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Melron Doctor Who 12x10 - Finale Poll! (Patreon)

Published:
2020-03-05 13:46:58
Imported:
2021-02

Content

How do you feel about the Timeless Child explanation?

Comments

James

Absolute bollocks. And its depressing how many people are accepting it.

Michael

If they go back to business as usual after this then all of this will have been pointless. It also creates a lot of confusion with previous plot points like River and how she got her regenerations. The whole thing just complicates everything unnecessarily.

Gavin Hardiman

The show made a big deal as to go out of the way to say that the Doctor being the timeless child doesn’t change anything. If so then why have it at all? plus I don’t think this was worth the sacrifice of all the timelords. Kind of disappointed that Jodie still feels like she just regenerated and hasn’t settle comfortably as the Doctor. Everything else in the episode was stellar just those things really bothered me.

Anonymous

Definitely in the middle about it. I know some people have been quite vocal about it ruining over 50 years of a character to resolve a plot point not many fans cared about in the 70’s. It feels like Chris Chibnall took over the show so he could make his teenage fanfiction of the Doctor Who a staple part of its lore that can’t easily be changed. I enjoyed the acting. The overall performance. The set pieces. I even quite liked the Cyberlords (Cybermasters?). But the episode just felt like a massive exposition dump that was only really relevant to a very thin string through half the season. Even then, a lot of the episodes were mostly rehashed versions of stories throughout the Tennant/Smith era. The benefit overall is that it means for events such as the 60th or special episodes, it can feature other actors playing a version of the Doctor.

Lynn Walker

"Chris Chibnall is accidentally my favorite showrunner because instead of the Dr being the Other, all powerful god-creature founder of Gallifreyan society, the Dr is “the other,” a child refugee who is granted no agency and treated like so many othered, marginalized people: a useful tool to be exploited, even by those who claim to care for her, eventually given no route to find out more about her actual origins because that’s not a priority for her masters. It is absolutely wild to me that in one episode this series took a character who had always been (to me, anyway) a subtextual immigrant even before the time war, and textually, canonically said, “yes, they are not only an immigrant, they are a refugee who has been massively exploited and abused and gaslit by a more powerful majority that essentially forced them to conform and assimilate” “and then they escaped” ^This pretty much sums my feelings on the Doctor being the timeless child. It doesn't change the fact the Doctor got fed up with the Time Lords and ran away. It doesn't change the who they are at the core. I just adds a lot of tragic backstory to the Doctor and why the Time Lords were always kinda weird around them. Also, I'm surprised you didn't like Jodie's performance in this episode. I thought she nailed all of the emotional scenes and she was really convincing when she had to be angry. My favorite thing about her Doctor and how she portrays her Doctor is that words are not needed to express what is going on in the Doctor's mind. Jodie's performance is so nuanced and subtle which is different from the past Doctor but I find it fresh and welcoming. She adds a whole other level to the character.

Peter Mitchell
>>33296352

its stated in the episode that regenerations was put into their genetic makeup so future generations would have it, then restricted to a number of 12 times. im theoryizing that the timelords got so greedy with regeneration that they also restricted it to only if u become a timelord as well, so why should it matter how regeneration was created just because of river? they did experiments on her as a baby so im guessing they found how to activate her genetic ability to regen because of wat i just explained.

Peter Mitchell
>>33296325

tell me where the cannon is broken. 1. we dont know the origin of the doctor, it was always a theory that the doctor was the other, which we still dont know. 2. its been theorized before the doctor may have had other lives before Hartnell. 3. the rengenerations were put into the people's genetic makeup to be apart of future generations inheritence, as stated in the episode, again that doesnt break canon just adds to it. 4. when vastra said "you told me how your people came to be through exposure from the vortex" that still happened, the shobogans eventually became galifreyians then special elite become timelords. still no canon broken . the only thing people can get mad at here is the fact that maybe the doctor's original gender was a girl, ok.

Anonymous

I really liked it, expands the canon in a nice way

Bejo

I enjoyed the episode and thought that they did a good job explaining it without actually contradicting things already established. It also answers some questions from the classic era. However, I have to see what they’ll do in series 13 to actually make up my mind on whether it’ll completely work for me or not. I feel like this is the kind of storyline that would go on for a little too long, and I don’t really like long mysteries that span multiple seasons.

