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Fireside Chats, Episode 104: Questioning Faith (Patreon)

Published:
2019-08-28 16:00:03
Imported:
2022-01

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A common theme throughout Fireside Chats has been religion. Talking about it, thinking about it, debating it. Today's guest --  Paeter Fransden -- is a knowledgeable, evangelical, friendly, and determined believer in Christ, and out of all of the Christian-themed episodes we've done so far, I (Colin) must readily admit: This one personally made me think about and question my own beliefs the most. Perhaps you'll have a similar experience. Perhaps not. But either way, put on your thinking caps and approach our chat with an open mind. After all, there might be more to this universe than any of us think, and God just might be watching.

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Comments

Lou & Rei Loper

YESSSSSSSSSSS, this is the stuff I will mourn the most once the light of the Fireside Chats is extinguished. Can't wait to digest this one 😁👍

Liam Fagan

Colin we will save you haha !!!!!

Russell Garrett

I love the religious Fireside Chats! I’m not an atheist per-se. Agnostic is likely the closest thing. I believe our current scientific explanation for the universe, but I refuse to believe that before everything existed, nothing existed, if that makes sense? I’m always up for having my mind opened and my views challenged though. That’s what’s great about these episodes in particular. I totally understand and support your decision for sunsetting Fireside Chats, but I’m going to be sad when I see the notification for the final episode. Will you miss doing it do you think?

Ben Williams

SO pumped for this.

Alex Castellanos

Whoa! As a Christian, and as someone who would love to see you change your mind about Jesus and your need for Him, you couldn't have gotten me MORE HYPED for this conversation! Keep that mind open to hear from God, and try reading the Bible again and seeing what stands out to you.

Ryan Harvey

Oh man, when I was a kid eternity was the scariest thing I'd ever experienced. Shear terror when my mind would loop, well what happens after that? Over and over. It's really hard to articulate. But I was terrified of the eternal part of what I heard about heaven.

Raymond keys

Colin, I know since you enjoy history and love to read, I recommend you read a book called, “More than a Carpenter,” by Josh McDowel. He was an atheist set out to prove that the Bible was false and inaccurate, but discovered the opposite, and became a Christian.

Paeter Frandsen

Thanks so much for having me on, Colin! And if anyone is curious, I've posted the first of a two-part series video-chronicling my prep for this, meeting Colin and how I thought it went. The first part is right here: https://youtu.be/QRp-shLFIVw -Paeter

Anonymous

Can’t wait to listen! This will absolutely be a “driving home from vacation” podcast this afternoon!

Paeter Frandsen

I want to drop in a little apology here if anyone took offense to the voice I used when making fun of my vocal performance degree. I almost immediately regretted it, as it could be assumed that I'm making fun of those who have a lisp. That was certainly not my intention, it was just the "cartoonish" voice that came to mind. So please know I'm sorry about my recklessness in that. Thanks. -Paeter

Liam Fagan

This podcast was great, thanks guys. Genre absolutely matters. In my church, we do not pick and choose what is real and what is not, the key is the genre, Paeter you hit the nail on the head there. Loads of people always say, I believe jesus existed, but I dont believe he performed miracles. That statement contradicts itself. The Roman historians of the time wrote about what he did! The bible is the best piece of evidence. There are over 10,000 original manuscripts of the bible, which were written around 30 years after jesus's death. The Bible, is a Primary source for historical accuracy of the time. The 12 disciples, kept their word of jesus for 40 years, until they were killed for their beliefs. There is no way, 12 people, could have held a lie, for that long, and kept the lie, while they were being murdered. I could talk all day, sorry if my numbers are slightly of, it may be 24,000 original copies. Anecdotal stories are pointless to tell if you dont trust the person telling the., but wowwwww. Coincidences happen, but they happen all the damn time when we pray. I was the biggest, most arrogant atheist until I was 23, now 26.

