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Art feedback (Patreon)

Published:
2020-10-21 00:28:01
Imported:
2021-03

Content

Hi all, no release post just yet, though there's just tests and bugfixing left for the next version so you can expect it soon.


Instead, I'd like to get some feedback on a piece of art I've commissioned for Game Two, my unreleased fantasy project that I'm slowly making progress on.

This is part of a trial commission - I've commissioned three images from this artist to decide whether they should be involved further. This means that this image may or may not end up in the actual game.


So, the artist is partway through this commission, and they've sent me two images and asked for feedback. I'm pleased with one of these images, but something seems 'off' to me about the one I've posted here. I can't quite put my finger on it, but there's something about her upper body that just doesn't seem quite right to me.

The problem is that this is not very useful feedback. "Something looks off to me, but I can't put my finger on it" is not enough information to let the artist know what tweaks should be made. Sadly, I don't have much of an art background and this is clearly limiting my ability to pinpoint issues.

So, I'm wondering if you guys can help me out here. What do you think of this piece? Do you agree that it needs adjustments, or am I just being crazy? Most important, can you give any specific advice for me to pass onto the artist? 


For reference, here's the current bio for the character, although this may change as development proceeds:

Adventurer: Kara the Mercenary

Background:

Eat, drink and be merry, for you may die tomorrow!

Kara enlisted into her baron's forces in search of wealth, fun and adventure. Finding none of these, she joined a mercenary company. Wealth proved hard to come by, but she found adventure, if that means hiding beneath a shield from a hail of enemy arrows and she had fun, if one's idea of fun is getting blind drunk in memory of a fallen comrade.

As skirmish after bloody skirmish took its toll on her, she found herself seeking refuge in wine and ale. Fired from her company after a brutal hangover left her sleeping through their latest clash with Grilk tribals, she now seeks work with an adventuring band. Preferably one whose members drink as hard as they fight.



Thanks for reading, and I hope you're having a good week!

Files

Comments

RevolverJ

I'm not into art much myself due to being such a perfectionist, but I definitely agree that the proportions seem a bit off around the chest area. It looks like they did this all in one step and because of that the chest is off center / pushed out more to the right than it should be.

SymbolicSight

Stepping away from the anatomical issues, I also notice the drawing is focused on the sexual aspect, whereas the character description focuses on her affinity for drinking. From your description, I would expect her to be seated (or on the floor, or leaning against a wall, etc) holding a bottle, glass, mug, etc casually... perhaps in a state of undress, perhaps not. It just seems like there's no... sense of your description in the drawing. Nice looking girl, not a hard drinking, fighting woman.

