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Buffy The Vampire Slayer - S07x17|♡Uncut Reaction &Review♡ (Patreon)

Published:
2023-04-21 03:38:02
Edited:
2023-05-31 16:35:53
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Content

Lies My Parents Told Me

Robin Wood seeks revenge on Spike for killing his mother nearly 30 years ago, whilst everyone else tries to find out how The First has control over him.

Link to the reaction:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0r8nphk79e8zcv1/Buffy%207x17.mp4?dl=0

Files

Comments

Bobby P

Yep, great episode. The fact that this late on in the show, it is still churning out complex character-centric eps that draw upon all we know about our heroes from 7 seasons' growth, and organically leading to tense conflict where no one is entirely right or wrong, is what makes it so beloved. On first watch, I was actually wondering - as we are so close to the end - if they would kill Spike in this episode. But the treble thread of 'lies my parents told me' or apparent parental betrayals - Spike's mother to Spike, Giles to Buffy, and Nikki to Robin - is great writing. The momentum built towards the end of the episode, intercutting between Wood and Spike's fight, Spike's final altercation with his mother, and Buffy/Giles in the graveyard, also showcases some great editing. Many throwbacks to Fool for Love in this one, especially that in both episodes the key phrase comes back at the end - not 'you're beneath me' any more, but 'the mission is what matters'. That's what this season has been about: Buffy's final growth into adult responsibility and her full embrace of her mission, learning to wield power (or choose to turn it down, as in Get It Done) - to be an effective, compassionate, pragmatic, even ruthless leader at times, who has to make the tough decisions. With her hardest battle before her, will she make the right calls and lead effectively? Or maybe even if she can do all that, as the first slayer says in Get It Done, 'it's not enough'.

Steve Quast

Spike's my favorite character, too. Watching "School Hard" is what drew me into the Buffyverse. He's come so far since then and this episode shows it. Plus we get more flashbacks, more insight into his past, a cameo with Drusilla. Fantastic episode indeed.

Judson

This is why there can never be a Buffy remake or revival. The original writing and directing team, and Sarah Michelle Gellar's talent can never be replicated. Look at some of the absolutely cutting lines Buffy said in this episode: telling Wood she'll let him be murdered or telling Giles she doesn't need him anymore and closing the door in his face. But she delivers them with such empathy and measured wisdom that they don't even come across harsh, just a part of Buffy's assessment after some mature reflection.

Rey Gallogo

I think the Angel episode should be watched before this one even if not in chronological order. It's no different from when episodes start out with a result and then we see how it lead there.

Syed Hasnain

I think one of the most understated things about Spike which is clear in an episode like this is that his hard cool guy exterior and swagger is a smokescreen for him still being William. James Marsters once said something to the effect of once William as a vampire figured out that he was indestructible that he created the Spike persona for himself, which I think allowed him to be all the things he wanted to be as well as the things that he was told he could never be, and also gave him some protection from how highly emotional and sensitive he is both as a human and vampire. A lot of what his mother as a vampire said to him in this episode likely influenced him in the total reboot of who he is. Nicknames and reputations are usually given *to* people, but one thing that's interesting about him is that he told people to start calling him Spike and likely went out of his way to be seen as this rather than as that. He's basically a sentimental dork who's been cosplaying a cool guy for centuries and has had enough experience doing it for it to be highly believable. Also he has superpowers and was "evil" for most of his existence, so not many people are going to challenge him on it. I also think that that's at least part of why Spike seems more Spike with or without a soul than Angel/Angelus, because "Spike" is sort of a made up character anyway. It's subtle but you also sort of see this in "Storyteller" when he goes off on Andrew but then is cooperative and starts all over again when told he wasn't standing in the right place. The only character on this show now who really knows *him* outside of how he carries himself is Buffy

KiwiJello

I love this episode, but something has ALWAYS bothered me about it: What the F reason did Robin have to think he could beat Spike? Especially when he triggered Spike with the song??? Why didn't he just take on Buffy too? He was going to lose no matter what. So now he lost AND got psyched :)

Victoria
>>106860667

I think we are to assume the First has had an influence on him to make him blinded by vengeance. The way Andrew was influenced to kill Jonathan. It wasn’t a full-on possession like with Spike, but I think it’s implied the First has a powerful lure and some of the characters are more susceptible than others.

