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Rough times for some. I'm not at any real risk, and I imagine that people might be sick of the news, so this week I wanted to reflect on some of my thoughts on TLS. Specifically, regarding the future of the characters and how it relates to pregnancy and progeny.

The characters in TLS are generally not interesting in having children and this is not accidental. Most obviously, they're involved in a lot of dangerous events and don't really have time for pregnancy. Beyond that, however, we start to run into some questions that are, for me at least, major concerns.

As an adult game, one angle is obviously the potential impregnation fetish, but it's one that I have mixed feelings about. Aside from a few stories, I've rarely seen this done in a way that includes parenthood... or consequences beyond that moment, really. In fact, I think I've seen more instances where the fetish itself is that the consequences will wreck the woman's life than ones that consider the future of potential children.

Not considering the consequences would not be exactly thematic for TLS, I think we'd all agree. Also not really in character that Simon. Hence why the one major instance is set in the specific context of Eustrin. There will also be some pseudo-pregnancy stuff later, but I want to focus on the characters for this post. In some of the comments, you guys again took my story more seriously than I expected, which is always nice. ^-^

As has been clear for a while now, the story is moving toward immortality for the main cast, which adds complexity to the question. Rather than approach it in the abstract, let me jump to the scenario that I spent the most time thinking about, back when I was originally planning TLS.

Say that succubi like Yarra or Nalili have children with Simon. They'd want those children to have a healthy relationship with their father (by succubus standards), and when those children grew up, it would just repeat the same problem. I'll address mortal children next paragraph, but considering immortality, that's a positive feedback loop. That's a potential fantasy, I guess, but not one I'm exploring with TLS.

Immortality isn't easily obtained in this setting, however, which means having children would lead to them dying before their parents. I know this one can step on toes, but this makes me think about anti-natalism as a philosophical position. I don't know of any philosophers who have discussed this hypothetical, but I think immortality has a serious impact on the question. Immortals having mortal children for the sake of emotional fulfillment inspires a deep sense of revulsion in me.

I can write it in the best possible light, of course, but I can't think of a way to completely remove my qualms. The situation in Eustrin is that attempt, because the dwarves have a worldview that's both communal and a bit fatalistic. There are some bitter dwarves out there, but most are happy to pass their legacy on to a new generation with a brighter future. Neranda will eventually say more about this in the game,  because they have some philosophy built around it.

It's beyond the scope of what the game will cover in detail, but that's the future for Simon's dwarven children. They grow up surrounded by lots of aunts and lead an extraordinary generation of dwarves, increasing fertility along with industry and political might. The dwarves never become populous compared to the other races, but their numbers increase instead of decline, led by several strong lineages.

That isn't to say that there won't be more discussion of pregnancy in the game, both characters reacting to what's occurred and expressing various positions. It also won't necessarily follow the same channels, because those might not necessarily support my goals for the overall feeling of TLS. But that's my mental endgame that's informed my decisions up to this point, so I thought laying it out in a little detail might have value for future discussion.

This has been your long rambling post for the moment. ^-^ Hope it's of interest, and feel free to give opinions, but that's my general stance.

Comments

Argenten

I get it, also I live! Story, plausibility and character fitness for the kink and situation always come first and TLS has always been the sort that wasnt fitted to the casual take on the related content

Anonymous

A real pleasure to get these kind of peeks into the creative thought process behind the scenes. Thank you for this :)

JJS

Yes it's a slippery slope that I really think you shouldn't heavily get into. You are right to address some of the issues. The way succubi normally raise their children will never be acceptable with humans.

sierralee

Hey, you're alive! Glad you're understanding on this subject, though there is some more content in the pipeline for you.

Dark Art

To be honest I never heard about any serous philosophical discussions on this topic, but I've read some fiction that marginally touched this subject and never seen it done well enough not to make me cringe pretty badly. I am sure you'll try your best, but I'd avoid "mortal kids vs immortal parents" issue like wildfire. I am sure some folks might find this interesting concept, but I am very, VERY sure any (mentally stable) parent would find it very hard to even imagine, let alone enjoy in a game.

