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Sacred Symbols+, Episode 370 | Nintendo, Yuzu, and the Hazardous Future of Emulation (Patreon)

Published:
2024-03-09 17:00:28
Edited:
2024-03-12 16:54:59
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Sacred Symbols+ is designed, in part, to facilitate deeper discussion about gaming-related topics that don't necessarily connect to PlayStation or its ecosystem, and today's episode is one such offering. As such, please welcome LSM legal analyst Rick Hoeg to the show, along with Punching Up co-host Dagan Moriarty and Summon Sign co-host Brad Ellis. I wanted these three folks to join me (Colin) with a purpose in mind; to facilitate a chat about game emulation from multiple, disparate perspectives. Yes, we focus on what recently happened with Nintendo and the Yuzu Switch emulator, but we also talk about the economic and moralistic questions that arise when you steal, no matter how you may choose to justify it to yourself. And as you'll find out, our justifications (or lack thereof) vary as widely as the ethical and monetary quandaries themselves.

Vote for Hoeg! https://heroes.stroke.org/rick-hoeg/ 

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Mattveego

Love me some Brad

Jamin Fuller

My question is, what are the legalities for the companies in doing it themselves? Obviously everything is there for it to happen, and easily, but no company does it. If I were to take a guess, it is because it has to do with security and liability. How can you have an emulator on your system, as Nintendo, that can be used to run PSP games? Opens up a lawsuit for Sony. In other words, people who create emulators don't actually take any steps to make security for the device they are emulating. They make the lockpick, and don't care what they let it in, they just want to get what they came for. Ok, you can now play N64 games. That same tech could be used for dreamcast games. Two different companies there. No way Nintendo could make their technology like that. This then leads me to the argument of preservation. Again, emulating is making a lockpick. It isn't making a new box. It is NOT a company's responsibility to make their products available infinitely, especially when I GUARANTEE you thry cannot operate on the same level in legal production as someone who makes an emulator. People who emulate try to justify it with all of these specific reasons, but in reality, you are breaking into an abandoned building. Sure, no one will do much about it, but there are legalities to it that are bring ignored because you simply don't matter because of how small you are, which is why a larger corporation can't do it, because they actually have to operate within the law.

Kasual7

Brad for the Nintendo vibes + Hoeg for the legal side= banger of a show!

Gray Gordon

What’s the 3rd “F” !?! Great show as always LSM Crew.

Zac Lebeau

I disagree with the notion that it isn't okay to emulate new consoles or games. Personally, I think that if you own the console and games you're emulating then there is no moral issue with emulating it. The problem is with the people that are using emulation to steal and pirate these consoles and games. You may say that most people that are emulating are pirating, but that doesn't mean you should throw out the baby with the bathwater. Just like how most people who kill are murdering for unjustified reasons, but that doesn't mean we should outlaw killing in self defense.

David Kraytsberg

If you can't buy something in a reasonable way, I see no ethical problem with emulation. Otherwise, true, it's people pirating things to avoid paying for it.

John Baptist

Wow great conversation guys. Thank you Colin for being honest and nit bring afraid to call stealing for what it is.

Craig Carter

Always does me well to see Brad on more LSM shows.

Your Boi Nicky V

If emulators didn't exist I never would have got to realise a literal dream of playing Socom 2 online again. I'd gladly give Sony £1000 to play it but they aren't interested.

Brandon Van Cleave

If there is a game I want to play, I’m going to play that game. If the company that made it has made it available for purchase, I will always buy it. If they have not, that’s not my problem. I want to give you my money, and you are not accepting it. In that case I will do what I need to do to play said game and I have ZERO moral hang ups with that. Call it stealing if you want, I’ll happily accept the title of thief. The idea that a game doesn’t have to be available for sale for all of time is fine, but it IS available, and if you don’t want my money, I’ll play it for free while laughing at your stupidity.

Jared R

I’m not trying to get onto Colin for speaking fast, it’s normally not something I notice, but the intro to this one had me wondering if I’d bumped up the podcast speed by accident.