Suddenly Frogs
>>106860667

Very true, but in a state of raging vengeance people don't think too logically. From our perspective, no, he definitely doesn't stand a chance, unless he hoped that subconscious Spike would be an easier fight? Which again is flawed. I'll reference Astronauts vs Cavemen. :) Can't wait til the next episode :D

Foamy

I don't know how it eluded me, but on this watch I noticed how much Spike's mum looks and even sounds like Joyce. One of those obvious things that whooshed over my head.

Syed Hasnain
>>106860667

Spike was far less effective when he was feral and triggered. I think Wood had everything set up to where he could slay a savage beast, but when Spike got his wits about him it was pretty effortless to take Wood down

JDM

Fred did meet willow, when willow appeared in the season 2 finale of angel to tell angel buffy died fred was their

Mariella Nilsson

Spike with a soul really said to wood who had tears in this eyes "unlike yours, my mum really loved me". Soulles Spike killed Woods mother and Spike with a soul really says to wood "your mum didn't love u". Now that is truly evil and shows he hasn't redeemed himself, he went crazy for a short while, but he hasn't really struggled with what he had done, and he remembers it all! Truly evil.

Victoria
>>106897663

I think context of the situation matters. Wood had just lured Spike into a trap and attempted to kill him. Including activating the trigger to weaken Spike into a helpless state. That sounds imaginably terrifying to experience. I think being *mean* to Robin is probably the nicest thing Spike could’ve done after that. If someone had just tried to kill me and I got the upper hand, I would’ve done way worse. I honestly can’t picture them having a hug and a heart-to-heart moment after what Wood did. If Robin had told him in a non-murderous way, I think Spike’s reaction would’ve been more benevolent

Steveo

I like how you mentioned Giles and him killing Ben, which was actually in the script (him telling Buffy he killed Ben when they are in the cemetery) but was cut for time constraints. I hate that it was as it definitely made Giles decision to go behind Buffy's back make more sense.

Mariella Nilsson
>>106897663

6Nah, who wouldn't understand someone trying to avenge their mother? And he was looking down at someone in obvious pain, crying, and Spike had to say "unlike yours, my mother loved me" when he was The one who killed her. There is no context that excuses that. We all understod willow avenging tara, I think spike understod wood avenging his mother. There really was no need to be that mean to The person whos mother you killed. IF I should understand spikes reaction to wood trying to avenge his mother, then spike should definatly understand wood wanting to avenge his mother, right? And if it is terrifying for spike almost beeing killed, imagine how terrified The little boy wood was when spike actually murdered hismother! And how terrified his mother was, we have seen buffy beeing terrified when almost killed, if som vampire killed buffy, wouldn't we want that vimpire dead? You can't say "someone tried to killme, I would be upset to", The parallell would be "if I had murdered someones mother and their child tried to take revenge on me".

Victoria
>>106897663

I think you’re missing one key element. Ensouled Spike didn’t kill Nikki. Robin is looking for revenge on someone who doesn’t exist anymore. And Robin didn’t even try to understand the distinction. Soulless Spike is gone and not coming back (there’s no curse on him), so Robin’s vendetta is pointless. Ensouled Spike has every right to be rude to someone who just tried to kill him for no reason.

Mariella Nilsson
>>106897663

No, I don't think it is right to kill spike with a soul, but my point is that spike with a soul said to Woods something incredably cruel that showed no emphaty and showed that spike with a soul is not very noble, but instead pretty cruel. A human parallell would be if a person was drugged and killed someone, then when normal again gets attacked by the victims child and when having won that fight stands over The victims child who has tears in their eyes and the person then says. I don't feel bad, and you mother didn't love you, but mine did. And Woods did understand That spike had a soul, he asked allot of cuestions trying to figurer outifspike now was a good man, but then heard that spike with a soul was killing again.

