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LGR Blerb - Are these Yamaha sound chips legit? (Patreon)

Published:
2020-01-28 20:27:14
Edited:
2020-01-28 20:38:35
Imported:
2021-03

Content

I don't normally post things from my other channels here, but I thought this was worth sharing.

I've been taking a skeptically closer look at the different OPL and OPM synth chips found in various hobbyist sound cards, wondering if they've been resurfaced or something. Turns out they could very well be copies, fakes, or at least dubiously resurfaced originals.

Really don't think that the folks making these hobbyist sound cards are attempting anything shady here, but I honestly had no idea that Yamaha chips were being resurfaced or even being outright faked until recently.  MOS 6581/8580 SID chips, sure, but FM synths? This is news to me!

Here's the video that spawned my interest:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k72SFBOZ_lw 

Files

Are these Yamaha sound chips legit?

Taking a skeptical look at retro OPL and OPM sound chips in my hobbyist sound cards, wondering if they've been resurfaced or what. I don't believe the folks making these hobbyist sound cards are attempting anything shady, but the origins of some of these YM chips are dubious. Here's the "fake chips" video I'm referring to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k72SFBOZ_lw

Comments

Jim Leonard

There was just a video about that very subject, actually: https://youtu.be/k72SFBOZ_lw

Anonymous
>>31788516

This is exact the same video Clint mentions in his video...

Anonymous

I just finished watching, although I haven't watched the other video you mentioned just yet. The only "fakes" I was aware of were basically where they would take a totally different chip like an old RAM chip or something worthless and then silkscreen the SID chip stuff on to pass them off as "untested oldstock" or some nonsense. Of course, these won't work at all and can even fry the board you put them in. I guess my opinion is if they are modern made chips to replace the Yamaha FM chips, I'm okay with it as long as they work and do what they are supposed to do. After all, Yamaha is not manufacturing them anymore and has no interest in doing so. Now, I'll go watch the other video.

LazyGameReviews
>>31789395

Yeah that's my overall take as well. I just wish that the chip makers would make it clear that they're clones if that's the case, since I like to know if I'm dealing with brand new or vintage stuff when it comes to hardware. Thankfully the chips used by Serdashop and Texelec seem solid, even if that YM2151 is clearly resurfaced with black and silver paint. I was surprised to see it smeared away so easily.

Anonymous

I ordered some Harris HD-6120 (single chip PDP-8) chips for a board I did a few years back and they all came relabeled with new laser marking and date codes. I did extensive testing of current draw and function before sending them out. They were real chips - I assumed pulled from scrapped DEC terminals that used them. The only explanation I could come up with was that the person in China selling them to me thought they needed to "look better" and that I'd be happier that way? So they remarked them all then I ordered them? Customs could have siezed them for being remarked so I got lucky on that account.... I would have gladly accepted them in original condition.

Anonymous

Thanks for adding Blerbs to Patreon ❤

Anonymous

As long as they work like the original chips I wouldn't mind, it would be nice if they would just be upfront about it and label them as clones

LazyGameReviews
>>31792757

Agreed, all I want is responsible disclosure! I love the idea that new clones of OPL/OPM chips exists, but I'd like to know what they are instead of wondering about if they're subjected to resurfacing/cloning/faking etc. A number of folks have received chips that don't function at all, even though they were labeled as new and working.

avfusion

Hey Clint, I'm the guy who made that Adlib recreation card with the LGR iconography. I had thought about doing a run of these cards like the RadLib team did for fun, but wanted a good second source for these chips as you can't just buy them from Yamaha anymore. I sourced the chips from a second-hand source in China on UTSource who assured me that they came from e-waste that was sent from Canada to China to be recycled into new products. When I got them in, I also noticed they all had the same date code and assumed that they came from probably an office set of computers, or some set of computers assembled at the same time. Still though, I didn't fully trust it as I had been bitten by 8087 clones coming from China that were resurfaced defects, so I threw in a bag of extra YM3812s and their corresponding DACs... just in case. I tested all of them pretty thoroughly to ensure they worked and sounded right to me, but the time investment needed to be sure really killed my interest in doing more than the odd couple for fun.

Anonymous

I've heard trying to increase yields by attempting to resell a chip that failed testing. Some may be these types as well as what David Murray said.

