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FIRST TIME WATCHING: The Last of Us S1E9!! (Patreon)

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2023-03-16 16:00:03
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It's finally time for the season finale! Such a tragic place to leave off. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts! Thanks for going on this journey with me y'all!

As always, thank you so much for your support and stay golden!

LINK: https://youtu.be/dgaCh9W-n_g 

Original Series: The Last of Us

*Copyright Disclaimer Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. Non-profit, educational or personal use tips the balance in favor of fair use. NO COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT INTENDED. All rights belong to their respective owners.

Comments

Anonymous

Joel did what he had to do for his daughter and they didn't get him another option. It is tragic, but the people who side with the child murderers are insane in my opinion lol

Darryl Low

Happy Thursday Nat. Here we are at the end of the road, well, for Part 1 anyway. Really looking forward to seeing what you made of the finale 😊 It's such an amazing and thought provoking way to end the story. I can still remember how I felt playing the game for the first time 10 years ago, and going through all the scenes - The giraffe, the tunnel (which they didn't use in the show), the hospital assault, the parking garage and then arriving at Tommy's place. They did a good job of putting it all together for this final episode. I really loved watching you experiencing it all for the first time Nat. Your reaction today was amazing. Thanks for going the extra mile and getting your video up for us this week Nat 💛

Simon Bauer

That was Ellie from the game in the beginning!!

dieselbeast

You see there was nothing to be scared of Mrs. natalie lol if anything there's gamers who were complaining there's not enough infected 🤦 It's perfect for what the creators set out to do 🙏

Baggie Mark

At least you can take your time to get over the emotional stress of the series now, before (if you decide to) you watch season 2 when it comes out.. Thanks for powering through this series as we all love your reactions as they are your real emotions for us all to see. 🥴🥹.. Also hope you are enjoying your travels this week...

RonJon

It's such a beautifully complex ending because nobody does the "right" thing, but they all do the thing that we expect them to do, the thing that makes sense for their character. What's important is that we understand all the choices made and their ramifications and I think that was done super well. Arguing who is right and who is wrong is a futile battle because the whole point is that everyone is doing bad things for their own reasons. The same way we saw with Henry and Sam. And the ending reverberating back to Maria telling Ellie "The only ones who can betray us are the ones we trust" while we watch Ellie lose her trust in Joel in real time. The fireflies don't give Ellie a choice, they want the cure and feel there is a real chance to heal the world here, and Marlene doesn't want to cause Ellie any fear or pain. Joel is obviously not going to let this happen. He can't lose another daughter, and would rather die trying than let them take her from him. As he said earlier in the episode, he finally found his reason to heal and go on. Joel doesn't give her a choice either though. He kills everyone involved and lies to her about what happened. He had the chance to give her a choice. In the parking garage Marlene had the jump on him and could have killed him, probably should have. But she tells Joel "What would she choose? ... It's not too late. We can still find a way" If Joel takes her up on this he could have ensured Ellie would have woken up and actually been able to know what is going on and talk with Marlene and Joel about it, but instead he kills Marlene and lies to her. Because he knows Marlene is right, that she would want to do it, and he can't let that happen, because he can't lose her. That is precisely what makes it so good, that Joel does this terrible thing that is hard to watch and very selfish, but it's also really hard to blame him for it. He doesn't really have any other option but to do it. Nobody gives Ellie her choice. Even Ellie knows he's lying, so his relationship with her will be forever changed because of it. (sorry for the rant I didn't realize how long this was)

K.N.

The beauty of the game and the show is that they do the work to develop the characters well enough that you understand exactly why they make the choices they do, even if you don't agree with them.

Anonymous
>>104202677

How would Joel have given her a choice? they said we are killing her right now, please leave. Like that's a now or never scenario.

Juliana Montenegro

Thank you for torturing yourself for our enjoyment ❤️ this was definitely a wild series.

RonJon
>>104202677

Marlene gives him another chance in the garage. She says to him "What would she choose? It's not too late, we can still find a way" She could have killed him. She is begging Joel to work with her on this. Ellie is waking up soon, if he takes her up on finding another way he can ensure that she is involved in the process. At least aware. But no, he shoots her dead in the garage and then lies about what happens. This is purely so that she doesn't have a choice, so that she doesn't know what the choice would have been, because he knows that Marlene is right, she would choose to do it and he won't be able to go on if she does.

Razor Bikini

Nobody knows yet whether season 2 will be worse since they’re telling the second game’s story over more than one season. Personally I much prefer the second game, but the structure of the plot is so integral to its exploration of its themes that I’m kinda worried they might mess it up in the show. No spoilers but the sequel reckons with the ramifications of this ending in fascinating and surprising ways so I hope you will continue to watch (assuming they do it justice).

Dante
>>104200618

The people who side with either side are insane in my opinion. Both sides were wrong. Joel for not telling Ellie the truth and murdering dozens of people and Marlene and the Fireflies for not giving Ellie the choice. That’s what makes the story great the decisions of both sides make perfect sense and are both equally reprehensible. I can understand and empathize with what each side did yet still disagree with both of them.

jamie jones
>>104202677

The doctor was already dead anyways. Also how can you let a child make such a decision? Plus if marlene shot joel theres a good chance shed have hit ellie. Despite what videos games make you believe, head shots aren’t very easy. Not everyone is a master marksman, thats why they train police to shoot for chest for kill shots, not the head

jamie jones

Team Joel all the way, they didn’t even know if the procedure would be successful. Also due to the doctors age, odds are the doctor has never performed such a surgery before as this type of surgery is a preapocalypse thing. And if the surgery went as planned, it still might not have led to any cure. Plus fuck humanity, save ellie 100%. And even if Ellie was given a choice, you cant let a child make such a decision.

SmokeAndACoffee

As someone who loves the art and appreciates great performance as she does, I think Nat won't be able to help herself from watching Season 2 just to see Pedro and Bella xD

Jeff K
>>104204260

Wait, have they said that they're spreading game two out over two seasons? I missed that if so. Obviously, there's a lot of content to be mined from that game (you know what I mean, but I won't spoil it for those unfamiliar with the story of game two) so I would be fine with that. And as you said, the structure is integral, but I think it's also why it could so easily be stretched out over two seasons. Especially since Druckmann hasn't said definitively, as far as I'm aware, when or if a third game will be coming along, so for now the second game is the only other existing content to build from for the show.