EG Douglas

I personally value tonal consistency over wish-fulfilment, and the magic scope of the setting would seem to allow for impregnation/breeding to be a sexual fetish without the actual offspring issue. In terms of children though, I agree with all the concerns mentioned but there is one potential solution that isn't - though I don't know how viable certain manifestations of it may be within the story - Ascension. (Sorry, I'm quite behind on the latest versions, I've been a bit busy...) The issue with the main cast being immortal but having children who would either be immortal themselves and therefore overpower the world, or mortal and thus fated to age and die before their parents, is to remove the parents and any other immortal characters from the realm where the children grow. All children have to transition to their own independent lives eventually, Moving the immortals to a larger but more distant scale of concern provides that room, be it dimensionally or even physically. The Last Sovereign 2: Space is Fucked! Neil Gaiman's Stardust took that approach, as an example. The main couple had children, watched them grow and then left the world to them for a place where they can still observe, but not overshadow.

StormyAngel

I never actually saw the rest of this discussion on the May 15th release post (I mistakenly assumed I would see an email if it had continued) so I appreciate that you took this time to explain your thoughts in more depth. I definitely agree that a serious consideration of consequences is the right approach for TLS thematically, and I would also find it repulsive for Simon and the Harem to be blasé about their potential children's mortal status at this late stage in the game. Definitely out of character and not at all what I would expect of them. And your point about the difference between children and loved ones who are not family is well made. There absolutely is a difference between bringing someone into a bad situation versus doing your best by those who are thrust into a set of circumstances through no fault of yours or their own. What interests me about this topic is that in the realm of possible solutions, there does exist one that is more optimal. If it were possible to achieve universal immortality, that would remove all constraints. Is such a thing possible? You do seem to be indicating that it isn't, but more to the point, making the assumption in-universe is a pretty big leap, requiring a degree of optimism that partially sets aside realistic expectations. And Simon is the last person I would expect to see setting aside realistic goals in favor of unfounded optimism. Perhaps there's a sliver of Fatalism to that, but I think that's been a part of the TLS setting from the beginning. An acceptance of the world as it truly is, as opposed to what you wish for it to be, and then laboring to improve things accordingly. For a moral philosophy to live by there's a lot to be said for that. TL;DR: Perhaps there are better theoretical solutions to this dilemma, but I believe you've struck a realistic balance on a difficult subject, and this approach does strike me as more thematically appropriate to TLS. Thank you for sharing your thought process with us, and I look forward to seeing it implemented.

Anonymous

I'm of the mindset that fathers and mothers shouldn't have to bury their sons and daughters.

FeyOne

See, this... this right here is why I love this game and really want you to keep creating games in this space even when it is finished. There are so few stories out there, (in games or otherwise!), that really look at the entirety of the lives of the characters in real ways. So many of the modern stories told are just shallow wish fulfillment or thoughtless fetishism. So to have a story where the characters are actually adults, grappling with adult problems, and having to make real choices where they understand the impact on others is just awesome. The fact that it includes allowance for erotic stuff is a bonus, but I honestly feel it would be less of a story without that. It's just such a fantastic game. Separately, we do have historical story narratives for the problem of immortal parents with mortal children. This is idea is hard built into Greek and Roman mythology, appears everywhere in modern fantasy in the form of half-elves, and is seen in a number of other historical religions and branches of fantasy as well. Inherrent to the ones associated with 'good' imortal parents is the recognition on the parents part that having a child is for the childs future, not their own, and they accept from the outset that they will outlive the child. I can't remember the book, but I did read one really good story that handled this well some years ago. One of the imortals said something along the lines that, "family, and the love and support of a family, is one of othe most important things that there is. I can't give my children imortality, but i can give them the love and opprotunity for them to have the best life that they can, and I can give them the freedome to become the best version of themselves that they are able." Anyway, it is a tricky thing, and in the TLS world, in particular, it would be tricky. I'm sure you can handle it well, though! 1st edit - accidentally submitted before finished. 2nd edit - another series that addresses this somewhat obliquely is the "Changer" series of novels, by Jane Lindskold. I thought it was handled really well in there.

