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The Last of Us: Part II isn't only one of the PlayStation 4's swan songs; it's also likely going to go down as its best-selling exclusive, when all is said and done. And there's good reason for that. Naughty Dog's 25-30 hour epic is a master class in production, animation, design, and gameplay, and -- though its story is the epitome of divisive -- it's a game that absolutely demands our attention. In fact, it's grabbed so much of our attention that we've decided to do a two-part spoilercast and review discussion for it, because there's simply too much to fit into one episode. So without further ado, let's begin our conversation in earnest, as we head to the year 2038 to check in on Joel, Ellie, and the disastrous situation they're about to find themselves in...

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Comments

Mitch Orobko

Ohh shiiiit. Been waiting for this one.

Anonymous

Been waiting like crazy, time to work out baby!!!!!

Anonymous

Let's go. Can't wait to hear both sides to this.

Wayde

Great game ending was sad but was realistic

DeucesBruh

Is it weird that I almost would have preferred to pay more and play as Abby in a DLC and split this ENORMOUS game into parts ?

Anonymous

Bruuuh this shit's gonna be lit 🔥

Anonymous

I think the Abby section should have been dlc too, this game is far too long.

Anonymous

Is part 2 coming out next week?

Danny Gonet

Wow I literally just beat the game less than 10 minutes ago. Talk about perfect timing lol :D

Anonymous

Man. I feel like the weirdo for feeling this game was just..okay. no strong feelings about anything other than thinking it's beautiful and polished.

Anonymous

Let’s goo!!!

Frank G.

I'm not done yet but goddammit I'll be ready by the time the 2nd podcast is up. Its soo good! I've been holding my thoughts and tongue on the game and never got it spoiled. Its tough balancing to play with 2 small children taking up most of the days but fuck it I'm almost at the finish line and I didn't even have kids when the first one came out, so I've waited so long for the story to have a so called "proper ending" but I think I would have been content without getting a sequel. Never cared what the haters ever said or tried to spoil in the past weeks this whole game felt like a plus. Ps. Bloaters are fucking wild to kill.

Jack Doheny

i personally didn't want a sequel to the last of us i adored the first game and thought it ended amazingly. still think this is a good game i managed to avoid all the leaks but still wasn't happy with how its story was done just my opinion.

Anonymous

I literally just finished the game!

KomakiKhaos

So excited to listen to this episode

D'Ante Almo

I don’t understand why people are upset because THEY didn’t get the story THEY wanted. I don’t feel like this game should’ve had a happy ending. Not everything needs to end in sunshine and rainbows. I feel like a happy ending would’ve been SO boring.

Jake Z

It would be cool to have guests on for the second episode, like Jeff Cannata and Richard Hoeg.

Anonymous

I feel it should have ended with Ellie contemplating going for Tommy's plan on the farm to find Abby.

Anonymous

Became a patron just to listen to this.

Caleb Beck

*cracks beer*

Ian (616Entertainment)

I'm 10 minutes in and I've never, ever disagreed with Chris so strongly. Splitting the game as Day 1 Ellie, Day 1 Abby, Day 2 Ellie, Day 2 Abby etc. would've completely ruined what they accomplished with this game. Having me see all three days as Ellie, so bloodthirsty that I'm ENJOYING the WLF's screams, ready to chop Abby's head off would have been completely negated had I seen that the WLF's were not bad people. In fact, Abby and Ellie are almost the exact same person. I HATED stepping into Abby's shoes at first... And I think I was supposed to. But over the 3 days as Abby we see who she truly is and that she's a caring, loyal friend to those around her. Not only that, but she will say fuck you to authority if she feels innocents are being murdered (Lily). They took this character I was looking forward to torturing and turned her into a layered, leveled good guy in a matter of hours. When I had to control Abby beating up Ellie, I was heartbroken. And then when I was Ellie beating up Abby, I was literally screaming at the TV "ELLIE, STOP. PLEASE JUST STOP. GO HOME." They had me wrapped around their finger, Colin. I have never, ever seen duality portrayed so perfectly in any show, movie, or game.

Bryan Lozano

Let’s goooo!!! Maybe my favorite ps4 game.

Ian (616Entertainment)

Chris just said that he loved the Joel and Ellie flashbacks and that he wishes "this was the game." Chris, this was The Last Of US Part 1, and you didn't like that game.

Ian (616Entertainment)

Chris is now saying that it would've been nice to spend more time with Joel. Chris, those of us that loved the first game spent that whole game with him, and we've waited like 7 years to see him again! Spending so little time with him before he's taken away (on TOP of knowing that he and Ellie had a falling out) makes it so much more painful that he was taken so early. I really feel like Chris just doesn't get The Last Of Us at all. I love Chris, he's perfectly entitled to feel that way, I'm not some jabroni bent out of shape that someone doesn't agree with me, I'm just saying. I feel like Chris doesn't get it. And him having not liked Part 1, I mean, of course none of this feels the way it should to him.

Anonymous

A two part spoiler cast? So is this four hours of Chris complaining? I’ll try to listen, but he was never going to like this game.

Anonymous

Isaac killed the prophet which is why WLF and Seraphites are at war. The Seraphites have kinda lost their way after she was killed.

BigArty

Man Chris didnt like this. Lol. I guess its good to hear a separate opinion

Anonymous

Figured I'd drop by and just say I agree with Chris on basically everything he's said so far in the podcast I already knew he would get alot of shit lol... The game really disipointed me.

James Galos

Not to be politically motivated, but I highly enjoyed understanding both sides of the story. It’s easy to hate someone you don’t know. By understanding both sides it’s hard to say one person is bad and one is good. If we could take people and put them in a game to understand the other side people may understand that we aren’t here to hurt each other we just disagree. Just my thoughts on a video game and life these days. Keep on being brutal and honest gentlemen.

Kaleb

Yeah, they lost their ways with the tradition of giving little girls to elders as wives.

Jeremy Craves

I’m still working my way through the game. Feels like I am over half way. I have thankfully avoided the spoilers that leaked. Can you confirm what was leaked and why you think people cancelled their pre-orders, supposedly, due to the leaked information. Hopefully this makes part two. I’ll listen to both once finished.

RoughSlpr

Colin, I think the part involving Yara and Lev were so important for Abby’s character arch. She essentially gained the higher meaning she lost when her dad died and a cure was lost by caring for them. This really comes out when she tells Lev: “You’re my people now” This comes out later in the theater scene when Lev basically saves Dina’s and Ellie’s life.

Anonymous

I also gotta say... I used to think Joel really fucked the world up but this game made me realize that the world wouldn't be fixed by a cure... I don't believe a cure would've stopped the slavers in California or the war between WLF and the scars.

B00ch

first game was darker than the flashbacks. more of that but with second games gameplay. the first game's gameplay is bad

B00ch

well one character got a happy ending. one didn't

Ian (616Entertainment)

"When the character switch happened, I realized I didn't have anything left for the game to teach me." Chris... They were just starting to teach you that not everything is as it seems. That it's very easy to hate someone you don't know. That Abby is not some ruthless, mindless piece of shit, and that she is actually, in essence, Ellie in different clothing. That had the Last Of Us Part 1 followed Abby and her dad, and we were introduced to Ellie in Part 2, that we'd hate Ellie instead. If he didn't check out and feel like "ugh I have to do THIS now" that might've actually landed for him.

Anonymous

I thinks it's unfair to not understand this perspective... It's exactly how I felt while playing... I feel like you have to understand that that not everyone wants to have a 10 hour preach session trying to make you feel bad or care about characters you've already killed. I'm smart I understand that in real life there is nuance and perspective on every side but in the game I don't need that type of philosophy lesson lol just me opinion

Michael

Happy there are 2 separate opinions here. I was somewhat split, and this is the first discussion I’ve seen that’s more of a back and forth(rather than circle jerk or hate fest) Great content guys

Anonymous

Yeahhh

Anonymous

Question: If Ellie accepted Joel's lie at the end of TLOU1, why is TLOU2 showing us that she doesn't accept the lie? Her maturity in accepting the lie was what made TLOU as a series so unique.

Jeremy Miller

Very small peice of constructive criticism (and please don't take this the wrong way) but Colin I think in the future if you're going to pick comments to set the scene, don't pick two overall positive comments. It seemed like Chris really wasn't as much of a fan of the game as most people and starting it off by saying "the overwhelming amount of our audience seemed to like it" in my opinion really puts more pressure on Chris to speak his true feelings about it when I'm sure he's already feeling tense by saying he wasn't in love with a game that most people seem to like. But hey that's just my two cents I'm really not trying to call you out, just something to think about in the future if you'd want to start the conversation with both sides of the coin and go from there.

Wayde

A 7.5 Chris really? I get that the game isn't perfect but I think it's at least a solid 8.5 to a 9 minimum. There are plenty of games that don't have a decent story or a story at all they get a minimum 8 for game play It almost makes me wonder if you just don't invest in characters that easily because I really liked Abby as a character and I really loved lev too

Dom posa

The game went right over Chris’ head because he ran through it. Can’t play it that way. No one should just play part 2 this is why it’s called part 2 and not Lou 2. Frustrating to listen to his opinion on this game but I guess I respect it nonetheless . Abbys parts were the highlight of the game

Michael

Art can be subjective, especially with a story with depth such as this

Anonymous

Just gotta say. That vaccine could likely never be produced by those methods, nor used effectively. It would be better to develop a fungicide.

D'Ante Almo

I agree. I loved Abby’s story. I really cares about her at the end. I didn’t want her to die. I’m happy it ended the way it did.

Ian (616Entertainment)

She didn't accept it at the end of Part 1, she just bit her tongue. She had her doubts. Throughout Part 2, we see her actually putting herself in harms way and getting proof before calling Joel a straight up liar.

Ryan Harvey

I gotta say as long as this game is. I feel I really benefitted from coming straight off the back of a play through of the first game.

Quintin Propes

I can’t wait to beat the game so I can listen to this! Thanks for all the work you do Colin and Chris and so many others.

Will Hahn

I gotta say, I played the game on my base PS4, and I was really impressed with how fast the game would load after you die. Like almost too fast, especially considering how graphically heavy the game is. So props to ND for really optimizing this game for the PS4.

Kaleb

I wasn't expecting this but I came to pretty much the exact same conclusion as Chris on my issues with the game and the rating i'd give it. I do lean more towards a 7.5. it's really just okay and it should have been like 8 hours shorter. They did a really REALLY bad job at trying to get me to like or remotely care about Abby or any of her awfully annoying friends. I'm looking forward to the multiplayer game since the gameplay was the best part of the game.

Sean McCole

The conversation around this game has been super annoying to me. There is like no middle ground. The people who love the game hail it as the best video game ever and refuse to hear any criticism. If you didn’t like it you “weren’t smart enough to get it” or you are a troll, sexist, homophobic, etc. But then you have the other side that think this game is one of the worst games ever because of a few bad choices. Calling it a 0/10, a disgrace to the original. A lot of these people haven’t even played the game yet still feel the need to review bomb the game because they read a few leaks they didn’t agree with. I think the truth is this game is just in the middle. It is not a bad game by any stretch. It’s production value is just way too high and Naughty Dog is too talented to make a truly bad game. But to me it is a bit of a misstep for them in some ways and we shouldn’t just look over that. And finally on that point, no one is above criticism, including developers. People are allowed to love your game and people are allowed to not like your game. No one deserve to get hate and threats, that is unacceptable. But don’t dismiss valid criticism because you think you are so much better than everyone else.

Shawn Hayden

My one major gripe with the game is that there are parts that drag on a bit much.

DeucesBruh

I think the game has some big flaws, but also is a worthy successor to TLOU

bix hutch

There are a ton of plot holes in this story, why would Joel trust abby so fast? Wouldn’t Ellie having a child make her understand why Joel saved his child? Ellie gos on a brutal massacre but decides on peace when she gets to Abby? Abby just isn’t likable to me, I don’t care about her. Why is Neil Druckman fucking Abby? I just don’t understand what they were thinking with some of this.

Caleb Beck

Chris really has the most reasonable and balanced critiques of this game I've heard in this noisy discourse. game is a 9 for me, but I can completely understand where he's coming from.

Cory Towler

Hey guys . I’ve got a question, more so a request for Chris. In the time that I’ve been listening to Sacred Symbols I have added a plethora of new words to my vocabulary. I would like to ask that anytime Chris uses a word that is more advanced than the average person would know, that we add it to a CnC Dictionary. And we can then address those words every month to help us peasants better navigate conversations in our own lives. This obviously has nothing to do with TLOU2 but everything to do with the future of our generation. We need this. If you don’t think so, you’re wrong. Love ya. Mean it. Keep cleaning up that pee and unpacking those boxes.

Joe McPartlin

Have to respectfully disagree with a lot of Chris' opinions. Rushing through Abby's section I think does a great disservice to how well they sold a protagonist you start off hating. If I'm being honest 20 hours is a really short time to get to the end, though I agree with the point that the game is too long. To each their own though. Can't wait for part 2!

Anonymous

I hope you guys touch on this in part 2 of your discussion, but did we completely forget that Ellie killed a pregnant woman? I understand Mel was not a well-liked character, but this was shocking to me. It was also devastating to Ellie as well. I'd argue this is the most bleak part of the game.

David McKinstry

For me this game exceeds the original. It was less "fun" but impacted me far more on an emotional level.

Anonymous

Got a few minutes in but I’m gonna save the rest for when I’m at work. It sounds like I’m with Chris on this tho. I was enjoying the game as Ellie and right when it hits a high it swaps to Abby and all the momentum is gone. For the most part didn’t care about playing as Abby because I just wanted to get back to playing as Ellie. I see she’s a somewhat good person but she killed Joel and is Ellie’s target. 🤷🏽‍♂️ I did like Lev tho and seeing Tommy on the other side was nice.

Ian (616Entertainment)

Okay, last comment. At 1:24:00-ish, Chris says “I’m playing for 10 hours as a character the game wants me to hate.” He officially, officially... doesn’t get it.

Anonymous

Colin is really trying to sell character motivations from the first adventure to justify plot holes in this story.

tejotl

Interesting - I was actually glad u didn't replay the 1st one as I would be bored with the gameplay much faster. I did put a lot if hours into my first playthrough and clocked over 40hs total which is a lot more than people average from what I'm hearing

Brandon L Bevilacqua

Chris is the first person ive listened too thats had criticism that’s completely reasonable. I dont agree at all with him, like at all. But i totally respect his opinion and see where he comes from. For me i hated abby and grew to love her. And for me lev ended up being my favorite character. I really connected with them and the story and i find it so interesting chris didnt. I thought the game was a masterpiece but i loved hearing a reasonable second take. To me the 7.75-8 he said i can understand because he didnt love the story decisions. For me though id give it a 10/10. Great podcast though guys

Anonymous

Look, video games are an art form, and art is subjective after all. Yet, I do not understand Chris‘ opinion on the story, especially on the nonlinear structure. Personally, I think that only a nonlinear story can get you as a player as emotionally invested in this particular game. You need to play through the story first as Ellie because you are right there with her in hating Abby for her actions. Joel’s death seems cruel and out of nowhere. The backstory that we continuously explore about Joel and Ellie adds even more weight to the things that happen to Ellie. Basically, we ARE Ellie and feel exactly the way she feels, not once questioning our motives or the motives for Abby. When the switch happens, it is supposed to be hard to understand given where we are coming from emotionally. However, I argue that Abby is after all a likable, fleshed out, character - ans I cared about her story. The real magic of this very game lies in the idea that after spending time with Abby you question yourself, your motives and the morals behind all of it. Personally, I felt sick. I was so disgusted of me and disappointed about my blind thought of revenge. Here, the game shines for me and transforms it to a whole different piece of medium in my opinion. The discussion around the game is fascinating. I honestly never felt so strongly about anything video game-related. This game defies any score due to its emotional journey that takes YOU to dark places and then confronts you with your own beliefs. I for one love this game and cannot wait to experience it again. Be happy and safe guys, Cheers from Austria

Garry

So he has to lie he’s being honest with the feedback they got I don’t get that. A lot of outlets I’ve seen have said the same thing at first everyone was complaining but as more and more people actually finish it it’s actually getting more and more positive. He can only go with the feedback he gets.