LightsCameraJake

The writers and producers of the show know what they are doing, because they are the same people who worked on the game. I have no doubt that season 2 might even be better than this one. Much like season 1, there will be changes from the game to make more sense from a cinema perspective vs a gaming one. Pretty much every change made in the show was way better than the game could ever do. This is some of the best TV since the first 6 seasons of game of thrones 👌

Logan Kerlee

Holy crap Natalie!! This season was a blast to watch. I really enjoyed your reactions. I'm subscribed to three other people on Patreon, all of them are watching this. I've mainly watched your reactions. They've been the most entertaining. If you decide to not watch season 2, I'll be super disappointed! Wow, though.. this one was emotional! Really enjoyed the show, though. I have not played the games but am now considering picking them up. I think that it will be a good bit of fun. :)

Razor Bikini
>>104204260

Yeah I think it was either right after or right before the finale that they confirmed it would be “more than one season” but explicitly did not confirm that it would be 2 seasons.

Bob Hanflig

If the music was different when Joel was taking out the Fireflies, he would have been seen as a hero.

Berry

Joel did the right thing, fuck the Fireflies. It's not as if a cure would have solved everyone's problems. It won't undo societal collapse. There would still be raiders and other shitty people and you'd still need to hunt down the infected. It just would have made life easier for the happy few to receive the cure. It sucks that he lied to Ellie about it though.

Byron

There’s speculation (baseless but who knows) that season 2 might actually cover events prior to the game sequel (since there’s a huge time jump). Since the creator of the game is involved, that’s a distinct possibility. I’m glad to have watched it with you and I’m glad that the show got a little easier to watch. This is another top notch series in my opinion, like Hill House. Now, how about a hat trick with the Expanse?

Anonymous

Ellie would've sacrificed her-self for the cure, we all know that. Both Marlene and Joel were wrong for not letting her decide. Marlene then tells Joel that is not late yet, they can find a way, but instead of letting Ellie wake-up and make her decision, Joel shoots Marlene and lies to Ellie about what happened at the hospital knowing well what she would've wanted to do... I'm in no one's side. They could've done way better💀

Robert C

I've really enjoyed going on this journey with you, but if you do watch Season 2, just know what you're getting into. I won't get into any specifics, but I'm someone who loved the first game (and played it multiple times) and this first season of the show. I also played the second game and I think it's a masterpiece and might be better than the first. But as soon as it was over I knew that I would never play it again and I'm genuinely not sure if I'll watch the series. I mean, I probably will, but I might not. It is really rough. I've never played a game like this where I wanted it to be over more. And that's not a criticism. It takes a powerful story for me to feel something that deeply. All that said, the pain of Part II does seem to be more in line with the kind that you're more comfortable handling (more in keeping with this last episode, where a lot of the heartbreak just comes from watching Joel make these (bad?) decisions and less the earlier stuff that really wrecked you). So I'm not telling you not to watch it. I'd probably enjoy watching it with you. But just be prepared.

Robert C
>>104204260

I'm pretty sure that they've confirmed that it's going to be multiple seasons, but they haven't narrowed it down to just 2. There's a lot of work they're going to have to do to figure out the structure because I don't think it can work exactly like it did in the game.

Jeff K

Bella Ramsey, first of all, is just so good. But also, she has such an infectious laugh. Makes the giraffe scene that much more heartwarming.

jamie jones
>>104207630

How do you know the procedure wouldve been successful and lead to a cure? The doctor looked 50, so he wouldve been a resident when the apocalypse occurred, he most likely never even performed such a surgery before.

Emilie Mish

Yours has been one of my favorite reactions so far to this finale because how you understood what happened was not black and white. You empathized with everyone. I really REALLY hope you continue to watch this show when it returns even though this story is so emotional and devastating. Your reactions are just so good - truthful and empathetic.

Anonymous
>>104207630

That's absolutely not the point here. The point is letting Ellie decide. Not if the surgery would've been successful or not.

Bblack 118

Thanks for sticking through it! It really is a dark.. sad story.. because its a dark.. sad... world. TLOU2 doesn't shy away from that at all. If anything, it gets worse. But still an epic tale. Its meant to make you feel uncomfortable.. and not know if you side with Joel or the fireflies.. The tragic music playing while Joel "rescued" Ellie was perfect. He was condemning the world to save his own world. I'm surprised I haven't seen this info yet in another comment (but maybe its somewhere), Anna, from the intro to this episode was the Mo-Cap and voice actress for Ellie in the games. So the woman who literally brought Ellie to life for the games, played her mother in the show. Beauitful tribute. I appreciated (as a gamer) all the characters in the show that were from the game. Marlene was the same woman, Joel was Davids right hand man, Tommy was Kathleens right hand man (contractor beard dude), and one of the nurses at the end was a secret cameo who was a main character in Part 2. Amazing game. Amazing show. Thanks for watching with us!

Edwin

Glad someone mentioned the dude didn't cover the baby's ears!

Jayson Phillips

Probably won't come out for a couple years tho

jamie jones
>>104208991

Technically we didnt see him and the baby during the gun shot, so maybe he did

Caomhan84
>>104205472

I've been Team Joel for 10 years. It's a complicated issue and I appreciate that they made it a complicated issue from the start, but to me there's no question in my mind that you have no choice but to save her. Lying to her is another issue. I don't support that. But there are many reasons why he was correct in doing what he did at the hospital. I say this with full knowledge of what's coming as well. But that doesn't change anything to me. Yes, Joel lied to her about what he did. Marlene lied to her about the procedure being fatal. Marlene and the Fireflies have also spent years lying about vaccines and cures that have never worked, so what's to say that this one would have worked? They didn't know. You had to save her. And to prevent them following you to Jackson, you had to eliminate them. Also Marlene, who can't even get a car battery in Boston or organize a appropriate personnel transfer that actually works, is supposed to successfully develop and manage a logistics network to distribute a cure/ vaccine worldwide assuming it is developed? Yeah...no. 😂