Anonymous

Well, isn't Nalili herself a blueprint for this problem? Until the possibility of getting sharded presented itself, she grew up under the impression she'll live a regular length succubus life and won't outlast her mother. The Empress even expresses her disappointment with the entire idea of having children, so the harem members can just point to her experience and be like "uh maybe in the next century I'll feel like it". Though the succubi don't seem to get particularly bothered and just take it as another odd facet of existence. You might need to take the Stardust route for Janine though. I don't think being the Immortal Queen of Yhilin is something she or the country would accept, so unless you're planning to have a second democracy on the continent after her resignation, she will need an heir. Speaking of literature exploring this topic, Roger Zelazny's Lord of Light provides a less optimistic take: a small number of refugees from ruined Earth reaches immortality and godlike powers via technological means and repopulate a new planet, but they think of their progeny as lesser beings, keep them in a poorly educated feudal society and take on personas from the Hindu pantheon in public. It cuts to a deeper problem: if there are gods and the world is flawed and full of struggle and pain, the gods are most likely capricious, selfish, or outright detached and uncaring. In Zelazny's another immortality-themed work, the Amber saga, the royal families of Amber and Chaos, the opposing forces constituting a multiverse on an order-chaos spectrum, were passing immortality on their children, but they were also close to infertile. You could go that route, the opposing shards make it hard to produce babies together, maybe. I mean, Tertia underwent a lot of enslavements and doesn't mention being a baby factory at all, so maybe the IKs just couldn't? Anyway, definitely a hard no on a game end illustration of every harem member with a late pregnancy belly, heh.

Dark Art

Glad you've mentioned Nalili's situation. I think that part was very well written and even if succubi can get to the point of mental exhaustion and become almost suicidal, I dont even want to think what human would be like in Esthera's place. Lord of Light is an excellent book, but I am not sure it applies here thematically. I always questioned actual feasibility of that approach. It just seems unfeasible. I mean sure, they were pretty much megalomaniacs with all kinds of odd physiological and physical deviations, but I just cant see a stable human intentionally parenting a child and viewing it as a homo erectus at best. Let alone the main cast of TLS. As far as Amber goes... Well, Amber is just a fun, even if somewhat shallow, fairy tale, without much (if any) philosophical stance on anything.

sierralee

Yeah, a pure fetish version would be possible via sexual magic. Hmm, this might be something that a few of the characters might want to explore in a time of peace. Ascension could resolve the core logical problem, but it wouldn't mesh well with some of the stuff that isn't yet in the game. Players will have somewhat of a choice, but one of the core ending paths will take a different approach.

DukeLeto7

I've never really given serious consideration to the philosophical implications of immortality for the same reason that I don't worry much about the possibility of being mauled to death by a rabid dodo. I'm also one of those people that Nick Bostrom and CGP Grey caricature in the "Parable of the Dragon-Tyrant" as "Pro-Death", in that I think that so long as we live on a severely resource constrained planet, mortality is a positive good. (That's not the same thing as thinking we shouldn't do research to reverse aging, or that such research should not be prioritized compared to treating rare genetic diseases (a subtle metaphorical point in Bostrom's original version that gets ignored by CGP Grey), but I do think that prioritizing such research over everything else and shaming anyone who objects as an accessory to mass murder (which is pretty clearly CGP Grey's stance) is insane.) There are futurists I respect who say that practical biological immortality is closer than we'd think, but I'd remind them that the only thing evolution has primed us more to lie to ourselves about is "She would really like me if I tried to impress her harder!". BUT, this is all irrelevant to the question of mortal children of immortal parents. I also don't think this is worth serious philosophical consideration. Any practical method of achieving relative immortality in humans isn't going to be something that would need to be rationed. Note that I use the word "relative" owing to the fact that Tertia's right about nothing being forever in the long run. Anyway, I agree with your reasoning on mostly not touching the whole can of worms involved in pregnant immortals, although I have to wonder why (relative) immortality was part of the game story at all. You could have made incubus kings and goddesses incredibly long lived but ultimately mortal (like the Skeksis), and still hit the same story points about the nature of power. SIDE NOTE: You said to wait to talk about the Mestan/Bhakan assassination attempt dangling plot thread until after 0.51, but it wasn't clear if I should poke you again about it or if you'd put it on your list to deal with later. If not the former... too late!