Tyler Cumerford

I was so pissed when Seattle day 1 came back on the screen and I realized I had to do the whole thing again, but somehow naughty dog made me feel great sympathy and adoration towards the girl who killed Joel. Insane. Almost loved her story even more than ellie. And then they somehow make ellie the antagonist at the end. It's so refreshing. Loved the nonlinearity.

Tyler Cumerford

The reason they couldn't do ellie day one Abby day one etc, it's because you're supposed to hate all the characters and senselessly kill them, and the you go back and spend time with them and realize that they're real people with real emotions too. Even killing the dog held so much more weight when you realize how much Abby and Owen grew up with the dog

Anonymous

I completely agree with Chris. I fully understand what Naughty Dog was going for, but it just doesn't land for me. I am fully invested in Joel and Ellie from my past experience with them regardless of who they are or what the have done. The game just feels that it's forcing Abby on you and I never free to like her, despite the scenarios that are written for her. Play as her felt like a chore. There is no doubt that the game has great gameplay, graphics, sound design, and acting, but the story and the structure do not work for me. It would have been really fun interesting to have this game instead be about Abby though to the end of the first game.

Aurang

Still finishing up. Cannot wait to listen C&C, appreciate you both!

Anonymous

Great spoilercast guys. Really like a couple of your takes on the game. Completely agree with Colin’s point about people feeling like they have ownership over these characters. I think it’s completely fine if you didn’t enjoy the story or the way it took the characters journeys, but naughty dog doesn’t owe you the story you may have envisioned in your head. If you don’t like it, that’s cool. Just move on, it’s only a game lol. Personally I saw the leaks an wasn’t excited for the way the story looked like it was going, but realised context matters. Played it an am surprised how much I really loved it in the end. An am probably growing more fond of it the more I reflect on it. But there are real genuine reasons to not enjoy the story, gameplay or characters. An really liked Chris’ take that it should be ok to criticise or not enjoy the game also. Think there’s a lot of hysteria by some people on both sides. Just in general I don’t really enjoy being overly pandered to or preached to or having agendas thrust on me. Discussion is always welcome, but don’t enjoy things forced on me. But that shit just really wasn’t in this game lol, I genuinely didn’t feel anything was shoved in my face, God people can blow up the smallest shit into drama. The characters sexualisation wasn’t some “central” focus of the game or anything, it was just a part of who they where lol. Anyway I could go on and on, but great job guys. I just had a workplace accident today, thanks for keeping me entertained while I’m laid up at home. Cheers.

BigArty

Yeah I definitely caught that as well. Literally the opposite of what the game wants u to do

Shaun Wilkinson

It was predictable that Chris wouldn’t vibe with the game and I couldn’t disagree with pretty much all of his points. The structure is brilliant in my opinion and raises the game to another level. I think you can tell which people are more used to/prefer old school video game storytelling and those that prefer the more cinematic and sophisticated storytelling we get in TLOU2.

Adam Barnes

There’s no way Chris finished this game in 19/20 hours. Fuck off

Craig Mcguire

You can finish the game in less than 20 hours, the games runtime is artificially inflated with the exploration and looting in larger more open areas. One of the first streamers to complete the game did it in 17 hours, just by strictly staying to the story path.

Shaun Wilkinson

Totally agree, switching characters each day would have worked at all. You had to spend a prolonged time with Abby for the pay off at the end to work. At the time I’d did feel as though it was too long but that was because I had no idea about the pay off. For me it’s a master stroke that makes the game a masterpiece.

Shaun Wilkinson

I don’t think you understand what the word plot hole means tbh 🤦🏻‍♂️ it sucks the game doesn’t work for you. For me it’s up there with MGS3 as one of my favourite games of all time. Easily 10/10.

Mason M

Would’ve loved Dagan on this one.

Leonard Jacobson

I totally respect where Chris is coming from but personally after about an hour with Abby I was hooked. Also, I played the game over two weekends with the second weekend starting from where Abby's playthrough started. Such a cool game.

Anonymous

I think this was a really interesting conversation. One thing I took away from this with regards to not seeing/hearing much of the woman from the Seraphites... With the "Prophet" of the Seraphites, to my understanding she's been dead a while (presumably at Martyr's Gate?) Lev makes a comment to Abby along the lines of the cult's kind of gone off of the rails since the Prophet's death (and that she supposedly never preached this type of behaviour!) Side note for the Seraphites: I fucking *love* how they refer to the Infected as "Demons". It's so fucking cool!

Campbell Parker

At one point while playing as Ellie in Seattle, she remarks that the city has barely been plundered for supplies and then later on when playing as Abby, she suggests to Lev and Yara to gather supplies and they refuse as they don't use items from the old world. I thought this was an interesting reason for there being a lot more loot and supplies in the world.

Max Stahl

I just thought it was hilarious that Abby could bum rush a grown man through gunfire and take him out, but couldn't do the same to a young girl (Ellie). Most of the elements of greatness were there in this game, but it wasn't pieced together correctly. Love the "You're not a Real Fan™" if you're one of the more outspoken, raging critics comment on the part of one of the listeners. "It just subverts your expectations bro. It's a 9/10!" Ah, there it is. Not salty, just saw that slow pitch coming. 😂 People are certainly silly on both sides of the critical aisle, though. I fondly recall and totally agree with Chris on the moment between Ellie and Joel in the museum. That was the one time I teared up throughout the entire game.

Craig Mcguire

I think the moment you encounter the WLF in day 1 right up until day 3 as Ellie it's up there with the best video games I've played. It's such a shame because everything else feels so disjointed, messy, and completely devoid of subtlety. After 16 hours I felt like a knew the ending already.

JusticeSoulTuna

This was a fantastic discussion guys. This game was a flawed near-masterpiece. Honestly, it could be considered quadruple A game; it's highly produced and has some TRULY remarkable moments. The issue is, Abby's part IS too long and the sequence killed the momentum of the revenge plot. I didn't hate Abby, and in fact they could've taken the best moments of her campaign and made it into a nice 5 hour experience, and then pivot back to Ellie. I really liked this game, and had a ton of fun, but this game could've been better. Ah well.

Anonymous

As far as marketing with switching the structure. I think it would've been cool to have the game trailers been all about Abby and make it seem like it was another story in TLOU universe. It would likely impact sales but I feel like it would've been a bigger and more welcome surprise to be able to play as Ellie half way through after not expecting her to be in the game at all.

Anonymous

I think the game could have benefitted from allowing Ellie to complete her revenge on Abby and, due to the nature of the story’s world, would have better communicated the complexities of enacting revenge and the emptiness felt at its realization, versus (seemingly) brow beating the player over the head with the “violence begets violence begets violence so who’s going to be the better person and stop the cycle?” sermon My point is I don’t believe the audience (the player) was trusted enough to grasp what is attempting to be explored with part 2’s story and message the way they were in part 1

Gr4vity400

Did anyone get Aliens vibes when Abby was going against the ball zombie? I enjoyed the game and think it would be redundant to get a sequel. How about one in between the first and second game with Joel and Ellie again? I liked Lev and Abby but not as much and Joel and Ellie. Overall good game though.

Calcifer

Hi Colin and Chris! Please talk about your thoughts on the hospital part, when you play as Abby (going into the lower levels and seeing the creepy giant infected monster). I think it was the moment where I started feeling differently about Abby. Having Ellie kill Mel right before the game cuts off to Abby's part made me already start disliking Ellie (she killed a pregnant woman!!!) and making me want to take a break from her story. Combine that with having the best action sequences in the game (like the hospital part) and to me it explains a lot of how people could start to like Abby during their time playing as her. It changed my mind for sure!

Calcifer

Did you really know if Ellie was going to kill Abby at the end? Did it not surprise you that 1. She went to find her and 2. that she didn't kill her when she had the chance?

BlindRiot

I don’t know about the reductionist dismissal of fans who didn’t like the game. Ahh, you want to see ND fail or your a homophone. Also I assumed you guys would talk about the positive “review bomb” going on as well. The lack of a well considered review of the situation surrounding this game is surprising coming from these guys. Bummer.

BlindRiot

https://youtu.be/T6kT23VhJLQ This is what an actual looks like, enjoy.

Brett Carlson

I think it was thr exact correct length. Its long on purpose. You are supposed to feel absolutely exhausted and broken and beaten by the time your back to playing as Ellie and your bleeding out looking for Abby and Abbys strung up dehydrated on a beach. Thats the point is for it to feel exhaustive. I think this game is a masterpiece and the most mature story every told in a game. But I will sat i could have taken a nice 4-5 hour shaving off the top experience, but the length was intentionally done is all im saying. Obviously you can't dislike or like that fact in any way you choose

Brett Carlson

I have to say Colin i uttely adore this game. To me the first game is the ACTION and thr second game is the REACTION. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. As a writer this game is a masterpiece to me. A video game has never told a story this deep and mature. Just tell me this, love it or hate it.......what video game story has ever garnered this deep of examination on both sides of the field. Almost all video game stories are surface level. Even God of War; which had a great story, did not come close to eliciting the type of emotions this game has done for haters and lovers alike. This is truly a crowning moment in gaming simple for the fact that the whole gaming world is picking apart this story. It has so much subtext and so much left up to your own breakdown of your personal feelings. Naughty Dog is truly in a league of their own. None of this story felt cheap. It felt heartfelt and like it needed to be told. A worthy sequel that made the world much more interesting overall. Dying for a Part 3 and I think we get it seeing as Abby and Lev made it to Catalina Island.

Aaron Treble

Can't wait to listen to this. Reading the comments it sounds like it wasn't Chris' type of game. If he rushed through the Abby section he already had his mind made up at that point with how it felt about it and that would have tainted anyone's experience and made things drag towards the finish line. In saying that, each to their own. Maybe it's just not for him? I felt exhausted and empty by the end of TLOU2. And a few days after noticed a long-lingering anger towards a RL past experience had dissipated. I didn't get the feeling of 'WOAH!' like you did finishing the first game. But I got something more meaningful unexpectedly without any conscious effort or thought on my end. I liked the journey. I hated and didn't want to play as Abby and then loved Abby. The ending left me feeling empty and not complete. Druckmann has said no DLC, but I'm hoping there's DLC. I think it was an experience. I'm not sure how you score that. You just play it and whatever you feel is what you got from it.

Bogey Zero

Colin I'd really love to hear more of your opinions on the game. The first spoilercast seems to have been mostly you asking Chris how he felt and then moving on. For part 2 can you get more into what you disagree or agree with him on, what you loved/hate, etc. For example when Chris said how much he loved the Nora section, I very much agreed with him and was excited to hear your thoughts and you just moved on.

Joe McPartlin

Hoping your accident wasn't too serious and that your recovery is quick.

GabrieleEU

Just a few notes about some things that were said during the show. The non linearity of the story is what makes the game. I won't lie, I did hate the long Abby part at a certain point (I'd say before Abby starts killing WLFs, after that I was onboard with her even in the first playthrough), but looking back at it you really see the reason behind that and you realise the story is better served this way. I understand how it may have felt at first, I just think a bit more retrospective thought is needed with this game. The game IS about the relationship between Joel and Ellie. At its core it is, it's Ellie coming to terms with Joel's choice and ultimately forgiving him. The fact that he dies at the beginning doesen't mean the game isn't about Joel and Ellie's relationship. Let's not get distracted, this game is about revenge as much as the first one is about finding the cure for mankind. It's important to think what this game is about, at its core, not at the superficial level. And I think it's about forgiveness through empathy. As for the Seraphites, with Abby you fight them a lot. It's infected and Seraphites until she turns her back on the WLF. But the Seraphites are actually a lot in the game. Ultimately I really don't see the point of some moral judgements that were given. The game really doesn't say who's a villain and who's a hero, it just shows there are different perspectives to everything. Dividing people into good and evil just doesen't serve justice to this game and this world. Not everything is Avengers. Anyway, can't wait for the more story spoilery part next week! I'll leave my ramblings about the theme and the message for that part.

Anonymous

I feel like the dance scene was put at the end to show what Ellie lost because of revenge. It emotionally sucked seeing Jessie again after he died, and seeing Ellie look longingly at Dina makes me feel for their relationship even though it only lasted for this one game.

Zach Brown

Why play as Abby? I disagree that the game wants the PLAYER to hate Abby as much as the game wants the player to understand/empathize with why ELLIE hates Abby. Through this lens, game hopes that the player can pivot, especially when seeing Abby discovering her innocent father’s corpse, and be willing to align with her. I don’t think the player’s experience can SKIP playing as Abby because everything about Abby’s journey helps you understand Ellie’s path so much more. Abby’s journey away from obsession and towards the “light” actually BEGINS as her scenario starts in Seattle, and by playing Abby’s journey redemption through to completion, the player, unknowingly or not, is seeing the kind of emotional place where Ellie needs to go. If that isn’t clear to the player yet, it becomes so at the end. Still, both journeys need to be seen in their entirety, uninterrupted, for the actual climax in Santa Barbara to work. The idea of a “revenge story” isn’t what’s being told, but a redemption story about how we need to reclaim our humanity, especially in a world where it’s so easy to lose it, and playing as Abby helps realize that.

Michael Brennan

Let me preface by saying Naughty Dog is by far my favorite studio. Story driven, third person, action adventure games like theirs are what I prefer to play. This game flat out blew me away and made me feel emotions and ponder its events in a way no other game has. I don't care if people dislike it for whatever reason, everyone is entitled to their opinion (if they've actually played the game). Having said that, listening to Chris on this episode was extremely frustrating. I know he prefers game play driven games over strong narrative and wasn't a big fan of the original, but I just can't understand his criticism. Saying that the game would be better if it was more linear and that it ran out of things to say half way through is completely overlooking/ dismissing what I feel Naughty Dog accomplished. Admitting that he basically speed ran through the second half just to finish the game is a disservice. It's fine if he dislikes it, these types of games clearly aren't for him, but I would have liked to hear a deeper analysis of the thematic elements from someone who was more invested in the game rather than someone just dismissing it at face value because the didn't get invested in it.

Anonymous

I’ve never disagreed with a person more than Chris, but I appreciate his take.