Kiyan Qwindu

Am I the only one who doesn't want River to return? She's Done. She's had 3 goodbyes; When she died (D10), after she died (D11), and before she died (D12). Let a good character go instead of keeping them around to be potentially overused and unenjoyable to watch. Makes a ton more sense for Jack to rescue her, but knowing this show it's probably going to be someone the doctor meets there.

Kiyan Qwindu

I feel like the reason why they got rid of all the Timelords and Gallifrey is so that when we finally get to see who the Doctor species is and planet of origin, they are going to take over for the Timelords as a place the Doctor can go and visit and interact with like in old classic who.

Anonymous

I don't hate the idea in of itself. I'm just not a fan of making it (atleast seemingly) so concrete. I always found it more fun the doctor's past not being clear, what did the 1st doctor do on gallifrey before leaving? Was he the 1st? What was the doctor's role on gallifrey? I much prefer all that being up in the air and up to interpretation. Now we all just have to accept chibnall's ideas of what he thinks the character's past was, atleast for now. It just comes over as self indulgent on his part. Plus I'm not a fan of "chosen one" like story telling, personally I much prefer thinking of the doctor as a member of this species who decided no this isn't for me I need to go out there and see it and discover myself along the way, not making the character literally from somewhere else that's why they are different, that's just boring to me personally.

Supermonaman

I really loved this explanation because I felt it was done well especially because of the performance. I also don't think it contradicts anything or ruins the character at all because I think it just adds to the Doctor's character. I also thought it was a great episode even if I have some small problems with how the side characters were used except for Ko Sharmus I thought he was awesome. I haven't seen it yet but great reaction as always. :-) <3

Anonymous

Man, haters gonna hate, but it's great. Adds mystery, doesn't impact canon like people says it does, it's so exciting. Makes sense, has actually been teased since classic who. Also, it's not "chosen one" storytelling. The doctor is still a time lord who ran away, there's just more history there.

Anonymous

I feel like there should be a third option. I liked the concept but not the execution. The Doctor just accepted the Master's words as truth which unfortunately is in line with how passive she tends to be written. But the idea of a secret past does open up possibilities like searching for Tectiun / the Division.

Aquitaine
>>33298016

Exactly. Thank you. The Timeless Child was a tool the founders of the Time Lords used to create one aspect (regeneration) of their new elite. That’s about as far from being a chosen one as you can get.

Ged_UK
>>33299154

Well, she didn't really have much time to process it really. I'm sure that Chibnall has something on this as part of his much vaunted 5 year plan, so I'm looking forward to seeing where it goes. I mean, it's perfectly possible the Master is lying, or more likely that the Matrix has been corrupted somehow, which we've seen before. But I suspect that it's all true.

Anonymous

I enjoyed it, with a lot of clauses. Weirdly I was kinda expecting the twist to be that The Master was actually the Timeless Child and lied to the Doctor about her being it, adds to his hatred of his own race etc. But no. I guess he could've lied still, maybe? the whole twist with The Doctor just doesn't sit right for me.

Lennon Hale

Anyone else find the most unbelievable part of this arc the fact that the rags made by a low tier race like the stenza could somehow see through a time lord mind wipe??

Lynn Walker
>>33297639

I'm with you about River. Her story is over and it is time to move on.

Anonymous

I don’t like it. It’s overly complicated and rewrites the history we know. If Time Lords are genetic experiments then what about River Song, is what made her how the Doctor was originally created? When Clara asked the Time Lords for more lives for the Doctor were they just giving back what they took away, and how many lives did they give was it infinity?