sierralee

Yeah, you can't always count on Patreon emails. =/ Universal immortality isn't possible in the TLS universe, but I think that would be a moral conundrum. Even if we presume that a society that can attain such a thing is post-scarcity and that there would be the option for people to conclude their lives by choice, I wonder what that would do to a culture. But yes, I've aimed to strike a balance with TLS. It's ultimately a positive story, even utopian, but I try to make it feel earned.

sierralee

Thanks for the kind words! Yeah, the Greek and Roman gods are... not generally good examples of parents. I'm aiming to fashion a wholesome take on these topics. >another series that addresses this somewhat obliquely is the "Changer" series of novels, by Jane Lindskold. I thought it was handled really well in there. Hmm, this is one I haven't heard of. I'll look into it!

Ditto

Would be fun to see all the girls as mothers XD Greek Gods had plenty of children that were less then immortal and things went fine :P Besides people that like the Simon x Robin or Nalili x Esthera kink would probably not have problems with the Succubi questions however for those that don't well eh raise them right.

Taium

Can I at least hope for Yarra to prank Simon by going baby crazy for a patch? You know it'd be hilarious.

sierralee

Hey, didn't expect to see the dragon parable get brought up here. I'm with you on that overall: I think an accurate analogy would be significantly less charitable to the hypothetical dragon slayers. I'm not qualified enough to have a strong opinion on realistic immortality, but the skeptical biologists I've read seem compelling to my unprofessional eye. Biology is messy by nature. As for why immortality is in the story at all, if it hasn't been made clear yet, it still has more roles to play. Mestan/Bhakan: This is a decent time, but... I'll have to see when I feel like it. Anyway, be careful of those rabid dodos.

DukeLeto7

Perhaps in a few generations Simon can contrive to thin out the herd of his descendants by having one half of them hide in a large wooden badger to ambush the other half.

Enigma42

Been A fan since the ouroboros and crimsongray not for the gameplay but the stories ouroboros hit me the same way the first bioshock with the main character having his regenerative immortality and him never questioning the way things are but some things are questioned like why have items on sale that no one can afford or people that always seem to say the same thing that is when the mirror starts to crack. The Mirror that your companion always says is not there but you see a second path but can you take it no is always the answer but when you finally take it the mirror is broken your friends are there but they are doing the exact same thing and not even realize it and when you show them the broken mirror they wake up as well. I played ouroboros thinking it was a fantasy RPG but it is so much deeper than that it doesnt ask you the question of what has to be done I made you ask that question by taking everything you think you know and throwing out the window. The game when you finally know whats happening makes you think what actually makes a game not by doing the same as everyone one else but to make you see what you always do and throw it for a loop. For crimson gray the question of why we always have to do what other people tell us do to popped in when Lizzle showed up. I thought crimson gray was like other VNs of playing the story of boy wants to get girl but it wasn't it was a story of two lost ones trying to find a place to belong. The choices at first glance were the same in what they said but the meaning behind them is the first thing that comes to light you dont want to just get from A to B to get to the end result but why are you going from A to B. Crimson gray is not the normal boy gets girl setting but both girl and boy get each other to complete themselves not for love if that makes sense. In games like this pregnancy is usually brushed off as an end game reward or some minor mechanic that is the norm for that setting. Other games sometimes pull a character from the roster cause of child care or sometimes its a you win setting where the parents and child are a happy family just doing their thing. The whole immortality thing has not really been treated equaly in that department when it comes to children and immortality like the child gets to a set age then just stops ageing or the growth rate is faster so the parents can see them off if one of them is mortal. To me it seems that the fact that one parent is going to pass before the child trully grows up seems to be univerisally accepted. Some times the immortal parter finds a potion or magic item that gives the immortality but the mortal parent refuses cause of the feeling of my job is done or something like that. I may be selfish by saying that pregancy and the concepts included would be a good idea for the scenes yes I have a thing for pregnant scenes in this kind of game. If you do include it I am gonna say yeah go full throtte on it for the whole what happens when the child is born thing well we all played those kind of games before so the way you deal with it would be accepted. The immortality thing of when having a family like this well I can deal with it as the parents know that one of them may not see what the children become and that all things come to end. Basically I am going Rick Sanchez and just not thinking about it and just enjoy the ride. So Sierra Lee you do you I will support you and enjoy your work thank you for reading this if you do and sorry if some parts didn't make sense.

