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Buffy The Vampire Slayer S07E17 - Lies My Parents Told Me FULL REACTION (Patreon)

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2019-03-21 16:00:02
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Rebecca Davies

Yessssss been waiting for this reaction Always look forward to your Buffy reactions 😍❤️

Anouar

I like amendiel, you just hate him because of spike.

Freddy Bowman

Woo-hoo! Sorry I mentioned geeking out at the start of the week, Shan, assuming you had already seen this one. But now you know WHY I was geeking. Awesome episode!!! I'm gonna call some classic Shan reactions before I even start watching. This is gonna be fun!!!

Kelly Marie

I’ve been waiting for this ep for a while, I love the backstory to spike before and after he got turned. It’s funny because for a “soulless” creature he sure did love his mum and even turned her because he didn’t want to lose her whereas Angelus killed his family straight away. I feel bad for Wood because if I finally found my mothers killer then I’d want revenge too but as you said he needs to see the bigger picture and there’s no time for vendettas. Giles definitely deserved to get his ass chewed from Buffy at the end.

Freddy Bowman

I love that Joss is using Spike as the truth teller so much this season. He's always been pretty spot on with his takes on situations and emotions from others, but this season he's really the one to look to if you want to know the right scoop. He told Wood that although his mother may have loved him, the calling would always be first. And he was right. "They always fight alone. Life of the chosen one." He nailed it, even though Wood didn't want to hear it. And of course Buffy echoed his own mother's words at the end - "The mission is what matters."

Freddy Bowman
>>21017980

I don't like amendiel, and yes a big part of it is because of Spike. :)

Bisibia

This is the most awesomely frustrating episode of the series. I'm annoyed at a bunch of people the whole time, while still thoroughly enjoying every minute.

s jaco

One of my fave episodes of the series

Brandon Wiesner

I was like who's Amandiel? I had to look it up. It's a reference to the other show he's on, haha. Anyway, yeah Wood was out to avenge his mother's death. He just had to realize that the Spike who killed her is different from the Spike that is with them. It was a hard episode, with Buffy having to be tough on him in the end, plus dismissing Giles. Man, it left me an uncomfortable feeling but it was important in showing how Buffy has grown into her leadership role. Plus, it was cool to see Spike cured of the trigger, so he can be free to fight among them.

seekingoutfriday

I don't think Giles' hatred of Spike is OOC. Flashback to I Was Made to Love You and Spiral. He is venomous about Spike's presence. And he doesn't have good things to say about Spike either in Once More with Feeling. I do think Giles not telling Buffy is OOC, and I think them shutting each other out at the end is sad, ooc, and I'm not sure earned. I have a lot of problems with it. Buffy's main trait that puts her over others on the show imo is her ability to forgive and have compassion (and it's the hard lesson she learned in season 2). She forgives everyone on the show, whether they deserve it or not, and has a big heart. She forgave Giles after Helpless! I don't get how Giles and Buffy became Giles and Buffy at the end of this episode when they got past Helpless. And got past Giles leaving her in season 6. On the other hand, I also think Giles sees what Buffy doesn't see... that Angel is Angelus and Spike is Spike. They are one in the same, but the soul provides them a conscious which gives them the opportunity to choose a different endgame. Angelus is not that different from Angel and I can write a whole thesis on that. And I think he's done enough in season 1 of Buffy and in his show to show that he's not that different from Angelus. Spike is not that different from William the Bloody, and part of that is he hated his human existence. Anyway tl;dr, Giles gets that, and also, Giles never forgave Angel. He tolerated Angel in season 3, but never forgave. Anyway, I love this episode. I like that Spike isn't weepy and brooding about his past. I think his way is actually a much healthier way than Angel's. He did, what, 80 years of crying and brooding, and ergo doing nothing with his life and helping no one? Spike is just moving past that. No point in reliving it, he's got to move forward for the good of everyone. It's also a bit sad that Spike is believing the Slayer is Alone bit, because this season is actually the season where Buffy is giving him the most reasons for him to believe she wants him in her life and with him. And he's not seeing that. I have no ill will toward Wood about this. At this moment, anyway. And I don't think Spike does, nor Buffy. But as the ending states, neither of them will give him a pass if he does it again. And I love that Spike - souled Spike in all his glory - flat out states he will kill Wood the human. And I love that Buffy tells Wood she'll let him. *and onto my shipper heart, because I'm a shipper, I can't help it* This episode is the episode that for me cemented Spike as Buffy's equal. I shipped them before, but this is the episode that had me be like, "Yup. This works." And it has less to do with their interactions - even though Buffy was very supportive of Spike in this episode - and more to do how they've both come into their characters and story lines individually.