Anonymous

I absolutely loved it. This episode brought back some mystery and intrigue for me. Those complaining that it changes the Doctor’s backstory in a bad way...I couldn’t disagree more. The Doctor is still the Doctor. The first Doctor will always still be the first Doctor. He/she just had more lives before that. Lives in which he/she didn’t take on the title of the Doctor yet. It also gives a great reason for the Master to be insane and jealous. Gallifrey being gone again and the Doctor being “special” gives the character that “last of a species” feeling again. Though I suspect we’ll find out she’s actually human with the ability to regenerate. That’s why she cares so much for humans. Just a crazy theory though. :)

Gabriel Rodrigues dos Santos

I think it was very confusing. I think Chibnall was a fan of the story "The Brain of Morbius" and always wanted to explore the Doctor pre-Hartnell. But he did in a very convoluted way and he failed to connect this plot with anything happening in this episode. And also raised a lot of questions. Jo Martin's Doctor had a Tardis in the shape of a police box and called herself the Doctor. This means she has always had the same Tardis and called herself the Doctor even though the first Doctor chose the name and the Tardis by chance? I digress. I'm expecting to see if Chibnall does something with this; Because I felt it was unnecessary. And why Jack didn't wanted the Cyberium with the Lone Cyberman? I think it was just because Chibnall wanted a cool cameo.

Harry Utton

It felt very strange to me. I felt like all of the moments where I could tell they wanted to me to be emotionally connected fell flat, I've felt this way for the entire though to be honest.

Scott Hadden Jnr

This is quite possibly the worst thing that could ever have happened to Dr. Who. I'm sad that Chibnall is staying because it means we get more convoluted storytelling that completely ruins the stories of every Doctor that's come before.

Kevin Bartelen

There is just so much about that explanation that didn't make sense. I honestly think it would have been better if The Master was the timeless child.

Tilted Krow

This has put the nail in the coffin for me. While I wont say its bad it's clear to me chibnials era of doctor who just isn't for me. I'll Shirley return whenever we have a new showrunner but I think I'm done with chibnall for now

Anonymous

Honestly doctor who lost its touch way back when David tenant left the show

Anonymous

I love it!!! And I think Chibnall tried to bring together some lore that was written in Classic Who. From I read from fans of Classic Doctor Who, the story "brain of morbius" arc showing multiple doctors from pre-hartnell was a story arc before the story arc that introduce the 12 limit regenerations. so the "brain of morbius" story was NOT canon before "the timeless children" made that story canon, before the brain of morbius conflicted with the 12 limit regenerations lore. I think blindwave (with willing members) will have to a Classic Doctor Who reaction now to clear some of this confusion.

Axis 77

When it comes down to it, Chibnall has built himself the perfect Get Out. Who told us the story of the Timeless Child? A broken Matrix and the spiteful Master. Perfect definition of the Unreliable Narrator...

Anonymous

I'm mixed on it. I think as a story point isolated from anything else, it was good. It felt sufficiently foreshadowed and earned with things like Ruth. I also kind of like the idea that when when they gave the Doctor another set of regenerations back at the end of Matt Smith, it was really a bluff and they weren't actually doing anything What upsets me about the reveal is that I don't like that they had to make the Doctor "special". To use an analogy that Aaron will understand, in Kingdom Hearts, the reason that Sora is so special is because he isn't. He's just a boy- he didn't have any special circumstances or forebears that made him great. He got the Keyblade on his own merits and was able to use it to do great things. Likewise, what made the Doctor so special wasn't any spectacular thing in their background. Sure, they were a Time Lord, but not a special Time Lord. Just someone going through time and and space making things better. By giving the Doctor this "special" past, it makes things feel cheaper. Like how much of what the Doctor has done been really because of how "special" they were? I don't really care about the changing of the history or anything. Maybe I would if I cared about Classic Who, but I don't. But I just feel like the Doctor's character was slightly ruined by this.