Kenneth Oms

Also, the co writer, I forgot her name so sorry! But she talked about how they scrapped an entire section of Ellie being the one to visit the seraphite island. Which would have been awesome considering she’s immune and they are like this cult... it could have made for some great survival horror there

Edwin Garcia

I fee like Chris preferences on more twitchy games got to him on this one, you have to view it with the lenses of what the game is trying to be, which is narrative story telling experience. My opinion though, you can tell he plays on other platforms and he’s not a PlayStation centric gamer which is a good thing.

Samuel Ashley

I think the game did a great job of making me learn to care about Abby in a way that I didn’t think could happen after she kills Joel. When I first starting playing as Abby, I was rushing through the game to try to and get her part over with. But once I realized I’d be playing with her for a while, I forced myself to step back and really try and put myself in her shoes. I do think playing 10 straight hour with her was a little jarring, and made me really long to play as Ellie again, but I’m not sure how well they would have been able to push you towards building that relationship with Abby if they kept flip flopping between characters.

BlindRiot

I forgot to say that I loved this episode!

David Graham

They should have called it "Even Fewer of Us."

Chris

I was really looking forward to Colin's interpretation, but I think so many of the major points were missed by Colin and Chris on this one, though I'll admit I actually peaced out following the Last Jedi comparison. I remember having to stop playing after Joel's brutal murder. I asked myself, "am I ready for this right now?" I had forgotten what this series was. I was expecting the next big Sony game like God of War or Horizon. That's not what this is. This game took me through the 5 stages of grief, at times I was kicking and screaming. I'd let Abby die on purpose on occasion just because I hated her. I'm shocked about the assertion to tell it in a more linear way--I feel the order was paramount in taking me through these feelings. The first game generates FAR more pleasant feelings, but I would argue this one is more poignant. They use all of the unique components of the medium to take you on this journey. I imagine it will be more fun on subsequent playthroughs, but I largely did not find this experience fun--it tested my patience, it was deeply unsettling, thought-provoking, and made me assess myself in a way that maybe nothing else ever has. It's going to stick with me for a very long time.

Michael Brennan

I agree. I was disappointed Colin didn't contradict many of the things Chris said. Maybe he doesn't feel the need to disagree or perhaps he didn't analyze the thematic elements as much as I'd hoped. Chris said he didn't want to spend half the time playing as a character the game wants you to hate....the game doesn't want you to hate her or like her, it is simply providing the player with information and letting them decide for themselves. Of course you are going to hate her initially for killing Joel but then you realize the reason behind her actions and that her story is a parallel to what Ellie is currently going through. Losing someone you love, being consumed by anger and the thirst for revenge. Abby is now trying not find some happiness and light in her life after she lost those she cared about because she insisted on acting on the feelings of hate, that darkness that Ellie is now trapped in. The sunset scene on the farm that Chris dismissed as a joke is Ellie finally getting a semblance of peace and happiness, right before she throws it away because she can't get over grief and desire for revenge....she too will end up losing those closest to her. This game has so many layers and discussion points that I could go on and on. I just hope some of these themes get addressed in the next podcast because I feel it does the game a disservice to not put greater thought into it.

TheBufferPiece

Wait they removed the tape that talks about the other immune people!? I always wondered why nobody ever seemed to talk about that tape. It completely changed the way I looked at Joel's decision when I first played the original. There were other immune people and the procedure wasn't a guaranteed success according to that tape. So Joel's lie at the end of the game wasn't a complete lie to me because of that tape.

Cole Minder

Awesome discussion, you guys are great. Can’t wait for next week

Craig Mcguire

Nah people just completely misunderstood what the doctor says in the recording, it's still in the game. Ellie is the only immune person that they know of.

Anonymous

Great discussion. I think I fall in between Chris and Colin on the game - poorly paced, too long, but still a good game. Two points I wanted to bring up - did anybody else feel that the game just turned into a Resident Evil boss fight during the hospital boss fight? It was extremely immersion breaking for me, and seem to come way out of left field. My second point is that, maybe due to the length of the game, I don’t remember any individual encounter (aside from the above). There are so many, and they seem very impersonal. I remember every individual enemy encounter from the original because there were fewer, and they all seemed somehow more personal and individual. I can’t put my finger on the reason, but they each seemed lovingly hand crafted, while TLOU2 seemed to favour a quantity over quality mindset.

Aaron Treble

According to someone here, Isaac killed the Scars prophet. I didn't read those notes around the van. But they said that's where the story told you Isaac did it and it re-started the war between the two sides.

Domenico Smarto

I think I’m in the minority on this, but I enjoyed playing as Abby more than Ellie. Mainly because I was really underwhelmed by the revenge story line. I think it’s because I found Joel’s death mishandled it just didn’t hit me the way Naughty Dog wanted it to. Also Ellie’s characterization in this game just felt off to me. I also really enjoyed seeing the world of the last of us through a different character.

Anonymous

Just finished listening. It really feels like Colin doesn’t give enough of his own input during spoilercasts, he really just directly answers the listener questions and then hands it over to Chris to let him talk in circles. Not to rag on you guys, but this podcast just felt very one-sided even though it seemed Colin disagreed with many of Chris’ points, but just didn’t seem to feel like elaborating. Just a bit disappointing, but I’ll always be a listener and fan, just giving some input.

Anonymous

This game does warrant a 2 part / 4 hour discussion.

Jake Z

The game was 5 hours too long, but I wanted more on the Seraphites! Pick a criticism!

Cannonball_Jones

I totally understand that it can be challenging to articulate one's thoughts but I wish Chris could just say that sometimes instead of trying to rationalize his feelings. I doubt I'd do any better on a podcast but many of his critiques contradict each other and it's frustrating to hear him make vague claims about character motivations without actually offering any specifics. I loved the game but I could see why someone would dislike it. I also totally understand his perspective of not wanting to come across like the people who have a hate boner for the game, I just think Chris could've worded his critiques more thoughtfully.

Bogey Zero

Yes thank you! There were so many points in the podcast where I went "okay Chris has an interesting take here, man I can't wait until Colin gives his thoughts" and then he just moves on. I wish he'd insert himself a bit more into the conversation. Quite frustrating.

Anonymous

Agree with what a lot of others are saying, we need to hear more of Colin’s thoughts! I don’t think at any point in this did he actually just discuss in detail his overall thoughts on the game, other than saying it’s a 9/10. Would be interested in hearing you guys disagree more, as it seems like Colin actually disagrees with a lot of Chris was saying here, but doesn’t really mention it.

FourEyes Malone

I’m very surprised Colin missed that the Prophet of the Seraphites had died. Lev speaks of how the group started to change once she died and people took her words and reinterpreted them for the wrong things. But the Seraphites and Lev especially were there to teach jAbby that she doesn’t know everything and her mindset could be changed and when everybody she had was gone she was able to find more good in life.

TL

Listening right now and it may have been commented on, but the woman in the Seraphite artwork is already dead, that’s why you never meet her.

FourEyes Malone

Also, I felt a lot of distaste for Ellie once she couldn’t just leave it all alone and just stay with Dina at home. I’m sure they will talk about that in the next pod though.

Cannonball_Jones

Another response I have to Chris's criticism, why is it a bad thing that story beats try to convey emotion? I don't understand the critique of "the game is making me do [blank] to feel [blank]," which has been a consistent point of feedback. For example, Chris mentioned that the game tries to use Abby's sympathy for Lev as a way to get the player to like Abby. I just don't see how that's a negative? Is a story worse because you can see the seams that stitch it together? Chris himself said that these beats were used to make the player like the character, which the game effectively did for me, so I'm confused as to why that's considered a weakness of the game. This especially stuck out to me as minutes later, Chris said that he wished the game had more foresight to how the player would feel as playing as a different character after levying the criticism that the game's beats were trying to make him feel a certain way.

TL

Lev is my favorite of all the new characters and I agree that it’s integral.

Joe McPartlin

I took that as he would have liked some of the WLF story sacrificed in order to focus more on the Seraphites.

Nicole Humphrey

I really enjoyed the spoiler-cast and cannot wait for part 2. I disagree with Chris, but I appreciate that even though he did not enjoy the game, his reasons for doing so are absolutely valid. It was also great that he acknowledged the ways in which he saw how others could enjoy. Hoping we get more of Colin’s perspective in the next part. I would be particularly interested if the story touched either of you guys on an emotional level. One complaint: I think it was a bit cringe worthy when Colin misgendered Lev. The game makes great pains to avoid doing so and only does it in instances where it is clear that it is wrong to do so. We are left with the distinct impression that Lev is male, and to hear him be misgendered in this conversation was disheartening. Not sure if it was noticed and I’m sure it was unintentional so I wanted to point it out.

Aric Peña (@AricJP)

Hey, boys. Simple question: Isn’t Abby infected? Ellie bit her during their fight in the theater (in the first game she informs David that he’s infected after she bites HIM). Also, one of the prisoners you free from the Ratlers says that Abby’s bitten. Is Abby another immune person? Would love to hear you both discuss. Thanks!

Cannonball_Jones

Ellie's journal indicates that she learned she can't actually infect other people during her relationship with Cat.

Aaron Treble

Update having listened: Chris came across fine and had solid reasons explaining his side, seemed like he wanted to like it, but it didn’t do it for him. 7.5-8 is decent. Great episode. Can’t wait to hear more. Colin, you going for the plat?

Anonymous

The prisoner was referring to Ellie, that she was bitten (from the clicker on the rope).

Jake Z

Jesus christ, this was disappointing. Thank God you're doing a part 2. Colin, you said you loved the game and thought it was a 9, yet you hardly said anything about why you loved it! Why did it resonate with you?? Why did every aspect of the game get brought up as a question for what Chris thought about it? Do you have no thoughts of your own, besides I liked this character, I liked this part, I didn't like this part? Chris's thoughts were just as unreasoned. How would jumping back and forth between characters make the pacing any better? If you didn't care about Abbys story, why would playing as her intermittently be better? It would be even more jarring and make you dislike her even more for disrupting Ellie's story. Give some intelligent reasons for why you liked and didn't like different aspects of the game, and for the love of God talk more about the themes and merits of the storytelling in the next episode. And maybe take notes so you have something remotely as intelligent to say as this game! It deserves more!

Miles Williams

I honestly lost all drive to play when I got to the Abby part. I actually turned on the setting in accessibility where the game tells you where to go. I had no desire to even play it anymore. Which is a bummer to me... the first half was great!

Cannonball_Jones

Yeah, I was hoping for a more in-depth discussion and Colin touches on it a few different times like when looking at the differences between Jackson and the Seattle stadium. But there was way too much of "they should've done it like this" rather than examining what it is and giving the game's moments a more thorough examination.

RFK Rodgers 2024

Yeah gotta agree with Chris, playing as Abby sucks you out of the experience in a way. I changed my difficulty from hard down to easy because i just didnt care and i just wanted to get on with the story. The game is a solid 8/10 imo.

Caleb Greer

Halo 2 is how you introduce a new playable character and pace the game correctly. Halo 5 is a bad example of that. It seems many think TLoU:P2 Halo 5’d it.

Bogey Zero

If you want to listen to a discussion with different opinions, you should give Alanah Pearce's spoilercast a listen. She had on 2 people that loved it (one of them being Jeff Cannata) and 2 people that absolutely hated it. And herself who was somewhere in the middle.

Napoleon in Rags

Loved how Abby was included as much as she was. Playing as her you get to see the other side of the “villain” and see things from their perspective. No games really do this. This game made me think about all the enemies that you causally kill along the way and how each has an untold backstory. When they were fighting at the very end in the water, I honestly didn’t know who to root for. Starting on NG+ now.

Hodge

“I like ropes.” -Chris Ray Gun, 2020

TL

It was definitely a change but I still loved it. I honestly felt like the “balls to the wall” action set pieces were all given to Abby and that was one of a few that she had.

TL

Chris spoke well for his opinion even though I don’t agree. He feels that the game paints Joel as an asshole but I didn’t see that at all, other than seeing the former Fireflies and how they felt about it (perspective). Funny that years ago ND/Neil was adamant in portraying the Fireflies as gone (lol)! I did have trouble being in Abby’s shoes at first but she grew on me and I actually liked her cast more quickly than her. Owen was like the heart of that group, not bland to me at all. Manny was a joker/playboy. Mel was possibly a little one note if I had to be super critical, but she was fine as well I thought. I look forward to next week, I feel like this first part was (mainly) hashing out why Chris did not enjoy the story for reasons described, now we can move on to more.

Anonymous

When I finished I was in the same boat of Part 1 being superior that Part 2, but chipping away the platinum + meditating while hearing the sountrack, dang I'm convinced this as good if not better than part 1,what's more I feel part 2 is the first AAAA game I ever experienced.

Anonymous

The reason the dance sequence was left late was because you didn't have the context of Ellie Finding out Joel lied. And they didn't want you to think Ellie was in a bad way with Joel when he died.

Anonymous

I think the game would of been better swaping back and fourth between Abby and Ellie but I still throughly liked the game.

Elias Salcedo

I honestly don’t have much hours to play a week and I couldn’t force myself to finish this I wanted to enjoy this game so bad

Miles Williams

The difference between Raiden in MGS2, and the Abby switch, is TLOU2 makes you hate Abby before you play as her by killing Joel. Imagine if Raiden killed Snake, and then you had to play as him. It would of been just as hated.

Brett Carlson

That is literally the point though. Your supposed to hate her so you agree with Ellie murdering all her people. Then you play as her and see that her reasons were no more or less justified then Joels. Chris kisses the ENTIRE POINT. Joel is a fucking asshole lmfao. He sacrificed the entire human race for one girl. Are we not understanding the gravity of that decision. He murdered someone's father in cold blood and doomed the entire human race to death sooo.......thats the point. No one is good or bad. Everyone has a story in this deadly world. Life is so fickle that people hold on to whatever they get and Joel wasent willing to sacrifice his rediscovered humanity to find a cure.

sam croese

The game is a magic trick. From the jump it got me to feel exactly how it wanted me to. I was ready to slaughter everyone and laugh as I did it. But then it pulled the rug out from under me. I saw it trying to get to empathise with the villain and it put me in her shoes. And even then I said no. I won’t change my mind. I’ll always hate her. And then little by little I had my mind changed against my better judgment. And by the end I found my self completely on abbys side and just looking for an end to the violence. And that is why this game is every bit the 10/10 the reviews said it was. No other game has ever done that to me. The most frightening part of the game wasn’t even that hospital basement boss fight. It was how god damned effective the story telling was.

Jake Z

Beautifully said. I really do think the game is about love, just as the first one was. The flashbacks are wonderful and show how even though Ellie and Joel's relationship had been rocky recently, she still loved him, and that ultimate showing of love is in that final scene where she says she can try to forgive him. They're doled out perfectly too as those flashbacks of her love for Joel are mirrored in her hate for Abby, which drives her when you think she's losing motivation to still be chasing Abby. And then the very end is perhaps her realizing that she needs to find someone else to love as much as she loved Joel. It's about moving on and finding new love after loss. The game is so rich and I could go on and on. They really didn't do the game justice in this conversation.

