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Supernatural - 9x8 "Rock and a Hard Place" Full Reaction (Patreon)

Published:
2022-01-01 08:07:54
Imported:
2022-07

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Rock and a Hard Place - Full Version.mp4

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Comments

Linda Moore

Great reaction, as always. So, here's my take on the whole Dean/Suzy thing. I know others have accused Dean of being sleazy here, but I don't agree at all. First of all, I don't think it's fair to applaud women for going after sex when they want it, but call guys gross or sleazy for going for it. People are only sleazy when they pursue sex with someone who is clearly not interested. And that isn't what Dean did here. In this case, Suzy was part of a chastity group, but since Dean feels about virginity, the same way you and I feel about it, that it's a construct that means basically nothing, I can't really fault him for not giving a lot of weight to the whole born again virginity thing. So, he pursued her. When she didn't really show interest at first, just being upset about her friends, and asking Dean to pray with her, he didn't try to be gross or continue to hit on her. He sat down beside her, obviously disappointed, but accepting her decision. When she found out he knew her from her past as a sex worker, she was embarrassed and clearly ashamed of her past. But Dean was kind to her, told her she had nothing to be ashamed of, that her work had helped him through nightmares and trauma. He told her what he liked about her work. We tend to simultaneously say that women shouldn't be stigmatized for having made money as sex workers but then act as though they should be ashamed about what they did, or act like what they did shouldn't be praised or be seen to have value. Sex, masturbation and the enjoyment of both are nothing to be ashamed of, but we have so many ridiculous stigmas around porn and porn stars. But when women have control in the industry, when they have control over their work, what they do is great and NOTHING to be ashamed of. Dean saw her value, told her she'd made him happy, but then DIDN'T pursue her. It was HER that pursued him, and as you said, can you blame her? He's beautiful and sweet. And when she hits on him, clearly hinting that she's interested in him, he's surprised and taken aback. He does NOT just assume that because she was a sex worker, he's guaranteed to get laid. I've often said, that I felt like Suzy was repressing her sexuality, and trying to "reclaim" her virginity because she was ashamed of her past. Dean reminded her that sex wasn't something to be ashamed of, it could just be simple, enjoyable pleasure. She says to him when it's over, "I gotta say, I really missed that." She clearly enjoys sex, and is repressing herself to "make up" for her past career, which makes me sad for her. So, I don't see Dean as sleazy here at all. He's a grown man, happy to enjoy sex with a willing partner. As I said, pursuing someone for sex isn't sleazy, only unwanted pursuit after they've been denied. That didn't happen here. I quite enjoy this episode. Dean's little speech to the chastity group is sexy (and funny) as hell, and since I tend to believe the "stay strong, stay pure" motto is complete bullshit and a potentially very dangerous teaching, I have no issue with his making the whole group squirm and turning them all on! 😂 It's natural ladies - just deal with it! LOL! I also love Sam's head shaking at Dean's "overshare" though. Fantastic. 😂 The Goddess/villain in this one was just okay, though and not really a fave for me. I was happy too that Dean was at least trying to tell Sam what was going on. The next episode is incredible imo, and I can't wait for your reaction.

Kim Rigg

Agree bit of a meh.. episode - sadly Season 9 has a few although this one is not the worst IMO. I generally do not mind Dean's womanising ways usually because it is normally respectful or the woman is after the same thing, I found myself cringing at a lot of the dialogue in this one though because he and the councillor where at different places, at least in the beginning, I did find Dean's speech at the chastity group amusing though.

Linda Moore

As far as telling Zeke to heal Sam or they'd get another angel, I think Dean is worried about riling him because really, as an angel, I think Zeke has the strength to end Sam quick and just move on to a new vessel. Dean doesn't want that obviously, so he's still desperate to trust him and worried about making him angry.

sara b
>>74771051

I agree with you 100% in all your points. The monster of the week was a bit meh but we did get the chat at the end. In my opinion, Dean hasn't told Sam about it because he knows Sam would not approve. He said in the first episode that Sam would rather die than get possessed by anything. Ezequiel is angel and now that he is inside, he's got the upper hand. Dean is powerless and can just hope it's going to work out. Although, I think it's pretty obvious

Brenda Lewis
>>74771051

Very nice take on Dean here. I love how you break down the dynamic between him and Suzy. It made me watch the scene again and really pay attention to what was going on. I must take back the "skeevy" comment now because I see what you mean. Very nice Linda.

sara b
>>74771051

Sorry posted by mistake a bit too soon. It's obvious for him and us that things are getting more and more complicated. When he saw the effect on Sam, he was going to tell him dezpite the consequences, but Ezequiel stepped in...

