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Howdy. Maybe y'all can help me with an issue I've been having. Pandora, Cupcake, and Moondancer are friends.....or at least, they're supposed to be friends. But I think I dropped the ball there, despite some of my best efforts, a casual visitor to my gallery could easily miss the fact that these three are friends. Don't like that. So how do I flesh out their friendship? How do I show how close they were in their youth, before Moondancer went the edgelord route? This has been frustrating me for a while, I see I made a similar discussion post about a year ago. I'd sure appreciate some advice. What would you all like to see from this trio?


notes and random musings:

-All three members of the trios are social outcasts in one way or another, which is why they stick together. Cupcake doesn't stand out among her friendlier and brighter family members, and is often written off as dull, cold, or even creepy, what with her monotone voice and subdued emotional range. Pandora is of course a giant volatile chaos-engine full of terrible ideas and not enough brain cells. Moondancer is actually pretty normal and well-adjusted, but rather aloof and cold. With somewhat typical unicorn snobbery, he views friendship largely as a waste of time, and prefers to spend his time studying and dancing. He is often embarrassed of his friendship with Pan and Cupcake, but ultimately grateful for their company.

-Pandora is clingy af with her friends because she doesn't have many. She is not well-liked, and every relationship she has outside of family meant she had to basically annoy herself into a pony's good graces....even her friendship with Cupcake began that way. She is deeply afraid of losing the ponies she cares about, which means she's often willing to put up with being mistreated, or willing to contort herself into what she thinks ponies want her to be. Cupcake recognizes this desperation and earnestness in her friend and thus feels a deep sense of protection and loyalty to Pan. Moondancer too recognizes Pan's desperation, but is put off by it, and mostly views Pan as a sort of pity friend.

-Moondancer and Cupcake genuinely enjoy each other's company. That's not to say Moony doesn't also view Cupcake as a weird pity friend, just that he likes her okay. She reminds him of Maudie, and so he values Cupcake's advice and dry humor, even if her dogged attachment to Pan leaves him perplexed. Cupcake loves Moondancer and feels the same protective instinct toward him as she feels for her family and Pan, though she likes Moony best when he drops the conceited attitude and shows his sweeter, dorky side. Cupcake is very fond of dorks.

-Cupcake and Pan are best friends. Pandora's flaws humanize her to Cupcake, and Cupcake is drawn to her not out of pity, but out of a sort of kindred longing. Cupcake likes Pan's goofiness, her harebrained schemes, her wild energy. It's familiar to Cupcake and feels like home. Pan has always made an effort to include Cupcake, has always deemed Cupcake's ideas brilliant, is never not happy to see Cupcake....even if Cupcake is dull and not especially creative and unable to contribute much. Cupcake is grateful for this, and although she's not great at expressing the tender way she feels about Pan, she is unflinchingly loyal to her best friend, to the very end. 

-Dropped the ball demonstrating that Cupcake feels plain and uninteresting, especially next to Pandora. Considering retconnining Cupcake's baking abilities....maybe she can follow a recipe okay, but her treats always taste bland? Like they're missing something. That could contribute to Cupcake's dissatisfaction with her place in the world and her decision to become a royal guard...... 

- I think I got so caught up teasing goofy sexual tension between Pan and Moondancer that I forgot to actually give them a reason to be friends, or for Moony to even like Pan, OOPS. Pan of course likes Moondancer because he's somewhat tolerant of her, which earns him her undying friendship in her love-starved kitty brain. Moondancer likes Pan....because deep down, he admires her bravery. Yes she's loud and cringy and annoying, but she is rarely anything less than her unabashed self.....while Moondancer struggles to express his true self. Moondancer envies Pan not just for her power, but for her freedom to be goofy and weird and fun. Pandora is fun....and sometimes she can convince Moony to relax a smidgen and have a little fun himself. This is why he likes Pan. It's also why he comes to love her, and is conflicted af about that, because on one hand he looks down on Pan, and on the other, he secretly admires her. Basically he's just as dumb as she is but unaware of the fact

(I dropped the ball demonstrating the whole "Moony secretly looks up to Pan" thing. How do I fix that?)

-Pandora loves Cupcake and Moondancer and considers them her very best friends in the world, often dismissing Moondancer's aloofness, or making up excuses why he doesn't want to hang out. I can't stress enough that Pan genuinely deeply admires both ponies, and is their biggest cheerleader. She genuinely thinks Cupcake is the greatest baker in the world, and also funny, smart, strong, dependable, and also gorgeous (Wherever did Cuppy get the idea she was plain?). She thinks Moony is a fantastic dancer and capable of anything he puts his mind to. Moondancer views these sentiments as insincere, or even mocking, while Cupcake just flat out doesn't believe Pan, though she appreciates the effort. Both ponies would be immensely flustered to learn Pan really, really does mean what she says.

