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Doctor Who 12x10 | Season Finalé - REACTION HIGHLIGHTS!! (Patreon)

Published:
2023-06-14 20:41:14
Imported:
2023-06

Content

Fascinating capper to the main part of the season & Part 2 to the previous episode... VERY curious to hear what y'all think haha.  ALSO!  Had to shoot this before Facts were in, so those will be reposted in the comments below!

"The Timeless Children"

Watch Along: https://youtu.be/Q6zTXzVUWuo

Reaction Highlights: https://vimeo.com/836311266/2534d5c534

Links To All Our DOCTOR WHO Reactions:

Files

Doc Who 12x10 - Reaction Highlight [re-up]

This is "Doc Who 12x10 - Reaction Highlight [re-up]" by Ryan Right on Vimeo, the home for high quality videos and the people who love them.

Comments

thereelrejects

“The Timeless Children” facts 🔷 This episode had the most extensive use of archive footage in any Doctor Who media as of 2021 🔷 Tecteun and the Timeless Child's regenerations mark the first time female to male regeneration has been seen onscreen. However, the first depiction of a female regenerating into a male in any media was in AUDIO: Enemy Lines. In the case of the Timeless Child, multiple regenerations were shown, both female to male and male to female. 🔷 The episode's cliffhanger ending calls back to the cliffhanger endings of both Doomsday and Last of the Time Lords, in which the dumbfounded Doctor repeatedly utters the word "what?" in response to the events suddenly and rapidly unfolding around them. 🔷 This episode is the first time in the show's history, discounting full red and full blue from various previous stories, that clips from the William Hartnell and Patrick Troughton eras have been shown in colour. 🔷 This marks the second time the theme music has been used during a TV story, playing across the Doctor's Matrix mind-blow-up sequence. The first time was in The Woman Who Fell to Earth. 🔷 This story strongly implies that the faces in the mind battle with Morbius in The Brain of Morbius are incarnations of the Doctor, something long debated amongst fans, as these eight faces had not appeared since, with following stories seemingly debunking them. When The Doctor's regenerations are flashing through her mind, a sequence from the serial The Brain of Morbius: Part One (1976) is included, which showed regenerations of The Doctor that preceded the one played by William Hartnell. In the next serial, The Seeds of Doom: Part One (1976), it was established that Time Lords have only twelve regenerations, so that element of canon was discarded for 44 years until the revelations of this story made it possible for both serials to be accurate. 🔷 The Timeless Children made such a huge impact on the fandom as a whole that the episode made it into the satirical website News Thump. 🔷 The episode used an anagram for actor Sacha Dhawan on the Doctor Who website; "Barack Stemis" which, if re-arranged, becomes "Master is Back", and playing a false character called "Fakout". This tactic, discounting in-universe examples from 2007's Utopia/The Sound of Drums/Last of the Time Lords, has not been seen on television since The King's Demons in 1983. Back then it was used in the credits of the episode. Another more recent example is Mark Gatiss being credited, in the old tradition, as Sam Kisgart, for his role as a parallel universe Master, though this was more of a tongue-in-cheek reference to the classic trope than a genuine attempt at audience subterfuge. 🔷 This story is the third consecutive finale for an even-numbered season to feature both the Master and the Cybermen, following Death in Heaven and The Doctor Falls. 🔷 In the scene corresponding to the point where Tecteun's male incarnation stands alongside two other Time Lords in full high-collared regalia, the episode's script release mentions that "we can assume [the other two] might be Rassilon and Omega". 2nd assistant director Mark Corden cast himself as the Omega stand-in and hired a Don Warrington lookalike to play Rassilon, in homage to Warrington's portrayal of Rassilon in Big Finish. 🔷 Similar to Hell Bent, this story takes place primarily on Gallifrey and is the second season finale for its respective Doctor. 🔷 In a roundabout way, this episode also provides a televised fulfilment of the "Cartmel Masterplan". (The original plan for the show before it went on hiatus after season 26 until coming back in 2005) 🔷 The premise of this episode also fulfils several elements of the Hybrid prophecy from Season 9. A hybrid creature (the Spy Master had merged with the Cyberium), would stand over the ruins of Gallifrey and unravel the Web of Time (the Master had hacked into the Matrix), breaking a billion billion hearts to heal its own (the Master had also slaughtered the Time Lords after he became distraught at learning the truth of their origins). 🔷 This story is the third to feature multiple on-screen regenerations, following Planet of the Spiders and Twice Upon a Time, and the first such story in which the then-current incarnation of the Doctor is not among those shown to regenerate. 🔷 Early versions of this story referred to Ashad as the 'Cyberzealot', like the previous two episodes, and swapped the roles of Ryan and Yaz. Additionally, the death particle would have been created by the Cyberzealot as a mercy to kill humanity in the event of losing to the Cybermen. (DWM 570 supplement) On production documents, the Fugitive Doctor was named as Ruth, the Master as O, and Gallifrey as the village of Gilfach Goch in south Wales to disguise their real identities. (DWM 570 supplement) 🔷 When the Master requests an alliance with the Cyberium, he references the TV show The Apprentice, claiming he "deserves to be its business partner, because he has performed well in all the tasks", which was a common excuse used to become Lord Sugar's business partner. 🔷 When introducing the 'Cyber-Masters', The Master says: "For Gallifrey. For the Time Lords. For the end of the universe itself." This mirrors Lord President Rassilon at the end of The End of Time: Part One (2009) declaring: "For Gallifrey. For victory. For the end of time itself." 🔷 The Doctor and The Master arrive upon the desolate ruins of Gallifrey and the Master says, Look upon my works, Doctor, and despair". In 1818, Percy Bysshe Shelley wrote the sonnet 'Ozymandias' which contained the line, "My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings; Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair." The Doctor had met Shelley in The Haunting of Villa Diodati (2020).