Victoria
>>106897663

We just have polar opposite opinions about this. You think Spike owed him kindness after Robin trapped him and tried to kill him for something he (ensouled) didn’t even do. I do not think he owed him kind words after that. Spike not killing him in retaliation was the ultimate mercy, even knowing that Robin could try to kill him again at any time. Now if Robin had taken Spike out for a beer and revealed he was Nikki’s son, I think Spike would’ve been compassionate. But after an attempted murder? Nah.

Syed Hasnain
>>106897663

Having a soul doesn't make someone a saint in every situation. While I understand Wood's motivations, Spike is talking to the man who just plotted to kill him and he doesn't feel obligated to be the most kind person in the conversation they're having. Wood also said a lot of things about Spike that don't really accurately represent him as an ensouled vampire (if they had, Spike would have followed through on killing him, wouldn't he?). There was hardly enough time passed in this scene for all the adrenaline and resentment to have just passed. It's one thing if you're saying he didn't have to say that one line, but saying his redemption as a character is void because he's too mean to his would-be killer? Big stretch. Spike also doesn't have the same mentality as Angel in wanting to make up for all the evil he did while soulless. He doesn't think that's possible (which I think Angel also later realizes). Which also means that when he does good, at this point of the series he's doing it specifically because he *wants* to do it and not because there's some shiny reward at the end whether literal or moral. He doesn't even believe that a relationship with Buffy is possible or that she ever loved him. It's also important to remember that it literally isn't even his fault that he killed anyone in those days. Wood is entitled to his anger, but "there is no context that excuses that" in regards to soulless actions could not be more untrue in the lore of this universe. Spike was literally supernaturally possessed by a demon for over a century (he may have retained more of his human personality traits than others, but I think it's safe to say that William at no point would delight in the slaughter of innocent human beings). If such a thing was observable in our world, it would excuse murder once the person regained control of themselves, and also, that possessed person was a victim and now a survivor themselves. Doesn't make the feelings go away for the people harmed or their families, but it does mean the person is not deserving of what Wood tried to do here, nor does it mean the person isn't entitled to their own anger after the fact.

Mariella Nilsson
>>106897663

Who would take The person who killed their mother out for a beer!? We really see this situation differently! Well thanks for a nice diskussion!

Mariella Nilsson
>>106897663

Sid, I didn't say that wood had a right to kill ensouled spike. I just said that it is understandable to want to avenge your mother when you have leared that spike is still killing. And that it is truly evil and offputting for spike to say to The son of The woman spike killed "you mother didn't love you". If a person kills someone by accident (not that person faul) that person would probably still feel guilty and not want to be extra mean to The family of The person killed.

Victoria
>>106897663

You keep saying “the person who killed his mother” but Ensouled Spike didn’t kill Nikki. I’ve already explained this thoroughly but you either don’t understand or refuse to accept it so I’ll just quote Buffy in this episode because she always says it best: “You’re looking for revenge on a man who doesn’t exist anymore”

Syed Hasnain
>>106897663

I agreed that Wood's motivations are understandable, but where we disagree is the level of civility you think is required of someone speaking to their attempted murderer a minute after the attempt when 1) Wood is at least aware that Spike didn't have a soul at the time of Nikki's death, even if Wood doesn't especially care and 2) Wood already gave Spike a whole Psych 101 about what a dog and animal he thinks Spike is while trying to kill him. If you think throwing some of that acid back in his face after everything just happened makes Spike "truly evil" then okay lol. You used the example of if someone kills someone while drugged that they should still feel bad but it isn't remotely the same thing at all. There's no drug in the real world that turns every single person who uses it into a remorseless serial killer lol. This is a purely supernatural event that happened to Spike (and Angel, and sort of kind of Darla) in a fictional universe, and Wood knows it but he doesn't care because it's his mom, which is understandable, and so too is Spike's "eff you idc" after he almost unknowingly walked into his own unjust death

Mariella Nilsson
>>106897663

No, I have said, that spike with a soul, shouldn't die for what souless spike did. My point is that spike with a soul was neadlessly cruel. If a person was drugged or had a memory loss and killed someone, even thoug it wouldn't be their fault, if they taunted The child of The victime it would be needlessly cruel.