Pan is secretly in love with Cupcake, in a way that is slightly unhealthy (so love-starved), but also incredibly genuine and true. Too often I've made it seem like Pan is simply physically attracted to Cupcake, but its deeper than that, Pan can (and does) write sonnets about why she loves Cupcake. Pandora's feelings for Moondancer are more ambiguous and difficult for her to sort out (because Moony is an ass too often), but are likely noooot entirely platonic. Pan pursues neither of these relationships because she's terrified of messing things up with her dear friends (Pan still hasn't forgiven herself over how badly she torpedoed her budding relationship with Magnolia May).

Rambling aside, I guess I'm asking what y'all want to see out of this friendship? Do you have any suggestions about how to depict their complicated bond? What scenes would you like to see?


Comments

Eraelias

I dont have any specific ideas, but when it comes to on screen friendships I always love to see how much they care/would do for each other. How they react to eachother when embarrassed/hurt/tired etc. how do they hang out together in their free time. Sorry if thats not much help ;-;

Anonymous

I often like to think of friendship dynamics by starting at a location. Specifically, what is a group of friends' "spot" or their go-to hangout location. Is it the library? An empty classroom? A store or Cafe? Some place in a park or in nature? For these three dorks, I can see a secluded place like a rooftop or balcony as a prime spot for hangouts, goofs, and cries. That's just me though :)

Anonymous

You do draw them hanging out as friends sometimes but I think to really explain how they care about eachother, you need to show that in a scene. Show don’t tell is a helpful writing tool I also struggle with. If Moondancer is dorky, maybe have a scene of him being dorky and sweet with Cupcake. Maybe they try baking together? Where they can just be kids having a good time with eachother.

Anonymous

I think you should show more of them spending group quality time together when they were younger, i think the pic you made of them going to a concert one time was a good start but Mooney wasnt enjoying it as much so something they could all enjoy equally! As for the romantic aspects on both sides there has to be a point of geniune heart to hearts, I think the side of the relationship that we havent seen much of is pans feeling for Mooney, her and cupcake feel natural attached at the hip! But moondancer hasnt shown pan much kindness and that needs to be seen! Just my half asleep thoughts Tho....

Amaris

I would really like to see more between the cousin relationship of Cupcake and Moondancer. Maybe one of those awkward family dinners/get togethers where the kids hang out because neither want to be there lol.

Emma Breslauer

Well, there's a lot of contradictions in the Pandora/Moondancer friendship which could be where some of the confusion is coming from. He pities her, but also looks up to her. He finds her mannerisms offputting but is also in love with her but is in denial about it. How much of these characteristics are leftovers from earlier versions of these characters and what can be pruned or reworked? Take a look at their relationship from start to finish: How did they feel about each other when they first met? What does their friendship look like on a really good day? What does it look like on a really bad day? How does that dynamic change when Cupcake is there?

lopoddity

Good advice, I'll definitely think on it. :) Maybe the friendship feels insubstantial because I'm still trying to force a dynamic that doesn't feel natural, to cling to fragments of old characterization. Maybe the whole thing is due for a massive overhaul, like I've been doing with other character's personalities and relationships. Hmm. In any case, something definitely has to be done about Pan and Moondancer's relationship, you're right about the contradictions. Perhaps I'll remove the romance element......though after years of teasing it, I do wonder how retconning it won't make things even MORE confusing. Siiiiigh

Anonymous

Maybe all three of them have that one hobby or activity, they share. Something no one else has. I think that really ties together at the beginning of a friendship.

Scyllarus

Hm. When I think of friendship, I think mostly of comfort. Comfort to be myself, comfort to engage in hobbies or interests without being mocked, comfort to just hang out. I think that's why, for me, their friendships don't exactly parse - Cupcake loves Panny, and Moony loves Panny, and Panny loves Cupcake...there's a lot of romantic tension. There's a few pieces that show their friendship, ie, the concert and ones early in their childhood, but...idk. There's not a lot of talking about small things that worry them (ie, Moony's upcoming recital), or just doing things together (Maybe Cupcake is a very proficient baker...but not a creative one. She can make her Mama Pie's recipes perfectly, yet they still lack that magic that Pinkie gives them. Maybe Moony and Pan try to help from completely different angles - Moondancer suggests studying Pinkie's actual cupcakes and such to see what else she's adding or doing, Pan says "just be urself!!! I believe in u!!" And it sort of works out both ways because Cupcake figures out what it's like to steal like an artist), there's not even a lot of just hanging out. What's school like? What about that awkward preteen time where they're all experiencing hormones and no one knows how to do a date but Pan bought an issue of Cosmopolitan? I mean, eventually they start to experience Feelings and get all romantically constipated, but we never get to see them giggling about "50 ways to please your lover (Number 27 will shock you!)". You do such a great job in showcasing, say, the friendship inherent to Iri and Joey, or Smokey and Nix, I think it's just a matter of shifting the dynamics a bit to focus on where they're comfortable and supportive of each other, rather than the romantic tension.