Dunan Rayne

Is she PC? I hope so. Her background is very intriguing. Anyway, I hope your second project will succeed. But I don't know anything about the Artwork Commission, so I don't have any advice. So your second project was a medieval fantasy genre. I want you to create a realistic medieval world. Recently I have been playing Witcher 3. And this game shows a realistic medieval world. sexual discrimination, racial discrimination, and harsh exploitation of the low-class citizen. It really describes the medieval world in a cruel and realistic way. In many medieval fantasy genres, men and women are generally equal. And that's really nonsense. If you are creating a medieval fantasy genre for the female protagonist, you need to consider the medieval world shown from a female point of view. She used to be a guardwoman, but now she's a mercenary. But in the Middle Ages, such career choices are not common for women. Physical limitations, sexist eyes, etc. Even if she became a guardman or a mercenary, many men would look down on her. Not only the lords, but even the petty peasants will sexually target her, looking not at her sword but at her milky tits and butt. Even among her comrades who have been with her for a long time, there will be Jerk who looks down on her, not as an equal companion to the end. The life of mercenaries was very tough. In real history, employers have often refused to pay an army of mercenaries. Maybe he was more mean to a lone mercenary. They often try to kill mercenaries rather than pay them. So I want her employer to refuse to pay her at a fairly high probability. Or pay her less than the employer promised her. Sometimes I want them to try to kill her or sexually abuse her. e.g. She was asked by a remote rural village chief to wipe out bandits. The target is a small bandit, so she decided to act on her own instead of forming a team. It wasn't easy, but in the end she wiped out the bandits by herself. She came back to town and asked for money, but Chief said he'd treat her to dinner first. The dinner soup had sleeping powder and she was caught in Chief's trap. At first, Chief was going to pay, but he changed his mind when he found out that she was a woman and a lone wolf. The next morning she finds herself disarmed and confined in a barn. He had an excuse, too. This year's crop was bad, and the town was plundered by bandits for months. She was in a bad place at a bad time. A few days go by like that. The villagers betrayed her, but there was no consensus on what to do with her. Some residents insisted on killing her. Some residents called for a peaceful resolution. Some residents have maimed her and then released her, while others have even suggested selling her to a brothel slave dealer. Fortunately they provided her with water and food while in captivity, but some Jerks began to touch her. Because she was beautiful and buxom, especially for the countrymen, female mercenaries were enough to stimulate curiosity and sexual desire to conquer... For the first few days, one or two of them had secretly visited her during the night, but after a few days they came in swarms in broad daylight and conquered her body. She clenched her teeth and persevered. From the moment she chose the life of a mercenary with a woman's body, she was prepared for such humiliation and abuse. She may choose how to escape on her own, or she may attract some of the villagers to her side and be freed nonviolently. If she chooses to escape herself, she can kill some villagers in the process or sneak away without killing them. She could even exterminate the entire village. If she chooses peaceful negotiations, she will first need to drive a wedge between the villagers. She is perhaps instigate the peaceful group of villagers, make them free her. Or she could stimulate the greed of the villagers and make them kill each other. She could even sexually fascinate the Jerks who had violated her and incite them to drive the town into chaos. Maybe she won't get caught in Chief's trap at all. If she persuades Chief first to get the money before embarking on her mission. Then she can wipe out the bandits and leave without coming back to town. I don't know if there is magic or elf in your game. If such things exist, human nature will fear and oppress them. Generally, magic users are subject to fear and contempt, so they will be socially constrained. The noble family magic user will be relatively free from such restrictions, but the commoner will live under surveillance and oppression for the rest of her life. Human, Elf, Dwerf, and other races... There will also be unequal relations between races. Such inequality is caused simply by racial differences, but also by national power gaps between countries. If the Kingdom of Elves is weaker than the Kingdom of Humanity, the Elves will be despised by humans. e.g. Once the Elf civilization ruled the whole world. They lived tens of times longer than any other species, and were more intelligent. In the heyday of Elf civilization, the elves were imbued with a sense of superiority to the lower races. But the Elf civilization gradually fell. Because of their chronic low birth-rate problems and individualism, their species have been dying out for thousands of years. The legacy of the brilliant Elf civilization was gradually forgotten and abandoned because there was no heir. The Elf Empire was divided into the Small Kingdom, and the Elf Kingdom was again fragmented into a small clan community. In today's Elf society, young children are rarely found. In the meantime, an emerging race of humans appeared. Humans quickly grew in number with a vigorous sexual desire, and with endless greed they took over the hegemony of the whole world. Today, The capital of the ancient Elves was taken down by humans and became the center of the human kingdom. And elves are an endangered species with only a handful left. Some elves are waiting for their deaths in the few hidden elf cities left, while others are mixed up in the human city to endure persecution and discrimination, continuing their lives. The elves who once ruled the whole world are now barely surviving as the lower classes of human society. Of course, elves are much more intelligent than humans, and since they are an ancient species, most individual humans still fear elves. But when humans become a group, they openly persecute elves and sometimes maliciously attack them. Young elf women, in particular, are sexually attacked by human low-life Jerks. For rich humans, pure-blooded beauty elves will be sexual trophies. Elves are on the verge of extinction, but they still maintain a sense of superiority over humans. Humans are now displeased with the elves, the humble lower classes of their society, because elves are still arrogant. Elves are still smart, agile and talented, so much superior to humans. Perhaps it is uncommon for a human to defeat an Elf in a one-to-one battle. Even half-elves are inferior to pure-blooded elves, but superior to humans. But Elves are overwhelmed by humans in numbers. I hope the young female half elf is the solo protagonist. That way, she can suffer both social persecution as a woman and hardships as an Elf. I prefer the underdog who struggles in the gutter, rather than the glorious hero who is ready. The reason why I prefer Half-Elf, not Elf, is that her background can be more full of pain and sadness. A child born between a powerful human race and a fallen elf must have a very interesting background. Perhaps she was never born in love. so She'll probably be ostracized by both races. This could be a specific reason why she chose the life of a tough mercenary even though she was a woman. Anyway, I'd like to see her struggle against the brutal realities of the medieval world as a young female half-elf. I hope there's no distinction between good and bad in everything she does. I hope that good intentions can go to evil endings, and sometimes evil intentions can go to good endings. Man acts according to profit and necessity. People don't act on the basis of good and evil. If people's behavior is divided into just good and bad, the game will be less valuable for second-round play. If she's a lowlife, she must want to improve her life. Therefore, she will have to make numerous heartless choices. Not only her, but also all the NPCs she encounters. She acts entirely on her own profit rather than morality, but how far she goes will be the player's choice.

Koopatroopa187
>>46226471

The issue is that you're focusing on the middle ages from a historically factual perspective and not the middle ages from a fantasy perspective. In sword and sorcery fantasy, women are equal to men and always have been in the genre.