Anonymous

I really did not like this game. It's an objectively well made game by any standard and the story will work for some people but it fails to replace what was good about the first game with something satisfying in my opinion. I'm with Chris that the gameplay loop is quite satisfying at the beginning of the game and is probably my favorite part, though I feel like the changes to shivs had a negative impact to some horror elements from the first game. As far as story beats are concerned I think it's weird that people expected Joel to survive the game in the first place, and I actually like how he dies. They killed him in the most disrespectful way possible and as a result it gets players in the intended mindset. The ultimate issue is that the core of the game is a deconstruction of the first. Ellie, Joel, and Abby kill people in some really fun but objectively horrific ways. It's satisfying to group people together and throw a pipe bomb to kill people who I assume have loved ones with generally no internal reflection or consequences. So when the game tries to cross examine the violence and consequences of violence in this world it seems silly. When you get to the climax it feels contrived and hollow in my opinion.

Dave Carsley

Can't wait to listen to this episode. I just finished the game. I'm not gonna lie, I'm pretty disappointed. In my opinion, TLoU is the best video game ever made, but part 2 doesn't even approach its greatness. The gameplay is fine, maybe even great, but either Neil Drukkmann completely lost touch with what made him a great writer, or he let Hallie Gross write this entire game. The end was totally unsatisfying, and I honestly couldn't have cared less about any of these characters when it was over. I watched EVERY tiny piece of content and interviews for the last 4 years. Hell, I've even re-watched the PSX 2016 reveal probably 50 times in the last 4 years just to tear up with excitement when I hear the people scream and know they were just as excited as I was for this. I know a lot of people loved this game, but I'm just not sure why. I'm really quite disappointed. Almost sad even. This was a major thing I was looking forward to in my life for years. This game's release was practically a life "milestone" I wanted it so bad. Ehhhhh... guess I'll always have the first game. They can't take that away!

Dave Carsley

I'm really not so sure Naughty Dog should be let off the hook so easily about lying to people in the trailers and showing Joel with Ellie in Seattle. I think you guys need to give more credit to the fact that you're not like "most gamers". In fact, most people in this Patreon aren't like most gamers. Most gamers don't play every game because they can't buy every game. You have to remember that Naughty Dog is *selling a product* here (and one that's not exactly cheap to many people). Trailers are advertisements. Most gamers are making choices about which one game they get to buy every couple months. Joel is a beloved character, and they sold people this product by directly telling them, "Hey! Buy this game and you'll get to go on another adventure across the country with Joel!" And that's not true. They could have just not showed Joel in the trailers, or showed one of the scenes with him in it in a weird way to disguise his death. Not showing something that's in the game in your advertisements is just fine. But directly showing things that are not at all in the game in your advertisement is not ok. I don't want that to be normal.

Anonymous

I'm kind of amazed Colin didn't agree with more of Chris's points here.

sam croese

(Just in regards to the why people loved it bit) Because I also watched every bit of content minus the leaks and I got exactly what I was promised. The game delivered. The game play was a vast step up from the first game, the graphics and design blew me the fuck away and the story subverted my expectations in the extreme and left me absolutely reeling and miserable. That is why I love it. The fact it got me to feel so deeply. It’s not my fav game of the generation but based on what it put me through i think it is the best. No other game has ever done that to me. That’s why it stands apart.

Zack E

This seems to be a bit of overreaction. I felt like it was pretty clear from the very first trailer that Joel was going to take a back seat in this game. I mean there was the notion of whether Joel would be dead even before the events of Part II with that original trailer. And I don’t know, I feel like people are getting too hung up about content of trailers, “advertisements” etc.

Tom Mack

I too didnt know how to feel as soon as I finished. I knew it was fucking great and the emotional response I had was unlike any other game I've played - but whether I enjoyed it more that Part 1 only came to me when I started talking to friends and seeing the discussion online by people who had actually played the game that I realised that Part 2 was on another level. I've had to write a review and story analysis just for myself to comprehend what I experienced and put it into words. Just brilliant.

Luke Silletta

I'm pretty much in 100% agreement with Chris. I understand the motivations of Abby and I get what ND was trying to do and what they wanted me to try to sympathize for her. But it just did not land like that for me and apparently a lot of other people. I've made a comparison with some friends that TLOU 1 is kind of like The Matrix and TLOU 2 is like The Matrix Reloaded. Obviously TLOU 2 isn't as bad as Reloaded but its really really hard to follow up literal perfection like The Matrix and I feel like TLOU had to do a similar follow up.

Barrett Boswell

It's eerie how Chris had pretty much the exact same feelings as I did of the game. I think the game is good but based on the structure and overall storybeats of the 2nd half, I enjoyed the 1st one much more.

Anonymous

I have never liked and disliked a game in equal measure, I was looking forward to taking control of two video game characters that I didn't realise until I loaded up this game meant so much to me. Then to be ripped out if that experience to play through the backstory of the person I was hunting for the first half of the game just didn't work for me. Sure it was fun initially to take control of Abbie but being force fed so much from her side of the story was a major fail and I almost out the game down after the final theatre scene when the timelines reconvene. Still an amazing game overall but what I'll remember most is locked doors and plot armour in equal measure.

Anonymous

On Abby’s physique; I think it’s a clever device in the game: 1) Because it’s a physical representation of Abby’s obsession with seeking revenge against Joel. 2) It instantly allows the player to know where in Abby’s timeline we are, throughout the various flashbacks. And 3) It makes it all the more shocking when you see Abby in the final scene. You immediately know any revenge would feel entirely hollow against such a diminished foe.

Anonymous

Gotta say I also lean towards a 7.5. Though I didn't agree with Chris' solutions.

Haydyn

I really don't know if you can complain about Abby's character motivations and development if you intentionally rush through her segments because you decided to check out of the experience as soon as you were placed in her shoes. At least Chris finished the game though I guess, unlike with Days Gone. Knowing that Chris wasn't a fan of the first one I was really looking forward to his perspective on Part 2. What we got was honestly too vague and he doesn't seem to be able to articulate his criticisms outside of narrative pacing. No need to hide behind the notion that any legitimate gripes will be thrown in with the metabombing crowd, the SS audience isn't that petty. This was a disappointing discussion. Looking forward to part 2 though, hopefully a bit more distance makes for a more robust conversation.

Anonymous

Hi CnC, first time writing in to the spoilercast, wastent able to write this in time for the first part so tought i might just add it here instead. I really enjojed the gameplay/animation/music/grapichs but i feel that the game rides or dies on if you like Abby or not, and for me who dident like her had to drag myself throw her 10 story. and what pissed me of even more was that they had the audacity to make me play Abby figting Ellie, that just left a bad taste in my mouth. and ofc big suprise the game is strongest when Ellie and Joel are the focus. And one of my favorite moments is when ellie sing Take on Me, which i later realised its a skipble cutsceane

Anonymous

Chris is absolutely correct that the main issue with this game is the order the story was told in. I felt this as soon as I finished the game and when the story was dragging and too slow in the last quarter of the game. Imagine if you, the player, had gone back and forth playing Ellie and Abby throughout the game, not knowing how they related to each other (assuming you hadn't seen the spoilers, which I hadn't) and then it's revealed late in the game you were tracking Joel because he had killed your father. That would have been a "WOW" moment for gamers because they'd be torn during the Abby vs Ellie fights on who they were rooting for. Still enjoyed the game, but longing for another universe where the order was different just to see how people would respond.

Anonymous

Yeah they respect Levs identity in the game so to hear him misgender and dead name him is indeed disheartening. I don't think Colin meant it maliciously but it did sour the rest of the episode for me.

Cannonball_Jones

Yeah, I think Abby landing for the player is very contingent on giving her a chance even though you really don’t want to play as her at first. If you rush through and it and don’t give it a chance then you’ll likely never be on board, which is fine. But if you’re open to learning her story and playing with the same attention you’d give Ellie then you’re way more likely to buy into her character.

Carlos Quintanilla

Have to agree with Chris. Though I overall believe the game is truly a singular experience, there were times I actually hated playing it. I was so angry to the point that I didn't even examine the upgrade trees for Abby at all. It's still a 8/10 for me personally, but I can understand why some are calling it a masterpiece.

Liam Mcnulty

Honestly, I'd happily doom the human race for my daughter, even if she was adopted. I'd light the match with a smile on my face 😂the world of TLOU didn't deserve Ellies sacrifice, everyone they bumped into was pretty much scum. Let them turn into mushrooms

Anonymous

We can talk about the flow of the story for years but what I want to talk about is the hospital parking garage encounter, I loved it! The atmosphere is terrific and when you finally come face to faces with the Rat King it's brilliantly terrifying. It's like a cross between Mr. X and the end creature from Inside except in my opinion much more memorable.

Anonymous

this was a good discussion. i look forward to hearing more from colin in the follow up. i think the game hinges almost entirely on whether or not you like abby. obviously there is lots of other stuff to talk about but that seems like the biggest point of contention between people who like or didn't like the game. most people are able to empathize with her story/motivations but by making her a playable character for 10 hours you really need the player to like her, not just empathize with her. i really tried to give her a chance but, in the end, i was never able to connect with her and it caused her section to drag for the 10 hours. there were so many great elements of this game but because of this and a few other things i would give it a 7/10 overall.

Aaron Trahan @AaronMadeULaugh

I played the game and loved it. I listened to part 1 of your spoiler cast and here are a few thoughts. I think that we got just enough with the Seraphites storyline., but it could have been explained better. Their prophet died and that’s when the cult started to get violent and things started to get bad. Lev asks Abby if she read their prophet’s teaching and she said a little. Lev says that it could help her. Also, you start the game as Abby, so I wasn’t that surprised to go back to her. Only it had been so long I almost forgot.

Aaron Trahan @AaronMadeULaugh

I do have a few problems with the game, like the chapter select is clunky and broken. It forces you to have backup save file because it overwrites your save. This is important in trophy hunting. Why are all the safes combination locks? Some could have been a key or needed the rope to pull off heavy debris on top of it.

Cannonball_Jones

If anyone who is feeling sour on the game (which is totally fair) is looking to understand what people loved so much about this game, I’d recommend reading through this piece. It goes through much of the game beat-by-beat in a way that clarifies emotional sentiment shared by a player with a very similar experience to me and I absolutely loved the game. https://t.co/FhGzrxTbo8

Aaron Trahan @AaronMadeULaugh

I hope there’s a part 3 to the game. Abby tells Fireflies that Ellie is still alive and is immune and there’s another scientist that can use Abby’s Dad’s notes. Abby goes to search for the scientist. Meanwhile Ellie is out soul searching trying to figure out life after losing Dina , JJ, and still grieving Joel. She talks to Tommy and he’s relaxed on his vengeance for Abby. They talk about the rift between her and Joel over his decision to kill everyone and save her. She tells Tommy that she understands why Joel saved her, but if she could have done it all again she would have rather have died to save humanity. Tommy tells Ellie that there’s a rumor that the Fireflies are back and gathering doctors and scientists. Ellie goes to find them, but has a hard time finding them because she can’t tell anyone why she wants to find them and the Fireflies are still regrouping. Abby finds scientist and then takes her to safety. Ellie finds a former Firefly that is headed back to new base to be a Firefly again. Abby brings back scientist and Ellie is there. Ellie sacrifices herself to become the cure. Game is linear, but jumps back and forth between Ellie and Abby.

Anonymous

Same here! I was rushing when I first began to play as Abby. But as it went on I genuinely couldn't believe how much she was growing on me. And by the end of it all, I even saw Ellie a bit different during their fight.

Matthew Major

Hello C&C I want to know what your options are on the trophy’s? I’m very happy with them I hated them in the last of us but this game is way more fair and manageable. Not sure if you agree thanks you for all you do!!

Tony Colton

On second playthrough I have just finished Ellie's 3 days and I've only had to kill 1 person (other than cutscenes) and that was to get the keys for the car at end of Hillcrest

Your Boi Nicky V

I pretty much agree with Chris though I think we should have played as Ellie all the way through and killed Abby then unlocked Abby's campaign and realised what we'd done. Think that would have hit a lot harder and solved the issue of the game completely losing momentum halfway. Some of you getting upset that Silly Chris doesn't like the game need to get a grip.

Anonymous

Hi guys, Just wanted to comment on part 1 of the spoilercast. There were a handful of youtubers with various size fanbases that were getting strikes on their channels just for talking about the leaked spoilers of the game. No video was shown at all on some. I think this may have lead to some of the review bombing we saw for this game. I imagine a creator would get a strike and their fans would mobilize a campaign against the game. Just an observation I thought I would point out.

Oliver Johnson

Not sure if my comment was deleted for being critical or if its just the bad Patreon app but... I have to say this was a pretty disappointing spoiler cast. It was dominated by Chris and it's fine to not like the game but I just don't find it productive or thoughtful to harp on the way he thinks it should be structured rather than considering how or why it is structured the way it is. The writing for Abby's story was completely dependent on how it was structured and to have the conversation entirely be "this isn't how I wanted it to be" doesn't allow for any consideration of what is in the game. To use the usual criticism of this game as an example: it's fine for people to say "I didn't want Joel to die so I don't like it" but it's not an interesting conversation because it has nothing to do with what the game actually is. I felt like Chris leaning into what the game isn't felt a lot like that and I was really hoping to hear a more thoughtful critique of the game.

Mr. Joanna Dark

I don’t’ understand the hate this game is getting or was getting prior t it’s release. To me this game is the equivalent of MSG5 in terms of stealth mechanics and gameplay. But with a better story than MSGV, which had none. I feel that the game was a bit to long and could of been shorter. I didn’t like Abby as much and she is the Agent Locke of this game. I would of preferred to play as one of the Scars and meet their leader. I get what Naughty dog was going for, in trying to drive the overall theme “Revenge”, but after Abby killed Joel, I didn’t need to see everything else. The fact that Ellie spared her, also took away, what I thought was the driving force behind the story and felt like a cop out. But overall this is still in my opinion the game of this generation, until I get my hands on Cyberpunk. I hope we get a final and third game and this time, maybe we get a more coherent and tighter narrative. I would of also, loved if this game was based in the Last of us universe and we played the conflict of the Wolf’s and the scars, that would of been better and then in the third, we get Joel and Eli back.

Chris

I’ll give you guys a pass on this one since you were both kinda in the middle of some big moves, but the interpretation here is pretty rough to me, when normally I feel you’re much more thoughtful and analytical. So much of the harsher criticisms felt so half-baked, like criticizing the lack of seraphite backstory but asking why we never meet the woman in the iconography (she’s dead). That aside, I think it’s clear that they succeeded in the emotional beats they were going for. No one wanted to play as Abby. Everyone knew they were going to try to make you empathize with her immediately, and you were meant to be resistant for hours. Never connecting with her and never seeing that Lev becomes to Abby who Ellie was to Joel or never losing motivation for revenge could be either a failure of design or a reflection of the character of the individual playing the game. I think in many ways criticism should be more geared toward whether this game succeeded in making you feel the way it intended, rather than if it made you feel something you wanted to feel. Generally, I think those who respect the artistry behind bringing about these emotions rate this game highly, while those with less focus and understanding about the bigger picture are getting lost in the weeds and more critical. In my opinion, the emotion brought about by Journey, the guilt you feel at the end of Shadow of the Colossus, and the emotional rollercoaster of unpleasant emotions this game takes you on are triumphs of the medium. If this game takes you through the stages of grief, and you roll credits on this game feeling empty, they succeeded.

