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Sacred Symbols+, Episode 241 | Revisiting The Last of Us: Part II (Patreon)

Published:
2022-11-12 17:00:11
Imported:
2023-01

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For more than two years, the conversation surrounding Naughty Dog's PS4-exclusive The Last of Us: Part II has largely been toxic, unenjoyable, and regrettable. Yet, we here on Sacred Symbols have tried to put out constructive and worthwhile conversation around the game, specifically back in its launch year of 2020 when we (for the first and only time) did two review discussions and spoilercasts for it. With our coordinator and shopkeep Micah having recently played it for the first time, we thought it would be a great time to sit down once more and -- with renewed vigor! -- examine the game through a critical lens. And so, we present to you a third conversation dedicated to The Last of Us: Part II, our first in more than two years.

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Comments

Manuel Nascimento

I'm very grateful that you decided to do this episode. I agree with the majority of what was said, particularly by Colin. I felt the game forces the player to utterly confront humanity in the most visceral and intimate way, from the most loving and hopeful aspects to the darkest and most perfidious. I understand Micah’s criticisms with the “love triangles” stuff, maybe those could be done in a different way, though Dina’s relationship with Ellie I felt very endeared about and showing Abby’s “side” and making you relate to her gives perspective to things. When I played I started feeling like “yeah, we don’t have to do this, it’s dangerous, but I HAVE TO do this, Joel is gone!”. Then more and more the feeling of “why am I doing this? Going through all this darkness, doing these terrible things for the sake of revenge” crept in. And by the end the harrowing realization (even though you could argue it’s cliché) that revenge is not worth it – Joel is still gone! – this conclusion was arrived not just by long gameplay hours but actually by making you live all those moments intensely and viscerally throughout the game. And this is what speaks to it being a masterpiece, I feel. Cheers and thanks for all your work.

Alex Gould

Love this game. I always feel conflicted and a sense of discomfort while playing as Abby, but that’s the point I guess. I did end up liking the character by the end of her campaign. When I took control of Ellie again in the epilogue, I felt discomfort again as I knew I was controlling Ellie with the intention of killing Abby (again), but I sympathized with Abby this time. It’s a bummer not everyone felt that way about Abby, but it worked for me.

SnipaMasta

I’m not a fan of this game particularly. I’m only part way through this podcast, but I have to comment as I listen to Colin discuss how the fans are the ones who deduced the game down to its woke ideas and trans characters. Am I wrong here in remembering, much prior to the launch of the game, there was a presentation of sorts where Neil Druckmann is explaining the motivation for making Part 2. In it, he specifically says something along the lines of “In Part 1, we made a really sexist game.” When I heard that I rolled my eyes SO fucking hard, as well as many others I’m sure. This is what shaped so many fans’ view of the story far before launch. It’s this comment from him that made me incredibly skeptical for the game since then. It has nothing to do with Ellie being gay or trans people or whatever. I have no issue with that. It’s the fact that the creator of the game I so much adore (Part 1) is now saying that such game is “sexist”. Huh? Anyway, I hope someone can illuminate more of this. That is all.

larry Seitz

Thumbs down episode

Kevin Cooper

As far as I'm concerned, if a person was upset because they were forced to play as Abby (after her direct involvement in Joel's death), then the game did its job in getting the intended emotional response. You felt exactly what they wanted you to feel. A job well done.

Michael

I gave the game an 8. HZD is the true GOAT.

Messenger

Can we get a Witcher 3 spoiler cast hosted by Micah?

Henry Morgan

So refreshing to hear someone gush about this game! I absolutely loved it, and agree with you in regards to the sophistication of the story. I totally get wanting to wring people’s necks for boiling it down to “revenge is bad.” Reminded me why I’ve been listening to you for so many years! You’ve always been a champion of the potential of games as a narrative medium, and can recognize when a game is important and boundary pushing.

Nikitas Gagas

Just started this up again the other day and, man, that opening conversation between Joel and Tommy just mesmerized me. The acting, writing, and facial expressions are done so exquisitely they put this game on par with Cohen or Tarantino caliber films. I will be persevering through this harrowing experience once again after I finish Ragnarok. May even put “A Plague Tale: Requiem” on the back burner after having put hours into it. Games like this are a very rare gem.

Sean McCann
>>95739097

I wasn’t upset, I was bored. Partly because just as I leveled up Ellie and felt like the game was soon to be over I wasn’t half way done but also because Abby’s story was boring because it had no stakes. You already knew everyone was dead. I think I would have enjoyed the game so much better if you played as Abby first or majoritively instead of Ellie. Wish they had the balls to do it like metal gear solid 2 did.