Caomhan84
>>104206379

Whoa there, calm down. Every change was better? Are you serious? First, we didn't hear anything about the tendrils and the fungal communication system at all after episode 2. That was a change that was completely dropped. Episode 3 with Bill and Frank was a beautiful story but... as the longest episode of the season, It took running time away from other episodes that could have used the running time, such as this one for instance. Episodes 4 and 5, the character of Kathleen was completely pointless to the story. She was not needed. Introduce Henry and Sam earlier in episode 4 and you can have a cliffhanger at the end of episode 4. Same as the game, and you can have more character moments with Henry and Sam by the end of episode 5 and the impact of episode 5 is not lessened at all. Plus we would have gotten more infected, and the suspense of Sam and Ellie switched with Joel and Henry. Episode 6... Are you really going to tell me that deleting the university fight in favor of just four randos was better than what the game had? That was a money saving nove, and really poor in my opinion. Episodes 7 and 8. I don't have many problems with. But episode 9, by deleting the gameplay portion before they reach the hospital, and Joel trying to save Ellie's life when she nearly drowns, it undercuts his desperation as well as his sense of betrayal when the fireflies planned to kill her. So.... Come on now. It was a good show but they made many mistakes. This was a reported $12 million per episode show. And now at the end of it, I'm forced to wonder where all the money went. Because they got increasingly sloppy as the season went on. Every change they made they didn't follow up on it. It was really weird.

RonJon
>>104202677

Because it is her life, her immunity, and her choice to make. Joel has no right to take that away from her and lie about it, in the same way that the fireflies had no right to do the operation without telling her. Marlene had every chance to take him out his entire chest was exposed at point blank range, headshot not necessary.

Jeff K

Apparently Ashley Johnson (who played Ellie in the game, and played her mom here) offered up her take on what Ellie means when she says "OK" at the end. Her interpretation is that when Ellie is saying "OK" she's not saying "I believe you." She's saying "So this is how you want to play it. Our bond is now broken." It's an interesting take, and rewatching the scene, I think you can definitely read a little of that on Bella's face.

jamie jones
>>104206379

Bud, all the changes were better than the game. Also one episode being long doesnt mean it takes time from another episode, they aren’t given an overall time limit for the entire show.

RonJon
>>104207630

Because arguing about the scientific possibility of the ability to create a cure is clearly not the point and undermines the entire purpose of the moral dilemma that the writers have intended for the ending. The ending is meant to be a trolley-problem-esque moral discussion about saving the one you care about vs the others that you don't. Brushing that off as "the cure probably wouldn't even work" is just skirting around the problem and undermines the whole point for no real benefit. Also, as a medical professional, residents are still doctors. Residents and even interns perform surgeries all the time in the modern world, but again, that is not the point.

jamie jones
>>104207630

Everything needs to be considered to agree with a perspective, including whether the procedure would be successful. Seems all these doctors disagree with you ronjon https://time.com/6263398/the-last-of-us-finale-medical-ethics/

RonJon
>>104207630

Like I said, I was just clarifying that residents do surgery, they must be supervised, but it is completely besides the point. That has no bearing on my point that the medical efficacy of creating the vaccine is completely besides the entire meaning of the ending and is just an attempt at undermining the moral dilemma that has been set up here.

Anonymous
>>104207630

I notice in a lot of apocalypse stories every random doctor just seems to know how to do everything. reminds me of the people that complained about the doctors in House M.D doing everything but even House couldn't create his own Vicodin. I'm of full belief he was operating on hope. hope that he could perform the surgery, hope that he could make a cure, and hope that his theory was right to begin with.

RonJon
>>104202677

I am looking at the frame right now and everything from his lower pecs up on both sides is completely uncovered by Ellie, and on the right side basically his entire abdomen and chest is clear, and she is at a couple feet maximum from him. If she wanted to she could have killed him multiple times. She surrenders to him and puts her weapon up because she wants to work with him. There's no reason to try to undermine her decision to give him a second chance here. That's the whole purpose of the garage scene, to give Joel one last chance to do what Ellie would have wanted, that's why Marlene specifically points out that he knows what she wants. This scene exists to show that Joel had a choice and he chose himself over her wishes.

jamie jones
>>104207630

How is that not apart of the moral dilemma, them killing ellie for an experiment that may not work

Caomhan84
>>104206379

I gave point by point support for my position. You need to do at least that, or at least refute the points that I made, if you want to convince me that every change they made was better. Early on in the show, I was ready to say that the whole tendril thing was a brilliant change that they made. And then they dropped it. We never heard it again. It never comes up again in the show. And then the utter pointlessness of Kathleen, who was created for the show and took away from the storyline of Sam and Henry. Her presence in the show was not only not needed, it weakened the show. I could go on but I'm not going to convince you. You have your opinion, I have mine. But at least I have enumerated mine.

RonJon
>>104207630

Because the moral dilemma is saving the one person you care about at the expense of the other people you don't care about on Joel's end, vs purposefully ending one life for the betterment of many on the fireflies side. Both have very strong arguments and can be debated endlessly. Saying that those people you don't care about would all die anyways because it wouldn't even work completely undermines the entire purpose just to make the fireflies side futile and give Joel an out for no reason. Debating the efficacy of the cure is pointless and undermining because this is a fake world with fake science trying to cure a disease that does not exist in humans. What matters is that we know the fireflies believe it is possible and Ellie would want to do it, so creating an argument out of nowhere based on the fireflies being wrong in their fake science is besides the point, because even if Joel knew 100% that it would definitely work he would still have done the same thing. The argument means nothing.

Anonymous

Really glad you finished this series. You had been my favorite reactor for movies and shows. You react in a way a normal person would when no one's watching you and I love that because I can relate to it when I watch shows and movies on my own. This game is number 2 for me when it comes to story-driven games. The Sam and Henry scene had me shocked too the most when playing. Wish you'll watch season 2 when it comes out. I'd definitely be one of the first to join you in your journey. And it'd also be great if you could react to the game version of the heavy scenes like with sam and henry on your youtube channel.

Dante
>>104205472

Arguing about whether or not the cure would have actually worked is pointless and defeats the purpose of the ending. The point isn’t whether or not the cure could have worked the point is the Fireflies, the doctors, Ellie, even Joel BELIEVED that it was going to work. Joel said as much himself to Ellie. “Marlene’s a lot of things but she’s no fool. If she says they can do it they can do it”. Joel didn’t save Ellie because he thought she might die for nothing. He saved her because he valued her more than a cure for the entire world.

jamie jones
>>104207630

Even if the science was sound, its still an experiment that may or may not work and that has to be taken into account. You don't get to ignore aspects of the situation because you simply prefer to focus on others. The fact it may not even work shows the real moral ambiguity of the fireflys. You can dump your head in the sand all you want but that is a real aspect of the situation. No one is saying theyd all die anyways and it gives joel an out, whats being said is they dont actually know yet are still willing to sacrifice ellie based on their hope. That is an integral part of the situation.