Dunan Rayne

But which game engine are you going to choose? Java? RPG Maker? Ren'fy? I'm deeply fascinated by your Java-based game, New Life. I really like your writing skills. But I want the second project to be more visual. RPG maker is a pretty good choice, but it's still your choice. Please don't choose Ren'fy. I am distressed as a non-English speaking player because Ren'fy uses text to explain all the situations. Choose Java rather than Ren'fy. Anyway, I hope your second project is to play the solo protagonist. She acts with a colleague temporarily as needed or as an event, but I absolutely hope she is a lone wolf. I basically prefer Witcher much more than the final fantasy... :) I think solo protagonist is good to be completely immersed in the main character. Come to think of it, if a female mercenary is the main character, she is more suited to a lone wolf. Because in a medieval world cruel to women, male colleagues would not accept her as an equal companion. More often than not, they will treat her as a sexual object. As a female mercenary, I hope there are many difficult situations for her to get a job. Clients basically doubt her abilities because she's a woman. So she is very greedy, but I hope there are many situations in which male mercenaries snatch good pay jobs in front of her. That's why she'll usually be in charge of low-paying, boring jobs. Sometimes she gets a decent paycheck job, but her clients will try to screw her up. As I said before, there have been so many employers in real history who refuse to pay mercenaries. If the men's mercenaries often lack hands, they would like to hire her temporarily. In this case, she'll get paid stably, but she'll have trouble with fellow men. I'm sorry I'm asking too much, but I hope she can negotiate with her client before embarking on a mission. A and B haggle over compensation, A trying to raise compensation, B trying to lower it. But B often doesn't pay A for the promised compensation, or tries to give A a lower price. As I said before, when she gets a job from her client, I want her to be able to bargain with her client. If her social points are high, she can convince her client. But if her social points are low, she will lose the negotiations with her client. And she'll have to comply with her client's demands. Also, to prevent her being betrayed later, I hope she can ask her client to pay part of the compensation in advance. Of course, her social stats must be high to persuade her client. Let me ask you one last question. Is there a dating-sim element in your second project? I prefer nonlinear stories far more than linear ones. so I hope your second project will inherit the nonlinear elements of New Life... Romantic, selfish, Jerk... I hope she has many potential romance partners with various personalities.

Dunan Rayne
>>46226471

I agree with you if the player chooses male and female characters as player's protagonist. But if the player doesn't have a choice about the gender of the protagonist, it may go a different way. If the player's protagonist has been decided to be a woman from the start... In sword and sorcery fantasy, I don't think there's a need for a gender-equal world. Rather, I think the human-drama she wins in the cruel medieval world will be more interesting. In fact, the fantasy genre, in which men and women are equal, is a trend created recently. In the classic fantasy genre, there was a sexist element about female characters. Lord of the Rings, Witcher, Conan the Barbarian, etc. Red Sonya is genre of classic fantasy. Red Sonja's world abuses women very harshly. But She never succumbs to the cruel world of men and kicks Jerk's ass trying to oppress her. But I hate Red Sonja. I don't like Red Sonya because it's just a female character with a male soul. Red Sonja is that she is much more macho than men. This is so unrealistic. I prefer a female heroine with both femininity and strong. Basically, novels and games are fiction. But to be a good fiction, reality must be reflected. Fiction lacking realism makes even the stories and characters poor. It's just my opinion.

Blottscrunk

The redline drawing from Logan looks right to me, if you extrapolate from the position of her head and shoulders. It looks almost like the artist changed their mind about the pose after drawing the head and shoulders. If you look just from the top of the breasts down, that section works okay on its own too. Summary: Her head and shoulders are turned further to her left than the rest of her body, they are leaning back more, and they are positioned too far to her right (easier to notice if you focus on where her left shoulder is). None of that is possible without breaking several important bones.

Neptune

Being blunt, it's just not that great. Perspective on the upper body is different than that on the lower body, shoulder width is strange, and the messiness of the whole thing is very unappealing. The face also really didn't come together. I get that it's stylized, but the whole thing looks like some combination of dated, lazy, and unpolished. Maybe some people prefer this but this is not art I'd want to see with any frequency in an H-game. I'd love to see a cleaner, more literal artist tackle the project. This is just a layperson's blunt, personal, biased feedback though. Not like I know anything about this.

Neptune
>>46226471

You mean the sliver of reality you personally prioritize should be reflected. Your fixation on realistic inequality is arbitrary. I think there is room for some good stories to come of it if they take that approach here, but let's be clear on it.

Blottscrunk
>>46229299

Also, further to what Oldcityguy said about her lady bits, yes they are slanted strangely, and they also come up too high. The "crease" of some women can go up that high (more likely on a well padded lady), but the location of the bits inside is less variable, and this picture immediately looked wrong to me. There's a suggestion of clitoral hood right at the top of the crease, then maybe one labia minora peeking out just under that, and then an equal amount of space under that. I feel like her clit should be much lower, and if any labia minora are visible they should be poking more or less down, not forward. A quick search on Google Images, which yielded mostly still life model style photos rather than erotic art, does seem to confirm this.

