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THE USUAL SUSPECTS (1995) (Patreon)

Published:
2022-08-13 19:00:04
Imported:
2023-01

Content

Full link: https://youtu.be/JGozvtP-DBc

Aaah, some good old crime movie! These are honestly my favourite and this one was so so good. 

Files

Comments

Tyler Foster

I personally find "separate the art from the artist" in terms of bad behavior in people's personal lives to be an untenable philosophy, because it makes it sound simple. However, thinking about it just a little bit makes it clear how complex this is. Obviously, there is some art that is probably inessential. Ghost Dad, for example, a silly and widely-panned comedy starring Bill Cosby -- no one is going to be disappointed if you refuse to watch it. Or what about movies you've already watched or watch without knowing a person's history, like you and Kevin Spacey? Or people who have not yet committed whatever crime, or we simply don't know about it? People who are alive versus people who are dead? The degree to the involvement of the person who did something wrong? So on and so forth. That said, I think the truth is that people automatically parse this stuff. Maybe there is someone who has or will do something that you find too upsetting to watch their work, which is fine. You wanted to watch this one, you knew about Spacey's behavior, and you still enjoyed the movie. I feel like "separating the art from the artist" implies establishing a wall between those two elements, when the reality is most people can just hold two things in their mind at once. Plus, the movie is already made. It exists, and people will watch it regardless. It's not much different from movies that contain other controversial elements, like something that we would now recognize as bigoted. Everyone has their own instinctive lines they will or won't cross and I don't think it reflects upon you as a person in any way. At some point I plan to choose Miller's Crossing, which will give you more time with Gabriel Byrne, who plays Keaton in this, and which is another great crime thriller with double-crosses and twists. I also know you saw the 2019 Little Women. Little Women has been adapted into movies multiple times, and in one of them, the 1994 version, he played Bhaer, the professor that Jo (Saoirse Ronan in the 2019 movie, Winona Ryder in the 1994 version) is attracted to.

Brian Jones
>>89548529

I think with matters like this you just have strict separation between the art and the artists creating it. Let's be honest here, if you were to choose only to watch Hollywood TV/Films where "saintly" or "moral" people were the only ones involved in the production, your options would be limited across the board. That place is a cesspool of immoral atrociousness and debauchery, and it has been for almost a century... lol

Anonymous
>>89548529

"That place is a cesspool of immoral atrociousness and debauchery, and it has been for almost a century." Gimme a break. EVERY institution is a cesspool of immoral atrociousness and debauchery and has been forever. Not just show business. Everything from political institutions, religious institutions, corporate culture, financial institutions, educational institutions, the military, corporate media, professional sports etc. But you're right. You'd have very little to watch if you always take the "moral high ground" before watching any film and TV show.

Eric
>>89548529

My easy guideline is: 1 - does enjoying it actively, financially, support the person who doesn't deserve your support? If you already own the Harry Potter books, or a dvd with Spacey in it, then throwing it away, refusing to read/watch it again, is performative; go ahead and do it if you feel compelled to do so, but I don't think you should feel compelled to do so. And 2 - do you still enjoy it? If you still enjoy it and you aren't financially supporting the bad person, then have at it. If the bad person prevents you from actively enjoying it, then there's your answer. Of course, yeah, it's thorny because there are so many people involved in most of these that you can try to justify being allowed to enjoy it despite the involvement of somebody like Spacey or Depp or Leto or whomever. My guideline there is simply that, as a general rule, I'm not going to support anything with them in it after the fact; movies that came out prior to us all learning about their behavior is... not necessarily grandfathered in, but I'll judge it less harshly for that.

Tyler Foster
>>89548529

"I think with matters like this you just have strict separation between the art and the artists creating it." But that was my point: you don't. Mary is aware of who Spacey is and she liked the movie. I think that's also true of most people here. On top of that, I'm sure many are aware that director Bryan Singer can also be added to that list, who is also accused of similar crimes. I think the idea of separating art and artist is mostly imaginary. If you know the person's wrongdoing, then I think the truth is that it is simply very easy to think someone is a bad person AND they made a good movie at the exact same time, and it's not like anyone actually EXCLUSIVELY thinks about one or the other at separate times. And again, as I said, this is NOT a judgment -- I think that's totally fine, and more truthful to admit we all have our own lines as to what is and isn't still worth engaging with if someone has tainted it. Whether your answer is "always" or "never" or one of infinite variables in-between, it seems normal to behave that way. This comment was also a reminder that I was going to add another thing and forgot: art and artist are also naturally inseparable, because artists consciously or subconsciously put themselves into their work. Obviously, moreso when you're the writer and/or director than if you're a grip or a PA, but everyone still makes choices based on their own set of values and instincts and beliefs and desires, so even if we're talking about the most sanitized piece of corporate garbage, there will still be some choices in there that were made specifically because certain people worked on it. Frankly, the truth is that people who need to separate art from the artist are generally fans of people who are NOT accused of wrongdoing, because that will prevent them from looking like a fool if those people turn out to be not so great.