Calvin Severo Panho

Hey, just want to be on the record that Rose i love talking WHO with Rosie! Sorry if it looks like we are fighting, but i love her opinions even when we disagree! She's the best, i'm really sorry if i made it look like a fight! We agree on most, i believe! Also, my name is on the video <3!

Calvin Severo Panho

I want to make a few points here, some are my opinion, some are just general information: - Yes, as on the facts, this is not the first time it was implied that there were out of regeneration "doctors", but it's the first time in New Who! And it was properly ignored ever since, just like the doctor saying he is half human in the TV Movie... - For me, saying that William Hartnell's (or his kid version that shows up in "listen" for a scene) doctor is not the first one is really offensive. Adding backstory that changes the lore of an almost 60-year series is terrible, but it's worst that it's for no reason other than for Chibnall to have something impactful in his run... - Yes, Chibnall returned for a third (reduced because of covid) season, BUT... He always spoke about having a 5 year and done run of doctor who, and yes, he ended up staying for 5 years, but because of Covid... 3 seasons without covid would take 3 to 5 years, so, even if it's not a fact, you can theorize he got out before the plan... Maybe he was fired, that was a lot of people saying at the time, perhaps he got tired of the backlash and resigned, i don't know... but i'm pretty sure he got in with the plan of more than 31 episodes! - I won't waste hours searching for it, i was talking about this with Rosie on the discord some time ago, but, in 2020 during covid, they made some watch together parties on Twitter with Moffat and RTD live tweeting, and, during the 50th anniversary episode (The Day of The Doctor), during the scene where "no, sir, all 13!" doctors save Gallifrey together, Moffat tweeted that, and i'll say from memory, "this scene is a lot less impactful now that we know there are other 50 doctors that should have shown up". - After that both RTD and Moffat defended the timeless child as a bold idea, but at the time some PEOPLE SPECULATED that was the time RTD decided to return to doctor who, something he denied afterward... - I obviously can't prove that, but, i am pretty certain that the timeless child is the most controversial plot in doctor who's history, or, at least, in modern who... It's been years and just need to tweet the words "The Timeless Child" and watch the world burn! - Again... Chibnall did this story line and it server for no purpose in the future AT ALL... In a few episodes, there's a "we'll forget about this and never speak of it again" and that's that! - Boy, i hate this! Ok, i'm going to watch Heartstopper to feel better now!

Rosie Batey(DarthYoda066)

Yes Greg yes! it literally doesn’t effect anything at all which is why I can’t wrap my head around the pure vitriol people have for this episode and change to the lore, legitimately nothing changes to the 60 years of the show the doctor had their mind wiped and got sent to childhood again and that is where the first Doctor begins his life and the show continues as it did from an unearthly child right up to current day, “THE DOCTOR” is not the doctor (literally in the 50th anniversary the entire point is that they chose the name the doctor and stand for the ideals of the character and that’s what we see for the whole show) the person they were before being the doctor is the timeless child and a recruit of the division (but again they had their memory completely wiped of all of this so it makes zero difference other than to expand story possibilities, give a layer to explore for the Doctor to unpack, and further expand lore that is literally all this arc does. It is also literally what the show was about to do in the late 80’s if it hadn’t been cancelled so why is it such a massive deal 40 years later 🫠 And just for the record as you mentioned in the reaction opinions could differ depending on if you’ve only watched new who or both classic and new who. I’m currently half way through classic who so season 13 so my perspective is as a fan of classic who and new who 👌