SantaTheHutt

Embracing the exploration of philosophical ideas - in a porn game of all places - is one of the many reasons why you're my favorite creator, Sierra. I eagerly anticipate the discovery, debate, and introspection about immortality and the divide between those who gain access to it, and those who are left behind. Personally, I think that children make the potential problems more poignant, but don't fundamentally change the nature of the problem. Someone who is immortal is going to see everyone they know and care about die, and be replaced with new people to know and care about, who then die, repeating ad infinitum. When those people are friends instead of parents/spouses/[nth-grand]children/other family, the pain is still real, and can be just as bad. Taking immortality out of the picture, parents choose to have children all the time, knowing those children will some day die. Certainly, prospective parents hope that their children will outlive them, but all that really does is force the burden of dealing with the death of a loved on on the children instead of taking it onto yourself - rather selfish in a way*. From that perspective, immortal parents can remove that burden from their children: you won't ever have to watch me die. * controversial personal opinion here; I am an antinatalist IRL. Feel free to disagree with me, I recognize that most people do.

Markus S.

My thoughts on immortality and the "next generation": I agree, it wouldn't make sense for them to have children which die before they do. And if they spawn some children every few decades and make them immortal as well the limited resources for immortality would deplete, also for obvious reasons this would lead for envious parties to attack them for these resources. An unlimited "happy life" would not be very realistic, unless they'd escape to the tower or similar different realm. However having read a few more stories about races with unlimited natural life length, in same stories the life isn't exactly unlimited, just not limited by a more or less finite amout of years. Like a human will eventually die between 100 and 130 years (with a healthy and happy life style, no traumas and without accidents or major diseases). The time limit is somewhat +/-20%. Then in those races the life span is usually ending when they have "fulfilled their purpose to live" instead of some number of years you can expect +/- a bit of error. I can see pretty much pototential after "making a better world" and sharing some fun and peaceful years in their harem for having a fulfilled life. It would kind of make sense at that point they'd choice to have 1 generation of offsprings and giving up their on immortality and transfer the responsibility of these resources onto the them. The natural way of life is always a cycle. The Simon and his lovely wifes I know would be unlike to break that natural cycle for eternity. However whether this point of progress is within the scope of the story told in TLS is another point. At some point you probably want to end the story. You could write a literally neverending story about this world. You could also consider putting the "epilogue" in a novel instead of trying to write some wall of text in this RPG Maker game. The only downside in that would be that you'd have to assume a "common ending" of choices made or deliberately try to avoid mentioning things which many players might have done differently.