Syed Hasnain
>>106897663

That drugging example you've likened it to twice now is absolutely nothing like losing a soul and getting it back in Buffyverse lol. There is no drug that just turns everyone who uses it into a serial killer. It's not like Spike just walked up to Wood for no reason or provocation and started taunting him about his mother. The line that you think proves that Spike "didn't really redeem himself" came like a minute after an orchestrated murder conspiracy against him in which the would-be killer is well aware of the soul situation and chooses to not care. Wood is entitled to his anger but being entitled to anger is not entitlement to just doing whatever tf you want about it, nor does it exonerate him from getting some acid thrown in his face after losing. Also Spike is not even on any type of mission for redemption like Angel. He knows who he used to be and that there's nothing he can do about it now and fights on the side of good simply because he wants to. Any sort of attempt to atone for past soulless sins is not even a characteristic he has. Which honestly makes more sense than spending one's existence trying to make up for things that they had no control over doing. You know what would have hurt more than that thing Spike said to Wood? If Wood had won and Spike spent all of eternity possibly being tortured in a hell dimension lol. I'd probably say mean things too if I came out on top of that fight

JDM
>>106846097

I agree this should be done maybe with reactors like dakarajayne, riley lynn and darcie's watching buffy who are not yet their yet although riley lynn is very close

Enas Bassiony
>>106897663

I'm sorry but that comment is laghable at best .. no offense intended but seriouly?!!

Enas Bassiony

It's not that Spike does not feel guilt.. we have seen what getting the soul made him feel like .. we literally saw this guilt.. he just does not like to brood and dwell in it.. he did so many horrible things and there is nothing he can do about it now .. does he feel bad for what he did? Yes . Can he fix it? bring back the people he killed? Nop.. what can he do then? Fight on the good side and help the good people, so he does, and moves on ... he also acknowledged a fact there, Nikki was a slayer and he is a Vampire like what do people honestly expect?!! For them to be bffs? For him NOT to kill her if he got the chance just like she would have killed him if she got the chance??.. or was Nikki going to show him mercy and spare his life?!! .. people tend to neglect the nature of vampres and what their existence requires and what their instinct tells them to do .. they just expect a predator to spare the pray's life for no reason other than the fact that THEY see this as what should happen.. let me know when a hungry lion in the wild sees a deer pass by and just let it go on its merry way because it's "the right thing to do" .. LOL

StephanieB
>>106940719

I never knew that! Thanks for that insight. I'd love to know where you get original scripts from?

StephanieB
>>106897663

Alright, Mariella, Victoria and Sid: What do you think of this theory: WOOD: She was my world. SPIKE: And you weren't hers... Life of a slayer. No matter how many people they have around them, they fight alone. Life of the chosen one. I just figured something out, after seeing this episode at least 3 times. Spike thinks Wood's mom didn't love Wood because, like Buffy, she was a slayer. And Spike thinks Buffy isn't capable of loving him...or maybe anyone. Or at least not as much as she loves her mission. This isn't really about Spike trying to get a dig in at Wood, making him hurt by telling him his mother didn't love him. It's about Spike rationalizing why Buffy couldn't love Spike. Soul or no soul, Spike is in his own head, processing his understanding of the world in regards to how it relates to him.

Rio de Tanana

I’m Team Wood. However I am realistic. There is absolutely no way Wood would have been allowed to beat up the fandom’s favorite imaginary pale male boyfriend.

Mahaut

I think in Spike's head there is also a difference between the slayers he killed and all his other victims. Yes all were innocent lives he took but the slayers were not your basic innocent run of the mill person, they were literally called to fight vampires to the death and have powers so in a way like he said it's the way the game is played. He probably sees the two slayers he killed as the least guilt inducing of his victims.

Mahaut
>>117762317

We got it you’re a Spike hater. Why do you feel the need to comment about it under every video seriously?