Brian Presley
>>131907151

This. I find it odd no one made the argument that you can own a switch, buy Zelda, but then emulate it on your PC bc it will run worlds better than the switch. Nintendo lost no money in this situation. There are definitely a group of people who did this. Yes lots pirated the game as well. Part of the issue for Nintendo is they use lower tier hardware, making it far easier to emulate current gen.

Cameron

The ending of this episode was the poscast equivalent of when you're at a family function, standing by the door, right about to head out but end up having an hour-long, full blown conversation anyways. (In a good way)

Ryan

Colin saying watching a long play of a game is the equivalent of playing it yourself is kinda crazy..

Mike R
>>131907151

Yea, playing the games in 4K was mentioned but the huge focus of the conversation was about being able to access the games, which obviously isn’t a very compelling argument to justify emulating current consoles. I would suggest being able to play the games with better graphics and performance is THE attraction of Switch emulation, or at least why it’s gotten so much attention. It also explains why many people who love Nintendo games would buy the console and games but still emulate. In general, there are many other attractive aspects to emulation beyond simply accessing the games, including enhanced visuals/performance, rom hacks/modding, and fan translations.

NeO JD
>>132002339

Colin would have a completely different tune if he could no longer play Mega-Man himself and be forced to watch it. 😅

Zachary

Another point I would have liked to hear the boys discuss is the idea that people widely opted to emulate tears of the kingdom because of its lack luster resolution and performance. Is there an argument to be had that people would gladly pay Nintendo for the option to play the title with better hardware?

Jordan Costa
>>132002339

There are some games in which most of the "value" is in the narrative. That's what he's referring to. Of course this is totally not applicable for something like Dark Souls or Mega Man

Jordan Costa

I understand playing on a Switch emulator simply because Zelda running at 16fps on native hardware is pathetic... However, it should only be done (IMHO) if you've already paid for your Switch copy. Anything less is just stealing. Crazy some of the mental gymnastics people will do to justify their behavior.

MrFreundly
>>132002339

I never tire of hearing Colin’s thoughts, but this was one I don’t agree with.

Seth
>>131907151

By delegitimaizing this thought process and blanket saying all emulation is bad. Nintendo may also be inadvertently pushing people who would buy the switch and game to emulate guilt free into just pirating it since in Nintendos eyes they are both illegal. Why do it the right way if you'll get in trouble regardless. Obviously there are moral reason not to think that way, but I'm sure that internal argument has happened for a good amount of people.

Carter Evenson
>>132058296

The main reason for emulating is not being able to buy something anymore. The switch and yuzu is of course a bit different as it’s more because the switch is a pathetic home console.

PluuusRyan

One topic I was somewhat surprised wasn't raised was the idea of rom hacks. I honestly don't know the legality of this, especially if it is a situation in which the hacker originally purchased that game (which seems to be sort of a pass for myself and many others). Some of my favorite ways of consuming content, both playing and viewing, is particularly Pokemon rom hacks. Does transforming the base product in some meaningful way change anyone's moral or the legal calculus?

PluuusRyan

Also, I'm somewhat surprised that Colin is so surprised that at how many TotK copies were pirated pre-release. It's already been discussed how the hype and for this game was astronomical for this game and getting to play it early was almost certainly a factor. However, I think it's also worth considering that 1) There are more gamers now than ever, both as a percentage of population and as an absolute number. 2) Digital and internet access makes pirating much easier too. You don't need to buy special equipment and discs and rent an original copy, you just need to download some software.

Mike R
>>132151694

I agree, rom hacks and fan translations are a huge part of emulation. From my understanding, hosting the hacks is fully legal, but obviously not the hacked rom. There are some software and hardware solutions that allow hacks to run more like patches on official hardware with legitimately purchased games, although those might still require things that would raise Nintendo’s ire like flash carts or running homebrew. Even without that, Nintendo sued Game Genie in the 90s for creating “derivative works” and lost, and you could transfer that thinking to rom hack patches. That might explain why they have left things like the Mother 3 fan translation alone even though you can be sure they are VERY aware of it.