Anonymous

Philosophical arguments aside (personally believe not having children because you would be certain to outlive them is dubious, with 'Story of Your Life' or it's adaptation Arrival being a rather poignant example of this) Simon and his harem are workaholics at the best of times and with potentially world altering stakes at play no one would have the capacity to be an anywhere near decent until the main plot has been resolved. As such i agree that outside of the current situation with Eustrin, having children doesn't really fit within the scope of the story. Maybe it is something that could be hinted at vaguely in an epilogue but i don't think it should be a big deal.

sierralee

Thanks for giving your thoughts! I think I understood what you were saying and I'm glad that my work could reach you in those ways. The timeline of TLS won't extend far enough to really deal with children, but it's something I might explore in future games.

sierralee

Yeah, I certainly didn't mean to say that the parent/child relationship is more important than other types of relationships. For me, the fundamental difference is between building a relationship you know will be temporary with people who already exist and creating a new relationship in the form of children.

sierralee

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Unless the player chooses differently, this story IS going in the immortality direction. I've tried to construct this in a way that I think feels natural, using a variety of elements, but I recognize that not everyone will agree. TLS will end with the resolution of the core plot that has been building all this time. Then, depending on player choices, there may be a post-game that lets you roam the world and see the results of your decisions. Beyond that, I actually do have plans to write a number of short stories based on various potential futures.

sierralee

Yeah, the characters definitely don't have time to be good parents at the moment. See my comment just above for my plans regarding epilogue material. I actually have strong feelings about Story of Your Life / Arrival, but I wasn't intending to get on a soapbox with this post.

Jeffrey Lebowski

I was a bit worried about the implications of Neranda's pregnancy and did notice the intentionality of character's not wanting kids throughout the game, with Uyae being the most clear example when Simon asserted that procreation was not the ultimate goal of sex. I'm not sure there *is* a clean way to handle that or many of the other problems that arise from the inherently inequitable dynamic of immortality and absolute authority. It's almost like some moral questions still exist because there is no right answer. I have no brilliant insights to navigate this ethical quagmire, but I did want to express my appreciation that you are considering all angles. One of the main things I have really admired about your work is the intention and thoughtfulness put into every word (On a related tangent, have I expressed how much it tickles me that every character has a distinctive laugh even in writing?). Keep up the good work, and I hope you stay well emotionally during this challenging time.

Anonymous

I wholeheartedly agree. Pregnancy as a concept to explore would be little more than a fetish for the most part in this game. That is not to say that exploring fetishes would be out of the question for this work but fetishes explored don't really get into being forced to deal with the importance of life. The idea of a legacy is important, and for a man who already has a daugther whom he adopted but didn't conceive it reflects greatly the qualities we have seen in him throughout the journey. Cautious, mindful, charitable and warm. Deciding to have a bunch of children in the situation they currently are would conflict with almost everything we have been lead to believe of this man. And that is without even thinking asbout the concept of inmortality thrown into the mix. We've seen examples of the reaction others have to inmortality in game and for those who have experienced it, specially Tertia, we ses a weariness and despondency caused by being forced to see others wither and die while not doing so yourself. If we know inmortality not to be inherited then just like you said, it can easily be seen as playing with life itself for the sake of pleasure and self-satisfaction. If anything it would make more sense for Simon to adopt more children or merely give a helping hand to communities from the background as he has been doing. Even if we assumed inmortality could be inherited then we open a whole other can of worms to deal with. An inmortal child born from former mortal parents is sure to have a lot of problems relating to anyone else from outside their own inner circle, adding to that, develomental problems born from being a complete anomaly without having chosen to be it for a reason, unlike our protagonists. Willful disregasrd for agency, free will and life itself is not something that would make sense for anyone in the usual cast. Megail is another good example of what I would expect from other characters who have matured and understand their own situation. Sponsoring and and giving love to others who might be lost otherwise. Some of the protagonists have shown a fondness for children but that doesn't necesarily translates to a wish to conceive a child. Not when one has the power to improve the lives of so many other children by their actions alone. I am glad to read your opinions on the matter and hope we can all reflect on the value of life regardless of our own preconceptions on the topic.

sierralee

Thanks! I don't mean TLS to be utopian in the purest sense, but I try to make the characters reflective enough that the happy ending will seem realistic. Once they reach the end, you'll see them considering questions of legacy as well.