Eric

That's Giancarlo Esposito! The first few times he was on, I was thinking: that dude reminds me of Giancarlo Esposito. I suppose that's why.

Eric
>>89553580

Speaking of: Chazz Palmintieri, aka Dave Kujan, is also in "Poolhall Junkies" which is a really enjoyable movie. Definitely an under-the-radar gem.

Anonymous
>>89548529

Just a small list of media you'd have to avoid if you don't separate the art from the artist: Lawrence of Arabia, The Bridge on the River Kwai, On the Waterfront - Sam Spiegel was a casting couch producer The Usual Suspects, Se7en, American Beauty - Kevin Spacey was metoo'd The Treasure of the Sierra Madre, In Cold Blood - cuz Robert Blake is a murderer The Naked Gun movies, The Towering Inferno - cuz that jerk O.J. is dragging his feet trying to find the REAL murderer! Why doesn't he spend the money to hire a private dick to solve the case? Maybe he doesn't want to find the perp and get justice for Nicole. What's with that guy? The Searchers, Stagecoach, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, Rio Bravo - John Wayne apparently held white supremacy beliefs The Godfather, Apocalypse Now, On the Waterfront, A Streetcar Named Desire, Superman - Marlon Brando was metoo'd Spartacus, Paths of Glory, Ace in the Hole - Kirk Douglas due to rumors of what he allegedly did to Natalie Wood Deadpool, Deadpool 2, Silicon Valley - T.J. Miller was metoo'd Boyz n the Hood, A Few Good Men, Jerry Maguire, American Crime Story - John Singleton, Cuba Gooding Jr. were metoo'd It's a Wonderful Life, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, Vertigo, Rear Window, The Philadelphia Story, Harvey, Anatomy of a Murder - Jimmy Stewart was allegedly racist Dr. Strangelove, The Hustler, Patton, The Hospital - George C. Scott was an alleged wife beater The Terminator, Terminator 2, Predator, Total Recall - Arnold got metoo'd The Shawshank Redemption, Glory, Million Dollar Baby, The Dark Knight trilogy - Morgan Freeman was metoo'd Jaws, Close Encounters, American Graffiti - Richard Dreyfuss was metoo'd Chinatown, Rosemary's Baby, The Pianist - cuz ya know The Graduate, All the President's Men, Straight Time, Tootsie, Midnight Cowboy, Rain Man, Kramer vs. Kramer - Dustin Hoffman was metoo'd Any movie associated with the Weinsteins and Miramax All Christian Bale movies cuz of his "hostile family relations" All Pixar movies - John Lasseter was metoo'd All Tom Cruise movies due to his association with and perpetuation of his murderous cult Do the Right Thing, Malcolm X, BlacKkKlansman - Cuz what about the idiots who claim Spike Lee is racist against white people in his movies? Gotta respect their sensitivities too! All Tom Hanks movies - cuz what about the QAnon folks who think he's a pedo? All Dave Chappelle content Every Hitchcock film Every Kubrick film And we barely scratched the surface here which is why I separate the art from the artist.

Tyler Foster
>>89548529

Well, now you're introducing obvious straw men. As I've said, you have all of this information. This stuff is still in your head. Liking the movie independently of that is not actual separation, IMO. You like the movie, AND you know this stuff: both things can be and are true at once. Claiming to separate them feels like an unnecessary additional bit of effort. I don't see what the purpose is of claiming you separate them, because not separating them does not mean you aren't allowed to like the movies, or that you shouldn't watch them. I guess I'm not sure what your point is.

Travis

You still haven’t watched Memento right?? That one will have you on the edge of your seat similar to this.

Mr. Writhms
>>89548529

Even Mary had an Only Fans channel. Are we to judge her by this and stop watching her reactions?! I think NOT! LOL... True story.

Eric

The only way he knows how to lie is, like... reading stuff directly in front of his face? It's just SO silly. His name is "Redfoot", and "Kobayashi"? Why not just Jeff? Or Michael? Like... it's just a really really weird, silly, silly way to lie.

Tyler Foster
>>89555545

The way Spacey plays it, I imagine it's like a game to Soze. He's having fun essentially mocking Agent Kujan.

Anonymous

This makes me that much more excited for you to see Memento.

Brian Jones
>>89548529

But see, that's the problem, you don't know and likely never will. Are you never going to watch a Mirimax production again? Never suggest Good Will Hunting as a great film to watch? There are thousands of people involved in any single production of TV or Film. I'd say the likelihood of at least one of them being involved in some nefarious activity is pretty damn high. And you don't have the slightest clue where every penny of every ticket/rental purchase of any of these products is going. Which points on which production were awarded to who. The things @Rustin Cohle mentioned just happen to be a paltry few that we actually know about. So either you separate it (mentally forgive it/put it out of your mind for the sake of enjoyment), or you just don't watch any of it. And yeah, as sleazy as politics, religion, and any other number of things can be, Hollywood has still EASILY set the high bar over the last century. Hollywood has it all, from pedophilia, to drug use and abuse, to rape, and any other thing you could possibly imagine. And despite the amount of stories (true or untrue) that are coming out now, you can be damn sure there are a hundredfold that will never see the light of day.

