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Spoiler Mode - Joker (Patreon)

Published:
2019-10-08 04:40:37
Edited:
2019-11-28 11:27:59
Imported:
2021-08
⚑ Flagged

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Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqkCuEqcnd8

Brandon, Huber, and Ian's opinions are all over the place on this highly-controversial comic-book thriller, leading to a discussion full of big laughs and confusing rants. As the crew struggles to find the messages Joker was trying to convey, what moments stood out to fans of Batman, 70s crime dramas, and classic origin stories? 

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Comments

Logan Young

Jones you rock. Thanks for getting this done tonight! Gonna listen while doing housework!

Anonymous

Would have loved a question post but glad it's posted quickly.

Anonymous

Wow. This was a surprisingly negative take on a movie I really like. A lot of people who watched Taxi Driver and/or King of Comedy, are saying Joker is kind of a ripoff of those movies. I want to say that I don’t have this feeling at all. Joker, to me, is an uncomfortable portrait of someone’s decent into madness. That person just happens to be Joker. It’s the most realistic take you could’ve ever done. There’s also not that many violence. But when it’s there, it is very realistic and brutal. That is why people are so uncomfortable with it: people are now used to Deadpool-like violence: gory, but without the actual trauma. I’m sorry, but I listened to this spoiler mode and hoped you guys would talk about what the movie is, rather then what it isn’t. I get you guys were disappointed you didn’t get the movie you wanted, but Joker is still a very distinct movie. I wanted to hear about THAT.

Anonymous

TLDR: I feel about this spoiler mode like you guys felt about Joker. 😂

Anonymous
>>27660148

I hate the, this film isn't original it's derivative argument. At this point, most things take from other things. Most films or even music isn't original. I don't see anything wrong with taking elements from two masterpieces of cinema.

Anonymous

Thanks for taking the time to give us your opinions. I hadn't viewed the movie from your personal lenses and the critiques are valid. I may not agree with all but many I hadn't even thought of and I'm glad you had the conviction to bring them to light and stand with your opinions. This was a great listen!

Anonymous

I hate that this film is being branded 'dangerous for our times', but people said the same about rock, about video games, about films like A Clockwork Orange. Some of the greatest works of all times had people saying that it will be dangerous for our society. But that's what great works do, it challenges those notions, it challenges our values. And we always laughed at them, because those criticisms were laughable. No Marilyn Manson did not cause Columbine. I thought we were past this sort of witch hunting. And to hear the people that once laughed at these ridiculous claims, to somehow call The Joker dangerous, it disheartens me. What ever happened to common sense?

Anonymous

So many critics bring up taxi driver and king of comedy. Those movies came out in 1976 and 1982. It's 2019. I hate that argument. Can themes form those movies never be used again? Can't a modern movie bring those themes to a new audience?

Anonymous
>>27662434

I really enjoyed Joker, and felt it had a very poignant message given our current political environment, the income inequality in our country, and all the mass shootings we have and mental illness very often being pointed to as a cause but no one ever willing to do anything about it. The villain as I see it is Gothams/our society and our/the people in powers unwillingness/unable-ness to make any real change.

Anonymous

My biggest gripe with the movie was the introduction of Arthur being a false narrator in such a un-compelling way through the Murray dream sequence in the first 15 minutes. It's the key moment that ruins the relationship subplot as of course he'd imagine a life with a woman he only talked with only once, he dreams of being a guest on his favourite tv show every night. Phoenix's performance when it has time to actually shine is really great, I almost wait to get my hands on a blu-ray of this movie and go frame by frame and just dissect that journal. I wouldn't be surprised if that's where he spent the most time developing the character just by the snippets we see throughout the movie. Overall I'm not surprised that once again we are seeing people get defensive about an overall mediocre film just because of the character it's portraying in the most popular genre at the moment, I just hope we get to a time where we can expect better.

Anonymous

Worst takes ever lol. Had to quit watching this after a couple of minutes. A shame but to each their own. L&R

Anonymous

Alright, I know I’m being critical, but some of the points raised just don’t make sense. “In Gotham City 3 people get shot in a train and then the next day there is a huge revolution” This is the point that you raised, that I had the biggest issue with, and one I think that you took from the RLM review. There are several points in the film where they describe that city as going mad, not a good place. The way they repeatedly describe it makes it sound like a powder keg ready to go off at any moment. I mean the film starts off talking about strikes and the issues in the city. It basically shows you so much about the socio-economic divide in the city. I think the only reason people missed out on it was because the film literally did not spell it out. And then the shooting of 3, rich, white kids would get a lot more coverage in the news. And in that coverage, Thomas Wayne, pretty much the biggest person in the city calls a large portion of people “Clowns”. This was adding salt to the wounds, fuel to the fire. It was the breaking point. Remember the line The Joker makes at the end, if that was me that was dead, you would walk right over my body? But it’s these three and you make a big scene about it. This riot was basically spelled out throughout the film. And yes, big riots in real life have started for less.