Freddy Bowman
>>21019528

I disagree that Spike was wrong in his general assessment that Slayers, by the nature of their calling, are always going to be somewhat "alone." Not that they can't or don't have friends or close family (Nikki, Buffy and Faith have proven otherwise). But the calling they have isn't something other people can identify with, and so they will always be a bit alone in that sense. It seems to me that Nikki telling her son that they always have to "work the mission" and then Buffy telling Wood that "the mission is what matters" is the type of Chosen One calling that creates a bit of aloneness in them because they have a drive that is different than everyone else. To me what Spike said to Wood was proven 100% correct at the end when Buffy said that to Wood. Hence him looking back up at her with a bit of sadness when she told him that. It was like he realized that Spike was correct.

Talmet

Giles in this episode is so stupid...I mean, he's supposed to be educated, but his statement that "This is the way wars are won!" is just dumb. Giles, no. Wars are won, generally, by making alliances with people you disagree with, putting your differences aside, and facing the greater threat. i.e. FDR and Churchill made an alliance with Stalin to fight Hitler. FDR/Churchill didn't like Stalin, and Stalin was allied with Hitler previously, but they put their differences aside, and dealt with the greater threat. Spike did some horrible stuff before, but the First is a greater threat, and Spike is willing to fight the First, and he is a good fighter...so if an alliance can be maintained between Buffy and Spike (which it obviously can, Buffy and Spike made an alliance even when Spike was evil and he didn't betray her), there is no reason why Buffy should be ok with Giles and Wood attempting to kill Spike.....that'd be like if right before D-Day Canada attacked Russia, and then told FDR/Churchill, "Hey, Stalin is evil, he could betray us, we have to destroy Russia!"

Kaylee Laurie

I totally agree about spike not being the same person. It always bothers me when people try to say angel is better for her because spike tried to rape her, because that spike should be compared to Angelus, not angel. Still I can’t help but empathize with principal wood.

Anonymous

Giles is underhanded. Robin is motivated by revenge. But Spike should not have left the basement without finishing his therapy and Buffy should not have let him.

Jarrod Wild
>>21021561

I think this is the point when you get in Giles' head and see things from his perspective. It's not that Spike has fought along side them before, or that he has a soul now. It's that the trigger was still active and that made Spike a serious threat at any possible moment. Even though Giles was keen to Wood's real motives, he agreed to put an end to that threat for seemingly justifiable reasons.

homoerotic 80s volleyball scene personified

Think of it this way: Would you hate Buffy if she went after a souled Spike if he had killed Joyce before getting his soul? Yes, Spike is not the same person, but that doesn't change the fact that Wood still lost his mom. And we can't expect for Wood to understand the soul thing right away either since there are only two souled vampires in the world, which is why I get why he tried to kill Spike.

Sheriff Uchiha

Giles wants to kill spike because the first could take control of him at any moment and have him kill people. He only committed to killing Spike AFTER they failed to remove the trigger. He never found out Spike removed it himself. I get where he is coming from, I don't agree with him but it's in character for him. He killed Ben when Buffy couldn't because he knew Ben and Glory would be a problem. Giles has always been like this. He said in this episode he respected Angel for leaving Buffy as being with her meant he may become Angelus again. And he hates Spike for being close to Buffy depict being under direct control of her greatest enemy. He doesnt know Spike offered to leave town but Buffy asked him to stay. Plus he is acting on the knowledge that the first needs Spike for something so he's trying to foil what ever it's plan is. Like I said I don't agree with him but he has always been like this.

Freddy Bowman

Another element I loved about this episode is that it reminded us of what happens when a human becomes a vampire. A demon literally comes into the person's body and takes control. Thus Spike's mum literally became a sadistic, sick person after being sired because it was a demon inside playing mind-games with Spike. Once he realized this he was able to have peace within, knowing his Mom really did love him and that wasn't her speaking to him. Apparently some vampires really change drastically from their former selves (Angelus, Spike's Mom) and others change some, but not as much (Spike). At least that's how I'm reading the dynamic.

