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Guests: Harun Maruf & Dan Joseph, authors & journalists 

Recorded: November 27, 2018

The War Nerd talks to the authors of "Inside Al-Shabaab: The Secret History of Al Qaeda's Most Powerful Ally", an excellent and well-reported book on Somalia's wars with the deadly and remarkably innovative jihadi insurgents. Maruf and Joseph take us back through Somali history, explaining how clan structure works in an otherwise homogenous society, how Somalia had traditionally been one of the most stable regions in Africa, who the Islamic Courts were, and how the key figures who founded the radical Al Qaeda offshoot, Al-Shabaab, played a very long game that started during the Afghanistan mujahideen war against the Soviet Union in the late 1980s . . . 

Buy their book "Inside Al-Shabaab: The Secret History of Al Qaeda's Most Powerful Ally." 

Harun Maruf is senior editor of VOA's Somalia service; Dan Joseph is editor of VOA's Africa desk. Follow Harun Maruf on Twitter. Follow Dan Joseph on Twitter. 

MAPS

* Horn of Africa

* Somalia political map

* Ethnic Somali distribution map

* Photo of Ethiopian troops marching towards Somali troops in Ogaden border war, 1978


Total time: 2:02:35

Direct link to this episode's mp3 here 

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Comments

Anonymous

Great interview, first time interviewing 2 at once and it worked well. Maybe you can one day have one or both on to talk on depth about the Ogden war. I know John wrote an article on it, or maybe it only talked about it briefly. But we never hear much about African wars (well more here then anywhere else anyway), it seemed like a big conventional war, and has blowback today. Plus t-34's in heavy use 40 years after ww2 that's cool enough

Anonymous

Literally became a patron for this ep.... very hard to find information on Somalia

Anonymous

Where is the RSS feed ?

Tariq

Excellent interview and really important topic. One of those things that I always hear about and thought I vaguely understood but really didn’t know shit about.

Anonymous

Good episode, as a Somali speaker I’d add that there are different dialects and that’s one way to sort of tell what area/tribe someone’s from. And I may have missed it but I don’t remember hearing anything about Qatar funding al shabaab.

Anonymous

Good episode! Always like Somalia content, there are way too many misconceptions of the situation and history of that country out there. It would be cool to do a Mohammed Abdullah Hassan and the Dervish rebellions episode some day…. Also, Somalia had some pretty great music in the 70s and 80s: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW-Mht7TuR8" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW-Mht7TuR8</a> <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgIOdlJliKU." rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgIOdlJliKU.</a> The whole Sweet as Broken Dates comp is a great starting point. Regarding what John said about recognizing differences between ethnic groups in Bosnia. What his friend said is definitely true when differentiating between people *from* Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia, but *within* Bosnia, everyone speaks more or less the same. For example, someone from Sarajevo has a Sarajevo accent regardless of their ethnicity. This has slightly changed post-war with the introduction of standardized varieties of Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian in school curriculums in Bosnia. I was reminded of a scene from a Serbian comedy film that is set in 1991. In the film, a truck driver is driving through Bosnia and runs into a makeshift roadblock from some local villagers. At one point the militia men confront the driver and ask him: “Well, whose side are you on?” -“Our side” the driver replies “But, who are we?” -“I dunno, man, it’s all the same shit (in serbo-croatian it’s dick) to me” “We may be the same my friend, but our dicks are not, drop your pants!” He was of course referring to the fact that Muslims are generally circumcised while Christians aren’t. So it can be pretty tough to tell the difference!

radiowarnerd

That's a great story! As for the Dervish rebellion, I am now frantically looking it up...

radiowarnerd

Thanks, yeah, I had to un-learn a lot too. It's so hard to get good information on Africa.

Mark Ames

Not that I'd be at all surprised after all we've learned lately, but has it been established that Qatar funded Shabaab?

Anonymous

Not sure but they’ve been accused by the us (in private) and denied it, my mom was out there recently and she told me it’s like common knowledge that’s where they get their money from <a href="https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/us-accused-qatar-funding-somalias-al-shabab-militia-wikileaks-reveals" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/us-accused-qatar-funding-somalias-al-shabab-militia-wikileaks-reveals</a>

Mark Ames

Thanks for this link. Ali Abunimah has done some great journalism over the years.

Anonymous

Here’s another old Wikileaks cable showing US Assistant Secretary for African affairs telling the African Union chair Eritrea and Qatar fund al shabaab, scroll down to the part about Somalia <a href="https://search.wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/09TRIPOLI562_a.html" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://search.wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/09TRIPOLI562_a.html</a>

hamburglar

Derek Davison touched on this in a recent episode of his podcast, unfortunately I don't recall the exact one... <a href="https://www.patreon.com/davisond13">https://www.patreon.com/davisond13</a>