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Top 40 extra: Charles Barkley (Patreon)

Published:
2022-09-23 21:08:27
Imported:
2023-07

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Content

We started a brief sidebar about the oddities of Charles Barkley and the difficulties with evaluating his style of play, and that opened a can of worms and what if's, including the incredible 1993 1st round series against the 8th-seeded Lakers. 

Comments

Anonymous

I don't think it was mentioned but similarly to what you did with Durant and Erving, how many MVP or All-NBA level seasons would you give Barkley? How does he stack up against Nash(23rd) and Durant(21st) and what would the range you give him be? - also how would you and Cody rank the peaks between Erving, Barkley, and Nash seeing as you view them all in the MVP range? Loving the content so far

Anonymous

Idk why you insist Charles had no post moves. He had a good drop step, a great swing move to the middle, a terrific turn and seal spin to the baseline and a standard right shoulder turnaround. It wasn’t pretty, but he had moves.

Ben Taylor
>>92266989

I wasn't literally saying he had no move to score in the post. I was saying that everything you just described wasn't a traditional post bag that pops. (eg there's no hook and or twisting fades over both shoulders)

Ben Taylor
>>92223487

I have Barkley at clear All-NBA level from 1986-96 ('97 is fringe), 7 of those seasons are either low MVP or flirt with low MVP, and his peak gets close to what I'd call strong MVP. I do view those 3 similarly, although I think Charles's peak is maybe a tad behind the other I could see him as high as 16th on the list (16-18 or so -- there are a group of players very close there that we'll get to)

Anonymous
>>92266989

Sorry. The “no post moves” description was also used in the Dirk / Karl / Chuck comp pod and has been itching at the back of my brain since then. A second utterance was apparently beyond the pale for me.

Anonymous
>>92223487

I remember Charles was great at posting up traditional power forwards and under-sized tweeners. He was kinda like bully-ball LeBron. The tall/super long (PF/C) hybrids (McHale/Duncan/Sheed) gave him trouble.

Anonymous

Does your realization that Barkley has never played on a great team/defense and the understanding of how bigs can be exposed more in today's game in the PS, carry over to your evaluation of Jokic? I'm thinking Luka>Jokic is the way to go, just like you had it back in the 2020 season. While Jokic is indeed a top 5-10 offensive player ever (something Barkley wasn't), his offensive production in the PS from 20-22, hasn't actually outpaced Doncic. And if Doncic is less of a liability in the PS...

Ben Taylor
>>92285362

I've discussed this with Dirk before, so it's been on my mind for a while. For what you're describing, I'd say it makes it easier for Doncic to have a higher *peak.*

Anonymous
>>92285362

Food for thought: Luka and Jokic offensive performance against similar opponents in the PS. Luka's averages vs Clippers in 2020 PS (Clippers had a rDRTG of -3.1) 31 points, 9.8 rebs, 8.7 assists, 5.2 turnovers (rTS% of 5.6%) in 35.8 MPG. Luka is estimated to have created about 16.2 shots per 100 possessions. Backpicks BPM-6.2 GameScore-23.4 Net On/Off-3.1 Dallas had a 111.1 ORTG, and 120.9 DRTG with Luka on. Jokic's averages vs Clippers in 2020 PS (Clippers had a rDRTG of -3.1) 24.4 points, 13.4 rebounds, 6.6 assists, 4.7 turnovers (rTS% of 5.4%) in 37.7 MPG. Jokic is estimated to have created about 10.4 shots per 100 possessions. Backpicks BPM-6.1 GameScore-19.9 Net On/Off-18.1 Denver had a 113.1 ORTG, and 110.6 defensive rating with Jokic on. Luka's averages vs Clippers in 2021 PS (Clippers had a rDRTG of -1.3) 35.7 pts, 7.9 rebounds, 10.3 assists, 4.6 turnovers (rTS% of 0.90%) in 40.2 MPG. Luka is estimated to have created about 19.5 shots per 100 possessions. Backpicks BPM-6.8 GameScore-26.1 Net On/Off-43.2 Dallas had a 119.8 ORTG and 120.9 DRTG with Luka on. Jokic's averages vs Suns in 2021 PS (Suns had a rDRTG of -1.1) 25 points, 13.3 rebounds, 5.8 assists, 2 turnovers (rTS% of -3.5%) in 33.5 MPG. Jokic is estimated to have created about 7.7 shots per 100 possessions. Backpicks BPM-5 GameScore-22.2 Net On/Off: (-3.8) Denver had a 111.6 ORTG, and 125.7 DRTG with Jokic on. Luka's averages vs Suns in 2022 PS (Suns had a rDRTG of -4.6) 32.6 points, 9.9 rebounds, and 7 assists, 4 turnovers (rTS% of 3.9%) in 36.1 MPG. Luka is estimated to have created about 17.6 shots per 100 possessions. Backpicks BPM-9.7 GameScore-24.8 Net On/Off-16.6 Dallas had a 120.7 ORTG and a 113.6 DRTG with Luka on. Jokic's averages vs Warriors in 2022 PS (Warriors have a rDRTG of -4.9) 31 pts, 13.2 rebs, and 5.8 assists, 4.8 turnovers (rTS% of 8.9%) in 34.2 MPG. Jokic is estimated to have created about 12.5 shots per 100 possessions. Backpicks BPM-8.6 GameScore-25.9 Net On/Off: (-15.8) Denver had a 111.6 ORTG and a 125.7 DRTG with Jokic on. Luka's averages vs Warriors in 2022 PS (Warriors have a rDRTG of -4.9) 32 pts, 9.2 rebs, and 6 assists, 3.8 turnovers (rTS% of 0.60%) in 38.2 MPG. Luka is estimated to have created about 12.5 shots per 100 possessions. Backpicks BPM-5 GameScore-22.9 Net On/Off: (-33.3) Mavs had a 110.5 ORTG and a 126.3 DRTG with Luka on. All in all Luka's PS runs measured Bball Ref BPM 20-7.9 21-11.8 22-9.3 AuPM/g 20-2.5 21-3.9 22-3.2 RAPTOR 20-9.2 21-11.3 22-3.5 2020-2022 LEBRON-4.32 Jokic's measurements in recent PS runs Bball Ref BPM 20-7.4 21-9 22-10.7 AuPM/g 20-3.4 21-2.7 22-4.4 RAPTOR 20-4.8 21-7 22-10.3 2020-2022 LEBRON-1.96