Aris Katsaris

If you make the immortality transferable, I can imagine a few characters (Uyae, Altina, perhaps a couple others) eventually deciding to have a single child that they will plan to eventually transfer their immortality to, becoming mortals again.

Decanter

I look forward to seeing our companions' thoughts on the matter, especially if it leads Altina to some sort of magically augmented roleplay of her breeding slut fantasies instead of trying to have the real thing with its fraught implications. Also interested to see if Uyae has reconsidered her opinion of pregnancy's primacy in the purpose of sex (it seems obvious, but that doesn't mean she's consciously realized the change in her own mind). For that matter, I wonder if Simon has any deeper thoughts on ... sperm donation I guess. It seems unlikely he'll be involved much with the children, as that'd be suspicious.

Nathan Phoenix

As a family man myself I would like to see, or at least have reference to Simon raising children. Far to many stories have the father be a jackass or just end up dead. TLS bucks so many trends it would be a nice addition to the list. As for the succubi... I can understand leaving that up to the reader, though it would not be that shocking considering Esthera and Natili already have a scene together.

Decanter

He did raise Robin, and I think he and she would strongly object to any suggestion that she doesn't count.

Dark Art

On an unrelated topic - if there a reason why you are not using those half-body images of characters and stick only to "talking heads"? Since I am very happily unemployed and not so happily stuck indoors at the moment, I've decided to have another full run through the game and I cant help but wonder why not? I see that you've added some new and rather well done half-body images and it looks like they would add to immersion if used more reggularly. It seems like a waste of good art to show them only once during the introduction of a character and then abandon them completely

sierralee

I've considered a lot of different options for the characters' futures, but this actually wasn't one of them. Interesting concept, though that's putting a lot onto a child.

sierralee

Something like that should be in the cards for Altina, and Uyae has naturally been thinking on the subject. Simon isn't comfortable being completely absent, so he'll be an uncle to the young dwarves.

sierralee

What would you want them to be used for? If you mean having them used in regular conversation, I'm not sure I think that's a quality of life improvement over normal faces. I'm doing full busts for Once Ever After, and I hope it works there, but I think the way it makes the eye move is a step down.

Actual Personman

I'm not sure I've understood you correctly. Is this revulsion regarding immortals having mortal children just a feeling that you have, or is this a position that you hold? And, if so, could you elaborate a bit more on why you hold it?

sierralee

Well, given the lack of immortality in real life, this is a pure hypothetical. But yes, if we had immortals, I think their decision to have children would be at the least ethically questionable. I could get into my rationale, but it would flow directly into real life stuff that often inspires strong feelings, and I'd rather not open that box any further.

honorwolf01

i don't know how to put my response on paper. i have written and erased so many times and so many others have touched on points i would say.

WaxerRed

I think the root of the problem might not be the fact be immortals having mortal children, but rather immortals having children and actively CHOOSING to make them mortal instead of immortal. There is a limited number of goddess shards, but it's been shown that several entity of the tower have found ways to massively stretch out there own mortal lifespan. And if that's the case the ethics of Simon and Neranda watching there first child dying of old age and knowing they COULD save him would be...ethically jumbled at best. And this question isnt really solved by choosing not to have kids either. Simon has expressed wanting Orcent to live for a long while as well. So perhaps he finds a way to extend his life to immortal standards. Ocrent becomes immortal. But then what of Orcent's love Kara, of course it's be cruel to make Orcent outlive her. Kara becomes immortal. But what if Kara has a sister she hasn't mentioned before, and if she begs Simon hard enough can she have him make her immortal as well? So the sister becomes immortal. But what if the sister has a husband? The husband becomes immortal. What is the sister and husband have a child already? The child becomes immortal. What if the child has friend? What if the friend has his own parents? What if the parents each have six brothers and ten sisters? What if the six brothers and ten sisters have 3 children each? On and on it goes and someone at some point, is going to have to watch their friend/family age to death while they live immortal. Living eternally to have happy fucking really does have a sad side to it huh?

sierralee

You don't need to feel obligated to, but also feel free to express yourself without getting every word perfect.

sierralee

See my above comment to Actual Personman, but yeah, unless your scenario banishes death entirely, there's always going to be loss. Simon is ultimately going to have to make some difficult decisions on exactly those lines.