Keith W

I’d just like to say that anyone who tells you you’re going to hell is guilty of the sin of hubris. No man can speak with the voice of God. Doctrine is clear, salvation is given by God, and through God all things are possible. Nobody knows what his requirements are with certainty. Salvation is not something a church can give you in a quid pro quo exchange for your faith or works. It’s a mysterious thing that we can’t know. Fantastic episode overall. Thanks guys for the great talk.

Will Hahn

Can’t wait for this conversation! I love the episodes on religion!

Jason Stafford

Paeter, I don't know if you'll see this, but thanks for coming on the show. I'm 43 and I've been a lot like you as far as inquisitiveness goes. If I might give you a couple of suggestions just for fun, check out 119 Ministries on youtube (whose motto is "continue to test everything ") and Unlearn the Lies by Lex B. Meyers (also on youtube) who has some interesting answers on what happens after we die. Thanks again for being super cool!

Forrest Hunter

Cant wait to dive into this. I love your episodes on this topic. You also just got a nice shout out by Blake Harris on The Rubin Report.

Paeter Frandsen
>>26240532

Thanks for the encouragement and recommendations! I'll open tabs to check them out now! Take care. -Paeter

Jason Stafford

Heaven and Hell have been terribly mixed with folklore and taught forever. My understanding of the Scripture is that the whole point since the fall is to put the world back the way it was supposed to be in the beginning. Heaven isn't a place you go, it's more accurately the New Jerusalem comes to Earth where those who live on the Earth and whose name is on the list go for worship and the feasts. Eternal life is granted to those who hold to Messiah and follow the commandments. Life is life, much like it is now but without the ugliness. Hell is a place of eternal fire. It was created for the devil and his angels, not man. While they will burn forever, man sent there will not. He will be consumed and that's the end. Just like the parables explain of the wheat being separated from the chaff and the chaff burned. Sorry if that sounds crazy, that's just what I've learned from my studies of what the scriptures actually say and there's no judgment there at all, as I'm nowhere near prideful enough to say anything for sure. I'm definitely not God and I don't even know if I'll make it though I try. I find those descriptions comforting for some reason though. I'm way cooler with being destroyed than being tortured. :P

Jason Stafford

Paeter, dude, I had chills up my spine. When you were talking about the nature of God, I'm sitting here screaming inside "set-apart" then you said it and I did a little dance inside. Feels nice to not feel like a weirdo sometimes. :)

LastStandMedia

We don't have an "atheist" or "agnostic" episode coming up, no. No one ever offered to come on and discuss it! C'est la vie.

LastStandMedia
>>26239240

The Roman historians aren't necessarily considered 100% accurate sources (though I think we talk in this episode about how Josephus, et al, are the reason I think Jesus did exist). Remember, though, that none of these historians saw Jesus. They're writing about what they've heard, what others have heard, etc. This is what's so frustrating about ancient history and anthropology. We'll really never know.

LastStandMedia
>>26241082

Thank you! Yeah, Blake texted me this morning with a link. Still need to listen to the whole thing.

desperateLuck

This was enjoyable and Paeter was definitely well spoken, but like all of the other religion guests, I feel the arguments keep starting in the wrong place. All of the arguments start with a very western societal mindset and the assumption that a christian type god exists (or is the only deity option) and the bible is mostly accurate, and then try to align it with what we know about the modern world. In order to truly be compelling, these discussions should start at a much more agnostic state. What about the people that existed before the Abrahamic religions? What about the numerous competing beliefs and religions outside of the extremely small region where Christianity originally grew and flourished? What about discussing the evolutionary reasons why humans might have developed religion without divine influence? I feel that for all of these individuals that come on and obviously devote a lot of time to studying this stuff, they simply don't address the real interesting problems with religion.

desperateLuck
>>26243146

I'll say what I've said with your previous religious guests, but every time I listen to one of these, it becomes more and more obvious that Christianity and the bible simply lack any divine elements to them. The religion seems to be so region specific, borrows from older cultures, and is based on a book riddled with inconsistencies. The heavy reliance on revised ideas and interpretation rather than a direct logical source is also bizarre,