Anonymous
>>27664102

“Playing both sides at the same time” “Being an indy film but a blockbuster at the same time” I’m not sure what you mean by this point? What aspects of this film were blockbuster like? The criticism just does not make sense. Nothing in this film had a blockbuster like element to it. “Was appealing to the left and right” I’m sorry, but this film is very left wing and not even a bit appealing to the right. First it talks about the socio-economic divide within society. How people are tired of the lack of social mobility. And then it shows how cuts in government funding has an impact on the vulnerable. “They don’t care about people like us”. “It was trying to make an unreliable narrator whilst being some cool origin story for The Joker where real things happen” I feel like this was accomplished. I’m not even sure what the point that is being made is. That you can’t have an unreliable narrator with real world consequences? Look at Mr Robot, Fight Club, this film. All of them show real world consequences with an unreliable narrator. In my mind the two points are not correlated and do not have a connection to each other. You can have an unreliable narrator with real world consequences. Apologies for the wall of text, just needed to get this off my chest.

Anonymous

I’m honestly surprised the Allies thoughts on the movie echo many of my own. For me it’s ok at best and definitely not worth the hype and praise it’s been getting.

Anonymous

I agree with most of the criticisms voiced in this video. I have a lot of mixed feelings about the movie. There are so many parts of it that I found fantastic, and a lot of decisions that made no sense to me. Thanks to Ian, Brandon, and Huber for putting this together. It was nice to hear their conflicting views.

Audacious Manatee

incredibly surprised by their reactions. I don't think I agree with anything other than how similar it is to Taxi Driver and King of Comedy. Like, actually shocked by their reactions to the movie. To each their own I guess :/

Owen

Reading the reactions to this is almost more fun than watching it. People who loved this movie are so desperate for everyone else to love it too.

Anonymous

Personally loved that it didn't explicitly commented on societal issues. The point that 'you can get anything out of this movie, depending on how you fill in the blanks/interpret certain scenes' is actually something I really enjoyed about it. I think it helped for me personally that I felt empathy for Arthur, almost the whole way through. To me this is a movie about a man that got broken by his environment and genetic disposition and therefore turned into the villain. I also think you can defend the scene where his gf gets reveleaed to be fake. I don't think this is to show the audience that she was fake, but that Arthur realizes it. He actually has a moment where he connects with the fact that he's losing reality, which I thought worked. All in all I think this movie is very good. Would have loved to see some more 'crazy joker' moments, and parts were slow, but generally a very gripping story.

Anonymous

I think Ian is mostly right, I feel like it has a few nuggets of greatness but ultimately drops the ball. It doesn’t do enough to leave the breadcrumbs of it being make believe I think ambiguity is great but it needs to be elusive and mysterious not just played straight and maybe you can see it differently. I think the film could’ve delved into the wacky progressively as he slipped into the Joker I think we in general needed more time with him as the Joker its all good having an origin story but what got me buzzed is what it leads up to and he needs to then be the Joker. I also think it does too much to separate it from Batman and it’s universe, I would have loved it being this descent into madness followed by a confrontation with batman I think if they were brave enough to involve it a different Batman rather than Pattinson they could have ended with his final nail in the coffin meeting the love of his life Batman. I think Arkham origins explores this pretty well and it could be easily done if they weren’t afraid of ruining it for future movies. As a second thought I think the pattinson batman should definitely be more detective focused as well as him using the darkness. Batman begins did this a bit with just not showing him but I want him to literally walk out of a shadow or his silhouette or shadow flying over appears and freaks people out. Ultimately a bit of a missed opportunity especially with someone like Joaquin who is amazing

Anonymous

How can Ian say this movie is predictable when Ian contradicted himself by laying out multiple paths each character or the plot could take? That is literally the opposite of predictable.

Anonymous

I went into this movie feeling skeptical because of Jared Leto's take on the character and how it kind of left a bad taste in people's mouths, mine included. I left the theater actually happy. I labled Phoenix's performance as one of the best. I still think so. But I never really thought about the actual take on this version of the Joker or the environment he's in. Until this podcast. Now, I'm totally onboard with what you guys are saying. It was a "meh" movie. The performance were great and the cinematography was nice. The tone and atmosphere could've been a little better. But the story was a mess. Here's hoping a continuation through the next Batman film can fix that.