LazyGameReviews
>>31793585

Makes sense you'd want to avoid that hassle, there are just so many unknowns when buying these chips. A number of folks in the video comments have confirmed they are definitely clones and/or resurfaced. Shame there's not a much better option! Out of curiosity I've ordered a bunch myself to see what kinds of results I get. Should be a fun experiment.

LazyGameReviews
>>31793733

Indeed, I've read that a bunch of the SID chips floating around online are these kinds of chips. Many of them tend to have certain bits that failed QA testing, bad filters, etc.

Lennart Sorensen

I suppose it is possible that yamaha had one large batch made in 2008 just to keep in stock for a while. After all how many would they still be selling by then? So if they were doing a single last batch, they probably wouldn't have taken long and could all easily be in the same week (week 24 of 2008 that is).

Anonymous

It's complicated further by the fact that Yamaha isn't a fab house, so over time they would have potentially had their chips manufactured by multiple fab houses, meaning you'll see variation even between genuine chips. Edit: Turns out above is not accurate, but did they use their process for digital ICs like the YMxxxx or just analogue stuff? It's a bit more obvious with the chips that completely lost their markings under the acetone, since real chips have the markings laser etched at the factory, you would have to *sand* them off! I have an Amstrad branded AdLib card, and the OPL chip has no markings at all except a date code. It sounds for all the world like a genuine chip, so I wonder if maybe Amstrad did a HP move and ordered chips with custom markings? It's all very curious, indeed! In my mind, as long as the silicon is the same, and the sound is "right", then the origin of the chip isn't really important.

LazyGameReviews
>>31799224

Well, the same chips are marked with years all the way up until 2019. I'm sure 2020 chips will follow, they really are just marked with whatever year is most recent. Someone in the video comments posted an email they got from Yamaha asking about the chips, and they replied saying they couldn't vouch for them at all. According to what's been found out so far, Yamaha hasn't made those chips in over 20 years!

LazyGameReviews
>>31799285

Yep, that's covered in the more in-depth video I talked about :) He goes over the different companies that made Yamaha's chips and what to look out for. A bunch of the YM chips for sale nowadays don't match the known Yamaha manufacturer chip styles. There were certainly more generic-looking OPL chips back in the day, along with clones. I have a number of them myself and they work well! This isn't about those though. The problem as I see it is folks don't know if they're getting new chips, old chips, resurfaced chips, clone chips, or straight up fakes. We've no way to reliably know what we're getting because the sellers don't specify what's what. Some used chips are being sold as new, some knock-off chips are being sold as genuine, and sometimes you even get chips that don't work at all or have defects. Taking a look on eBay for YM3812s alone and they all appear legit even though many of them truly aren't, and therein lies the problem.

Anonymous

I bought some 80287 chips from eBay, from China and they may be fakes/copies. They seem to work with all the programs I've tried, but I'm not sure they're genuine Intel chips.

LazyGameReviews
>>31802294

Dang, even math co-processors now? I suppose there's gotta be enough demand from industrial legacy hardware upkeep to merit all these dubious chips.

Anonymous

I personally LIKE the idea that someone is actually creating new SID, OPL etc chips (as long as they work just like the original). It's like, for years the number of working chips in the world has been slowly decreasing, marching toward their inevitable death, and now it's like "hey, you can actually get them brand new again!" It almost feels like time travel ;) But, as has been mentioned like 100 times already, the key is full disclosure. I like, for instance, how the stock monotech board looks exactly (or close enough) like an original, except for a tiny little label saying "made by monotech". But trying to pass off a clone as NOS is just really dishonest and icky.

BastetFurry
>>31804992

The sad thing is, you can not make new SIDs anymore, there is no NMOS fab left and you need NMOS for that analogue part of the chip. With enough money you could make one in your basement, they aren't that complex from todays viewpoint, but currently there are none left.

Anonymous
>>31802294

It was a 8087 (not a 287), but still, yeah... I'm not sure if they are "recreations" or just "refurbished" chips. I think it was this video that made me realize one of my co-processors may be "fake" => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiPEg2_EZ10 My 8087 seems to have the same numbers as the one in that video => https://photos.app.goo.gl/4Py5NHKoNS2BDasTA