Linda Moore
>>74771051

@sara b I've done that more than once, accidentally hit enter so it posts in the middle of my thoughts! LOL! Yeah, it seemed like as soon as Dean could see Sam blaming himself he felt too guilty and immediately tried to reassure him. Not impressed that Zeke stopped him. 😒

Linda Moore
>>74771051

@Brenda Lewis Thanks for your kindness. 😊 Glad I could make my thoughts clear enough to be understood. 👍🏻😊

Christopher simeon

Ok so this episode is the weakest of season 9 first half but again it does sort of tell us something about dean and Sam. Ignoring dean's steamy speech very sexual overtones lol the underlining theme of it and the episode is i think is comfort and where they find it. Dean talks about how he finds comfort with sex. He also talks about how they always leave in the end. Which speaks alot to his abandonment issues. but here is something that i always find interesting about this girl this episode. I do not think dean only remembered her from porn. I think subconsciously she reminded him of Mary. She is blonde. She has a dark past that she tried to leave behind and be "normal" Dean finds comfort in family. Here in a weird way with the girl he sleeps with representing his mother. Jody talked about her finding comfort in religion after not finding comfort in relationships using bobby and her date with crowley as examples. She then tells Sam that he is lucky to have dean there to which he does not really respond. Because Sam does not find comfort is surrounding himself with family like dean does. We know this since that heaven episode and his happiest moments involved not being with family. But dean is all about family and that is what is keeping him from letting sam go because he feels like that is the only one he has left. Now this episode also proved that zeke was not lying when he said that healing others would weaken him and now it is starting to show in sam as well. Zeke would not let sam get killed by this MOTW if he was pretending to heal him. She said it is all duct tape etc inside meaning he is healing him but it is not strong work which would make sense since he told dean that he would have to stay longer the more he helped heal others which he did twice. But now dean is feeling the guilt of what he is doing to sam. Like i said last season. Dean unintentionally makes Sam feel bad about himself and this is the first time he realizes the toll that takes on sam's mental health. But again for his own benefit he says nothing to him and lies again.

ConsciousChronicle143

Yeah... a lot of the filler episodes this season are slowly reminding me why season 9 is just not a favorite of mine. This one is my least favorite so far. Just felt like one of the writers was projecting a parody of his/her ultra conservative past, while also revealing a porn fetish that currently dominates his/her (most likely his lol) brain. Was nice to see Jodi, but she was totally wasted in her usage of this episode. Some fun parts of course... but damn, they are just leaning into not giving me what I wanted in this season. Not enough Crowley, Kevin or Cas. Just more of this lame bs lol

AdoptDontShopPets
>>74771051

From the point Suzy starts crying, I agree with you regarding Dean treating her respectfully and see no issues with what happens after that. I differ in that I do see his initial pursuit of Suzy to be sleazy/skeevy. I see her being part of a chastity group as the clearest “no” a person can say without even having to be asked, which makes his initial pursuit of her feel like someone saying I know you said no, but that’s not what you really mean, see I will show you were wrong or lying. It’s just a few steps down from offering an alcoholic a drink. He wasn’t planning on any conversations on why she was in a chastity group, he was just going straight to putting the moves on. That being said, I cringe yet still laugh at this caricature of a horn dog that the show periodically throws at us since Suzy fully gets on board with the situation.

Hasnaa

One thing that i appreciate about this episode is the brief insight we get into dean when he says "always the adios" coz on a surface level reading of dean, he's a no strings attached guy, but deep down all he really wants is a deep connection with someone, not just one night stands even though he definitely enjoys those, he clearly hates the adios part, but he believes that's all he can get, breaks my heart, also every woman Sam has been with died except for Amelia, poor Sammy, poor winchesters 😭, it's just an episode, i don't really have any strong opinions about it, i kinda agree with you & Karen on the whole Suzy thing, dean initially knew Suzy wasn't up for sex, it's why she's in that group no matter how we feel about it and he still took it as a challenge to "change her mind" & of course it works for him coz it's a show & dean is supposed to be "irresistible" so it's a bit convenient that she turns out to be a former porn start that denys herself a pleasure she wants for no reason? I still don't understand why she joined that group in the first place but whatever, dean just has to be in the right all the time in this show, it's whatever, don't try this irl guys, it doesn't work, it's just a male fantasy thing, just want more cas, Crowley & Kevin, so happy to see Jody as always, i just wish she doesn't get a dislocated shoulder everytime we see her, she's a sheriff for god's sake

Rue

I do agree that Dean was extra-special sleazy in this one - so much so, I honestly thought that Buckleming wrote this episode, but nope! Jenny Klein. Oof. The thing is, I genuinely loved Suzy as a character - of all the women Dean's been with, hands down, I'd choose her if I had to choose one for Dean to be with - and I think the concept of Dean meeting her was an interesting one. I just basically look at it as him being a really big fan of her work (like, no, legitimately - just compare this to him 'meeting' Dr. Sexy lol) and just doing the whole horny fanboy thing, but just like you, it does have a few moments where it does lean too far into creeper for my comfort (fanboy but in the BAD, toxic way). If they'd just tweaked a line here or there, it could have been much less off-putting than this, I think. Jenny Klein's Dean just needs to go to horny jail, that's all.