Aquitaine

I think Patreon ate my original comment so I'll try this again. There are more aspects of this episode that I liked than those I didn't, but I still have mixed feelings about it. One thing I like about Classic Who is that the Doctor was just an eccentric scientist with a stolen time-space machine having adventures with their friends. That really all changes, for me, once you get to the Seventh Doctor era. From then on, while the show pays lip service to the "just a mad man in a box" idea, in actuality, in the way they've characterized the Doctor, the way they've written the episodes, the way they have other characters interact with the Doctor, he's always been presented as special. He's the Oncoming Storm. He's destroying Gallifrey in the Time War. He's battling gods for the fate of reality. He's Zagreus. Whole armies turn and run away from him. Rassilon and Omega* are obsessed with him, for no reason I've ever seen adequately explained in world (although the obvious reason is because he's the protagonist in the story). So while I get why other fans have a problem centralizing the Doctor in this way, for me this is a ship that sailed in 1988. Chibnall is at least acknowledging this "the Doctor is special" trend that was already there through other show runners/writers/creators in world and giving us an explanation. I can appreciate that, even if I don't like the trend. We'll see if the explanation sticks, because other commenters are right, he's created this in such a way that he doesn't saddle future writers/show runners with having to deal with the Timeless Child stuff if they don't want to. They can take it up or ignore it as they will, which I think is kind of a generous thing to do for future show runners. Better than *cough* destroying and undestroying Gallifrey, for example. The episode also puts to bed the question of how many regenerations the Doctor has and that's fine. It doesn't mess with the history of any of the Doctors or prior events in any substantive way, although it does make some things in Classic Who make more sense. As far as other Timeless Child regenerations before the First Doctor, it depends on what they do with that idea. If the First Doctor is still the First Doctor, and all the regenerations before that are the Timeless Child, then fine. The episode actually made me fear for the Doctor and her companions, which is something that doesn't always happen. I'm with Aaron on not liking how the end was resolved with Ko Sharmus and the Death Particle, but agree with Melanie it was probably done that way to save time. I got a little tired of the Master-splaining exposition, something I never thought possible because I love Sacha Dhawan's Master, and would have liked the Doctor to have more to do, but that wasn't a big issue for me. I loved the Master confronting Ashad with how boring the plan to make Cybermen into robots was and I enjoyed Sacha and Jodie's performances throughout the episode. (* The Omega stuff goes further back into the Fifth and Third Doctor eras, but hopefully you take my point.)

Aquitaine

Also, I'm really happy for fans of "The Brain of Morbius" who finally got those earlier Doctors made canon. I wasn't old enough to be a fan when that episode aired, but that must have been a wonderful feeling for them seeing those clips in this episode.

Aquitaine
>>33297761

How is it more concrete now than it was in previous eras? We now know that we know less about the Doctor's origins than we thought we knew as of "Twice Upon a Time."

Fallen

My question is why Jodie's TARDIS forgot to install shielding in this iteration, literally anybody can just teleport in

Zane

I've got my problems with it for sure, and while I've warmed up to the twist by this point in time, I still have a few issues with the episode. but overall, I thought it was a genuinely well made episode even if the twist may not be the greatest, it's hardly anything that would get me to stop watching the show, and they executed the episode the best way they could have with the pieces they were given to work with

Zane
>>33320442

I mean if they're still working under the jurisdiction of the past Time Lords, they might just have clearance to work around TARDIS systems. the Time Lords have a history of fucking with the doctor's tardis to get him where they wanted him to go lmao

Red Claw

It opens up the possibilities of Prequels. And I don't want Doctor Who Prequels. It also creates a lot of plotholes, that need explaining. Theres the mentioned River regeneration issue. Then you have to explain the Doctors grave on Trenzalore and why the other regenerations weren't in the Doctors timestream, when Clara and Eleven jumped in there. Donna is now not half-human-half-timelord, because the Doctor isn't a Timelord. Is Jenny another timeless child (Jenny is probably a problem solved with the Doctor being a timeless child and would explain her coming back to life). Why is the anatomy of Timelords and the timeless child the same? And that's only what I can think of right now.