Dante

A lot of people like to say “The cure probably wouldn’t even work so they would have killed Ellie for nothing” to justify Joel’s actions. That is a pointless argument and defeats the purpose of the ending. The point isn’t whether or not the cure could have worked the point is the Fireflies, the doctors, Ellie, even Joel all BELIEVED that it was going to work. Joel said as much himself to Ellie. “Marlene’s a lot of things but she’s no fool. If she says they can do it they can do it”. Joel didn’t save Ellie because he thought she might die for nothing. He saved her because he valued her more than he valued creating a cure for the entire world. We can argue about the efficacy of the cure all day long but the whole point is that neither side made the right decision they were both wrong. Joel for lying to Ellie and murdering dozens of people and Marlene and the Fireflies for not giving Ellie a choice. But the beauty is both decisions make sense.

Arronax06

One thing to remember is that Ellie is 14, maybe I'm wrong, but I wouldn't let a kid that young decide if she should give up her life. I'd wait a few years, then ask her. But the Fireflies rushed this...

Kate Herzig
>>104207630

While I'm sure Ellie would have agreed, she also wasn't prepared for death being the only outcome. She was planning on following Joel anywhere. She wanted a future. I don't agree with how Joel handled any of it, but Marlene bypassing Ellie's choice is maybe one of the most despicable things we've seen someone do. She wouldn't risk Ellie A 14 YEAR OLD CHILD choosing to live. The 14 year old child of her best friend. She says she had no choice and then acts superior to Joel, who also feels like the has no choice. It's NEITHER of theirs to make, but for Marlene to say she's the only person to understand Joel's pain is wildly untrue. She doesn't know Ellie. She hasn't just spent a year protecting and loving this kid. She has no idea who Ellie really is. She can't possibly know what Joel's going through. On any level. And while I don't love murder, Joel was right to get her out of there. What comes next is where he's wrong. The lying is problem and it's going to be a chasm too large to recover from, but I guess from his perspective he'd rather have her be angry with him than be dead. The trolley problem. What a wild dilemma. It's always easy to say you're going to save the many, but that's what makes us humans. If it's aimed at the one person we love most, we're not saving the many and that's what I love about the game and show. It's honest and that's a hard reality to live with.

jamie jones
>>104214823

“Marlene’s a lot of things but she’s no fool. If she says they can do it they can do it” That quote was just joel comforting ellie. Nothing more. You have no idea if they believed it would work, they hoped it would work. Its true joel saved her cause he values her over everyone else. But sacrificing ellie for an experiment is still a part of the situation, whether you like it or not.

Dante
>>104214823

As I said, we can argue about it all we want. It’s not the point of the story and never has been. But I guarantee you the doctors and Fireflies believed that it would work.

jamie jones
>>104205472

You really hang on the that marlene quote joel said to ellie. That was him comforting ellie, nothing more. They all hoped it would work, they didn’t know. You cant pretend aspects of the situation don't exist. Part of the moral ambiguity of the fireflys is them sacrificing a child for an experiment that may or may not work, and joel not giving a fuck and just wanting to save ellie.

jamie jones
>>104214823

But joel didnt, even after he saw ellies immunity he still expressed doubt about a cure or vaccine in episode 2. The doctor and fireflys belief was based on hope. Yeah the main dilemma is joel choosing ellie over humanity. Buts its not so cut and dry and there are many aspects to the situation

Dante
>>104214823

Personally, I do believe Joel thought the cure would work by the time they got to the hospital and many other fans do as well. Yeah Joel expressed doubt about a cure in episode 2 but he also still believed Ellie would turn eventually in episode 2. Of course there’s nothing to confirm either way so there’s no problem if you think he didn’t think it would work. I just think by the time they got there with everything they’ve been through and with Joel actually believing Ellie’s immunity is real and then the explanation from Marlene I think if you asked him he would say “It probably would have worked but I would have never let Ellie die”. It’s a testament to the quality of the story that it sparks so much discussion and different interpretations all with their own validity.

Slick447
>>104214823

You sure? During that tear-jerker of a scene between Joel and Tommy, he sure seemed to believe. He believed enough that he was willing to send Tommy and Ellie on forward to complete the mission.

Anonymous
>>104215065

she is not like kids in our world. shes seen and done shit worse than most of us. she didnn't want it to be for nothing, and joel couldn't let go of her. its why this is the best storytelling ever

Anonymous

Fun fact, giraffe was real, well people end animal ware only real thing, rest was green screen.

jamie jones
>>104214823

I took that as more joel believing he couldnt protect ellie and she would die with him, not his belief in a cure. I think he mentioned the cure to convince tommy whos about to be a father

jamie jones
>>104215065

The fact it sparks such a discussion is a testament to the strength of the story. Ellie has done things no child should have to, but shes also traumatized by it. Just look at her demeanour after the david situation

Ariana Mitchell

neil, the game creator, did a survey for the people who play tested the game. he asked them whether they agree with joel or marlene in the end. people without children were split 50/50 and people with children were 100% on joel's side. i don't know i thought that was fascinating as someone who sees both sides

Maddie
>>104214823

Joel did not believe that they could create a cure, he even said so in the first or second episode. Anything he said to Ellie was just to comfort her, just like how he would tell her that raiders wouldn't find them in the woods, then stay up all night just in case. It's also just common sense that a fungus cure, created by doctors that have not practiced in 2 decades, if at all, distributed by what is considered a terrorist organization 20 years into an apocalypse would not work. I agree that Joel probably wasn't thinking about that, and that he made his decision purely for selfish reasons. but, it is still a valid argument that he did not deny the world of a cure, he just denied Ellie of her own purpose.

Dante
>>104214823

I mean you cannot say with certainty that Joel did not deny the world of a cure so that’s just a pointless argument to make. The science behind it really isn’t that complex or difficult especially considering they didn’t have to ensure Ellie survived the procedure.

Rime Pendragon
>>104205472

If you are talking about "Team Joel" or "Team Marlene" your opinion is already invalid to me. The only person who matters in this case is Ellie.