Blottscrunk
>>46229299

Lastly, in support of what CT-Dragon88 said, I also think the artist may be too inexperienced. With the right feedback they might be able to produce satisfactory standalone images, but looking at the general roughness of the style I suspect they would really struggle to recreate the same character with the same proportions and features, but with different expressions and in different poses and scenarios.

Dunan Rayne
>>46226471

Actually it's not my original idea. It was what I learned in literature class when I was in high school. "A novel is a fictional story made up by a writer based on facts." I am not good at English, so I am not sure if the meaning will be conveyed enough. Well, high school literature was a liberal arts course, and when I went to college, I went to a department that was completely out of touch with literature, so I'm not really in a position to discuss good fiction. And I'm telling you, you're right. It'll have my personal wish in it. After all, all my writings strongly include my personal preferences. But it's my fault if I try to force my thoughts on others. Because everyone has different perspectives and philosophies. Actually, I'm just actively appealing my ideas to Splendid Ostrich... :)

Anonymous

As others have said, the upper torso is asymmetrical and the genitals are a little off. Additionally I think her mouth is actually slightly off center. The whole piece in terms of style is also in a bit of a rough place between stylized and realistic. It's not bad, but it's got a couple big issues, and when even the average person with no artistic background can spot that immediately, that's when it's a problem. I'd be curious to see more from this artist, as I do like the brush they've used, and I don't think it's always fair to judge someone from a single piece, but if mistakes like this are consistent I really wouldn't want to see art like this in an adult game. It'd just be distracting.

splendidostrich
>>46216022

Hi! That's really my fault. My design for the adventurer characters is that each will have two main images: a fully clothed one for normal adventuring and an NSFW one that's shown during sex scenes. This is the NSFW one - I requested bare groin and breasts to gauge whether the artist can draw a sexually-appealing character.

splendidostrich
>>46226471

Kara isn't the PC, but she can be part of the PC's party. Or, when the game's finished that'll be possible - she hasn't actually been implemented in the dev version yet. The setting is implied to be somewhat partiarchal, but not as much as the historical middle-ages. Because of how the game works it's necessary to allow for plenty of female adventurers. In fact, for budget reasons I intend for around 2/3 of the adventurers to be female. It's therefore necessary for the setting to at least tolerate female mercenaries, bards and whatnot. As for elves, I won't be including them - I'm mostly avoiding the use of obvious Tolkein races, though there are some that take some inspiration from his work.

splendidostrich
>>46226823

Unity, and it's not a linear game but it doesn't really have dating-sim influences. The core gameplay is about adventuring, not about building relationships.

Anonymous

If I were you, I would just have placeholder images for the art. Then once the game is in a playable state, give the place holder images to a GOOD artist and tell him to fill in the blanks.

splendidostrich
>>46229478

Thanks! I'll pass this onto the artist - be as blunt as you like! It's best for me to get honest feedback before committing to an artist, and I think the artist will want honest feedback too rather than being told that things are fine and then failing to get a followup commission.

splendidostrich
>>46244472

Also, because the feedback here has been so useful I think I'll post all 3 images once the commission is complete and get people's opinions on whether the artist should be commissioned further.

splendidostrich
>>46246922

Game Two was designed to be quite art-heavy. My goal was to share the workload with other people, unlike with Newlife where I have to make all the content myself. Having artists involved is a good way to do that. Because of this I don't think a public release with placeholder art would work very well. It'd be technically be playable, just as the current pre-alpha version is theoretically sort-of playable, but I don't think it'd be enjoyable as an erotic game.

Anonymous

also suggest doing layered images, so if your character needs to be displayed wearing different types of armor/clothing then its easier for the artist to just save out some layers. Again done using palceholders

Diddle Bop

The neck should be centered on the torso...

BlackhawkShazam

her head seems to be a bit offcenter making her left boob look like there is more body on that side than the other. kinda like the hunchback of Notre dame.

BigManCheese

Yeah as people have said her hips, ribcage and shoulders aren't aligned properly perspective wise which is super offputting. Her waist is also really fucking narrow. Like, unhealthily narrow for the rest of her proportions

Neptune
>>46229478

For sure, just glad it didn't come off as needlessly critical.

splendidostrich
>>46226823

Not in the planned initial release. Perhaps later on, to some extent, although the gameplay doesn't mesh well with monogamy so any relationships would have to come with the understanding that they're to some extent open.

splendidostrich
>>46248356

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm going with single images rather than a paper-doll because it should allow for characters body language to vary more and this will hopefully be better for expressing their personalities. Still, a paper-doll isn't entirely off the table if I run into issues with the art.