Scyllarus

Oh, for Pan and Moony...I can feel that. I think it would be good to have multiple smaller scenes in their case - maybe when they're younger he's more willing to go along with their hare-brained schemes, but he does notice other ponies' stares whereas Pan just...never seems to. Eventually he starts refusing to join in, but still goes with them, and it hits him eventually (or someone else points out) that he looks miserable. Why is he miserable? Well...because he has to be around these clowns, duh! Except...he can't stop thinking about Pan's wild, joyous laughter. He can't stop thinking about how she's so...unafraid. She'll dance the flamenco badly with Cupcake in the mall, for Faust's sake, but he can't stop thinking of the smiles on their faces - Pan's wide and a little crazed, Cupcake's small and secret - and how miserable and small he felt next to them. He imagines himself dancing along with them - a real flamenco - and immediately shoves the thought away. He focuses on Pandora, looking for reasons to dislike her...and pretends that he doesn't envy her for that freedom, and that he doesn't have uncomfortable feelings about her...

Kyri Arriaga

Scyllarus, I enjoyed reading your ideas very much! I agree that Cupcake should continue to be a proficient (even fabulous) baker and appreciate your input on her lack of creativity. That fits her character wonderfully, imho. She loves to bake, but perhaps doesn't understand why people want the baked goods to look pretty when taste is the priority. She cares more about what's on the inside than outside. ;) She can't seem to make people see the importance of taste over showmanship. People always make comments like "Wow, this tastes divine, but Cupcake, dear, have you considered making the frosting a different color? Your mother always makes such...yadda yadda yadda." She can't seem to win while baking. There's always frickin' feedback rather than just pleasure for her work. She feels conflicted because her cutie mark is a cupcake...it's her name...the Universe wants her to be a baker, but she loves to fight. There's a beauty to it. The only feedback is about the principals that improve her form, which is important to succeeding in a fight. No one cares how "pretty" her tactics are, just how proficient. She also longs to protect Pan, so her love of another outweighs her love of baking, which is difficult cognitive dissonance to settle as an internal conflict. Frustration and concern for the one she loves could be what pushed her to become a guard. The resolution in these feelings could come when she realizes how someone can be an excellent baker and protector. What are the parallels between the baking process and the Art of War? Just brainstorming. :)

Kyri Arriaga

Yes, Daniela! I agree. We need scenes with dialogue full of subtext. Here's my idea: the three gather around a campfire as children at the cusp of their teens. They decide campfire songs are too "lame" now that they're older. So, Moondancer suggests they tell ghost stories. Pan wants to go frist and tells a dark legend of psychological horror. Eager to impress Pan, Moondancer brags he can tell a better one. (Women like to be bested, right? She'll be attracted to me if I'm better than her, yes?) A boy picking on his crush, he tells a harrowing story of a serial killer to spook the girls. Silence falls on the group, Panny looks wide-eyed and scared in spite of herself. Then, Cupcake, sounding half asleep, says "Very impressive, but have you tried making the story scary?" She proceeds to blow both of their stories out of the water, all in her endearing, monotone voice. Happy Halloween! 🖤🎃🖤

yaboyrobin

I'm not sure on the pan moondancer route, but moondancer and cupcake both seem to have issues involving their "destinies" (cutie marks). Maybe moon or cupcake comforting the other when they feel dejected towards their lot in life?