Mike Hell

I honestly still can't believe they succeeded in translating the spirit of the game to television. It was almost perfect. So anyway, the game is available on PC in a few weeks, you starting that up right away, or gonna wait until the summer or something ;)

Anonymous
>>104214823

I think there are two conversations here. What would WE do in Joel's position, and what Joel did. If we are talking about putting ourselves in his place, you can use any argument you want. whether or not it would have worked, how effective it would be, etc. But personally, I think if your talking about what Joel did, he prioritized Ellie over the planet. His face was in shock and looked like pure disassociation. He wasn't calculating the odds. He was terrified. And he did what most parents would do; use every tool you have to protect your baby girl. At any cost.

Peter Moe
>>104202677

Yea I forgot we let kids end their lives at 14 because its their lives their choice. Screw legal guardians and care takers. let the suicidal teen make her own call. It's not like the show covered the importance of living and and finding a new cause to fight for or anything 😂 But you know, Joel really should have told her everything, let that weight cripple her until she probably ended it all in guilt. How dare he try and absolve those feelings so she could continue to have a full happy life. Better to be scared and alone with nowhere to go right? 😅 OR! The fireflies kidnapped Joels adopted child, told him they were going to kill her for what they hope will be their salvation, and he killed said kidnappers, rescuing his adopted child, and shielded her young developing mind from facts she was too young to fully understand herself. Letting her live, Laugh, love into adulthood. Not even fully touching on the matter that this is 20 years after the outbreak and the likelihood the surgery would have worked. (or that two surgeons capable of such exist if your talking about marine in the garage) Maybe there is a better way to frame it. Since we dont morally let depressed 14 year olds end their lives, lets remove her choice from this. If the fireflies asked Joel to sacrifice Ellie for their cause, and Joel said No. causing the fireflies to take her by force. Would THAT better align with your morals for him to completely murder every single one of those insane fanatics? Now maybe he could have been honest about it, but at that point I think he made a judgment call as her parent to protect her from the situation entirely. lastly I will submit a question. would you let someone kill your child without your permission, based on a chance you yourself dont believe in. Or would you drop every body you could to try and protect them from such harm.. it's all rhetorical, but feel free to answer if you like. either way, its definitely a fun thought experiment, and appreciate your passion in engaging in the discussion about it.

Anonymous

What I love about this story, is how I agree with everyone. If I am the fireflies; We're making that cure. Consent is vital in a world that spins on, but this planet dies without a cure. Ellie can't possibly be in charge of this decision. And asking her, risking her saying no, then having to do it anyways, just gives her trauma in her last moments. 100% Do the surgery. If I am Joel; How dare you? What kind of monster kills a child for a vague chance at a cure. How dare you take her away and not even give her the chance to choose, A chance to say goodbye. 100% I'm fighting for her. If she finds out what I did though, she leaves me. I cant do that. I cant go back to being alone. I cant. If I'm Ellie; I'm pissed at both of them. How dare BOTH of you take this choice away from me? Amazing story.

Paul Spacone
>>104205472

Spot on analysis. If they were involved in synthesizing a cure from her blood through analysis, and trial and error that would be a completely different story. The hubris to think a cure could be derived the first time, while lobotomizing a healthy child is reckless, stupid and evil.

Guillermo Antonio Ricci Alvarez

Season 2 is not all darker but it has some points that I think you might quit the entire show as you reach them...also not sure how they will hande the second game as there might be more changes and even more than 1 season about that game

Richard Maurer
>>104205472

Their "cure" is more desperation than science - no testing, no evidence, no proof. Not something I'd give up a loved one for, that's for sure.

Richard Maurer
>>104206894

But that's the point, he's not supposed to be seen as a hero. The moral ambiguity for both sides is what's important here.

Myoclonic Jerk
>>104210510

Came for this; leaving satisfied. She won't be heartbroken when she finds out. She already knows.

Richard Maurer

Even if Marlene told Ellie the truth and if Ellie had said no, does anyone really believe they would have just let her go? Marlene didn't tell her because if she said no they would have had to force her anyway. So Marlene didn't tell her so she wouldn't have to deal with the fallout if she did say no, which makes her a coward. While neither did the right thing in lying to her, at least Joel's reason to lie was at least partly to protect Ellie, So all things considered I think Joel was much closer to being "right" in this moral dilemma.

MJ Eid

The moment u realize joel isnt a hero.

Ryan

Thanks for riding this train until its completion Nat, I know this one hurt you a lot. But your reactions and insight have been as always an absolute pleasure. What ever you decide to do with Part II I’ll be ok with it, I’m just glad we got to see you experience Part I. Joel did nothing wrong until he lied to Ellie.

Jeff E

As one of your Golden Nuggets and a huge fan of your content, I've watched nearly all of ur videos. I can confidently say that you would 100% be able to handle Season 2. It's actually considerably different, despite the carryover of protagonists and themes from S1. The emotional rhythm is very different in Part II of the games in a way that will be more palatable for you, IMO. It is NOT like the early part of S1, which was as emotionally treacherous as it gets for people who didn't know the story. This season, the non-gamer audience met and fell in love with one or more characters EVERY EPISODE only to be forced to watch them die tragically (and often horrifically) by the end of the episode. Part II expands the world and story of The Last of Us EXPONENTIALLY, which includes a significantly larger cast of characters. There are more characters, and different perspectives, that you get to follow the entire season instead of everybody just dying constantly. Please don't let haters, cryptic comments and/or people who think it's funny to try to emotionally manipulate you into doing something one way or another make this decision for you. As a Patron, I'd love to watch S2 with you, but I won't be a hypocrite by begging you to watch it. I'll only say that I hope YOU make YOUR OWN DECISION, either way.

Shawn E Mercado

I guess maybe too late for this suggestion but for HBO max shows couldn't you put the timer as counting down to the end? Then the varying ad length shouldn't matter right? That is how HBO max shows it anyway on the timeline

Ben Wheeler

This may have been mentioned already, and correct me if I'm wrong), but the actress who played Ellie's mom (and Ellie in the game) also had a hidden cameo as one of the nurses.

Anonymous
>>104230633

Almost. The actress who played Ellie's mom in this episode was the voice actor for Ellie in the game (Ashley Johnson), while one of the nurses (the one further back) was played by an actress who voices an important spoiler character in the second game.

John

What always bothered me about the game was the urgency for the Fireflies to immeidately kill Ellie and cut out her brain. The pandemic has been going on for 20 years - what's the rush? I get it from a story persepctive. They had to drive the plot and make it a desperate situation, but it seemed to ridiculous to me it makes me view the Fireflies as incompetent. Nobody was a hero in this. But in Joel's situation, I would have done the same thing.