Anonymous
>>27671399

People who didn't like it are so desperate for everyone else to dislike it too. I can play this game too!

warren blyth
>>27672411

mostly agree. but. i think they establish joker is broken from the start. the point isn't that the he could have been saved. the point is that he's a dangerous person that was trying to fit society's norms (even trying to confess his crimes several times) and people just laughed at him. So "they get what they deserve" (to roughly quote the most important 'joke' in the whole movie).

SpectR0nn

I just got back from the theater, kinda hyped up about the movie and totally expecting you guys to be absolutely glowing about it (especially Huber). Color me surprised by two of you being lukewarm about it and one not liking it. It's not often that your opinions differ so much from my own, but it's a welcome change of pace I must say. Honestly, all of you bring up some valid points, which certainly has made me look at the movie in a different light as well. So thank you for that!

Anonymous

Ian's entire POV on this movie can be distilled into the last 5 minutes where he says Todd Phillips isn't smart enough to say anything important with this movie, a movie that hits you over the head with the ideas of grinding neoliberal austerity that is more coherent than anything I've been able to piece together from Ian's politics that seem to begin and end with the "more female prison guards" meme.

Anonymous

First, just want to say I appreciate the Allies putting this video up and the work they do. With that said, the discussion did feel a little off to me: (1) it seemed like Jones and Ian were mainly workshopping a Joker movie they wanted to see, and (2) there were a few instances where being so closely adjacent to the entertainment industry gave some oddly skewed criticisms. I did feel bad for Huber, who tried to bring up the conversation of the false narrative more than a few times, but that discussion kinda got brushed to the side. Maybe dive more into the movie this is vs what the movie should have been?

Anonymous

Disappointed that Ian believes the "incite violence" narrative that the media has been pushing on this movie after seeing it.

Anonymous

I'm glad I could dismiss this movie as a "comic" movie and a "blockbuster", you don't need to look for any deeper social meaning/commentary etc. It will almost always be a light touch on any subject it takes on. I wasn't expecting anything special aside from Phoenix's performance. It was a good movie, enjoyable. Saying otherwise just means you put way too much weight on how good it could be in the first place.

Shazz

I just got back from seeing it so super interested to hear what all of you thought! I was rly attached to it coming out or anything so I'm not mad either way on people's opinions haha

Shazz

Oh and that song you were talking about was by known nonce pedo Gary Glitter so I hope he wasn't getting any money off that usage cos yikes xD

Anonymous

I don't mind people having their opinions on something. But listening to you guys talk about this movie were almost identical to listening to KF. I feel like you guys at this point are just trying to appeal to the majority of your community. This is the whole Jones guesting on Colin Moriarty's podcast all over again. Start thinking for yourself and stop trying to please ANYONE. Stop trying to be woke or appeal to a woke audience.

Anonymous
>>27725615

You already think so little of them to think they are giving their opinion to appeal to their audience when the youtube video has a huge number of dislikes, you are better off seeing something else.

Anonymous

I really disliked the finale of this film. The idea Joker kills Murray because its what he deserves totally contradicts the previous line of him saying right and wrong are subjective, like comedy. So what, are you justice or a nihilist? You can't be both.

Anonymous
>>27663307

I started the same way, but Jones and Ian actually made very good points I hadn't thought of and helped me open my mind (they also made some pretty bad mistakes haha). I suggest you watch the whole thing without judging.

Anonymous
>>27694563

Yup, many of us are commenting the same. Expectations (never a great thing) play too much of a role in this discussion. The funny thing is, this film is best when NOT being linked to the comicbook characters/universe – in fact you could remove those aspects and I believe it would actually work better (the whole Wayne thing often feels shoehorned)

Anonymous

I actually wish you read the comments, guys. I totally get why you don't, but in this case there is a very interesting conversation to be had about mental issues and social influences, and your community is –by and large– capable of respectful dialogue. Shame.

A Joker Fan
>>27674790

I think Ian made some ok points but than would completely contradict himself. Plus his whole I’m trying to be objective bs was annoying because it is so obviously disingenuous. I guess he can’t be seen by his art house and Indy buddies as being soft on the movie or “gasp” actually liking it for what it is. I bet you take the exact same movie and change the director to Jordan Peele and he’s probably singing it’s praises. And I’m still dumbfounded why there was any controversy for this movie in the first place, if anything it glorified the 99 percenters and the antifa rallies, which is par for the course in Hollywood. Ultimately I thought it was a good but not great movie, I think I liked the trailers more than the movie, some parts were a bit too vague, clunky at times, and a bit too slow in the beginning. I still don’t buy his character killing those Wall Street guys, his imaginary girlfriend, or even morrie (although that scene was intense) it just seemed forced. And yes Ian the movie would have been better if Paul Thomas Anderson directed it but so would a lot of movies. Not every movie has to be as good as there will be blood. All in all a bit disappointed with this spoiler mode episode despite the mostly positive reviews from people who have seen it, the allies couldn’t get anyone to accurately present the positives of the film to counter Ian’s obviously biased rants, of course the cynical part of me suspects they just don’t want the “optics” of tacitly endorsing the film. I couldn’t even begin to understand what Huber was talking about he was on another planet with his crazy theories.