Freddy Bowman
>>21022794

I agree. Giles isn't really acting that much OOC here. He is thinking primarily about the trigger and how dangerous and out of control Spike can become when it's active. As far as we know he didn't realize it had been deactivated in that last scene with Buffy. Perhaps his attitude will change after he finds that out.

Freddy Bowman

One more thing. Shan, I think you misunderstood Buffy when she told Giles that she'd let Dawn die now (as opposed to what she said at the beginning of "The Gift"). She didn't say she wouldn't sacrifice herself in Dawn's place again if given the chance. Clearly she would. All she was saying is if that option of switching places with Dawn were not open she'd let her die now if it meant saving the rest of the world. A tough thing to hear her say, but she's grown more now and she's thinking not only about herself and her sister, but about the entire world.

homoerotic 80s volleyball scene personified

I get your point with the Spike and Angel thing, but the difference is that Angel payed and atoned for what he had done for years and years. Spike has only had his soul for a few months, and already he's started to act like he has nothing to atone for anymore.

Dan H

It's been 15 years or so, that "she didn't quit" spiel still makes no sense at all. The entire premise of the show is coping with a destiny that can't be "quit". It's been at the root of *three* season finales before this. Sigh.

mossomness (Amanda Moss)

One flaw in the show, I think, is that Spike didn’t stop wearing that jacket when he got his soul. It’s difficult to treat pre and post-soul Spike as different people when souled Spike is still wearing the trophy he took off the slayer he killed. Robin is told he can’t be mad at the guy wearing the jacket taken off his dead mother. I really wish Spike had given it to Robin at the end of this. I’m not saying Spike should be blamed for killing her anymore, but it bothers me that he feels no remorse and still acts proud of it.

Anonymous

Shan, I do think you need to take your Spike tinted glasses off sometimes. Yes we all love Spike but Giles is well within his right to not trust him. Spike worked by the Scoobies gang for two years, harboured a dangerous obsession with Buffy, tried to rape her. Then he went to get his soul back and once he did he still ended up killing masses amounts of people due to the First's hold on him. Giles can see that at this point in the story Spike, even with a soul, is still a liability and a threat to the girls and the mission. We all love Spike, but that doesn't mean we need to be blind when other characters continue not to trust him. Angel was also different due to the Scoobies knowing straight away as a good guy. Then Angelous turned up, did some shit and died. When Angel came back, he was rabid but still didn't go around killing people and slowly built back the trust of the gang...something Spike is still to do!

Bruce Trogdon
>>21023730

Switching places with Dawn was not a known option when Buffy said those things in "The Gift" and I don't believe her when she tells Giles she'd let Dawn die now. It's possible that she believes it - I think she believed she could kill Faith and feed her to Angel in GD 1 - but actually stabbing Faith seemed to really shock Buffy, and Faith wasn't innocent at all. She was why Angel needed to drain the blood of a slayer in the first place.

Hans Olav
>>21021175

I think what Giles is saying is that: Spike is a puppet to the First and can at any moment turn against them, and he believes that Buffy's feelings are clouded. And he obviously loathes Spike, which only helps his distrust of him.

Keith Allison

"Because the military gave him a soul?" Low-key one of my favorite funny lines.

Andrew Courtney

Just in case you didn’t know Buffy does not end at Season 7. Joss Whedon kept producing additional Seasons in comic form. So you should try to find those to continue the story for yourself.

Freddy Bowman
>>21029714

But the jacket is a symbol of his mojo. And Buffy specifically told him that she wanted the old, dangerous spike back. Not only did she want him back, she needs him back for the biggest fight of their life. So I think him keeping it is fine. It symbolizes his commitment to be ruthless with the enemy that they all know they are going to face soon.

BaoziBang

About Giles, I think when he went back to England he got basically Re indoctrinated by the council.