Anonymous

The next season isn't going to follow the 2nd game. They're spreading it out over several seasons. I believe it is going to focus on the time between the two games. There is something devastating that happens in the 2nd game, which divided the fan base. They've acknowledged that and said they wouldn't do it. At least for a few seasons.

Jordan LeDoux
>>104210510

Bella's take was interesting as well. She said that Ellie knows that Joel is lying, but she wants to believe the lie instead of face the truth, and "OK" is the moment she decides to convince herself of the lie.

Jeff K
>>104210510

That’s definitely interesting. And since Druckmann and Mazin have said there will be changes from game two, obviously either could be correct.

Erik Stevenson

Great reaction as always, Nat. Absolutely loved this season and hope you do find your way towards watching season 2 when it comes out.

kikoyito

I think everyone's discussed the moral dilemma of the last ep pretty well so I won't comment on it. The show was a phenomenal adaptation and better than anything I could've hoped for. I'd like to mention some nitpicky things now. I think your statement that the last 2 eps were more manageable is due to some directing changes from the game. You play as badass, zombie/FEDRA/human killing Joel in the game. He's a bit more grouchy and takes longer to open up to Ellie. Since the show wanted to focus on the drama, it made sense for him to be more emotionally vulnerable and open up to Ellie earlier. While a great adaptation of Joel as a character, I think it takes away some of the emotional impact of ep 8. In the game, Joel was not seen again during winter until he woke up and interrogated those guys. You start playing as Ellie, and it creates an extremely tense situation where Ellie seems like she's alone, made us believe Joel was dead, and there was nothing to protect her from David. That tension, culminating into her murder of David, and Joel's "baby girl" (first time he's truly opened up to Ellie in the game) made that scene so much more powerful than the show. I think if they omitted all Joel scenes from the moment he dropped off the horse, until that point it would have been more impactful. For ep 9, I actually feel that the hospital scene could have been rewritten a bit. It felt a bit rushed without the gameplay to pad for time, so stalling some time so we the audience are questioning "what is happening with Ellie" would have made for a more tense scene. And for a last example, in the final scene of the ep, Joel touches his watch when saying "you have to find something to fight for." That small act was omitted which was a bit disappointing, was looking forward to it all episode haha. They were so faithful to the game, but I wish there were a few more things they left unchanged. The additions/changes to the early episodes were fucking amazing, but its these small things that really make the payoff for "Winter" and "Spring" so so impactful. But nonetheless, amazing adaptation and performance by everyone. It really was done with a lot of care and love. Hope to see you watch s2 Nat!

Daniel McGuinness

Yeah this is THE ending, probably like 80% of why this game has been talked about for so long is the moral dilemma here, and it’s STILL interesting to talk about Like yes, objectively, Joel made the wrong decision for humanity as a whole and killed a ton of innocent people to save someone he loved (I was kind of on the fence about how they changed the tone of that sequence from the game to show, he felt much more ruthless Terminator here but I kinda get it to make it seem like more of a struggle to root for him). Something I love too is how he believes this is his moment to save her. After his speech to Tommy about constantly failing to “save her” (Ellie/Sarah) and trying not to care about Ellie, this is his moment to be the hero and save her life - by killing humanity’s chance at a cure. In a way, Joel was right to be scared to let her in 😅 And it’s definitely heavily implied that Ellie knows that Joel is lying, and I think she’s just choosing to go along with it to make them both happy, but you can definitely see the strain it puts on their relationship going forward. But the worst part is you can definitely see where Joel is coming from and why he did what he did. Was it selfish? Yes. But people are selfish, especially when it comes to their loved ones and it’s hard to hate them for it. Like you said, if you were in the same situation you’d probably try your hardest to save someone you love too 👀 Great show and great reactions, Nat. Excited to see if you get to season 2 😂

Tay Schumaker
>>104232788

What are you talking about? They've said none of that. Druckman came out and said he doesn't care about the negative backlash and Mazin is clearly concerned with doing a faithful adaptation. Also they've never said they were doing the time between games. They said it would take more than one season to adapt the second game.

Patrick Reynolds
>>104202677

Peter, you might be or are a great court room lawyer. You convinced me, Joel did what he had to do. Ellie, as a minor. has no choice in this. With that said, it's a big picture choice for the Fireflies. They are fighting for humanity. The risk of killing one little girl, for the chance of a cure to save the lives of many thousands of little girls and boys. Big picture, Marlene had a tough decision, but her heart got in the way of the most rational one for a person leading the fight to save humanity. She should have killed Joel on the spot and risked the surgery on Ellie. That was a choice a military leader, a President, would make and should make. Whatever happens in the next season, I hope Ellie comes to forgive Joel for lying to her. If this series ends with her hating him, at humanities end, it would be a statement by the writers that in the end, the last of us, would all be for nothing.

Anonymous

Gotta say, that very sad intro conducting was the third time I laughed this week. Thanks for that, hope you're having a safe trip back!

Sav Miller
>>104232692

They talk about how fireflies are nearly losing the war against FEDRA and they do basically cease to exist after losing Ellie. So in my mind, this isn’t just about the cure for them. It’s about having an advantage in the war and a chance to “reestablish democracy”… it’s still totally morally wrong that they rushed into doing this without any informed consent.

Barbie Pootsky
>>104205472

Well, there's also the point where Marlene explains what's going to happen and Joel says "Find someone else." He was fine sacrificing someone else, just not Ellie. Joel acted emotionally, not rationally, which is how we should view this discussion. Logically, yeah, the Fireflies might not have made a cure and might not have been able to spread it out to create actual change, but just one look at Joel's face while he's being escorted tells you that he was not thinking of any of that. Even if it was a 100% guarantee that Cordyceps would be eradicated and life could go back to normal, he would have done the same thing

Keith Jacobsen

Thanks for going on this journey with us, Nat. Obviously it took an emotional toll on you. The ending is a classic gray area. Was Joel right or wrong? How would Ellie choose if given a choice? Is one innocent life worth all of humanity? All I can say is the original video game was excellent and this is probably one of the best video game to tv/film adaptations ever.

