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Attack on Titan 4x7: "Assault" // Early Access Reaction and Discussion (Patreon)

Published:
2022-11-23 21:24:21
Imported:
2022-12

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Attack on Titan 4x7: "Assault" // Early Access Reaction and Discussion

00:00 Intro 06:09 Reaction to Show 17:01 Discussion

Comments

Tibbers

Many say that they are both in the wrong, but my question to people that think that way is: What was Paradis supposed to do at this point in time exactly? If the whole world just got together to exterminate on country, is that country supposed to sit there and accept their fate? And don't give me some diplomacy bs cause we all know no one except one country wanted to have a conversation with Paradis in the first place. I'm also not saying killing people is the answer either, just want to see what you would do in Eren's shoes.

Sevenpsych

260,000 people on paradis died as a result of the first wall being broken.

Albertan Motorcyclist
>>96228642

and according to Willy the eldians killed several billion. But it's not about the numbers, its the idea that both sides are equally in the wrong and in the right, and at the end of the day are the same as one another

Albertan Motorcyclist

I disagree about not being able to fully empathize with the marleyans and marleyan-eldians. You say they attacked paradis first, but the same logic is what marley uses in the first place to justify their subjugation of the eldians. According to them the eldian empire attacked them and the world first and oppressed them for over a millennium. It makes the who did what first thing irrelevant, because both sides have dark pasts and have committed bad actions, which they justify with the old "the enemy did it first". I'm more with Ben on this one, I'm not 100% on any side and it hurts to see characters we love doing this to each other. But I think that inner moral debate we get inside our heads as we watch this show is one of its best aspects

Jo
>>96230798

Yeah, narrowing it down to just "who attacked who first" would actually make the Eldians of Paradis *much* more guilty than Marley, at least considering them as a whole group. Literal generations of subjugation and forced breeding. Anna may be forgetting that bit of knowledge, or maybe just not considering it since we never directly saw it?

Anonymous

They didn't attack until Marley and the rest of the world declare war on them...

Anonymous
>>96230798

the difference is that the "eldian empire" that attacked first was comprised of individuals who do not exist anymore. Paradis is a society comprised of people who had done nothing, knew nothing and had no hostile intent towards anyone else (they didn't even know of anyone else), they just had ancestors who did wrong. On the other hand, the Marley that is currently being attacked is the exact same society as the one which sent titans to slaughter paradis and is full of people who believe the people on the island should be exterminated. It is not their ancestors who "attacked first", it is literally them. For that reason, it's very understandable to sympathise to a higher degree with paradis than with Marley.

Jo
>>96230798

@Aidan, but Marley and none of the rest of the world knew that Paradis had no memory of their actions. The King left them with a *threat* of global destruction if they ever retaliated, and only the Tyburs knew that threat was empty. And the big war that ended the Eldian Empire's reign was only 108-ish years ago - that really isn't *that* long ago. Like, it's very possible that older Eldians in both Paradis and Marley could have had grandparents or even parents that fought in that war, depending on life expectancy within the walls. I understand people being *more* sympathetic to Paradis still, they were put in an incredibly unfortunate position after having their memories wiped. But it's not as if this all came about for no reason.

Zyrus
>>96230798

This is a bad take on the situation, and I'll tell you why. Your words would hold weight if the King was still in power. He was part of the lineage that kept the people in the walls docile by force. That whole situation is gone and been overthrown. Marley /cannot/ know their intentions without actually asking them... and judging by what WIlly said, it doesn't look like they even tried. Marley is fully in the wrong here, no matter how anyone tries to justify otherwise.

Anonymous
>>96234383

This is an important distinction. People want to act like the grey morality means both sides have equal blame but that's simply not true. Whether Eren and Paradis struck Liberio or not Marley and the rest of the world were declaring war to exterminate the people on the island. So Eren's attack is just as much defense as it is revenge. The distinction there doesn't matter because it was the only path for survival

Anonymous
>>96230798

What Aidan said, also in order to meet the coming need for technological progress, the authorities of Marley turned their attention to Paradis Island and the plentiful fossil fuels it possessed. This is why Marley sent Marcel, Bertholt, Annie and Reiner to attack Paradis. They knew the King wasn't fighting back. They were just afraid of falling behind in technology so they want to murder everyone on the island to keep being the top nation that everyone fears. The people on the island never did a thing to Marley.

Jason Chan

Every evil leader in history has their own justifications for killing civilians and children, it's all the same BS just from different angles.