SKK

@Linda Moore already put a lot of my feelings into words better than I could have, and my mixed feelings have already been addressed by others. (Thanks, Linda!) Re mixed feelings, "Suzy" ("Susie?") and Jensen did an amazing job navigating and humanizing a semi-ridiculously worded scene. Speaking of actors, while I don't rank this MOTW concept anywhere near the highest, I have to give a ton of credit to the guest star. She did an outstanding job with the two distinct characterizations…. Honestly, this whole episode was incredibly well cast from Honor on down to the homeless witness. I wish they'd all had more of a chance to shine. It's easy not to love the episode, but there are a few things I love in it: a Jody return, partial answers to season arc questions, the conversation at the end, and unending gratitude for Dean's group share. 🤦‍♀️I'm sorry, I just—😂It just— 🤣Okay. 😮‍💨 It started with a great insight (that @Hasnaa already mentioned re desire for connection), and the rest… was just gold 😅(gold, I tell you! 😜) compounded by really good editing.

Linda Moore
>>74771051

@AdoptDontShopPets Karen, I get your point. I just disagree. 😁 I guess because I tend to see all that abstinence/purity stuff as bullshit and as I said, potentially dangerous. I do understand what you're saying about her being part of the group is a kind of automatic no. But personally I believe being part of a group that says things like, "stay strong, stay pure" just shows someone got to you and twisted your normal, healthy sexuality into something to be ashamed of. But that's probably moreto do with my own past issues, since I doubt Dean thought much past, "Pretty girl, I bet I can get her to fool around with me." 😂 I'm just saying I don't think he was wrong to put no weight to her chastity group status and instead, just see it as a bit of a challenge. Like he said to himself, "Hey, she's wrong, sex is great - bet I can get her to agree." Lol! I also don't equate denying your own sexuality and pretending "purity" matters or is even a thing, to being an alcoholic. One is horribly dangerous and could potentially ruin your life and the other is one of the most natural parts of being human. 🤷‍♀️😊 I agree completely that I enjoy his often goofy, horndog status. I love his way of looking at sex and chuckle at the fact that he's nowhere near as smooth as he thinks he is. 😁 I wanna be like, "Dean, if you didn't look like Jensen Ackles you'd get no tail!" 😂

Linda Moore
>>74781612

That's funny, because you're not the only one to see his "adios" as sad. But I've never seen the it as anything more than Dean 'playing along' in the group, telling them what they want to hear. I believe he does want something more, something a bit more domestic. But I don't think he's looking for it from a one night stand. I think he's quite alright with those as is. But I could be wrong. Lol!

Linda Moore
>>74798550

I actually agree that some of the dialogue could have been tweaked to avoid some of the issues people have with the EP. 😊

AdoptDontShopPets
>>74771051

I focused less on the purity aspect of it and thought of it more like a support group for someone who was choosing to abstain. I imagine a person might abstain for a variety of reasons. At the beginning, Dean didn’t care about her reasons or the impact breaking her chastity would have on her emotional or mental state and he wouldn’t be around to help clean up any mess. That’s the part which makes me see it as a bad move, so we will have to agree to disagree. Ultimately they did have a good conversation before they did anything, so what ended up happening was fine.

Kyle
>>74771051

It doesn't matter if he believes he virginity stuff, she does and Its sleazy to try to make her break her vowels in something she believes just to have sex with her and never see her again, before he even really found out she was interested. But woman have been shamed as being "slutty," for going out to get sex for hundreds of years, that's why people are proud when woman go after what they want regardless that they might be judged now days, with guys tho it's just standard, I've barley met anyone who slut shames men and i grew up in a very conservative household.

Linda Moore
>>74771051

@adoptdontshoppets Karen, I can understand what you're saying. And he didn't have context for why she was abstaining, so he probably could have been a little less intent on seduction until he knew more of her situation.

AdoptDontShopPets
>>74771051

Thank you for acknowledging another perspective. I used to just see it as Dean being Dean, then with more rewatches I began to see it from irl where there could have been real consequences for someone in that situation.

Lefwyn

(Completely agree on the "everyone interpret the art" part. :)) I feel the need to defend Dean here. One of the things I love about Dean is his open appreciation for women, together with his respect for them. He is terrible to female demons, but only ever respectful and appreciative of women. And women often lead with Dean. Here, Suzy responded to Dean with "you're here now". And Suzy initiated the kiss. I believe if she had indicated she was not interested Dean would have respected that, and moved on to interviewing more about the case.

JoDaNa81

Good episode...it's always great to see Jody return! The next episode is one of my favorites of the season!

Amye Sabin
>>74771051

@Linda Moore.... Very well said, thank you for that breakdown.