Anonymous

"Be careful who you put your faith in, the only people who can betray us are the ones we trust" My favorite show-exclusive line from Maria in 1x6. I agree that Joel was wrong, but I have hope the choice to use her immunity for humanity will come now that she has the chance to live. Anna's scene is also show-exclusive, but very important to show that Marlene is a foil to Joel in the sense that she cared for Ellie just as much (even if we didn't see it), but she already made the choice to kill someone she knew her entire life. We've been shown that, unlike Joel, she had the will to sacrifice Ellie for a greater good that she lived her life fighting for in the Fireflies (opposite to Joel's disdain for their fight). But also, the urgency when they could have just let some time for Joel and Ellie to make that decision together... not to mention suboptimal conditions for BRAIN surgery (which you thankfully noted)? It may be that Joel's decision will not be for nothing, I hold on to hope :)

Kev Martin
>>104224934

Showrunners have confirmed there will be more than one season for the 2nd game.

Psychotic Panda

I am team Joel tbh.. its not worth the risk. What if Ellie died and the cure didn't even work? it was never guarantied to work. Worst part is they never even gave the kid a choice, not saying what Joel did was good but between the 2 choices I agree with Joel.

Walter Lopez

Natalie, please add BARRY on a poll. It's a must watch! Anyway, The Last of Us Hbo was a perfect adaptation. I was expecting more mushroom people to pop up but that's okay. I didn't hate The Last of Us 2 like everyone else did but It was definitely very sad so Season 2 is gonna be FUN. I can't wait for the rest of the world to experience depression. 👍😅👍

Marty McGee
>>104232692

I also think Marlene knew Joel was going to be a problem. She's smart enough to realize that even someone like him would form a bond with Ellie after so many months and the things they probably went through to get there. She was probably hoping to get it done before Joel even woke up so he couldn't stop it.

Marty McGee

As someone who only played up to Bill's Town in the game and didn't watch any reactions to more of it, I absolutely loved this show. What struck me the most was that the writing was all intentional. Small things that seemed inconsequential, such as Joel's scar or Ellie's switchblade, were actually shown to have deeper meaning. Moments that felt like maybe we wouldn't get a payoff, such as Marlene's mysterious history with Ellie, totally paid off. Lines that seemed relevant just in the moment resonated throughout the series. I was thinking of Bill's message to Joel throughout that hospital scene. "That's why men like you and me are here. We have a job to do. And God help any motherfuckers who stand in our way." And at the end, "the only ones who can betray us are the ones we trust." Also, what more can be said about Pedro and Bella. I was mesmerized throughout by both of them. They better both get Emmy nods. So good and you can tell they have such great chemistry. But all the actors in this series absolutely killed it! You can tell it was a labor of love for all involved. Of course when the showrunners are the game creator and a brilliant producer who's also a true fan of the game, how can you go wrong? I'm glad you got through this. It was a rough beginning. It never truly let up, but I agree the last few weren't quite as bad. I also like to watch a lot of true crime so while David was disgusting it wasn't quite as horrifying to watch other than Ellie having to go through it. Whatever you decide on Season 2 is fine. I'm just along for the ride! Safe travels!

Joey Johansen

This show is a dream come true to a fan of the games, really is the best feeling seeing the best things you love from one thing get enriched by another form.

Joey Johansen
>>104232788

Yea and it makes sense they have to span 2 more season (surprised not more even) cause the amount of huge complex events in the second game is just a lot more than the first. There is a channel on youtube 'Andy Gilleand' that created basically an edited movie form of the games but playing and filming gameplay that matches up to the cutscenes so the entire game is shown as a really long film. The video for the first game is over 4 hours long. The video(s) for the second game, however, are closer to 10=15 hours. And I think that pretty much sums up how much interesting content is available from the second game.

jose giron

honestly I think its worth playing part 2 if you want to get into gaming, a lot of plp hated where it went but I thought it was excellent

Siti Dee

Damn, this is why i prefer watching this show from blind reactors! Your reactions to this has been amazing! Always looking forward to it! This has been a journey! Thanks nat! ❤️

RonJon
>>104232788

This is NOT what they said at all. They said that the next season IS going to adapt the 2nd game, but that the 2nd game is going to take more than 1 season to adapt, so it will spread over multiple seasons. They have actually specifically said the opposite of this, that they have no interest in adapting anything outside of the game's source material.

RonJon
>>104202677

I would not let them do it and I would do just as Joel did, but I would also not try to justify my actions on the fireflies not giving her choice, or maybe the cure wouldn't work, etc. I recognize that I am the bad guy here doing something selfish but I would still do it. Which is the same way I view Joel. He did what he had to do, he had no other option but to do the wrong thing. At the end of the day he has possibly removed the only real chance we'll ever get at a cure for this, AND he has betrayed Ellie's trust and their relationship will never be the same again, which is much more important than denying the cure in my opinion. She does not feel the same way about him anymore, she knows he's lying.

FatLittleButterfly

There is no way you can convince me that the fireflies had a chance to produce a cure to "save humanity." Their so called doctor wants to cut open the skull of the only person immune to the cordyceps as step 1. As Nat pointed out, they didn't even shave Ellie's head as prep for the surgery. All of that BS is based on the doctor guessing what is happening, and instead of finding a way to test it, drawing blood, marrow, finding an actual MRI machine (they can't even be sure that the cordyceps in Ellie is in the brains), their first step is to kill the ONLY immune person? You can't argue that they are being objective in sacrificing one live to save many, as they can't even justify that what they are doing can save the many. They are blinded by hope and Joel did the right thing saving Ellie there. They have a better chance at saving humanity by having her procreate than cutting her open.

jamie jones
>>104205472

Regardless, every possible potential outcome is still relevant to the conversation. Sure Joel would’ve acted the same, but the situation makes his reaction more justified.

kikoyito
>>104275924

As someone who works in neuroscience research, couldn't agree more. It's hard af growing iPSC, primary neuron cultures from mice, HEK cells, etc. in my lab with a ton of resources. There was no way he would succesfully culture Ellie's cells, expand her cell lines, and produce a vaccine. Where would all the media and various reagents come from? Cells are needy af, they'll start dieing if you don't change the media as reguarly as you feed people. They were as desperate as Joel, and I totally side with him.

Richard Maurer
>>104232692

Yes, Marlene was standing over Joel with two guards for a reason. If she was smart she would have made it four guards.