FernWithy

I'm so with you on Giles. I don't know what was going on in the writers' room, but it felt like they just said, "We need a rift between Buffy and Giles. So totally, we'll have him try to outright murder Spike." (As to why they needed the rift... honestly, I don't know why they felt the need to do that, etiher.) I get Robin's point, at least--vengeance is a thing. But Giles? I don't buy it at all, and it marred an otherwise compelling idea (Spike confronting someone who was hurt by one of those things he has bragged about over the years). I can think of some ways to justify it--maybe Giles is traumatized by the events of the last year or something--but the show gives us no hint, the script makes no sense, and I am not willing to do the work for them on that. Character continuity is a thing, and they screwed the pooch on it in this episode, Giles-wise. I'll forgive it, but I won't play along with it.

FernWithy
>>21034879

(Oh, and I feel like Anya could have had some commentary going into this episode, which deals so heavily with vengeance. It was kind of a waste to just have her give a throwaway line.)

Rey Gallogo

Spike kills puppy. Spike-whipped fans blames puppy for accidentally jumping into Spike's mouth. That's how I feel Spike fans are.

Holi117

I love this episode. Love the drama lol. I also love that this shows even after turning, days old as a vampire (think of the newly risen moron vamps buffy kills each night, desperate to feed), and even soulless and new, Spike can still love and care. He wanted to save his mum, make her healthy and strong like he felt, cure her. He had no idea that turning her could change her because he still felt like himself (stronger, more confident of course... he hadnt built himself into Spike yet) and still loved his mum. Such a contrast to Angel who killed his entire family and slaughtered pretty much his whole village after he was turned... even his beloved little sister... I think Giles was totally in character, even though is fristrating. Bufy has no time for vendettas, including any she perceives giles to have. I feel like shes probably feeling pretty sick of her friends and family going behind her back after all these years and making choices for her lol. Giles has made a lot of mistakes over the seasons, but i think maybe in some way right now this one feels like the straw that broke the camel’s back for buffy... ANYWAYS! Great episode and reaction, cant wait for more!! :)

FernWithy
>>21035215

Some of that comes from weird choices this season. There was no special reason that he couldn't have said, "I'm sorry about your mum... it was a fight, and she lost, but I'm sorry it wen there." Instead of bragging. That was a bad, bad choice.

Andrew Pulrang

This is definitely the weakest part of this otherwise strong closing season of Buffy. Robin's vendetta by itself would be interesting, and the concern about Spike being under The First's control is valid. But combining the two doesn't work, at least not as some kind of moral or lesson for Buffy. The fact is they got lucky. Robin's ambush just happened to help Spike come to terms with his mother issues, which means The First's trigger won't work. Problem solved. Giles at least should accept that. The only reason he had to worry in a new way about Spike was The First's trigger ... which WAS a brand new factor. But it's fixed now. So we can go back to feeling a little strange about Spike, but accepting him as an ally ... which is pretty much how we felt about Angel.

Andrew Pulrang
>>21029982

To be fair, I think Spike gets a bit of a raw deal from the Scoobies and some fans compared to Angel. I think part of the problem is that Spike never fully changed his personality. Even when he's a good guy he's still mostly the same kind of person, while Angel went all broody and solemn. So it was easier to accept Angel as "different" with a soul, whereas Spike only changed at the core ... externally he often seems unchanged. And, unlike Angel, Spike still kind of misses his old self, and doesn't appear as repentant as Angel did. Maybe this is a good reason to trust Angel more than Spike, but I don't think it is. The only real problem I have with Spike is his attempted rape of Buffy. Soul or no soul, that's a hard pill to swallow. But Buffy is being pretty clear that she's accepting him as an ally, not as a lover and probably not even as a friend. And it's her call.

Andrew Pulrang
>>21026403

I sort of agree with this. But I think that a valid interpretation is that Spike simply handles his guilt differently. Just because he doesn't mope and brood and eat rats doesn't mean he's not dealing with stuff.

