end scene' this might be a third option for defeat.

Anonymous

Just thinking about how to judge a decent bribe... and perhaps half the monetary value of the opponents equipment as a minimum? Thus a bandit is poorly equipped and requires less to be bribed than a guardsmen at default (other tags might make it harder like if there are qualities like lawful, or greedy) and the choice of negotiation type would likely have different levels of Efficacy in how long the opponents stunned. Bribe - length determined with how generous the bribe is compared to the difficulty set by the gear and traits. Seduce - leaves opponent prone and then dazed. Less variable, might have increased efficacy against virgins. Taunt - if this results in luring an opponent into death i would recommend it also recover some health but it has the shortest stun time for other parties. Bluff (just try and use charisma to get away) - basically make up a sob story. I imagine it being like the repartie in Monkey Island where there are certain story elements that work better against certain opponents and you can mangle the story into failure or success. As for repercussions, hard no on losing exp unless it's gated to highest difficulty. But respawning far away with low health and power meters would be a decent deterrent. - annoying but not really detrimental in costing the players progress.

dv

Could make the recovery process part of the game. this other itch.io game has a random but canned capture scene and the protag finds a way out of it via canned story plot.

lustfulillumination
>>50794413

Or maybe the items can appear at some shop. Considering that maybe someone found it and sold it to the blacksmith.

Nemis Xue (edited)

Comment edits

2022-01-05 20:41:59 Ever thought of maybe have some times the choice to be remove and they enslave her or do as they wish & just leave her beaten some where?
2021-01-09 20:48:14 Ever thought of maybe have some times the choice to be remove and they enslave her or do as they wish & just leave her beaten some where?

Ever thought of maybe have some times the choice to be remove and they enslave her or do as they wish & just leave her beaten some where?

Sergey

Yes, the combat system from the dungeon must be implemented throughout the game. The ability to seduce enemies is quite interesting.