Victoria Tofoli

For me yes, season 2 is a LOT darker in every way. A part of it is the True Crime style stuff like you said and some parts are Henry/Sam style stuff lol. But I wouldn't be able to leave this series without closure, there is room for them to do such an amazing job with it and I think you would really love that and feell lighter after its ended. Love the reaction and hearing your thoughts, as always <3

Richard Maurer
>>104275924

While I agree with both of you, I think this is partly due to the lack of scientific understanding on the part of the writers and show runners. You have suspend disbelief over the more practical aspects of the science. I mean, as someone who has a lot of knowledge about animals I could point out it's highly unlikely that giraffes could survive the winters in northern Utah unaided, but I just suspend disbelief and let it go. Now as to the firefly doctors' practices, as far as not using the scientific method, that is fair game, as they just don't have enough data to know if a cure is even possible, so murdering your only possible test subject seems idiotic to me. In fact I kind assumed that would be the dilemma when they reached the fireflies, that they would need to keep Ellie indefinitely, basically as a captive lab rat. I didn't think they'd go with full on murder. But storywise it makes more sense to have it go to that extreme to make Joel's extreme reaction much more justifiable.

jamie jones
>>104232788

The second game only divided the fan base between fans and little bitches. And they specifically said they weren’t gonna do any filler and start season 2 with the second game.

Ana Fox

Brilliant performances no matter how long the screen time was 💗

Anonymous
>>104232788

Oh damn, I am very wrong smh. I read too much into the gq interview and Rockstar videos. Thanks for squaring me away lol. In retrospect, my comments should have ended with more question marks.

Slick447

Seeing this story made at such an immense level of quality damn near brought me to tears. Alright, fine, I teared up practically every episode. This season surpassed all of my expectations. Can't wait for season 2. They've already said season 2 will not be the entire second game, and that just makes me more excited. Every major change from the games has been for the better, so if they're adjusting the story that just means more room for improvement!

Peter Moe
>>104202677

Y'all ever play Days Gone? That game had crazy fanatics too, the reapers. They even kidnapped a young girl to indoctrinate into their ideology. Those writers simply played up the insanity to be more obvious and make this more subtle. The fireflies are not the military, they are a group of rebels, fanatics, one's Joel has on several occasions mentioned being full of shit. "Look towards the light" now I'm as spiritual as the next guy but we can call a cult a cult right? Back to days gone, still hoping you played it, but if the reapers had kidnapped a surgeon, one they claim could preform the surgery, and they claim they gathered all the completely necessary and for sure near mythical scarcity. do you think even for a second that would be a tangible plan, even if they were being honest (huge if) Also for anyone who is special, the show set it up perfectly where Joel tries to kill himself but a matter of chance saves him. Then homie single handedly kills a hospital full of trained soldiers. If you subscribe to the idea of god its fair to say he was being guided in his path, overcoming impossible odds to do what he did. That angle ONLY works if you believe in such things so we will just put that as a bonus and keep the prior my main points :) btw thanks for your thoughts I appreciate the dialogue on such a fun subject :)

Tom Fehr

wish the show would have been a little more explicit on this but yes the surgery 100% would have killed her. They would have removed her brain

Tom Fehr

im glad nat appreciated the ending but still a bummer that she overall seems to not love this show at all and isnt even sure if she would keep going which is easily the most negative reaction to this show i've seen from any reactor.

kikoyito
>>104275924

Very true, you def need suspend disbelief for shows like this. I agree that the real problem with the Fireflies decision is to go straight to surgery. I understand they are desperate, Ellie is their last hope, and that they are afraid of giving her the choice and her saying no; but they should have definitely kept her alive for testing before doing surgery. The show makes it a bit more of a stupid decision because of the extra backstory with Ellie's mom. If Marlene suspected that her mom was bit prior to cutting the umbilical cord, put the pieces together; try and replicate that scenario with more mother's / infants to create more immune babies. Its highly highly immoral yes, but they seem to be trying to save humanity at whatever the cost. It seems like a less risky route than immediately murdering the only immune person they know of.

dieselbeast
>>104391037

Yeah I was bummed too, welp not everybody can like everything with the same energy as others, just the way the cookie crumbles 🤷 with that being said I do hope she watches season two whenever that day comes

Wu Sha Ling

part/season 1 is one long trolley problem. one of the great things of science fiction is exploring these uncomfortable questions. the lack of resolution will turn people away. the difficult issues and the consequent internalized struggle is the very essence of this season. many will project morality on the story, understandable and that's the point. challenging morality and exploring the dilemmas of being human.

John

Given the situation Joel was placed in, he did what he had to do. There were so many bad/wrong decisions by everyone involved. Marlene has a lot of nerve to say what Ellie would have wanted when she purposely didn't tell her what they were doing. Joel's not a hero, nor was he trying to be one. He's a father willing to do whatever it takes to protect his daughter, just like any parent would.

Anonymous

He couldn't lose another daughter, especially when the cure might not even have worked. Remember what he said a while back. We keep going for family. She became family.

Anonymous

Oh also, the doctor was likely a med student when the world fell or in some other field. Not an expert at all in the way we think of it today. In regards to season 2, it might not jump right to game 2, there was a 4 year gap in game time between the two games. Season 2 could fill in some of that time and be brand new for everyone

Anonymous

I think you’ll be able to handle season 2 and 3. I’ve played both games, love both of them, and while the seasons game has some darker themes, the first one had more sadder moments. There’s nothing like Henry and Sam in the second game.

Mike Hell

Hey The Last of Us is available for preloading on Steam right now, just in case you were wondering :)

Alexander Dashiell

Yeah. Honestly, if you can handle heartbreak and hard decisions as long as it's not as a result of "zombies," then I'm pretty sure you can handle season 2 and on. The second game of course still has infected, but they are even less integral to the story as they were in the first game, and given their presence in the show was significantly reduced, I'd almost be surprised if we see them more than just a few times going forward lol. It's an extremely character driven narrative going forward, but I will say that it IS also really heavy. As a player of the game, I was made to make choices that didn't sit well with me, but personally I'm looking forward to how it's adapted since the show won't force me to have my hand on the wheel. Glad to see that you were able to enjoy that last few episodes and when it comes around, if you watch more, I'll be happy to watch along with you. :)

Jim Finley
>>104210510

My thought when I saw her reaction was that she knew he was lying, and that was an irreversible loss for her.

Anonymous

It wasn't brain surgery, it was a dissection. They were just gonna rip out her brain and take what they needed.