Rosie Batey(DarthYoda066)
>>110742436

But why does that ruin it for you, it is William Hartnells Doctor as a child in that episode and it may not be the first body but it’s the first version of the Doctor and is where all their memories start, the moment is still impactful in that episode even with the lore drop. I’ve already discussed the cartmel plan etc in my other comment. Again I disagree about that scene being less impactful, there may be 15,20,50 etc versions of “the Doctor” out there but the point is they aren’t the Doctor they haven’t had the signal from 10 and 11 and they aren’t involved with saving gallifrey and in their timeline gallifrey being destroyed doesn’t occur until 900+ years after they get their memory wiped so no they aren’t going to be in that scene so it should only be the 13 we see on screen. Again speculation not an actual fact and if RTD is telling people that that’s not the reason then chances are that’s not the reason and people need to stop projecting onto him. And yes you are correct it’s the most controversial plot in dr who but it really shouldn’t be. For your last point I genuinely hope that RTD has a storyline about the division just to see what happens and if people will have the same uproar. Also heartstopper is fantastic and I really can’t wait for season 2 😫💜

Rosie Batey(DarthYoda066)
>>110736405

Aye we vehemently disagree about this arc and I think some of 13s era and chibnalls writing but overall we are both just fans of the show and having a discussion so no fighting just differing opinions. 👌💜

Arifur R

I think the reason this episode doesn't work for me is I just don't feel like anything clicks structurally. None of the stakes matter and none of the supporting cast contribute anything. The Doctor doesn't need to make the sacrifice, finding out about that Timeless Child doesn't actually do anything, and Ashad becomes a non-entity. It just felt like Chibnall didn't wanna deal with anything he set up and it makes everything unsatisfying. Also I just think the Timeless Child is a dumb twist itself. Idk, I can't stand this episode.

Calvin Severo Panho
>>110742436

Ok, so... First, Heartstopper: YES, I LOVE! I loved the comics for years and i was SOOOO worried it would be shitty, but is actually GREAT... Even behind the scenes, they are all lovely, i LOVE Joe and Bash! Ok, back to Doctor Who: For me is all about identity... I'll quote from my favorite episode: " I'm the Doctor. I'm a Time Lord. I'm from the planet Gallifrey in the Constellation of Kasterborous. I'm 903 years old and I'm the man who is gonna save your lives and all 6 billion people on the planet below. You got a problem with that?" - Now he/she is not a Time Lord anymore; - Now he/she is not from Gallifrey in the Constellation of Kasterborous anymore; - Now he/she is not 903 YO at that point anymore; - Now he/she is not even The Doctor anymore... Just a fragment! Me being Calvin Severo Panho, from Porto Alegre, Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil, is part of who i am... If one day the government called me and told me "you're French, here's a baguette". I'd be in crisis! Now we are not watching the Doctor's only timeline anymore, we are watching a random one that someone selected for us to watch... Maybe if Verity Lambert passed on Doctor Who all those years ago, we would now be watching a Ruth 11th doctor regenerating into Joanna Lumley, IDK! At this point, it gets as low stakes as the MCU... Ohh, Doctor Strange died? We have more 3, no problems! Gamora went down the mountain? Here's her from 2 years ago, you're fine! Also, one big point of Doctor Who is that the Doctor was never special, he was not important, he was just a random Time Lord that got bored and curious... He stole a TARDIS and went to wonder all of time and space... Not there is a whole species that only exists BECAUSE of him... He's a GOD! His blood is on the veins of every gallyfreian and they are only that powerfull BECAUSE of the Doctor! He is NOT your ordinary guy anymore... And that changes everything... Now, more than ever, he is death, destroyer of worlds!

Calvin Severo Panho
>>110742436

And about this: "Again speculation not an actual fact and if RTD is telling people that that’s not the reason then chances are that’s not the reason and people need to stop projecting onto him. " I'm pretty sure i was pretty clear about what is my opinion and what is public speculation, if not, please let me know and i'll edit!

Rosie Batey(DarthYoda066)
>>110742436

I feel I cover the majority of this in my other comment 👌 I can agree with your criticism of how it changes how the doctor is special to a certain extent but again I feel like that’s covered in the other comment, “The Doctor” is still special for this reason as that is what made him special, the actual being that the doctor is however yes it does make them a bit OP which yes solves the whole limited regen thing but as you say does make them pretty much a god to the time lords and shobogans (her blood is only in the time lords/the people inside the citadel, those outside the citadel are still ordinary shobogans and don’t have the ability to regenerate) I would argue they are the ordinary guy still as that’s what the doctor is and represents and if they were to let the timeless child stuff become who they are then they would start to go down the timelord victorious/vale yard route and cease to be the Doctor

Calvin Severo Panho
>>110742436

Yeah... That's the point where we can just disagree and move on, haha That's far too important for me, and it's not a big deal for you! And that's ok!