Anonymous

I agree with Chris’s point about how Abby’s relationship with Yara and Lev did kind of feel like a way to just make you like her more. Like “Oh look at Abby being a mother figure towards these kids. She’s actually pretty nice.” I’d have preferred it personally if Naughty Dog focuses more on fleshing out the relationships with the characters she already knew. Like that Jordan guy who was apprehensive of killing Ellie at the school, even though he very clearly wanted to kill her at the lodge. Maybe him an Abby team up for a bit and you get insight into the characters. Because as it stands when Abby’s friends die, I found it funny just because of how quick most of them were. When Manny died I just laughed cause it was just so quick.

TL

That kind of ending is predictable IMO, really hope they don’t go for that.

Shubham Goyal

I agree with a lot of what Chris had to say. I didn't always have the same experience as him but our overall thoughts resonate. My biggest problem with the TLOUP2 is that it puts all its eggs in 1 basket - revenge plots. For a convincing revenge plot you need to be invested in the characters. That can happen in 2 ways - you are fully in on the character's motivations and you want what they want. Or you don't agree with the character's choices but you care enough about them to see their story through. When it comes to character motivations, I understand why Ellie and Abby did what they did, but the game failed to convince me about the emotional impact of those motivations. You don't get to spend enough time with the father figures. Had they front loaded some of Joel's flashbacks, it probably would have worked a little better. But the game takes so long between the emotional impact points, that you just don't develop the kind of relationship that the writers hoped to achieve on paper. Back to the second way - caring about but not agreeing with the character - the game tries to use Dina as an agency to do that with Ellie and largely succeded for me. Abby is a new character so obviously they had to develop her in a different way and this is where the game sucked me out of the story and its flaws became evident. Its not because i dislike Abby and don't care about her - I do. In fact I think i ended up liking Abby more than Ellie. Its because the games tries to guilt you into feeling a certain way about both characters using some very cheap tricks. Killed the dog ? Bad Ellie. Killed a pregnant lady ? Bad Ellie. Saved a pregnant lady ? Good Abby. I say cheap tricks because the moment these events happen, I didn't think about the character concerned or the emotional impact. Instead my first thoughts were "oh, so that's what the writers are trying to do with the story." And these moments kept happening in the second half of the game to the point that I felt nothing when I had the sniper encounter with Tommy - it was obvious the writers tried to turn everything around and I could see it coming. The thing that i didn't see coming was Lev and that was genuinely one of the best moments in the game and I truly cared about Lev and Abby. But you play long enough to realise Abby is to Lev just as Joel was to Ellie. And so all these moments that were meant to be shocking and have a profound emotional impact on the character and hence the player just kind of fell flat - again and again. And by the time I was back to playing Ellie in California, I was dreading the game. I wanted it to be over. I have never had to think so hard to understand my feelings about a game. All that said, I still think this game is a solid 7/10 and worth playing. I don't love it and I definitely don't mindlessly hate it. But Naughty Dog put all their bets on the revenge plots and failed to deliver for me. Maybe the reason this game is so divisive is because of people's personalities ? I've never been a supporter of hate and revenge and I clearly had a hard time buying into it.

Anonymous

This is probably the most flawed 10/10 I’ve ever played. The game is so far above the first game in a lot of ways, specifically gameplay and stealth elements, the workbenches, the triggers for some of the optional conversations and moments, and crafting mechanics. I was fascinated by the WLF inner struggles and small groups within other groups, and the Seraphites side plot with Lev and Yara. There’s so many times I said “Holy shit, this is the best I’ve ever seen a game do *insert things here*.” However, there’s also some pretty middling segments or decisions I really don’t care for. I think almost the entirety of Abby’s day one section is so slow and monotonous with segments where they hammer into you “These are people too” with the kindergarten, running into scuffed Ashton Kutcher with the scar tattoo, and starting all over on another set of skill trees. There were also massive segments of the game where my jaw dropped and I just wondered “How the fuck is my PS4 not turning into an IED and just exploding currently?” Specifically Ellie in the boat, the tunnel segment with the first shambler encounter, the sniper segment, the sky bridge, and the seraphite island burning down (probably my favorite part of the entire game). Would have probably preferred a little more time with Joel and perhaps cutting some of that first day and putting in the factions mode. But regardless, I absolutely adore this game and find it to be a satisfying and interesting follow up to possibly my favorite game of all time

Anonymous

I have to agree that the spoilercasts structure come across as somewhat as Colin interviewing Chris. I get that you guys want to make the listeners feel included by using their questions, but at points I wish you guys would just vibe with each other and let the conversation flow a little more naturally. That being said, you guys are the best!

Matthew Cooper

Interestingly, I'm about 6 hours into my second playthrough and I'm liking the game quite a bit less. It's just too long and slow paced. In the first game I'd be entering the Winter section by now, here I'm finishing up Ellie's day 1. Part 2 has a masterpiece in it, but it's very diluted, too much downtime, too many story threads. It's actually a very long time before you encounter a human enemy, took me like 4 hours. I'm honestly not sure I want to bother continuing my new game plus..

Ryan Murdoch

I agree with chris on this one. I really wish the game was shorter.

Anonymous

Hopefully the second part is more than Chris just whining about his disdain for Abby’s half of the game.

Anonymous

The thing is people like Chris think in all games characters death’s should be defined by how cool and relatable they are.. but in a game where the world is so dark and unfair and realistic in that way. It’s the Emerson of the game making the world truly feel cruel and unfair and people can’t handle it doesn’t go the way they want even though in real life you don’t always get what you want just like people don’t want to accept that in the real world. The game almost should give you the feeling that you need to cherish your loved ones in real life because they could be taken out unfairly.

Anonymous

This is worth the wait!! Holy smokes, can’t wait for part 2.

Anonymous

I wish you would have defended the game more Colin. You and I have very similar taste in media and my already high opinion of the game has grown over the week since I finished it. If this was a novel or prestige tv it would be on the shelf with Gilligan and McCarthy. But I think it’s elevated even further because it’s a game. When you get another characters perspective, you actually have to become them. It’s powerful. The game is powerful. The last of us 2 legit has no peers in the “powerful” department. Love you guys. I hate it for Chris and others that they didn’t like it. It’s a masterpiece for me and more that I could have hoped for from a sequel to my favorite game. Keep making video game podcasting great again. Xoxo

Anonymous

Wasnt it stated the fireflies had known of other immune people, and it didnt work. Plus they may have become overlords with the vaccine even if it did work. I have a hard time seeing Joel as a bad guy.

Anonymous

In my opinion FF7R is much better

Anonymous

I’m very frustrated by Chrises take on the game. It does not sound like he gave Abby a chance at all. I didn’t want to play as her either, but I gave her a chance. If I had ran through everything, I wouldn’t care about the game at all either. You may say that they game should make you want to play as her so Chris should have been given reason enough to slow down. But if I decided to run through every game I’ve come to love, I would not enjoy or learn to empathize with any character. Also one thing that annoyed me and made me feel you guys had not truly given the game its full chance, was when they talked about the Saraphites and it’s leader. Lev talks about her being dead and her writings not having any violence in them, it started after she died. You guys didn’t acknowledge that, which made me feel as if you maybe glossed over many moments that help you understand the world more. I’m sure Colin may have heard that but like I said, Chris didn’t want to empathize with or even give Abby a chance. So yea, your not gonna like or enjoy the game if you haven’t even given the character your playing as a chance.

Jeremy

I'm so happy to hear Chris felt exactly how I felt on most of the game and Abby. I hated the game, and I have fair reasons, I don't like how those of us who loved the original and not this one are being insulted :/ Thank you Chris for being honest!

Anonymous

I wish sony gave the budget and staff of this game ( except the writers ) to santa monica

kevin berger

Abby is amazing. I honestly feel like if you don’t like her. You didn’t interact with other characters while you played as her. Or we’re not able to view her actions in the right lens Also, the ending is phenomenal. Portraying that revenge shouldn’t always be the option is fantastic. Now Ellie lost Dina and JJ and she can no longer connect with her memory of Joel through playing the guitar. That’s fucking amazing story telling I’m sorry. Also, Ellie allowing Abby to live and to help Lev live is a major growing moment and sheds light on how humanity should be. The trailers and everything make you think this game is about revenge, but it’s about forgiveness and acceptance and growth. For that I will love this game more than the first one. It’s also called part two. People who don’t play the first game should have the brain power to realize they might be missing some story elements. 10/10

kevin berger

Abby is boss. She’s better than Ellie. I love them both but Abby is my favorite. Idk if I connect with her more because my father died in the last couple of years. But seeing Abby’s transformation is amazing.

kevin berger

I wanted to play as Abby from the get go. The way she fucking destroyed Joel made me love her (and I love Joel) I knew she had hatred brewed up for a long time. I was very excited to see why she hated him so much.

Anonymous

I would like to hear the reasons. I’m only frustrated with Chrises take because he ran through the second half. If your were like “well I hate Abby from the little bit I’ve seen, so I’m not gonna like this character no matter what” that’s BS. I keep hearing people saying I felt like the game was trying to make me like them. Abbies performance, and journey is as real as Ellie and Joels from the first game.

james o halloran

The main problem with this game is that you can feel the writers in the writing. What I mean is the writing is a subtle as a sledge hammer I completely opposite to the first game. Revenge is bad ok we get it, Abbys group is a an absolute mirror for Ellie to highlight the links between them ok we get it, look Ellie lost her fingers so she could no longer play the guitar OK WE GET IT.

Anonymous

Hello Seamen. I am writing to ask if there were any theories you had about where the story was going to end up during your play through. Because of the trailer, I thought the Joel death was going to be another fake-out and he was actually going to help Ellie get Abby and co. The other was that I felt that because you were playing as Abby for so long, there was some connection between Ellie and her (possibly related) I also thought for a while that you would find out at some point that she was also immune to the virus as well.

Zibi Majewski

Dear Colin & Chris, Writers and storytellers usually praise themselves for creating characters people grow very attached to, unfortunately the current discourse surrounding TLOU2 story is that it has divided the fanbase on large scale, to a degree where fans are fighting among each other and what's more worrisome is that vitriol has been largely targeted at the writers of the medium and even the actors who play said fictional characters (sad case of Laura Bailey receiving hate messages and death threats from crazy gamers who hated Abby and somehow found the connection between them sufficient enough to warrant such despicable actions). Neil Druckman took it upon himself to reply to one such comment saying: "Look... I get it. You love these fictional characters... but... they’re not real. You do know that, right? Guys... don’t be scared of therapy. Think of it like working out for your brain." Do you think it's fair to dismiss people who are so invested in these stories and yet praise them everytime the feedback is more favorable? What are your thoughts on this debacle surrounding an unprecedented level of love/hate relationship this game has received and our medium as a whole?

BlindRiot

I’m so over third person “movie” games. They’re like dressed up Tell Tale games.

Jajcen Harris

Yea I think those people need to chill out. Joel was as antihero as you could get. In the world they created, decisions have consequences. There is no criminal justice system, so humans in that world have the right to seek revenge. Joel set back the human race for who know how long with his selfish decisions. Don't let his relationship with Elie cloud the fact that he isn't a great person...

Anonymous

Chris was always going to hate this game. He's not a deep narrative kinda guy....he's a halo and doom guy. Which is fine but I don't need to hear 2 hours of his takes...its like asking me what I thought about Transformers 3...no one who is interested in that movie wants to hear me shit on it for 2 hours. Can we maybe get a Knockback on TLOU2 so we can have a more adult conversation about its narrative and themes?

Zibi Majewski

Oof. I have to agree with Mr. Stevens here. Chris' insight and knowledge are very limited in regards to TLOU2 plot because it's clear he didn't care much about it above superficial level and wanted to skip the story bits to quickly jump to gameplay; which in turn only made the last spoilercast that much more bland to listen to, when Chris was mainly the one speaking.

Anonymous

Chris’ critique of the fact that “you just go into a bunch of rooms and mash triangle to open cabinets for loot” can also be said for one of the greatest games of all time and one of Colin and Chris’ favorites, Bioshock. How is mashing triangle any different from mashing X in bioshock to search every god damn trash can and desk? It’s the environmental storytelling that makes that loop especially rewarding, which both games do excellently. If you didn’t like the game, you’re entitled to that. That’s fine. Having finished it yesterday, however, and having an open mind and trying to understand where people are coming from with their critiques of it, I’m struggling to see from their perspective. It just seems like the power of the game and the structure was lost on a lot of people. Maybe that’s a flaw in the narrative design, but I don’t know, it was extremely effective for me. I will say the pitch for making it more “chronological” and starting in the past and playing Day 1 as Ellie, then Day 1 as Abby and so on and so forth, sounds atrocious. I would’ve hated that. That would’ve left the player absolutely nothing to ponder and question as they went through the game. I adored the way they did it.