A Joker Fan
>>27674914

I mean didn’t think it was predictable, in fact no one of course picked up on that old photograph of his mother that Arthur was looking at which was signed on the back “love your smile” - TW. So we don’t really know for sure the whole truth.

Anonymous

I thought it was fairly obvious which bits were not real and which were not based on the mise en scene. That and things that you guys are pointing out as inconsistencies, or convenient things for other characters to know in the plot. Similar to intentional errors in Shutter Island. I also thought, similar to Huber, that the movie was essentially mostly fabricated. My take was that it is a loose telling of events from Arthur's perspective, probably to a therapist. Some of it is a rough memory of the events, some of it is elaborate exaggeration, and some of it is his own id shaping the events to fit his view of the world. Also, invoking King of Comedy seems very intentional to me.

Matt Shay

I think the Allies nailed it here. Loved the commentary and I think Ian made a lot of good points. What is this movie trying to say? It's not saying much coherently, and what it is saying is problematic. The main problem I find is that they tried to establish Joker as an anti-hero, but they don't put him up against anything to support his role as the protagonist. The enemy is vaguely... society? The problem with that being, a lot of the time people justify their violent, confrontational behaviour based on perceived persecution (from - name a thing, SJWs, the left, rich people, etc.). "Society" didn't do this to him, or to anyone. The Joker had a hard life but arguably not harder than countless other people who did not turn into violent murderous psychopaths. His transformation isn't justified, and the Joker as a villain is honestly better off without a real backstory (like in Dark Knight). To lift him into some kind of an inspirational figure is absurd, both within the movie and in real life.

Anonymous

Had to bail after 4 minutes of this spoiler mode. Imagine having this much group think about something lol, but didn't expect much more from these guys about this.

Anonymous

Maybe you guys should do a continuation episode with different Easy Allies members. You guys missed important details and it hurt the discussion.

Anonymous
>>27706336

I believe this is a mischaracterization of what he said. There's a difference between a piece of media inciting violence, and a piece of media not handling well/irresponsibly handling important matters. I'm of the mind he was claiming the 2nd, not the 1st.

Anonymous
>>27817770

So you disagree with their assessment, thus instead of attacking their ideas put forth, you attack the persons? Please tell me I'm reading this wrong.

Anonymous

I really love all the allies on this and I see what is trying to be said here. However, it’s unfortunate that certain parts of this movies were not understood and a more nuanced discussion was left out due to it. I think Ian has judged Todd too quickly and assumed he is not capable of being a good director. As such I believe he taken the worst possible take on his achievement. If you keep saying “I went in with the best of intentions, but” you are using that to bolster and argument with a rheological fallacy ie it does not make the subsequent point more valid. Also it is clear that this movie was not all a dream but it is also clear that it wasn’t all real either. This movie is a mirror and for me, as person who is involved with helping mental health charities, I really felt the struggle portrayed here. I was hoping for a spoiler mode that lavishes and debates the details, this felt like the opposite of that. It is still an appreciated podcast and Ian is one of the greatest people of all time. Also on a different note, one final point that no one seems to talk about... did the state really cut their mental health scheme, or did Arthur fabricate this to justify his reasons for wanting to come off his medication? The look on the guys face in the asylum when he told him to get help and when Arthur said there was none, he didn’t show empathy, he didn’t seem to know what he was talking about at all...

Jack Sibert

This was the first spoiler mode I've listened to. It's gonna be a hard pass on movie stuff from the allies in the future. There just wasn't any reconcilable differences between theirs and my takes on the film. I wouldn't have expected them to have such isolated stranded island tastes in film. I'm looking forward the future work of Joaqin Phoenix and Todd Phillips in with this character, as the audience reception and box office performance are both record breakingly positive. Sticking with video game conversation from the allies from now on.

Anonymous

The more buzz, box office success and discussion this movie gets the more I feel like Allies had a bad take on this one. You only need to look at one of the dozens of great analysis videos other channels have done to see that a lot of the themes, subtext and nuance just went right over their head, or for some reason they closed their ears to them, which is a shame.