Tyler Foster
>>89548529

Except, again, you don't. If it's in your mind, any barrier you build between yourself and that information is made up. It's not like you *actually* forget that Spacey or whoever else is not a good guy. And beyond that, I don't know who would benefit even if you could do this. Nobody is making you mentally cordon off someone's bad behavior, or forgive it (which I am actively opposed to). It's not necessary in order to *also* enjoy the movie, because watching a movie is unrelated to that person's behavior. You aren't endorsing them or their acts. So why pretend you're cleanly placing their bad deeds in one box and the movie in another? It makes no sense to me, in both the practical sense that I think it's not really what people do, and in the sense that I don't know who it would be for.

Brian Jones
>>89558850

Seconded. I keep seeing it mentioned, and I've mentioned it many times myself. Hopefully she gets to it soon.

Bryan Tuck

A couple other crime movies you might enjoy: A SIMPLE PLAN (1998) - an underrated "good-people-doing-bad-things" thriller SNATCH (2000) - a very funny British crime comedy

Brian Jones
>>89548529

"It's not like you *actually* forget that Spacey or whoever else is not a good guy." You do for the few hours you're entrenched in the film. That's the whole point. When it's a performance as good as his it certainly does make you forget. Did Mary appear to you to be dwelling on Spacey's bad deeds throughout the entire film? Or just at the beginning when she mentioned it? Did it appear to you that it made her enjoy the film less by the end? She seemed overjoyed with it. That's the art speaking. "You aren't endorsing them or their acts." Of course not. That's why this entire conversation (along with most of cancel culture in general) is a pretty ridiculous notion. You can hold the person responsible for their reprehensible acts by legal means or whatever, and may very well be personally disgusted by them, but to act like the world is some black and white place where people are just evil or good is both naïve and pointless. Every person is shades of grey responsible for both good and bad. It's very rare to run across someone who's 100% either way. It's quite often we end up finding out people trying to cancel careers or the entire past of some people end up being just as dirty as the people they are trying to cancel. "So why pretend you're cleanly placing their bad deeds in one box and the movie in another?" Because you are. You're actively putting aside your feelings regarding their behavior in their personal life in favor of enjoying a piece of work they were in, and even their performance in it. That's exactly what it is. Doesn't mean you're condoning their outside of work behavior, but you are in fact putting it aside. I don't have any problem at all saying Kevin Spacey is an absolutely amazing actor who has brought some of the most memorable performances to screen over the years. I can still enjoy those performances. I also don't have any problem at all saying he's certainly got issues in his personal life that look (at least on the surface) to be pretty damn sleazy. And we didn't even bring up Bryan Singer. Talk about your skeletons, that closet is fully loaded. LOL.

Brian Jones
>>89559558

Inside Man (2006) is another one I would certainly add to that list as well.

Tyler Foster
>>89548529

"Did Mary appear to you to be dwelling on Spacey's bad deeds throughout the entire film? Or just at the beginning when she mentioned it? Did it appear to you that it made her enjoy the film less by the end? She seemed overjoyed with it. That's the art speaking." I mean, I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this, so this is where I'm going to leave it, but: my whole POV is that this is just not how most people's train of thought works. I do not think her not mentioning it after the beginning means she never thought about it again, nor that thinking about it has anything to do with with whether or not she enjoyed the movie. That was my point from the beginning. I do not think you HAVE to stop thinking about these things to like a movie. There is no reason they would be mutually exclusive. I can think he's a piece of shit and like things about the movie, even things about his performance, at the exact same moment. Maybe she thought about it two, five, ten, twenty times throughout the movie. Maybe she didn't. I don't think either scenario has anything to do with how much she liked the film. I know I thought about it plenty of times on and off during the rewatch, and the rewatch was enjoyable. Also, I did actually bring up Bryan Singer, in the comment before Rustin's big list.

PickettsChargingPort

It's a shame GoT stole the fake handicap bit from this movie. It probably lessened the impact.

PIG

I would suggest L.A. Confidential for a crime noir. The Usual Suspects was my favorite film growing up but now, that I'm older, I think L.A. Confidential is overall a better movie. I think it's Spacey's best performance too, except for maybe his role as Frank Underwood.

PIG
>>89577350

Yes. Totally. A great reaction film too.

Anonymous

My pick for a crime movie would be Searching (2018)

Don Mayhem

Haven't seen the movie, but I know the ending because of all different top 10 videos. But I'll still check it out even though I know how it ends

Anonymous

Baby Driver (2017) might be good a good crime film also. Has Kevin Spacey and was written & directed by Edgar Wright (Shaun of the Dead, Hot Fuzz)

Mike LL
>>89577212

Absolutely there is no comparison. L. A. Confidential is a much better movie across the board in every category, the only category that this movie is in with LA C is the script.