Timothy Monnig

I'm late to this party, but I found the discussion on the podcast and in the comments section very interesting. I respect everyone's opinion and it's great to see the diverse feelings of the community and how their experience compares to mine, especially given how much ambiguity Naughty Dog imbued in the storytelling and the gameplay. Earnest polarization is to be expected, and I think that in itself, and the discussions that it engendered, make this game rise to the level of "art" in a way that few others can, which I the best compliment that I can offer. We all carry our own baggage everywhere we go in life, so I, as with politics, won’t begrudge anyone’s feelings about the game, so long as they are earned in good faith. As in politics, reflexive vitriol helps no one, and actively undermines the conversation. As an aside, I tend to fall on the "video games are not art" and “artistry does not necessarily equal art” sides of the line, despite my love for them, as I feel like player agency and requisite gamey-ness tend to get in the way, but there are an increasing number of exceptions, and in the case of the Last of Us 1 and 2, the ability to marry the storytelling and the gameplay in such cohesive, subtle, and self-reinforcing ways signals the way forward for the medium, when comparing it to more mature (read: developed) art forms, especially in their ability to tackle challenging and complex themes. And moreover, how the game used and and subverted player agency (sometimes to its detriment) demonstrates how closely they were thinking of it, and it amplified their successes and failures. All that said, not every game needs to be the Last of Us Part II, but some should, and the medium had plenty of room for all types of experiences (e.g. my two most anticipated games this year were Last of Us 2 and Doom Eternal), and we have to remember that there’s a difference between “movies” and “films” and what they ask of their audience, but they both have their place. I will say that it seems for a gameplay-centric gamer like Chris, the Last of Us 2 had a much finer line to walk than with someone like me, who has wanted to see games occupy forms and themes like this for going on three decades. If I had to pick out one thing to argue with Chris about, it has to be his aversion to the non-linear story structure, and I guess I’d start by asking about how he feels about this techniques, in general, in other mediums, particularly movies, where time management is very deliberate device. I think it’s telling if you didn’t like the way “Dunkirk,” which used it as a mechanism to corral a bunch of generally nameless characters into something emotionally compelling (and the convergence of the three timelines, in real time, essentially serves as the climax), or Pulp Fiction, where the character’s importance in the ensemble was dictated by their relative importance in the sub-story, e.g. Vincent’s death had no profundity, as filmed, until measured against Jules’ decision at the end of the movie, or Citizen Kane, where the whole film is essentially a reconstruction of a man’s life from interviews in an attempt to understand him (and a macguffin, basically). It can also be Westworld, which, while great in many ways, manages to be so opaque at times that it risks scuttling its own themes, which is apropos, since Halley Gross co-wrote Westworld and Last of Us 2, and I think this game has the same struggles at times. That said, I think the non-linear narrative was the best choice for this game, and I think it enriches the story in pretty unique ways, but I’ll also grant that if non-linear narrative isn’t really your jam, I wouldn’t expect that to change here. I’ll try not to belabor this, since this post is already too long, but I’d like to detail some ways in which I think it succeeds: 1. It allows you to carry over the central tension from the first game for much longer, i.e., “Does Ellie know what Joel did, and how does she feel about it?” 2. It also opens the question in the middle of the game, which was answered at the end, if the Firefly’s had given Ellie the choice, what would she have chosen? Instead they gave Joel no choice, and no time to process it any other way. 3. It maps Ellie’s revenge narrative as a direct FOIL to her declining relationship with Joel over four years, which per point one, gets exposed to us gradually, and it forces us to continue to re-evaluate this relationship in the context of her present mission, which as it continues, it loses its seeming purity. And the Joel sequences are arguably the best part of the game, because of the emotional resonance they offer. In modern times, Ellie’s quest is revenge, yes, but it’s surrounded a nebulous stew of grief and a need to atone brewed in a pot that’s too large for anyone of even sound mind to stir, and yes, it will get served cold. Why would Ellie go through this much suffering for a man she had grown to disdain? The flashbacks map this state of mind better than front-loading they segments. 4. The non-linear narrative demonstrates that Ellie and Abby’s arcs are basically the same, in reverse, but our relationship with each of they is not on equal footing. Ellie has farther to fall for us, and we don’t have a reason to care about Abby at the start of the game (at least not with any emotional resonance). If you pushed the death of Abby’s dad (from her POV) to the front of the game, and then she showed up to kill Joel, how would that change things for the player? If you cross-cut between each player’s sequences to maintain narrative cohesion (Seattle Day 1 is Seattle Day 1), what does it gain you? Abby basically doesn’t know about the Trespassers until Day 3, and they are a problem, but they aren’t “the problem.” These are not two freight trains barreling towards each other for most of the game; Ellie is basically a heat-seeking missile to the end, which is deeply uninteresting, until you consider how maligned her mental state is. I tend to view these characters as two halves of the same circle. Ellie rage-fuelled descent into darkness is basically her arrival at where Abby and Joel were at the start of their stories. We should lose sympathy for Ellie as she does increasingly attrocious things and cuts herself off from those who love her (kudos to the game for compelling me to kill fewer people as the game progress; would have really loved a proper non-leathal option, so I could still explore the environment unaccosted; the game does not balance these goals well). When we play as Abby in the present day, she has already been where Ellie now is, so that moment of handing off the narrative is rather apt. Abby has farther to climb, and in finding some highly contextual humanity in the Seraphites, she rediscovers, as Ellie had with Joel, the relationships that she stopped valuing, only to lose them again. I feel like the game oversteps at the end, with the onus on Ellie to realize that their collective loss and suffering was enough, as Abby had, but I will grant that if I was writing this game, I’d have a hard time admitting that Ellie, whose every encounter with Abby up to this point was characterized by extreme violence, would just be able to let it go, but suffice to say, I hated that fight, because I felt for both of them at that point, and didn’t want that world to claim either. I’ve got a ton more to say obviously, but I’ve already said too much. Interested to hear your thoughts in part 2.

Gamble

Hello everyone, I’m about 40 minutes into the podcast and I have to say that I completely disagree with Chris. I respect his opinion, but I’m noticing a trend among those who are reviewing/talking about TLOU Part 2. Many are rushing through the game, especially when they take control of Abby. Personally, I loved this game. Does it top the first part? No, but it does amplify Naughty Dogs talent. To me this game gave me everything that I wanted from this universe. Future Days being played constantly by Joe and Ellie through out the game is exactly how they feel and why they continue their path of revenge. They loved each other and they both went to extreme measures for each other. Ellie’s revenge path lead her to lose everything she worked hard to gain (Dina, her fingers for playing the guitar, and the son that Dina had). Joe’s life being taken away early in the game was a difficult scene to process. I loved Joe’s character and what he represented. While I continue to listen to Chris and everyone else’s criticism of this game, most of these voices fail to talk about the beautiful moments in the game. Ellie playing the guitar for Dina in the music store in Seattle was a perfect and heartfelt moment. The Museum scene with Ellie and the space shuttle was beautiful. Moments like this made the game special to me and unique. There is a certain type of magic that this world brings to the player. I believe that those who consume this game without taking the time to genuinely enjoy those moments will lose sight of what Naughty Dog is trying to show us. Abby was great and I loved getting to know her friends and why she built herself up to this strong leader who wanted to take down Joe for the killing of her father. I do believe that the transition was a bit off. When I began playing as her, I thought the segment would only last less than an hour. When I began to find collectibles in her segment, I knew that there would be a deeper story to tell. The ending to me was perfect. We know that Lev and Abby made it to Catalina Island (Neil has already confirmed this) and the start screen is no longer foggy. Ellie and Abby mirror each other. Abby realized that she lost everything and killed Joe, but by doing so she did not feel truly complete. Abby was able to move on, but Ellie, like Joe, needed to finish her path. Again, I respect Chris and others views towards this game. I just noticed that many break down this game to its roots and forget that it’s a piece of media to consumed and not dissected. I have noticed that I have gotten pretty upset with those who tear down this game. I don’t go after them in any way. For example, Angry Joe recently reviewed the game and I disliked his video review. I felt that he did not give the game chance. He broke it down and began to pick at the pieces he disliked. He also played the game with two other friends while yelling at the screen. To me, how can you truly enjoy something like this with so many distractions around you. The same goes for Chris, he rushed through parts of the game and may have missed small moments that make this game special. This is the first time that I have ever written on the community thread. I just felt the need to express my feelings towards a game that means a great deal to me. Keep up the great work everyone, I love this podcast and I’m glad we are getting a second spoiler cast. Stay safe.

Anonymous

Thanks for this. Articulated my feelings on the game very well.

Anonymous

Well said. Hopefully Colin will talk about some of this in the second spoilercast. First one was just Chris complaining that he bought a ticket to see Shawshank Redemption and it didn't have Vin Diesel or the Rock in it...

Anonymous

The problem is you apparently didn't get it. The theme of the story isn't only "revenge bad". Its one of the many through lines. Forgiveness, loss, dealing with loss, empathy, how we personally justify the things we do, catch-22 situations, love, sacrifice....among others. Don't be so reductive.

Anonymous

To each their own...I'm actually enjoying it more and it was a 10/10 for me. Waking up as Ellie and realizing it is the morning after Joel and her had the heart to heart on the porch and possibly are going to find a way to reconcile. And its also the day Joel dies. Then shortly later hearing Dina ask Ellie what her plans are for that night....and she's going to watch a movie with Joel. Probably the first time they've hung out for a year. So many things like this...so many little details that take on a new light.

Anonymous

No one is upset that Silly Chris doesn't like the game. The posts I'm seeing simply don't agree with him and think his reasons are flawed and superficial...but its fine that he didn't like the game. Its great actually, I generally hate any media that tries to be all things to all people. Mostly people wish we could have heard more nuance from Chris, some input from Colin, and a better conversation about the game. I love Sacred Symbols but their podcast on this game is probably the worst and most boring conversation about TLOU2 that I've listened to.

Anonymous

You're describing a completely different game, with completely different narrative goals. I like the story we got MUCH more than the very typical and common story you're describing. I'm sorry that you didn't like the game as much as I did but fortunately there are literally 1000s of games with the narrative form you're looking for, so try not to begrudge this one for being in the 1% of video games that try to do something different.

Anonymous

Try playing through it again with all you know now. You might feel different about the second act. Also, the shock and pain of losing Joel might not be so powerful and you might be more open to Abby's story. Cheers!

Anonymous

I'm amazed he didn't disagree with them more. Colin typically really enjoys deep, nuanced stories that are realistic, dark and make you think.

Anonymous

In The Last of Us 1, Ellie says that everyone she's ever known has left her or died. She says that her greatest fear is ending up completely alone. I appreciate that the writers were going for a heartbreaking, bleak ending where that becomes a reality, and i honestly love bleak endings (Dark Souls 3 has one of the bleakest endings ive ever seen and i love it), but i don think it's told well. All of the events leading up to that point just don't feel well written. The writers bludgeon your with cheap emotional tricks to try and force you to feel and it's a way to hide otherwise bad writing, which sadly too many people seem to be falling for. First and foremost, Joel died for nothing. If Ellie had been murdered, Joel would have burned down heaven itself to get revenge on whoever hurt her. Ellie goes all this way, sacrifices everything and everyone, literally gets people she cares about killed in the process, and just walks away from her chance to kill Abby in the final moment. It's a hollow, unsatisfying resolution. I understand that the point is that revenge is bad, but then why does Abby get to walk away from it all? Abby loses her friends, sure, but she loses her place in the WLF because of her choice to save the Scar kids, not because of her choice to get revenge. She loses all of her friends but gains a new one, and gets to walk away. Ellie loses everyone. Joel is dead. Jessie is dead. Tommy would never even look at her if he found out she let Abby walk away AGAIN, and Dina has left her as well, likely back to Jackson with Tommy, which for the reason i just stated, Ellie cant go back to. And to top it all off, she lost her fingers and can no longer play Joel's guitar, losing the last piece of him that she had left, and leaves the guitar to rot in the house that could have been her happily ever after. There are some elements i like about this story, but it's so poorly told and so disjointed that it fails in accomplishing anything. They even try to make us care about Abby with a 10 HOUR flashback during the game's climax, and i hated every minute of it. When they forced me to fight Ellie i rolled my eyes and let Ellie kill me, hoping that it was an option. We hate Abby. We all want her beaten worse than she beat Joel, so to let her walk away at the end with this subtle-as-a-sledgehammer "revenge bad" narrative is just naive and hollow. And if Naughty Dog intends on making a Last of Us 3 where you play as Abby, i simply will not even give the game a chance. Again, i hate Abby. Most people hate Abby. I want her dead. I'm pissed that she murdered one of the best characters in gaming history and gets to just walk away and start a new life when Ellie, and equally great character, loses everything for no reason. TLoU2 didn't need to be made even if it was perfect, but i wanted to give it a chance, and went in completely spoiler free without even watching ANY of the trailers, and i STILL hated this game. The Last of Us is the tale of Joel and Ellie, so to have a 3rd game where you play as Abby and Lev completely betrays the point of the series and i will not play it if that's the case. They tried to make Abby likable and i still despise her. Dont try to do it again.

Anonymous

Joel killed the one thing she loved just as much as Ellie loved Joel, and then Ellie killed everyone of Abby's remaining friends, including the 2nd thing she loved the most (Owen). She followed the same redemption arc as Joel and ended up for me being the more likeable character.

Jonathon H

I’m in the camp of Chris on this one. I lost all interest in the game when I started playing as Abby. Running through, shooting instead of stealth. Oh well first half was was amazing. Ellie is a beast. 💪

Anonymous

The game would have much benefitted by taking out the Lev story arc and having the saraphites as a scary woodland group that you only learn about through environmental story telling. If they done this and built up the father / daughter relationship with Abby I could have bought into it more. It just made no sense to me why Abby would go to the island, why she felt guilt over the two scars in the first place, why she would pick Lev over her own people. It felt hollow. When I was fighting Ellie as Abby I literally let Abby die at least 5 times because that’s how I wanted the game to end because by that point I was completely frustrated. I felt a strong sorrow for Mel given that she was being cheated on, her partner didn’t love her and she was killed anyway. That could have been a more powerful moment but instead they chose to spend more time building up Lev. I think the game ultimately came short by trying to do too much along with a poor sequencing. Great gameplay, stunning world but left with a sour taste.

Jeremiah Lyne

Chris is right - the game runs out of ideas after you take control of Abby. The walking simulator bits are tedious as hell. What the game needed was some good editing. I think if they cut it by half, kept all the amazing scenes closer together and improved the repetitive stealth parts - it had the makings of a classic. Also, the game really struggled for the sheer emotional scenes/depictions of the original - nothing came close to i) death of Joel’s daughter ii) Sam and Henry’s story or iii) Bill and his loneliness. Not to mention the amazing relationship between Joel and Ellie. TLOU2 is a weaker package and a big disappointment. I’d still give it an 8/10 though

Mike D

i) "As a new player not getting to know Joel"- its Part 2, you don't get to complain about that if you didn't play the first game. ii) Joels death is the catalyst for the story this time, and it was set up in the first game. It was always going this way. iii) The relationship is still the drive for this story.

Anonymous

Hey gents, No idea if you'll see this before part two but here goes: Multiple times in part one Chris commented how we, the player, are supposed to hate Abby and view her as the villain, an interpretation that astonished me. When Abby kills Joel it's clearly personal, i.e., there's more to it and this isn't just a random killing, so while saddened I'm already reluctant to hate Abby (not to mention the fact that I know Joel doomed humanity, something even Ellie holds against him). Moreover, I just knew in that moment we would be shown the other side of the coin because that's what Naughty Dog does, particularly in this messy world. The first half culminates with Ellie her facing off against Abby, at which point we go back in time to play as Abby. I immediately knew what was happening and was excited because I was able to experience the full story and confirm my suspicions that yes, Abby isn't some evil monster. She has genuine motivations and loss in her life. In other words, I get it. I understand complaints with aspects of character development or disliking the non-linear story, but I fail to understand the assertion that we're supposed to view Abby as the villain, even early on. Am I wrong? Clark

Anonymous

Kinda wished Colin gave more of his thoughts instead of more an interviewer role

Anonymous

hopefully he give his more of his thoughts about the game in part 2, because it feels like chris just rushed the game and didn't really care about the story from the point where he started to play with abby ( from his own word he claimed that he just rushed to every room and kept pressing triangle just to make the game move ) He missed a lot of good parts because he wasnt into playing abby.

Anonymous

yeah i totally agree with you, the whole point of playing abby was to see the world and the actions of Ellie from the other side of the mirror ( from the sideview of Ellie, the WLF are presented as those ruthless inhuman monsters) but when you finally step into the shoes of one of them, you are struck by how different they are from the vision you had. they are just another bunch of normal who is trying to survive in this new world with their own rules...And you are finally struck by the action of Ellie throught the first half of the games ( The body bags of all the WLF you the player and the scars are killing, the dogs killing, the PS Vita girl...)