Jordan Wray

Fun conversation but I feel like Colin made some of the worst, least thought out arguments that could even be said on the matter. The whole "It says a lot about you, and it says a lot about me and where we diverge" is a moral high horse I really don't feel he has any right trying to be on.

Seamndel

46:17 it's disturbing how Colin keeps pushing the narrative that backwards compatibility will be a given thing from now on, when SONY literally exed an entire catalog of games as late as last year with PSVR2 not being able to run PSVR games. Also, I argue that if Achievements/Trophies for an older version of a game become unattainable then whatever you're playing is an entirely different game, even if the publisher advertises it as a "re-release".

Glen Yelenovic

Voted for Hoeg for stroke of the year… “I’m doing my part!”

Kevin Garcia

Wonder if Colin ever gets chilly up there, on his high horse

Michal Dudic

Emulation is PC space and PC people are coming from Gabe Newell's "piracy is a service problem" position. They are used to accessing games in ways that have been tailor-made to suit their needs and preferences (legally, I might add). 1 mil pirated TOTK not because they wanted to do harm or even because they wanted to play the game. They pirated TOTK because they could. It was easy, it was right there, and they were never gonna buy a Switch anyway, just like they were never gonna buy a Playstation. Alternatively, they didn't want to play TOTK in 720p sub-30fps when a better alternative was right there. It's true in the case of Switch emulation more than it is in other cases, that there is no direct connection between piracy and revenue loss (to be more precise, no effect has ever been found). Almost none of the people who pirated TOTK were ever going to buy it because they would not consider buying a Switch. Playstation has learned (and proven) that if they just release their games on PC, those players will pay for them. Nintendo, on the other hand, will keep getting emulated, pirated, and they'll keep expending resources on litigating with no real effect (emulators will not stop being developed) instead of meeting the customer where they are.

Nick Lone

The sense of entitlement and hubris surrounding this conversation is both laughable and ridiculous. When it comes to Switch emulation, the people doing this are nothing more than babies and man-children who will pretzel themselves into a baseless position simply because they feel entitled to a consumer product. The excuses are beyond pathetic. You do not “deserve” to experience ToTK in 4K at 60FPS. You are not special. The Switch is currently the 3rd best selling piece of gaming hardware of all time, and will likely take the number two or number one spot over the next couple of years. There is a HUGE market for what Nintendo is doing with Switch. ToTK sold 20 million copies within a few weeks of launch. Nintendo designed the Switch hardware and ToTK according to a set of clear principles and, more importantly, sensible budget demands. The game is not in 4K and 60FPS for a reason. Unlike AAA studios, Nintendo is being smart with their design philosophy and not overextending themselves while still giving those in a sizeable chunk of the gaming market products that appeal to them. It is simply good business. Look at their software sales numbers this generation compared to MS or Sony. This fact is undeniable. If this system and software doesn’t appeal to you, it’s not their problem. It’s yours. There are plenty of other games and hardware out there for you to enjoy in the AAA or 4K60 space. Just because 1 million man-babies and / or software pirates are upset that a game “runs poorly” on the hardware it was designed for does not mean Nintendo should drop everything and start catering to that (small) minority of people who demand more visuals or horsepower or whatever. Nor does it give you an excuse to play it without parting with your hard earned money because “it’s not worth it”. You don't get to vote with your wallet and still get a piece of cake to eat. Making hardware and software run at 4K 60FPS makes zero sense for what Nintendo’s core audience wants. Putting their games on PC also makes zero sense in their business model. If you are not part of that core audience who enjoys and appreciates what they are doing, I don’t know what to tell you. Using this as justification to enjoy their products anyway without paying is beyond pathetic. Demanding they change their entire strategy to cater to your specific needs is also pathetic. The market has already spoken when it comes to what Nintendo is doing this generation. Loudly. And it is speaking just as loudly when it comes to what is happening in the AAA space. Demanding Nintendo go into a space that is losing money and support is beyond dumb.

SLtheFMA

I sadly couldn't disagree with Colin more in this conversation. The situation with Yuzu is understandable though.

Owen

“There’s not a conservation in video games problem” - What? Watching a video of a game is not the game existing. What an awful take