Jason Stafford

LOL, if we've learned anything throughout the run of Fireside Chats, it's that religious people like to talk. :P

Brian Comstock

As a Christian myself Colin I hope you keep your mind open to God and not shut out the idea that he could exist. If there is the SLIGHTEST chance he does exist. You owe it to yourself to do everything you possibly can to get to know him and have a relationship with him. I’ve had some of the very same doubts you have and I kept my mind open and God has revealed himself to me in undeniable ways. I think your experiences as a child and a young man in the Catholic Church has given you all the reason to reject God. But those people are human and they’re not perfect and I’m sorry that happened to you. And you said in this “Why doesn’t God reveal himself” well I have an answer for you. HE DID! and we spit in his face, beat him, and hung him to a cross.

Brian Comstock

To sum up what I’m saying is we all care about you deeply. You’re apart of my daily life as I listen to all your content. So from my perspective it hurts my heart that you wanna believe but you just can’t. So I just pray that you continue to have an open mind about it and pray for him to reveal himself to you in an undeniable way as he did to me. And he will! Thanks for an awesome episode Colin. You’re the best!

Anonymous

The best episode out of the 104. Brought me to tears because I have struggled with my own salvation and trust in Christ my entire young adult to adult life. William Lane Craig, Ravi Zacharias, and Alvin Plantinga are incredible. Super pumped to see you check them out and see where the evidence leads Colin. There is also a book by A.W. Tozer called "The Knowledge of The Holy" that breaks down the attributes of God and addresses many of the questions discussed here. Its a quick listen or read as well. Thanks for the incredible episode Colin. You have been on my heart for some time.

Paeter Frandsen
>>26244121

Personally, I would have preferred to have interviewed Colin! Guess I'll put that on my bucket list.

Anonymous

This episode meant a lot to me, I was raised Christian but am now a firm atheist. I love these conversations because they show just how much intelligent thought Christians actually exercise in their faith. I’ve never been the sort of atheist who looks down at people of faith. Like Colin, I abhor atheists who act so self righteously. An atheist should be a person who holds their beliefs and puts no expectations on the beliefs of others. Anything further and I think it drifts into the realm of anti-theism. This was a good one, thanks Colin and Paeter

Paeter Frandsen

Thank YOU, Jeffrey! Really appreciate your heart and attitude. That's what makes these kinds of interactions from different perspectives possible and productive. Take care.

Anonymous

I'm about halfway through right now and this is already one of the best episodes of Fireside Chats yet, I'm glad it's going out with a bang with these last few episodes. Paeter, I also searched for your channel and was delighted to see that you made a video about preparing for the show and meeting Colin and all of the anxiety and emotions that came with that. Very curious to watch that as well, since I went through a lot of the same stuff when I did Ep. 86 back in March and unfortunately didn't have anyone to turn to or talk to about any of that stuff. Like Colin, I lost faith around 8th grade and always having someone like God to turn to for guidance is what I miss the most.

Anonymous

Paeter first off I know you were worried about the “thousands” but you did a great job! Colin and Paeter this was really great. I’ve been agnostic for years now but over the past few months I’ve been exploring Christianity so this podcast couldn’t have been more timely for me. Colin thank you so much for showing so much respect and asking such thoughtful questions. Paeter thank you for really opening my mind, leaving me with me answers, and great sources for my own research. This was a great one, cheers.

Brent

I appreciate the insight he gives but at the end of the day I still believe most people who are this committed to Christianity or a religion are either 1) fooling themselves or 2) Suffer from some type of mental illness which is not clearly understood yet.

Dan Parsons
>>26245034

How do you know He did? Other people writing down something thousands of years ago does not mean it happened.

Brent

Excuse the frankness of my comment. Agree to disagree.

Dan Parsons
>>26255027

Atheism is not a belief system any more than not playing football is a sport.