Bruce Trogdon

As I see it, the character's responses to Angel and ensouled Spike are different because the two of them are different. Angel is Liam's human soul along with the demonic spirit known as Angelus. As long as the human soul is present and in control (i.e. not incapacitated by a mind-altering drug), Angel has control. They share one set of memories so Angel remembers doing everything Angelus did, and vice versa, but, for example, the human soul wasn't present when Jenny Calendar was killed, so he isn't considered to be responsible for that. Season 7 Spike is the demon and William's human soul together. So when characters talk to Spike, they ARE talking to the one who killed a lot of people (including Nikki Woods), tried to lure Buffy into the darkness and then assaulted her. He has a soul now but he's already killed several people for FE and, at the start of this episode, he could kill more the same way. I don't think it's an accident that after the 2 hour premier, the first episode doesn't center on demons at all. “Witch” is the first of many stories about the evil that humans do. In Catherine Madison, the hyena keeper, Marcie, Billy Fordham, Mayor Wilkins, Faith, Tucker Wells, Maggie Walsh and more, there are plenty of examples of how a human soul doesn't prevent someone from doing evil. It's something Angel was concerned about in “Amends.” The soul doesn't automatically keep either Angel or Spike from killing anyone. Buffy believes Spike will do good because he wants to do good but I don't think ANYONE else is comfortable with that at this point.

JoDaNa81

This is part of the season I don't really care for, the whole Buffy putting Spike above everyone else part.

The Answer

Darn it Shan will you ever like a black Character

Vincent Valentin

The giles not liking spike thing isn't random. The specific issue Giles has is that A the first has shown it can control him. and B they removed the one thing preventing him from harming people. Now obviously it wasn't working before when he was doing stuf but there have been multiple episodes where giles expressed his issues with spike.

John Boehmer

I have not read the comments so maybe someone else has pointed this out but I think Giles was doing the right thing. I agree with everything Buffy said and did but Giles was coming from a pragmatic place. he was looking at the big picture and greater good. Having a First-controlled Spike living in the basement is a recipe for disaster. Had Spike shown any genuine resolve to try to figure out a way to deactivate the trigger perhaps Giles would have been more willing to do things Buffy's way. I think people let their affection for the character get in the way of looking at the situation clearly.

Ron Fehr
>>21039328

The way that I was raised taught me that any kind of killing is wrong (except in self-defense). Obviously not the view of many.

Ron Fehr

There is a volumized book of the last season of Buffy. If I recall, Robin's mother had him in her mid-teens, making this story possible.

Claire Eyles

To me the fact that Robin Wood says he doesn't want to kill Spike he wants to kill the thing that took his mother, and then proceeds to trigger Spike with that song (in a very deliberate and pre-planned act), shows that he has absolutely no regard for the bigger picture and is acting purely on selfish reasons. He knows Spike has changed on some level, or else he wouldn't have apparently needed to separate the Spike he knows now from the Spike that killed his mother by using the trigger, and yet despite that he still chooses to go ahead and attempt to kill Spike anyway.

Claire Eyles

As for Giles, I do think what he did was in character I just don't think it was necessarily written very well though.

UTU49
>>21018530

I sometimes think of this as "the episode where everyone is in the wrong".

UTU49
>>21038811

Sorry, but that's not a fair comment. You're making an unfair assumption, based on limited information. For example, she likes Mike Peterson on Agents of SHIELD.

raymond julien

I saw it as, Buffy is a slayer looking to Spike as a warrior, while Giles is a Watcher seeing the Devastation an un-chipped triggered Spike could do. Normal people can't see souls, they can only judge 'it' by how they see people act. However I believe Buffy can sense souls (important in her line of work) and is giving Spike the chance to shine.

Anonymous
>>21038304

The writers also did that. Anya, Willow, Xander, Dawn and Giles are doing almost nothing.

Richard Lucas
>>21023614

I like your thoughts on vampires. As we learn from Anya in season 3, all demons that walk the earth are really lesser demons, human-Demon hybrids. I’d like to think that Angelius and Spike’s mom as you said got more-demony hybrids, while Harmony, for example, is evil, but must have gotten a pretty weak demon, so more of the human personality shines through.

Spencer Williams

Wood not seeing the bigger picture is the whole point Shan. Human beings are clouded by their emotions, and revenge tends to be one of the most prevalent of them all. It's also been one of the driving emotions for basically his entire life, this isn't something that he could just all of a sudden let go. Just like Willow could not immediately let go of her revenge after Tara's death, and that all happened in a much shorter time frame. So Wood's actions here make complete sense. Buffy is all about flawed characters, and exploring those flaws and why they are the way they are, what lead them to be a certain way or act a certain way, etc. It's one of the biggest reasons why I like the series so much.