Jam Gram

this is just a pitch w some edits so if it doesn't work, apologies!: to me I think a part of all friendships is the ability to feel vulnerable safely? and that you admire something in the other party: I think Moony like, develops more and more into his insecurities which is why he has more and more trouble connecting safely with the two of them - I think its clear he sort of resents and is captivated by Pandora being able to drop and pick up all these abilities with raw power & finesse from his perspective, & I feel like he would look at her abilities and be frustrated on how her form is lacking , how close it is to being perfect & how only he (bc he takes it seriously) can see the inner beauty of the spell work & prob feel compelled to make everyone see it as the perfect way he can see , but I think it comes down too to him not understanding Pandora cannot be controlled, shes chaos & unbridled freedom. I think Pandora probably at her best with Moondancer lets him cut loose and actually be silly and mess up without concerns which I think is something he really craves, letting go of judgement and self consciousness (he is extremely controlled and practices if not physically than in his head a LOT even when he's doing something that seems spontaneous, he picked up the performer aspect from Trixie) but to me with bullying & his insecurities i can see it building up as he gets older and his relationship strains w Pandora because he's resentful of what he can't have that she has & how she can't see how to make it PERFECT (while he ignores her trials and "failures" ljke a princess coronation impacting her emotionally, and how much she's tried to be controlled) I feel like you could play up their classes w twilight more - I think it made them admire the other one and for Pandora made her want the control & grace he has (and moms praise) and he wanted her natural talent and raw ability which they both internalized but I think Moondancer grows to be a lot more angry abt it, Pandora internalizes it more I feel like Cupcake probably likes the same thing in Pandora- letting loose & being able to be less in her head running around with Pandora, esp as a kid once pandora started to become less clingy, I feel like Cupcake prob started to feel like a background character when Jam and PB arrived (she loves them ! but she found herself doing a lot of caretaking and behind the scenes work for raising them bc she found it easy to & before you know it, it was the niche she was in) and probably enjoyed the attention directly for her Pandora gave her that maybe she used to find annoying. She probably gets to try a lot of things because Pandora believes in her so confidently and its a chance for her to be creative which I think, especially in her family, she has never gotten much attention for- not deliberately held back from her but from Pandora (who is bad at lying) it never feels forced , her praise is always genuine. Plus managing stuff for Pandora was never boring and always made her think about how best to help her schemes, and as they grow they get closer and closer and have more and more reasons to enjoy the other bc their dynamic just WORKS I think Cupcake and Moondancer are just able to completely drop facades around each other because they've known the other one since they were so young and have similar energy levels and can Crack a wry joke and make observations and it really entertains the other - they both enjoy quieter activities and maybe Moondancer is originally the one to encourage Cupcake to continue trying at baking , because he wasn't good at magic at first but he got better & now he dazzles people, idk when he got his cutie mark but even so I think he values practice and would find the idea of giving up after one try laughable & she appreciates that. Cupcake to me feels like a character that is good at a lot of stuff but she doesn't just suddenly have the skill spontaneously, she works and struggles through it like we all learn a tough new skill, like her royal guard training, she got that through hard work , not aptitude. I feel like Moondancer is the type to give encouragement in a way that isn't hyping you up but more annoyance that his assumption about you was off base , and he sort of annoyedly manages to convince the other party they shouldn't quit bc ~Moondancer is surprised to learn you aren't brave enough to continue till you master it~ and maybe he was the one that instilled that first attempt in her to try until she succeeded . anyway those r my pitches haha

QuietZen

Not sure if this has been said yet, but maybe Moondancer starts to see Pan differently after Cupcake opened up to him one time, and told him what she honestly thought of Pan. I also like to think that Pandora secretly holds Moondancer up as a shining example of what a pony should be: graceful and strong and drop dead gorgeous. And Cupcake values that both let her be herself and gently push her to explore herself more.

Anonymous

Maybe tell some of their relationship bits from the perspective of other ponies/towns people. You say that they're sort of the social outcasts but are they really or do they just all view themselves that way? Since Ponyville in your canon (as far as I can tell) is pretty accepting of all different walks of life/species/lifestyles and so on, how is it that these three really are considered more outcast than anyone else? We don't really see much of the ramifications of Pandora's chaos, how people treat Cupcake different than the rest of her family or so on. We see how Moondancer is teased by Bruce; however, Bruce seems to be the minority in how he treats people. The vibe I get of them is more like "a ragtag gang of kids doing their own thing" and not necessarily the people who get odd looks because they're outcasts. Maybe making it more obvious how their environment has shaped their friendship? How would Moon feel if he saw/heard ponies reprimanding Pan for causing property damage with a stampede of hamsters (since her actions don't seem to have much consequence shown; even if she does fix her mistakes not everyone is so patient), or maybe outright judging her as a freak. How would Cupcake react to people giving her the side eye when she tries to be funny but cannot measure up? How would the folk of Canterlot or the Crystal Empire view the three of them if they planned a day trip there? Some things to explore how society sees them as truly different and worth paying less mind to.

tricoloryn

i remember a while ago you made a cute lil picture of the trio dressed as the princesses, maybe you could go revisit that and come up with some dialogue for it? the art is already made, so you'd be able to purely focus on a snippet of writing for the childhood side of their friendship dynamic. it would be good timing too, since its almost halloween. (not that the drawing inherently needs a dialogue scene, its a really good piece just on its own, but idk its something pre-existing that could be worked with)

Anonymous

So one thing I really like about friendship relationships is the subtle I love yous. Plenty of friends outright say it, but all friends show it without words. Exploring how each character might SHOW love without saying it might flesh out the friendships. Especially as they are all such different personalities and how they give and receive love will be very unique to them and who they are expressing it too.