Tristen Wilbers

From my perspective, it seems like this is a minority opinion. Actually, this is the first time I've read that someone was looking forward to playing Abby at first. I think that you are supposed to hate Abby. That's the point of making you switch to play as her. It's supposed to be jarring, and the impact of the game comes from the fact that as you are playing you are saying to yourself "I know what they are trying to do, but I am not going to empathize with this character that killed Joel." Once Day 2 and 3 hit, somehow, they have managed to make you invested, and eventually maybe like Abby. That is the point of the story to me. You must just be a more open minded person to be thinking about it from that angle, but imo, and after having listened to Neil and the actors talk about it, you are supposed to not like Abby for a while, understandably. I genuinely don't see how you can play all of the first half of the game and not see Abby as the villain... If someone killed my mom in some similar scenario after an apocalypse, I wouldn't be thinking, oh, but maybe they aren't a bad person. It's far easier to empathize with Ellie, a character we already know and empathize with, than to play devil's advocate for Abby, a character we don't know who just killed Ellie's surrogate father.

Anonymous

You can just tell Chris wasn't invested in the characters from the start would almost prefer Colin do the spoilercast with someone who's invested in the game

Kyle Martin

I totally agree with Chris. Didn't enjoy the game. Second half of the game totally soured it for me. The Critical Drinker review summed it all up for me

Kelly Perkins

What I gathered from the game is that in that world there is no bad guy. Abby, Joel, Ellie are just doing what they believe is right. Saving Ellie, justice for Abbies dad, justice for Joel. Abby and Ellie are essentially the same. Right down to gameplay. Anyway i have a question. Do you think that the inclusion of the precursor egg from the jak games as a collectible is a hint at what naughty dog will be doing next? or just an Easter egg like in uncharted. Would you prefer instead a 3rd lou game based on Abbie, Lev and the fireflies hunting Ellie for that cure?

ThrowAwayName10

Whats wrong with someone voicing their opinion if they didn't enjoy the game. Yes men make for boring discussion. Kinda Funny ever since Colin left has become exactly that.

ThrowAwayName10

I really didn't enjoy the game at all. I absolutely love the first game and it's one of my favorite games of all time. Technically Part 2 is incredible but the story and characters are contrived and poorly written. 6/10

BlindRiot

Is anyone else intrigued by the fact that Sony PR called Vice regarding their negative review of TLOU2? I think it’s pretty weird.

Anonymous

Hey there guys. I have an interpretation of the ending that I don't think anyone else has really talked about. I believe that a large part of the game is dedicated to making the player see Abby the same way they see Joel. Everything from the shivs, to loss of family, to ultimately caring for someone. The stadium with Abby is so similar to Joel in the quarantine zone in my mind. Both people were safe but ultimately unhappy with their group. Even the shot of Lev's converse at Santa Barbara mirroring young Ellie's converse, and the way Abby carries Lev at the end of the game. It's such a masterfully done role switch of characters that I can't be mad that so much of the game is centered around Abby, but what do you guys think? Thanks for all the good work you guys do.

Anonymous

I'm grateful to Chris for voicing his opinion on this game, one which I strongly identified with. I felt that a lot of the questions which were fielded for this conversation did not represent the full discussion about this title.

Anonymous

I was thinking the same thing during my second playthrough of Part II. Even the scene where Abby and Lev are leaving the hospital on the boat seems as though it was framed like the Joel/Ellie truck scene from Part I--in terms of how it begins with shots of dilapidated buildings, Lev looking around curiously, etc. I don't think I've seen anyone lay it all out the way you have here, though. Very well put.

Daniel Meegan

Were you guys surprised at how similar the combat was to the first game? The UI, the supplements, the gun reticles, the stealth kills, the shivs, listen mode... I mean, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it, but I was a little surprised how little was changed.

Anonymous

Predict: will there be a last of us part 3, and how far off if so? This game also seems ripe for a “Lost Legacy” style smaller spinoff (maybe a prequel?).

Anonymous

i agree w chris in that abbey's section dragged on too long and i just lost interest being stuck with her and her unlikable friends for too long. i did give her a chance tho and didn't instantly start sprinting thru everything lol. Colin, I'd argue Lev doesn't have gender disphoria based on evidence from the game. Other than Abbey going out of her way to constantly call her a him, the explanation we got for the shaved head sounded more like an act of rebellion than someone legitimately thinking they are a boy, especially at such a young age.

Anonymous

and by the end it was so refreshing to start bowing the shit out of ppl with ellie again

Anonymous

Ellie killed that girl like Sony killed the PS Vita

Nathan Guergis

Totally agree. I've listened to a bunch of spoilercasts of praise, so it was nice to hear someone put these valid criticisms into words.

Anonymous

I think Chris is DEAD on with the game running out of game. I agree with Collin that the ending picked the steam back up again, I think the Santa Barbara prison was a really well done level after what I thought had been a lot of mediocre combat arenas and a too scripted experience playing as Abby for all those hours before. Seriously I have yet to hear a defense for the dreadful Abby hospital level. I think long games needs to do one of two things, either make the experience kind of monotonously great the entire time, with smaller stories scattered through to make a 2 hour playsession feel rewarding, see Witcher 3, Breath of the Wild and Persona 5. Or it needs to be continously getting better and more interesting as you are playing, where if you are half way through the game and then suddenly get dropped into the final boss you'd be destroyed. See any Souls game, God of War(2018), Cuphead, or MGS 2 and 3. By the time you start playing as Abby you have mastered the game mechanics, and there is no more "game" for the rest of the experience. You're just pludging through to get back to Ellie and see how it all ends. I also think there is some unfortunately poor acting here, mainly by Abby's supporting cast. Laura Bailey is great of course, but the kid who plays Lev is remarkably bland in his portrayal, and considering he is to Abby what Ellie is to Joel it is very unfortunate they have barely any chemistry. And that is on acting. I know it's a nice thing for them to find an actual trans actor to play that part. But there just is a big issue there since it's incredibly limiting for casting. So you gotta just bite the bullet and hope the writing is strong enough to withstand someone unexperienced and mediocre at their job doing that part. And it just wasn't. I don't feel the same way about Lev as I did about Ellie in the first game, or Elizabeth in Bioshock Infinite, or Atreus in God of War. And I think I was supposed to. But the Ellie section is really strong and the ending is excellent. I just wish they made Abby's story a DLC so I could have turned it off when I realised it wasn't very good instead of feeling like I was forced playing this story even though the gameplay was a bit dull to me then and the story wasn't very interesting to me.

Calvin

Wow I thought the hospital section was awesome. Turned into a full on horror game

Anonymous

So my biggest problem with the game is the lack of details revealed or needed to really sell actions. And listening to Colin say Druckmann said outside of the game for TLOU1 the doctors would have definitely been successful but that isn’t really made clear and left to people to be more weary about the actual results if he were to let her die for it. Same with the decisions made by Joel in the second game that are very not of character because it’s not written well enough to sell me he just lets his guard down when there’s nothing that would suggest this of tommy of Joel’s character to do this just to move plot forward. Again the game isn’t bad it’s just got some bad lack of writing at times to justify the actions more than the actions that take place for the main plot.

Sean Johnson

To the point about dodging. I think it would be neat if when you spam the dodge button too much, you actually trip or fall back, making yourself vulnerable for a second.

Anonymous

Will you be soliciting more question for Part 2 of the spoiler cast?

Brett Medlock

Definitely do part 2! Please ^-^

Anthony J Sanchez

Is it just me or is Tommy seemingly immortal? There were to instances where I thought he was for sure dead.

Anonymous

I think the lack of info is on purpose. What are the doctors supposed to say there is 100 percent chance it will work. That logic doesn’t work in this world. It’s more interesting if it’s a chance that it works. That’s how it’s presented. I think Neil knows these things, he doesn’t spell it out on purpose. It makes it more thought provoking. We don’t know what Ellie is going to do as she leaves the home. It’s up to our interpretation and Neil has stated that’s on purpose. Some people hate that, I like it. Because it gets us talking about our interpretation. Some people want to be spoon fed.

Anonymous

Not sure if anyone has brought this up, but I'm not even sure that Lev is trans in the typical sexual sense as we don't know enough to assume there was some type of gender dysphoria. The character is pretty young to be concerned with such concepts and only seemed to want to be perceived as male because she/he wanted to be a warrior and not merely a wife to some elder. I saw the character as more of a Mulan type than what we think of as your average trans person. Am I wrong here?

The Kaptain

i thought this was some woke BS tbh... not needed and felt ND were shoehorning it in given the current zeitgeist we live in. I think you are right btw in your assertion

The Kaptain

An issue I found the game FAR too easy... I played on normal and I didnt feel I needed to be frugal with ammo as it was so plentiful. In the first game you really had to eek out resources and it added alot to the stakes. Also the MANUAL save didnt even work, it just put you back to an autosave even when you loaded the MANUAL save...

Chris Deadman

Personally I really enjoyed the game, though it’s far from the wholly satisfying experience that the original was. I think it’s bold and an honourable experiment in game design and narrative story telling for the medium. It was always going to be divisive but I respect ND for telling their story. However, I believe my overall feeling for this game will be decided by whether or not we get a part 3. I realise you should judge a piece of work on its own merit, but to my mind this was not a satisfying conclusion to the story of the The Last of Us - You can certainly argue we already got that with TLOU1 - this game feels more like the “dark middle chapter” of a trilogy. I’d be interested to know if Colin and Chris want another game. And if they think the story can ever be wrapped up in a way that was as satisfying as the TLOU1.

Alec Shaner

I'll just add my opinion since I finished the game last night! I literally detested playing as Abby and wanted her to fall off every building. Seeing her perspective didn't help; obviously we know in the world of the TLOU everyone left has a dark side and Joel/Ellie aren't really the "good people". But in this world they are my people. The game should have ended shortly after the first confrontation between Abby and Ellie in the theater...and like others said, make Abby's story DLC. Once Abby's story started the game became a chore to finish. Just my perspective :) I may opt out if they make a 3rd game.

Anonymous

Hey Colin/Chris first time comment! I was wondering your thoughts on how hate is used in this game? For me I thought the ending where we see Ellie tell Joel she wanted to try and forgive him brought a whole new perspective to the story. It wasn’t so much that Ellie hated Abby but that Ellie hated herself for not forgiving Joel fully and then placed that hate on Abby. The ending where she lets Abby go to me was her trying to forgive Abby so that she can eventually forgive Joel and herself. Plus Ellie hating herself or at the least feeling guilty is apparent at the end of the first game where she reveals Riley died and she survived. It’s also in Part 2 during the flashback where they find the teens from Jackson. Thanks keep up the awesome content!

NeO JD

Outside of what Chris mentioned about Abby’s dad and collecting quarters, I feel like his opinion on Abby’s side was completely different than mine. At 1st, I wasn’t happy about the change either but even somewhere in Day 1 for her, I was coming around, and by the end I didn’t want to see any harm to both Ellie or Abby. Also, Chris talking about wanting to go back to Days Gone after is silly to me. Sure, Days Gone is fun but both the story and gameplay quality don’t stack up against TLoU.

The Kaptain

Question regarding the Last of Us 2 I felt the game (on normal was FAR too easy) ammo and supplies were in such abundance I didnt feel like I needed to be frugal and conserve like I did in the first game. Sure I could of played the game on HARD but I didnt do that in the original and I found that challenging. You really had to conserve shotgun rounds and bullets in LOU1 and even avoid enemies entirely as you simply didnt have any means to kill them. I Dont want to bandwagon "devs are making games too easy these days" but do you not feel that you could just blaze through all sections of the game and not HAVE to use stealth and there were stakes to wasting ammo/supplies? It was almost comical the amount of the stuff I couldnt carry as I had max EVERYTHING and crafted EVERYTHING... I Felt this somewhat took away the stakes and the tension of the game which is SURVIVAL!! Im not sure you touched on this is in your PT1 discussion. Thankyou and appreciate your Podcasts

Anonymous

Finally listened and found it pretty funny and interesting that my reaction to the game was almost entirely counter to Chris's. I was not into the revenge plot the game opened with. It seemed really shallow and degenerative after the end of the original game and how everyone had settled in Jackson. Especially since you play as Abby for nearly an hour before she runs into Joel, and you can see that she's hunting him for some really personal grievances. There's even the clue that they're former fireflies (if I remember correctly) so I my reaction to Joel's death was that it was tragic, but seeking vengeance for him would only spiral everything down. The game only got interesting for me as Ellie started realizing how off the deep end she had gotten on Day 2 and Day 3. When it switched to Abby, I was legitimately interested in seeing how her whole side of the story would play out. And I don't like being pulled back and forth between characters. So I think I liked doing all 3 days per character at once. So again, interesting that it can invoke such different reactions. The game was too long though.

Anonymous

Initially, I, like Chris, hated having to control Abby, but she eventually grew on me. I’m still #TeamEllie, but I think Abby and her story brought a lot to the game. I was disappointed that Abby was essentially a skin swap. I did appreciate the fact that Abby and Ellie had different upgrade trees and weapons, but that wasn’t enough. The characters should have handled differently, and had different character traits. Abby should have more plodding while Ellie was nimble. Abby should have been more powerful, but slower than Ellie. And, Ellie should have been quicker, but had lower maximum health than Abby, etc. Abby looked like she was a good 20-30 pounds heavier than Ellie, so having Abby be as agile and quick as Ellie didn’t make much sense. What do you guys think? Am I asking for too much? Side note: I think this game is a masterpiece and felt like a natural maturation after the first game. I don’t think one is “better” than the other because you can’t have one without the other. They are two parts to the same story.

Anonymous

To the question of why it's being review bombed: I would say that a lot of it has to do with the absurdly high scores it got from critics. I agree with both of you that it's certainly no worse than a 5 but with the overwhelming majority of critics landing in the 9-10 range there's probably a decent number of people that just want to counteract what they feel is un-due positivity. For this game to be as controversial among fans as it is there's no way it should be a 94 on metacritic. It certainly doesn't deserve the 5.3 user score either but that's how people are voicing their displeasure in the critical reception. Based on the published review scores I was expecting some incredible payoff in the end to make the Abby slog feel worth it but it didn't happen (for me anyway). I wouldn't disagree with someone who felt strongly about a 9.5-10 but for it to be the overwhelming majority of critics is just disingenuous. Something in the mid-high 80's on metacritic feels about right. The game was impressively polished but the story had a multitude of issues. I have to think there was some kind of social justice bonus in a lot of those scores. Those issues being present have nothing to do with why I didn't love the game but I have a pretty strong feeling that's why it was rated so highly from the cartoonish-left games media.

Anonymous

Why do you think the story in the first one was better?

Anonymous

I don’t think the game was a revenge story. You wouldn’t have seen Abby’s side if it was a revenge game. I think the game was a story about closure, finality, and the price we pay for our obsessions. The plot can be summed up with one quote “An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.”

Anonymous

Is it me or did Ellie look like her younger self when her and Dina lived in the house?

Anonymous

I don't doubt that Druckman said that but it's an absolutely absurd premise. Take today's events for example. If there was one person confirmed to be completely immune to COVID and one doctor to form a vaccine for humanity - how likely does a cure for humanity seem? I understand that Druckman wants to make Joel's decision as impactful as possible but to state "oh yes, he definitely would've made a vaccine" is patently absurd. Ridiculous assumptions or justifications like that are woven throughout this game which is why it's nowhere near the original (or any of the PS3 ND gamesIMO).