Tori Jeri

this episode started a war in the fandom haha. i personally think it opens up a LOT of potential storylines and plots for the future. i personally don’t mind it and it’s also the episode that made me really like Sacha’s master! i’m not a huge chibnall fan but it’s not because of this story line which i think is what most people say when they’re explaining why they don’t like him. for me it’s more like story structure and the way they’re wrapped up that bugs me. but this is one of the episodes where i felt it fit better

William Tanner

I have seen all of classic, all of modern, and hundreds of audios from big finish and I actually quite like the timeless children arc and the additions it makes to the lore. Honestly people make it into such a big thing and it really isn’t I think it adds depth to the origins of the time lords and makes sense considering they have always been dicks in all mediums. Idk I just liked the idea.

Logan

My take: This is a great Timelord episode and a bad Doctor episode. I can't stand The Doctor being special for what she is rather than what she does. When The Doctor was the "Last of the Timelords", that made the character similarly "special" but the prime difference to me is being the last timelord had emotional and narrative weight to it that really worked for me AND it came about through The Doctor's actions. The Doctor being the Timeless Child does absolutely nothing for me and makes my head scrambled trying to even fit this into the established lore I came to learn and love over the years as a Who fan. (Yes the lore is wobbly, and I think this arc can have a place in the show, but not as a mainline story imo.)

Andrew

I LOVE this episode, and what it does for the canon. It changes nothing, but adds SO much more mystery and possibility. We're back to where we were in 1963 - Doctor *WHO*?

Ani

hmm... I'm kinda really glad that I didn't watch this 2 months ago because Rosie is too sweet for me to get into an argument with her because this "plot twist" has me boiling. I'm not gonna go into it 'cause a) 2 months late b) it's enough for me to know it doesn't work for ME and c) Calvin basically hit most of my points. Plus I just don't think this is a very well constructed episode and there are several out of characters scenes for multiple characters in it. And for people saying it changes nothing I have two notes a) if it changes nothing WHY WOULD YOU DO IT?! what is then the point of it? and b) I think we have a different definitions of nothing.

The Watcher

Apparently Matt Smith sneaked into Amy + Rory's bunk on thier wedding night and injected "Time Lord" DNA into them... thus Melody Pond was born! (Prolonged exposure to the Time Vortex... nope that don't work anymore). Oh and Matt Smith's ultimate sacrifice on Trenzalore.... Nah he could've regenerated the whole time! Second Cycle of Regenerations... pffftt as if! Didn't need it! The Time War? A billion billion Daleks fighting to destroy Gallifrey and all of reality itself... Nah The Master can do it on a random Tuesday afternoon. So creative! "Never be cruel, Never be cowardly, never give up and never give in..." Eh, nah Ko Sharmus can press the "big red button". Who cares? Makes a complete mockery to most of the Eleventh Doctor's era in my eyes, let alone the history of the classic show.

The Adopted Whovian
>>116911420

That first point, no, it was made clear that the potential for the ability to regenerate was there in River which the Silence worked hard on bringing out, or maybe some excess regeneration from previous regenerations floating around the TARDIS latched onto River when she was conceived, there are explanations. And Steven Moffat has said that he likes the Timeless Child so if he's fine with it then it's fine. The Timeless Child doesn't make a mockery of the classic show, it literally builds on classic series ideas like the Doctor having Pre-Hartnell lives, being a Time Lord Founder and not being native to Gallifrey. And the ultimate sacrifice the Doctor made on Trenzalore does still work because when the Doctor was mind-wiped they were also regressed to a child, so it would be a bit suspicious if they still had their native biology, so logically they would've been limited to just 12 regenerations and changed into a Gallifreyan. And the difference between the Daleks and Master is that the Master is a Time Lord and so has access to weapons they didn't, and would also come as an unexpected out of nowhere surprise to them. And with the Doctor letting Ko Sharmus sacrifice himself, there is many examples in New and Old Who when the Doctor lets people sacrifice themselves, remember that the Doctor isn't perfect and trips up sometimes, as 'Doctor' is a code and promise they follow and aspire to. Ko Sharmus didn't give the Doctor a choice in the matter anyway, she knew that he wouldn't be persuaded otherwise.