Richard Lucas
>>21027669

I think the thought is that if Robin was really first in Nikki’s life, that she could have taken him and gone somewhere, hidden from monsters and the council alike until he was of age. But her destiny was too strong in her.

Ron Fehr

William's (aka Spike's) mother's name was Anne, a callback to season 3 episode 1, when Buffy used her middle name while waitressing.

Ron Fehr

My understanding is that Nikki was pregnant with Robin before she became the Slayer. As for Robin's father, my guess is that he was the result of a one-night stand.

Ron Fehr

In his own way, by letting Robin live, Spike kind of apologized for killing his mother. Robin needs to get past that and be willing to forgive him. I once watched a news article in which a woman found the strength to forgive her son's murderer. In fact they even became neighbors, and socialized on occasion.

Timotey Kuhn

I still remember the first time the tune that turns out to be Spike's trigger was shown on the show. I immediately had a childhood flashback, because the same tune was used as the theme song for a show I watched all the time as a wee fella called "The Friendly Giant". It was made during the late 1950's through to around the early 1980's and it shows to be sure in the video below..not that I cared in the slightest back then about super high production values and the like... it was just fuuuuuuuun. :D :D <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV2P6P4p6Hg" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV2P6P4p6Hg</a>

Timotey Kuhn

21:25... Only a bit weird?? LULZ Holy Oedipus, Batman! :P All we're missing is a father for Spike/William to kill &amp; for Spike to stab his eyes out afterwards. I guess you could say that his Mum does double story duty in that regards... ;) :P

Emma goldsbrough

great reaction. Agree in what u said.

Calvin Allen

How did Spike and Dru get into the house?

Corey Wolf

Spikes most Billy Idol episode ever

Einar Sigurðsson

I love how Poet William´s mannerism is soo much like early Wesley´s

Mike Woodcock
>>21062153

Reason and bigger picture concerns could never have competed with the stories Wood had been telling himself about Spike his whole life.

Freddy Bowman

This is probably way too late for anyone to read at this point, but something else I wanted to point out. For a while now Buffy has been telling Spike, and everyone else that will listen to her, that he can be a "good man". How does she know that? She just "feels it" or "knows it" in her gut. Her instincts as the Slayer tell her he's valuable to the mission and that he won't hurt any of them because he has a soul. But Giles, and the rest of the Scoobies think that Buffy is only feeling that way about Spike because her judgment is clouded by fond feelings for him. So they don't trust her on this one and think she's missing the bigger point. But she doesn't think she is. This is basically a "someone is right and someone is wrong" type of situation. Either Buffy can't see straight or the other Scoobies can't see straight. That's the message I was getting after watching this episode for the first time so many years ago.

WB
>>21229273

Yeah, I think you summarized it well. Neither side trusts the others judgement. We as the viewers have extra knowledge that the not everyone has so its easy for us

Melazond

I really need to look at that schedule, I totally missed this week and was wondering what happened!

Eric Haefele

I am sure that I am not the first to point this out, but I am going to do it anyway. Spike had a trigger that the First was going to use at just the right time to help him win his war. That trigger is the difference between Angel and Spike and between this Spike and pre-trigger Spike. With the trigger active Spike was a weapon for the First. Giles was right to want Spike out of the way if they couldn't get rid of the trigger. Giles was willing to sacrifice his relationship with Buffy to protect her from a First triggered Spike. Would you really have left this weapon in the hands of the First?

charmed_olive
>>21682319

I think the point here is he didn't even try to get rid of the trigger, they went straight to "lie to Buffy and murder Spike while she is distracted" though.

Eric Haefele
>>21682319

They did try to get rid of the trigger first, that was what the thing slithering into Spike's brain through his eye was all about. Spike wasn't willing to go further with trying to de-trigger himself. So, at what point do you decide that leaving Spike with access to Buffy with trigger intact was too big a risk? That is a judgement call. With the fate of the world potentially in the balance, I find it understandable that they chose not to wait any longer. As far as lying to Buffy, did they? I do not remember any specific lie, unless you are referring to giving a fake reason for Giles training Buffy that night. Giles has experience with trying to reason with Buffy. It usually doesn't turn out well. If he told Buffy that they were going to kill Spike, do you think that she would let them?