Quiet Stranger

The prospect of immortal children is something that will hit Esthera particularly hard. Discovering that she might have saved her daughters—if only she had been more ambitious—could destroy her. But following a similar pattern of thought, perhaps the idea that Esthera might have Nalili forever could be what it takes to banish her death wish. But I'm sure you already have a plan for the Empress, years in the making. And I'm sure it's as kinky as it is narratively satisfying.

Justice667

Wow, I've been gone for a long time and only recently returned. Never thought it would move in this direction. Obviously, I have no idea what has happened since I last played so I'm not going to be visiting the site again till I feel I have caught up.

Justice667

A side note: I personally have always hated the idea of immortality by conventional means. In a story I'm writing my main character dies and then discovers he is trapped into a cycle of possession/reincarnation. He becomes apart of the power he gains and that power is passed on to his heir. When the heir receives the power if they are compatible their souls merge and the power grows. If they aren't compatible the heir can only use some of the power and doesn't have access to the knowledge of those that were compatible.

Anonymous

I think you need to view Simon and his harem's view of children from a god and/or pantheon perspective. Humanity and all the species are their children in a way. Or at least they feel a certain responsibility for them. You can take the concept of D&D for instance and have certain harem members have minor influence spheres or interests, like Aka being a patron saint of assassins or something similar. If their power can grow a little beyond their immediate immortality benefit that is. Or maybe that is not even needed. Food for thought I'd say.

Secular Reason

I think... you're overthinking it. A few examples: 1. Immortals giving birth to mortal children is no different than gods creating mortal races to begin with. Sure, it'd be painful to the parents to watch those children die - but those children being mortal shouldn't make such an endeavor bad or worthless or otherwise negative. Just because your child won't live forever, doesn't mean you're doing it for emotional fulfillment either - no different than when Simon was mortal, his children could potentially impact their local societies. In fact, by NOT having children, they're asking for their values to be constantly seen as an outside force acting on a population rather than an organic one - the easiest way to ensure your values are propagated are to have children and instill those values within them, allowing them to do the same. Basically, them having children would only be different from typical mythologies in the real world by having the mortal races be *literal* children of the god(s) instead of having to be created specially. Looking at Esthera for example, what if her daughters that she had prior to Nalili weren't all disappointments? What if they'd lived up to their mother's legacy and changed the world? Do you honestly think she'd still have been just as tired as when she seems to have been when she talks about her decision to have Nalili with Simon? Or would she be a more fulfilled, and thus likely more ACTIVE Succubus Goddess, looking down on her children and their descendants with pride, interacting with her people because she still saw potential in them, instead of withering away waiting to die? 2. Immortality being difficult to obtain. - There's always another option. If a partner is just done, tired of living forever, they could have a child, raise it, then pass their Shard onto the child while they pass away. In this way, they could still have a "normal" family is the sense we're used to, just on a longer scale.

Seriathus

This does feel very dangerous, though. It'd be some form of extreme nepotism, where thanks to being born to the right parent, you'd get literal godlike power.

Retromancer

This may not be the right place to post this, but.. Has anyone else been having an issue with getting the music or sound to come up with the latest update? I started a new game after downloading it, then noticed I couldn't get the music working. Usually I have it turned of in my save files, so I deleted all of my old save files, quit the game and restarted - still no music. I'm not going to restart my computer until about 8 hours from now (morning for me) but any other ideas about what could be causing this?