Anonymous

I like it personally, and honestly I think the divisiveness of the reveal is actually a sign of the strength of the execution. When a show, especially one that has run for more than 50 years, promises a reveal that changes everything, it's a really bold claim to make. I think this reveal genuinely accomplished that, and that's part of why the reactions for this have been so passionate and so varied. While I don't know if it's an intentional parallel the writers are going for, you can almost see the Doctor and the Master's respective reactions as being reflective of the two major ends of the fans' reactions. For the fans that enjoy all the new possibilities opened up by this, you've got the Doctor accepting their past and seeing themselves as even more than they knew as a result. For those upset by the reveal, even to the point of dropping the show, there's the Master, furious by the reveal, by the secrecy, and by the implications and consequences, to the point that they burn their home planet down in reaction. That's not to say that either opinion is right or wrong, just that it almost seems like the crew anticipated the response ahead of time. I really enjoy where the story is going, personally. The reveal opens up new doors, a whole plethora of storylines. Just the potential for new Big Finish stories alone is tremendous. The reveal, like all good reveals, doesn't detract from or reject previous lore, just expands upon it. The time lords still developed time travel and developed from exposure to the time vortex, independent of the Timeless Child's influence. (Though, the extensions to their life-spans that resulted from acquiring regeneration probably helped.) The Doctor is still the Doctor. That title carries with it a promise, as was well established in "The Name of the Doctor," and their previous 14 iterations are the ones who devoted themselves to that promise. The Timeless Child is a part of their history, but that part is independent of their history as the Doctor, and all the significance of that developed identity. And unlike a lot of similar plots in other stories, this isn't treated like a Chosen One prophecy situation or a secret royal lineage or anything. The Doctor, in their current life and with their current memories, is just a random Gallifreyan who stole a TARDIS and slowly developed from an antisocial old man into a hero whose story spans all of time and space. All of their vast accomplishments, their titles, and their reputations evolved from their choices and their actions. This reveal doesn't apply some grand destiny or some new role, but instead reveals a history stolen from them, a past as a refugee who was exploited and lied to, but who helped to redefine an entire society. One last thing: one problem I see some people having with the reveal is that certain things don't seem to make sense yet. The appearance of Ruth's TARDIS, for instance. It's important to keep in mind that this is an ongoing story, and there is still more to be revealed and explained and elaborated upon. River's story, for example, didn't conclude with the reveal of her true identity, and actually spanned the runs of three separate doctors. What the Doctor saw in his room in "The God Complex" and the fates of the Cult of Skaro and the true story behind the end of the Time War all took a good chunk of time to fully reveal. That said, it's entirely valid to take issue with the pacing of a story. If you feel that more should have been revealed within this episode, that's fine. It's just important to acknowledge that this isn't the end of the story and this isn't the entirety of the reveal. There is more story to come, with lots of opportunities to address the nagging questions and apparent inconsistencies.

Stephanie

I'm not sure how to feel about this. While I liked the idea of the timeless child and how the timelords copied her regeneration abilities, I felt like that child being the Doctor was a bit too much and over the top. Not to mention all the plotholes it creates.

Ethan Prendergast

I like the idea of the timeless child coming from another dimension, and origins of Galifrey stuff. But I didn't need it to end up being the doctor. Why complicate stuff, you can add to the lore of Doctor who without directly tying it to the doctor. Have it be a relative of the doctor if you want or just create a new character.

Stefanniko

It's the whole chosen one trope, i prefer idea that the doctor is just another time lord who was kind of mad and eccentric and became a defender of the universe, the idea that the doctor is inherently special and not self made kind just isn't as interesting to me

Anonymous

I was really hoping to see Susan again 🙃

deltaforce

I really like the reveal and I am ok with the doc being the timeless child. As for the plot holes with River, it is possible for her to be imbibed with regenerations from the TARDIS energy. The creation of the TARDIS it-self can be a product from the timeless child, just like the regenerations are for humans it can be for the machine. The TARDIS has been destroyed and come back with a 'new face' after each doctor. It is also possible as the TARDIS seems to "speak" to the Doctor. Maybe it recognizes the Doctor as its kin, a part of themselves. Doctor-Dona also works she touched the regeneration energy and it went into her maybe humans cannot handle the DNA of whatever race the doctor is from and Tec-te-un's race could. Doctor 'getting' more re-generations in The Time of the Doctor also makes sense. The Galifray-ians "gave" him more regenerations because if they did not he could have re-generated any way.... and that would open a can of worms they did not want to address. "How can the doctor regenerate for the 13th time Rasalon?" "What makes him so special?" And also the fact that the doctor is special and ordinary at the same time. Special to the Timelords for what the Timeless child could do. Ordinary for the original race that child belonged to. Special to the universe for that the Doctor would do. Ordinary to himself cause he thought he was a renegade Timelord who wanted to live through time and space. S/He is an ordinarily special person :) P.S. make it a 5 man crew Melanie needs to be in the Doctor who reactions. She is a Whovian, do not take that away from us. If the discussions runs long who cares??!! At least you are one of the few ppl who actually discuss.