Anonymous

Go back and imagine what their first meeting as children was like, how they reacted to the others and what common bond they formed.

DragonCookies

I’d be really interested to see Cupcake and Moony’s response to Panny deciding to become a princess, and maybe see how much her decision inspired them to pursue their own goals, like Cupcake joining the royal guard and so on. I feel like I remember reading that Moony was going to study to become a court sorcerer for Pandora once she became a princess. Is that idea still on the table or would you be interested in changing that as well? I need to go back and reread the Pandoraverse timeline so please disregard anything that’s inaccurate. I also don’t know if we’ve seen any specific moment where Moondancer decides he wants to get power and respect through any means necessary. We’ve seen hints of resentment start to form between him and Pandora, but could there be any interactions between them that fully sets Moondancer on the path to strive to be better than her? Maybe they had a falling-out at some point that effectively ended their friendship and turned them into rivals. Just kinda tossing ideas around obvs!

Lory

I think they’re missing that genuine nugget of friendship that makes them really care for each other. Pandora and Cupcake clearly like each other, but Moondancer’s always felt…outside of that. He doesn’t seem to have a strong relationship with Pandora or Cupcake. It’s easy to forget that Moondancer is Cupcake’s cousin (forgive me I can’t recall if Trixie ever married Maud! They’re at least girlfriends?). How was their childhood together? Did Moondancer visit much after Trixie got together with Maud? Here’s a brainstorm: It’s Cupcake’s birthday, one early in her childhood. Idk if Moondancer has been training with Twilight Sparkle and Pandora yet, but let’s just say he knows Pandora and doesn’t like her. Now, Cupcake likes to have her parties just with her family; those she feels comfortable with. Cupcake doesn’t make friends easily and big parties are stressful for her. So all of Cupcake’s birthdays have just been Cupcake, PB and Jam, and cousin Moondancer. Cupcake likes it this way. Moondancer also likes it this way. Even if he also can’t make friends, he knows he still has his family to play with. Color him shocked when Cupcake invites someone new. Someone he already knows and dislikes. Pandora, who shows up with a horrific handmade gift that Cupcake likes. This could be where some more seeds of resentment are planted. Why did Cupcake invite someone else? Why did she invite Pandora of all things? Am I not good enough? And the worst part is that Cupcake plays Pandora’s games, and likes them. Point is, Moondancer takes all of this personally and makes it into another competition with Pandora. It’s just like Twilight’s classes. Once again, Pandora steals the limelight. So anyway, Moondancer is really upset. Pandora notices and really tries to include him. But it’s clear he doesn’t want to play with her. Maybe he hides away to cry alone. Maybe in a rare moment of maturity, Pandora sits down and actually talks to Moondancer. Comforts him. Reassures him that it’s not a competition and that he’s just as much Cupcake’s friend as she is. The conditions of their rivalry still stand, and she’ll always kick Moondancer’s butt in magic class, but that doesn’t mean Pandora doesn’t want Moondancer around. Or that Cupcake doesn’t want Moondancer around. They should all play together and be the bestest friends forever. Mushy mushy stuff. Etc etc.

forthehonor-ofgayskull

When I'm writing I usually pull from stories I already know and love. If I like two character's dynamics, then I'll put it in a story. Also, all my writing teachers say write what you know, so maybe you could really pay attention to how you form friendships as inspiration?

PrincessMuffinArt

Late reply since I just got to resub, but I personally think Moon and Pan’s “tension” needs to be toned down a bit. It makes them think they’ll be the endgame ship and doesn’t focus a lot on how Pandora falls for Cupcake. Moondancer needs some development on his own without Pan and Cuppy always showing up.

lopoddity

I think Moondancer has gotten plenty of development without Pan and Cupcake, but that's a good note about the tension. Pan and Moondancer are not an endgame ship, but I do suppose I've been too heavy-handed with the ship teases, at the expense of story.

Anonymous

Curious what Cupcake's talent is, if you retcon baking?