Dan Parsons

As always with the religion based FSCs, this was a very interesting - Paeter comes across, in the most part, well. Where he comes across badly, and IMO actually undermines everything else he said, is simply not being able to answer any of the poignant "difficult" questions Colin asked. Constantly saying “just read this” just proved he can’t answer them himself. The idea that God/Jesus doesnt show himself because if he did he would get more blame for not intervening in atrocities, is quite frankly ridiculous. People don’t turn to Atheism, they turn away Religion – this is not the same thing. A lack of belief is not a belief.

Tyler

I think people need to remove the concept that Christians don’t ever have doubt. As a Christian myself, I went through my teen years rebelling and doing everything against the Christian faith. But I always, ALWAYS felt this void and a sense of conviction. I eventually came back around and better myself but doubt is something that all Christians continue to struggle with. It can be triggered by a bad day, exhaustion, anything...but I think people just need to know that believers are human too and struggle.

Anonymous

I really enjoyed this one and learned a lot, as always. This thread is already filled with similar statements, but atheism and agnosticism don’t have to be mutually exclusive. I think you can be open to the idea of a deity without believing in one. Atheism is just the absence of said belief. As long as you don’t claim to know for certain, you’re not being hypocritical, in my opinion. That said, it’s just a word, anyway. “Non-religious” and “agnostic” work just fine, too. I consider myself atheist and agnostic, though, so what do I know? -Cody Howell

Paeter Frandsen
>>26261614

So glad you like what you're hearing, Connor! And thanks for checking out my channel! Looking forward to sharing part 2 of that series next week! It was quite the experience for me so I've got a lot to share about it! For anyone who missed my link to the first video, you can find it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRp-shLFIVw

Paeter Frandsen
>>26262681

So glad to be useful, Justin. Thanks for sharing that. And I'll echo your thanks to Colin for his respectful attitude and thoughtful questions, though his graciousness came as no surprise. That's our Colin!

Paeter Frandsen
>>26270748

The popular level usage of "atheist" has certainly become flexible in recent years, the result of a movement on the part of some to redefine it in the 20th century. But the classical, academic definition of atheist involves a truth claim, where the atheist claims "God does not exist". For more on the distinctions, here is a very predictable URL recommendation: https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/question-answer/definition-of-atheism/

Lucas Gremista

Coming from an agnostic person, I always wanted to explain to you that you are not an atheist, you're agnostic like me. I just never knew how to explain (my Brazilian accent) in a coherent way so I never tried to pitch a fireside chat. I'm glad that Paeter was able to put these thoughts in a masterful way. I think this was the best fireside chat about religion and the timeline shows that it might have been yours as well. Now I'd be complete with someone that can convince you that you're not a Republican or even a Libertarian, you're just too good and balanced a person to be placed in any political spectrum. Best regards, Lucas Gremista

Tyler Bello

Hey Colin on your rapist/murderer vs the good man going to heaven I have something that hopefully gives you insight into that. First it's not just believing its believing and accepting God into your life and heart so the chances of an evil person being able to do it are slim he couldn't just believe he would sincerely have to know his wrong and accept them. He would literally have to pull a full 180 of his life. But let's say the evil man truly gets his wrongs and repents you think it's unfair that the good man doesnt get forgiven? Well the difference is.. if your a father and you have two sons and one runs off and does heinous acts and the other also runs off and you never hear from him again, then the one who committed the heinous acts comes back and asks for forgiveness... he is favored because the other son never came back at all. I definitely get your perspective though.

Jason Stafford

I just want to say thank you again to Colin for fostering a community of people that can have discussions like these without devolving into something horrible. Also, a big thank you to everyone who posted in this thread for being cool and considerate.

kevin berger

I really hope you record another conversation with Paeter. This was such an amazing one to listen to. I don’t believe in god and I was fascinated by this one. I know fireside chats is going to be gone. It will surely be missed.