Anonymous

Hey C and C, I know Colin at one point talked about using the included HDMI cable ran through the wall at the new place, congrats by the way. Did you finish the game in 1080 or play any in higher resolution? I recently got a 4k TV with HDR and finally upgraded to a PS4 pro... WOW is this game beautiful. I was wondering if you were able to see it in all its glory the way it was intended. I especially liked the stream through the snow area and as Abby in the forest at night with the rain and fire with all the reflections. I personally enjoyed playing as Abby more and loved exploring the outbreak scene. I found myself truly immersed and wanting more of the day that happens. Interested to hear your thoughts on story possibilties, perhaps playing as Ellie's mother in a future game??? I did also find the game to be a little long even enjoying most of what it had to offer. Take care and thanks for great content as always

Angel Delagracia

This comment is awesome! as a new member, I am glad to see a comment that finally resonates with my sentiments if the game. Cheers🥂

Anonymous

Hey C-men, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on how Naughty Dog approached player agency in the game. The end of the Last of Us famously involved players not being able to make a choice with regards to Joel's actions, and this has carried over in the second game and is something of a hallmark of the series now. Do you think there are key moments where player choice would have been beneficial? One moment that comes to mind is Ellie's choice to go to Santa Barbara - I think it would have been groundbreaking if you could opt not to go and the game finished there for you, but if you went, you got more gameplay but a grim ending. I absolutely loved the game, but would love to hear your thoughts on this. Thanks for all the great content :)

Anonymous

Colin your spoilercast was great don’t let the children sway your mind on this matter. At the end of the day it is based on your opinions and if Chris didn’t like the game then let him have his voice! Even if it’s negative. Keep on keeping on!

Anonymous

Honestly I was fine with how the first game ended. Although, I’m so glad they made a sequel, it felt good to play again. Besides abby’s section being super long, I loved the game!!! And the scene with Ellie and Nora, sooooo disturbing. Overall, a 9/10 for me!

Anthony A.

C & C, I hope this can make it in for part 2 of the spoilercast as I just finished the game a few hours ago. This is a great game, Naughty Dog's penchant for cinematic storytelling shines through from beginning to end. The combat is as brutal and visceral as any I have ever seen since the original. However, it is not as great as the TLOU1. With the exception of a few sequels, I don't think many sequels can deliver the same emotional story beats and character introductions as originals. Plus, the ambiguous ending to the original was perfect in my mind. Being a father, I agreed with and Joel's decision and actions100%. If I had to give this game a score, It would be a 9 out of 10 because of said story. I think it went on a little too long. I would've been fine with it ending with the confrontation between Ellie and Abby in Seattle segueing into Ellie and Dina's home on the farm and skipping the Santa Barbara section all together. I felt the Santa Barbara section was just an excuse to have you play as Ellie again before the credits roll. If Naughty Dog returns for the world of The Last of Us for another sequel, in my honest opinion, I think the sequel should leave Ellie's story behind and focus Abby and Lev trying to find the Fireflies. I don't love Abby as I do Ellie, but I am invested enough in her to follow her story to a logical conclusion. Plus, I enjoy the chemistry and banter between her and Lev which harkens back to Joel and Ellie's original journey. Stay safe and sound, Anthony A.

Anonymous

And I just realized that the seraphites are called scars because of the scars on their face...........: #oblivious

Anonymous

Hey boys. In case Colin goes back through this before Part 2, I was wondering if y’all think Naughty Dog might do some story DLC like TLoU1. I think it could be fun to play as Tommy up until he runs into Abby on Day 3 or maybe Lev before he finds Abby or maybe something relating to the Scars/WLF feud. Anyhow, you think it’s possible or will the multiplayer mode be it for TLoU2?

Jordan Dunn

how does ellie's walkman still work after a swim in the river? surely that backpack is not waterproof.

Josh Gamez

Hey guys, This isn't a question about the Last of Us Part 2 specifically and it's more About post-apocalyptic media in general but... Has no other universe ever heard the word zombie before?

Dan P

Great podcast CnC! While I think the first game had a better narrative I really enjoyed the game play of Part 2. In regards to just pressing triangle and crawling around all the time. I think the combat is as fun as you want to make it. If I were to crawl around at a snails pace and choke everyone, it would be effective but pretty boring. I played the Ellie's first part on Hard but found it still to be a little too forgiving. I enjoyed the combat much more from that point on putting it on Grounded and minus the HUD. It still isn't a 'hard' game but it did make me approach combat in a more measured way, using all the tools I had with the limited ammo. I really recommend everyone try play this is on as hard of a difficulty as you can manage. Also, as someone who walked through every environment and looked at everything - The detail is off the charts. The amount of 'story' buried in mundane arrangement of objects is very cool. Every in-game piece of art work/painting on the wall is unique - I checked.

Anthony A.

Hello C & C, When the credits rolled on the original TLoU, I was one of the people who did not want a sequel. As I thought the first game was a masterpiece. As a father, I agreed with Joel's heinous decisions based on his love for Ellie who, in a way, had become his daughter. However, the more I marinate on the ending to TLoU2, I want more. However, the "more" I want is of Abby and Lev as I feel TLoU2's ending is a nice way to put a bow on the story of Joel and Ellie. If Naughty Dog creates a third and final chapter, I would welcome a story that focuses on Abby and Lev as they continue on their journey to find a new lot of Fireflies. One of the strongest parts of Abby's story was her interaction with and somewhat "redemption" through Lev, which harkens back to Joel and Ellie's original journey across the U.S. Yes, I did not originally like the switch to playing as Abby, but Naughty Dog with great craftsmanship, has made me care about someone I originally hated, which I believe their intention was. Stay safe and sound, Anthony A.

Anonymous

Zero mention of horribly overrated Laura Bailey playing a black character in her last game and a possible/probable trans character in this game. Then plays victim, everyone involved in this game is despicable and of course the ppl who get royalties, voice actors, and do the least work ruin the artists and coders work. F naughty dog and fake progressive except for his friends getting jobs as black characters lame ass druckman

Kameron Clem

I’m a little late to comment. I hope this can still be seen. The best part of the game is the Santa Barbara section so I’m not sure why people would have liked for this to not be in the game. Ellie and Dina living happy on the farm would have been nice for sure, but that’s not how this world works. People don’t just get to grow old and die peacefully. And I mean did some of you not play the game? Ellie says to Dina that she doesn’t sleep and can barely function because she got no closure from Joel’s death. She wrongfully assumes that revenge is what will give her that closure but ultimately it’s acceptance that does. Acceptance of Joel’s decision at the end of the first one. Joel was able to see that Ellie’s life had more meaning than just her Immunity. And when Ellie finally realizes that after she recalls Joel saying he would do it all again, she accepts his decision and can start to forgive him. But accepting it means that she has to accept all the baggage that comes with it. Including Abby. So while, I don’t think she forgives Abby, she realizes that killing her robs her life of the meaning Joel saw in it. After all, a parent wants their child to be better than them.

Arquimedes Quintero II

Hello C&C, I'd like to hear more from Colin. Be mindful not to just pose a question or situation for Chris to answer. It feels like an interrogation after a while. On another topic, I feel that Chris is having a problem with the first experience of the game. That tends to happen with films that don't conform to the typical story structure. The way this game I structured, it makes you feel like you played the whole thing when you get to the end of Ellie's part, and that's why he felt like rushing the second part. I bet he'd have a better experience on a second playthrough. That happens all the time with films. Some films are much much better on second viewings. I believe The Last of Us part II is a masterpiece. Maybe not quite as effective as the first game, but one that has made me think and meditate on its message much more than even Part I or any other game in a long time.

Anonymous

Imo, Colin and Chris have never had much chemistry. At all. Colin is why im here, and no hate to Chris, but I don't think he carries his side of the podcasts very well, and why I'm in the "add a 3rd Podcaster " camp. I just wish Colin had a partner that was as passionate about PlayStation as him. I dont think Chris is that guy.

Anonymous

Hello C&C new patron here from Scotland. I wanted to comment about something that annoys me about revenge stories in general which is how stories show that revenge is wrong and harmful to yourself. Usually the story concludes with the attempt at revenge not working or being successful but with so many consequences that it wasn't worth it. Very rarely do revenge stories explore successful revenge without over arching consequences. I know that revenge can blow up in your face but at the same time people get away with revenge, murder and heinous crimes every day because we live in a cruel world and the world of the last of us is far more cruel and unforgiving. I always find it annoying when this side of the coin is ignored in these tales. I always feel as if the revenge attempt fails or blows up in the characters face because the writers set it up that way and don't consider the possibility of it being successful. If you want to show that revenge is wrong you don't have to make the best case against revenge and the worst case for it. I believe you can show that revenge is wrong by showing the best argument for and against it. I get that it will be harder and require more work to do it this way but it could make for a richer story. Maybe this is just a me thing, I don't see many people complaining about this but I thought I'd put it out there to see if there is any agreement. Thanks for doing the spoiler cast enjoyed it more than others I have watched. Keep up the good work!

Kevin Cooper

The song "Torn" was actually a cover of the original by Los Angeles' EDNASWAP. So you might say that it wasn't Torn, but rather... Ripped-off. *ba-dum-tsssss*

Kevin Cooper

I'm also glad to hear that Colin's save file was 31 hours. My final save file was 34 hours, and I think it's crazy that anyone would blow through a twice-in-a-lifetime game like this so quickly. I'm hearing between 22 & 25 hours from most people, and I can't imagine how much side-stuff they missed. All of my IRL friends completely missed Ellie's "Take On Me" cover.

Anonymous

Hey fellas! I have a great tip for the Last of Us 2 that is a life saver that the game somehow does not teach you. Did you guys know that you can drop down on enemies and kill them from above Uncharted style? This would’ve made my life so much easier. Why on Earth does the game not tell you this?

Anonymous

The fact that Druckman says the fireflies would definitely make a cure with Ellie would make a cure, tells me he doesn't even understand his own world or game. We are told in the game that they have tried and failed before. Why would this try be 100% that makes no sense and I always liked that it was left up to your interpretation whether or not you think it would have worked.

Anonymous

I take issue with people who say Joel "doomed the human race". Joel destroyed humanity's best, easiest way to fight the infection, but it's not the ONLY hope they have. Settlements like Jackson are going out on missions to destroy hives and wipe out infected, as well as bringing back civilization. Yes, it's going to be a much harder fight without a vaccine, but it's not impossible. Plus you gotta take into account that if a vaccine was made, people will try to steal it, horde it, possibly even refuse to give it to anyone outside their group. What happens if the Fireflies run out of the supplies they need to make it or have to ration it out to only people they consider worth saving? It could turn into modern-day death panels like those found in Canada where elderly people are denied healthcare because they government decides they wont live that much longer anyway, so why waste the money and resources on them? So yeah, Joel ruined the world's BEST chance at recovery, but not the ONLY chance. We dont know that without a cure that humanity will go extinct cuz of cordyceps

Nate McKinney

It's implied that they've never had someone that was immune before. That's what it boils down to. Think you're over-thinking it.

Jacob

Late to the party, just finished the game. I avoided all spoilers including Joel is dead and you play 1/2 the game as Abby. I wanted to like it. I liked the gameplay but hated the narrative. Nothing came off "bold" to me. The story came off as contrived, pretentious, and a mess. "A game about right and wrong written by people who think they're always right" is an opinion I completely agree with. I figured Joel would get killed off and he did. I'd have rather they try to tell a story without the easy path of "kill off Joel." It wasn't really a surprise that you play as Abby. They show their hand when you play as Abby at the very beginning so I wasn't surprised when they switched and tried to make me care about Abby and the others. I didn't. Revenge is bad. That's the narrative? For me, it was The Last Jedi in game form, subverting all expectations. At any cost. I'm glad there are those who did enjoy it. Wish I was with you.

Lou & Rei Loper

Alright, coming back to this one finally now that I've sat down to finish the game this weekend. Back to back 3.30am long sessions Saturday and Sunday got it done when I thought I was 'nearly done' only to find out that I was only halfway haha. 10/10 game and even though I didn't want a sequel...it's even better than the first one in my opinion. Can't wait to FINALLY stop skipping huge chunks of shows and getting rid of other podcasts episodes to avoid any potential spoilers. (I saw the original reveal trailer in 2016 and literally nothing else about the game until I got it and finished it)

Lou & Rei Loper

Just got to what I've been (quietly) screaming in my office as the 'point' of this game and why I believe it's a masterpiece ESPECIALLY having to play as Abby for more than a quick throw-away 15 minute section of a game.....the game is all ABOUT seeing the whole picture. Ellie/Joel are the good guy only because you have zero context to the other side of fence. It's the same with any other conflict (war, politics, etc) no one ever believes they are the bad guy, no war in history was fought by a bad guy. Everyone is the good guy in their own eyes. I hated playing as Abby after she killed Joel...but that's purely because I don't know her side to the story. Joel was never the good guy (despite the fact I'd make the same decision as him most likely) but people put him on a pedestal like a Tony Soprano character who was also never the goodbye guy....but damn if we don't look past that and love him anyway. As I played as Abby for the first bit I hated it and wanted it to end, but the first time you get to something real and see how beautiful the world was before you (Ellie) started wrecking shop and killing everyone she knew (she killed one person, you kill EVERYONE), you start to have a different viewpoint and realize how blinded you were by rage and ignorance. The fact that she didn't kill you not once, not twice, but THRICE really says something. And she (Abby) still isn't the 'good guy' in the game. There are no good guys, there are no bad guys, just guys who don't talk to each other. Masterfully done job imo, masterful.

Lou & Rei Loper

Last comment on this old post (probably lol)...I began to really wonder after going hours without seeing a single infected in the game due to them clearing our areas for themselves to live, but it got me thinking. The infected don't even need to do anything because the non-infected are killing everyone for them anyway so there won't be anything left in the end anyhow. No one is even trying to learn anymore about how to cure the infection, they're just killing each other (from what we've seen) cuz.....reasons. Btw I finished in 36 hours and 12 minutes without rushing through the game. I'm not a trophy hunter though (forgot they existed, that's how much I don't pay attention to that haha). I enjoyed the ability to stealth as much as possible and only kill who I had to in order to proceed. (I'm former military so I'm not opposed to guns/killing/etc) I enjoyed taking the time to enjoy the small moments and look at the world they gave us (gorgeous), I didn't tape down the run button lol.

Anonymous

very very late to the party as I have just completed the game. Firstly I would like to say this game graphically is beautiful. Where I fall on this game is firstly I never believed we needed a sequel and this game does not make me feel any different on this point. Secondly regardless of the Ellie/Abby story I do think this has value but my major issue is the fact Joel dies so early in the game. I feel it is way too soon! look if the writers are hell bent on Joel dieing thats fair enough but what I will say as such a big fan of the first game I feel as though Joel and Ellie as characters deserved better and the sequel let them and me as a fan down

Anonymous

Is there no video for this discussion only audio?

MJ SKA BOI

I don't believe they were filming the episodes at the time.

Deon

Clearly Chris doesn’t like this game which is disappointing because I absolutely loved it and it’s called last of us 2 Chris said they didn’t give you enough time to see Joel’s character you can play last of us 1 to see his character develop.

Taylor kazemba

I think Abby was ment to be transgender and they cut it out of the game. Her hands are huge.