MISZCZOGRZMOT

Hi guys. The conversation about TLOU2 has obviously been so toxic that it's hard to even engage in it without being labeled as a -phobic person or hater, but here goes nothing. You've got people hailing it as a groundbreaking 10/10 on one end, and people actively hating it for 'wokeness' on the other end. I feel like I'm kinda in the middle on this - I wouldn't rate it below a 7/10 (on the merits of its technical acomplishments/music/acting alone), but it's a game i'm never going to play again, cause it's pacing, structure, story, and characterization make it boring and quite infuriating. ND's trademark forced walking segments are in overdrive in this game - there's a moment when a string of cut-scenes is interrupted by a 20s barely interactive 'go as Abby to a room' gameplay bit, that feels like is just there so that the DS4 wouldn't power off, since these cutscenes are going for well over 10min combined, and that wouldn't be a great look. Gameplay cannot sustain a 25-30hr game, and it gets boring halfway through. Weapon selection is the clunkiest thing I've seen since PS1, and it requires Tekken combo inputs to select just one gun (i.e. left, left, up, up, X or something - add holding triangle at the end if you want to add silencer or change ammo). The themes and messages are so plain and simple that they're almost insulting - killing bad and final, revenge=vicious cycle, love, obsession, etc. All the emotional manipulation attempts that ND put into the game come off as clumsy and very transparent. Abby kills Joel and I'm already sure that he killed someone she loved during his dark period mentioned in TLOU1(turns out it was a retconned doctor, but whatevs), and that we're supposed to rethink our stance on her later on. You kill a dog in an unskippable QTE - they make you feel bad about it by making you play catch it with it later, the game stops and waits for your input before you torture Nora, so they can make you feel bad about it later, even though we were forced to do it, Ellie loses a finger, so she's bound to play the guitar, etc. It's kindergarten-grade stuff, and frankly it's below the writing level or the twists of the first game (where I was actually worried about Joel being dead when we switched to Ellie). The story and level design feels disjointed, and it feels like they cut 40% of the game and glued what got left together by whatever method they could figure out in time - that's why Ellie is bipolar and changes her mind, about killing Abby or letting her go, 8 times throughout the game(I counted), or that's why characters make choices that don't gel with their previous state of mind, and current circumstances every now and then, or why your character often gets ambushed and the level ends either via a fade to black, or a friend saves you (~15 times throughout the game?). Earlier levels are strange remnants of the time when the game supposed to have a more hub-based level design, there's so many mentions of scar's priestess, yet we know she got cut - it's just obvious that stuff got cut and shuffled around, even as you're playing the game. Most of the cast is bland and pointless - they're acted and animated great, but they're nothing more then empty avatars that are supposed to fuel Ellie's or Abby's hatred more, once they get inevitably killed, and never mentioned again. You can shuffle around names, genders or character models of most of the WLF characters with the scars, and Ellie's crew and it wouldn't change a thing. Just like in Plinket's EP 1 reviews - try to describe, say, Jesse, without talking about his actions, or what he looks like, and you'll come up empty in most cases. Game's structure makes meeting WLF guys even more pointless, since they're all already dead in Ellie's timeline, and Abby's 10hr long gameplay segment feels like a chore, since it's explained why she killed Joel right of the bat, and we're shown immediately that WLF guys are normal people just trying to survive, yet we keep playing as Abby and going on pointless side-quests, like : gathering medical supplies, searching for a character, going on patrol, and looking for a different character (though at least we meet the scar kids, that have some actual characterization work put into them at this point, which is nice). Ellie is made totally unlikable, aside from being undecided and bipolar, she kills everyone left and right without thought, she makes very dumb decissions (like killing a pregnant lady and her dude, when she needs info out of them), she leaves her family, treats Joel like shit, even though she knows why he lied to her, threatens a dying kid with a knife, is driven mad by her revenge obsession by the end, and I honestly hope she's not the protagonist of any future ND projects. Even TLOU's unique setting feels wasted - a story about 3 warring factions, and the people involved, could've worked even in a Far Cry game. I was excited when we were aproaching ground zero to find out more about the cordyceps zombies, but all that came out of it were some patient diaries, and a monster to kill. I honestly feel like all the GOTY's are undeserved and given on the face value, by people that never given it any thought. I feel like all the praises about the attention to detail just expose how uneven it really is - you've got soft clothes that have attached physics to them in Joel's house, but then there are clothes made of metal in WLF's cafeteria, abandoned cars have intricate interior detail, but then you come across ones that have a flat non-transparent texture for windows, you can break any glass in the shops, until you come across a shop where you can't interact with any glass surfaces, etc. Obviously a lot of work has gone into this, and cuts were made for optimization reasons, but that extra detail makes objects, that didn't get as much care, you see later on, stand out much more. I wonder how Neil and the rest of ND feel about TLOU2, cause it feels unfinished and cobbled together, to me, even though TLOU1 is one of my favorite games. I think there was a 'why ND storytelling is outdated' video I came across on youtube, once, that shared some of my sentiments - it was refreshing to see that someone made similar observations to mine, and that I'm not going crazy.