Paeter Frandsen
>>26318615

I would love that, too! Alas, it seems unlikely. But even though it would be missing the more interesting person, you can get way more than you want of me on the Christian Geek Central podcast or at youtube.com/christiangeekcentral! (Including my thoughts on my interview with Colin! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRp-shLFIVw )

kevin berger

I am going to check it out! Looking forward to hearing and challenging my own beliefs.

Crusader

This was pretty great

Trent Miller

The religion based fireside chats are always some of my favorites and this one didn’t disappoint. Well done to the two of you for the insightful conversation. It really made me think about my own beliefs as well and this will definitely be something I will be mulling over for the coming days. Thank you!

LastStandMedia
>>26246667

I appreciate it. There's nothing to be hurt about; it's my own hill to climb or not! I suspect it'll be a lifelong project, one way or another, as it has been up to this point.

LastStandMedia
>>26247312

I'm glad to hear that this episode impacted you! Thank you for listening, and for your kind words.

LastStandMedia
>>26290942

Thank you. A lot of people don't think I'm conservative, but I think I make a powerful argument for conservatism.

LastStandMedia
>>26292785

That's an interesting way of looking at it, but I can't see it as cosmically just. I may have ran off and not come back, but I didn't necessarily do anything. This is a major hangup I have with Christianity: Why is God portrayed as being so petty?

Anonymous

Your depiction of a typical catholic mass just triggered the shit out of me. I hate it so much haha. I wish I had the balls to tell my mom that I no longer identify as being catholic. Great episode!

Paeter Frandsen

For anyone interested, I posted the 2nd of my two-part video series chronicling my experience with Colin, this one covering how I thought the interview went! You can find it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39f_FZ17n1Y

GameSimp

My environment of Catholicism actually harbored questioning and deep analysis of scripture, just as you two did in this episode. Specifically, my catholic high school encouraged this. Also, Mary statues are terrifying on their own. If I saw one crying blood I think I would have to disappear into the woods for the rest of my life LOL.

Jeremiah Lyne

Probably the best of the Christian episodes which is saying something. First time I've heard the theory of hell not being the same for all. Also, I love the ancientness of the Catholic mass - interesting to think of all the emperors, kings, ancestors who followed the same rites.

Riley Smith

God what I'd give to be on this show talking about religion. I'm not an expert but religion is one of my favorite things to study

Anonymous

I'm really going to miss fireside chats. :( Anyways, you always end these topics with "am I going to Hell" but as a fellow agnostic that has also spent too much time reading the Bible privately, I think your comparison is wrong. Comparing who has been the "better" human, is not how God is seeing one person vs another. If I can use a sports analogy, you might be scoring more baskets but the game is football. That aside, you also made the case for God revealing himself to prove he is real but one thing I never hear mentioned is why Jesus only appeared to a small slice of all humans given that we know the world was far bigger than what people of the time knew. Imagine if disconnected cultures all over the world, all around the same time had reported about the same man and his teachings only with slight alterations to fit the nuances of each culture. This is one of my biggest sticking points. God/Jesus came only once to earth (as far as we know) and given that it's eternal life that is at stake, it doesn't seem crazy to expect him to make the rounds.

Anonymous

Gonna miss this show. Great talk!

LastStandMedia
>>26528855

I'm sorry you're gonna miss the show. But never say never! I'll never cancel it outright. =)

Dean Redinbaugh

Thank you very much for participating Paeter! I didn't quite get my faith back, but you definitely have me intrigued to pursue some subjects that I haven't thought of deeply in well over 15 years.

Paeter Frandsen

It was SO my pleasure, Dean. Glad you found it engaging!

Maul from Kayfabe Media on YouTube

Very great episode and i hope you guys get back together to expand on some topics. About the rapist going to heaven topic, one key thing about Christianity is everyone deserves hell. Heaven is through the grace of God and the sacrifice of Jesus. The sinner does not go to heaven because they earned it, but because they honestly repented and had that sin paid for by the blood of Christ. Its not that he earned his place, its that heaven allows for all to be redeemed. And its not just saying ok i believe in God. God knows your heart if its true