Zyrus
>>96228642

@Albertan Motorcyclist This is a fallacy argument. Paradis left Marley alone, Marley struck first and directly killed a quarter million people who did nothing at all to perpetuate any of that, if it even happened (marley is to be heavily propagandist and Imperial themselves, so I don't buy it without independent confirmation). Then, after Paradis had a rebellion overthrow that government, Marley never bothered to even try talking to Paradis about their new intentions, instead assuming the worst.

Anonymous
>>96230798

@Jo none of that has any bearing on my point though, I didn't claim that it was a long time ago that Paradis was inhabited by eldians who were oppressive, I just said that it isn't currently inhabited by any of those people. 108 years isn't that long that's right, but it is long enough to ensure that none of the perpetrators of aggression are alive anymore. As for the threat from the king, that is a threat of self defence so it is very different from the threat made by Willy and does not justify an attack from Marley.

D

Anna, that moment of self reflection when you realize you're cheering on/not as critical of Paradise doing the same thing that was done to them, is exactly what Isayma was going for. Sadly, many fail to realize that they are falling right into the same traps the story itself is condemning. I really hope yall watch the anime Monster after this.

Albertan Motorcyclist
>>96230798

@Aidan You're missing the important part. Yes, there's a difference between Marley attacking Paradis and Paradis attacking Marley. They aren't the same situation, but the entire point is that justifying objectively evil and amoral actions by citing your enemy doing something first is very dangerous. Using the logic of "you're evil because your group did something first" is the exact reason the world of attack on titan is a mess to begin with. It's why Marley and the ENTIRE WORLD feels justified in their actions against eldians. Yes, the people of Paradis who were killed in season 1 were innocent, but so are the vast majority of the people killed in this raid on Marley. The raid mostly killed eldians and low level individuals who have no responsibility for the attack on paradis, and foreign ambassadors and news people. Assigning guilt by association to Marleyans for simply being from Marley is the same thing Marley does towards Paradis and eldians in general, assigning them responsibility for actions they had no part in. The majority of the characters we see killed in this raid are likable good people: the gate guards friendly with the kids, Udo, Zofia, the kind elderly woman, Piek's sqaud, etc. Justifying Paradis as doing nothing wrong here totally omits the entire message of Attack on Titan. It's ok to think that Paradis may have some justification for attacking Marley and reluctantly think there may not have been many other options, but to pretend Paradis is doing nothing wrong and ignoring the evil they're committing because you don't like Marley as a group is just totally ignoring reality and the nuance of perspective that is so critical to the show. And claiming Paradis is totally separate from the history of the eldian empire is disingenuous if we're gonna associate everyone from Marley with what Marley has done; Paradis is literally the eldian empire, not a separate group or state. Paradis is simply the relocated eldian empire that ran away from it's responsibility in creating havoc in the world, with the same lineage of the eldian empire still ruling paradis continuously to this day. It's unreasonable to expect the world to see them as a separate entity with no connection to the past. While Paradis may have had their memory wiped the rest of the world did not, and they know what eldia is and did. And no, this isn't doesn't justify Marley and the world's treatment of eldians and paradis, just as paradis deserves criticism for what they just did to the world. In the context of this world its understandable why all the sides feel the way they do, but as audience members who have no part in this world and who have a more objective view of what has occurred, it's absurd to claim that Paradis are noble good guys and pretend that only one side here is justified.

Forrial

Eren did what he had to. After being declared war on you dont wait for your enemies to hit you, you take every chance. Even more so if you are at such a disadvantage. I AM 100% on Eren side.

pink

"it feels really divisive" yeah ...

M.N.

you are the first reactors I have seen who acknowledges the airship pilot lol

trouty42

What nobody mentions is how Marley even still exists if they were indeed targeted by Eldia of old. I haven't read the manga so it's possible it's explained there but if Eldia hated and committed all these atrocities against Marley, then it feels awfully convenient (storywise) that Marley survived. That's not really how ancient civilizations worked, invading armies would crush their foes and the names of countries would change. That Marley not only survived but managed to become the dominant civilization of the entire world feels pretty unlikely.

trouty42

Still, I love the anime so I pretty much ignore it, but it really makes the "who was worse" brain exercise pointless to me.

Eren Jaeger

Just wondering... will the new episode be posted today?

Flo A.

I think Ben's right not feeling at ease with the morality of both sides. The whole point is neither Paradis nor Marley are on the right. The situation is just extremely messed up.