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Wind Waker Boss Keys (Patreon)

Published:
2016-10-17 11:46:36
Imported:
2020-07

Content

Hello boys and girls

As usual, you can get an advanced sneak peak at the new episode.

This time, we're looking at GameCube game Wind Waker and seeing how Nintendo has (or hasn't) evolved the dungeon design.

And yes, I'm going to get hate mail for this one. Oh well :P

Files

16 October 2016

Uploaded by Mark Brown on 2016-10-16.

Comments

Liam Harvey

Hooray! The nerdiest YouTube show returns! Great job Mark. Graphs shouldn't be QUITE so sexy.

Anonymous

Absolutely excellent video! and this echoes my own opinion of this Zelda entry. Wind Waker is a fan favourite, and it's true that the inclusive experience of the game is a beautiful whole but I have always felt the dungeons in this game it be rather.. diluted. It just doesn't quite tickle that part of the brain that sees the dungeon as an over arching puzzle all to itself. You just sort of go through it.

Anonymous

Excellent breakdown on the WW dungeons. And an astute observation that Zeldas are better than the sum of their parts. It is not characterised by JUST its music, JUST it's art style or even JUST its dungeon design. Great video Mark.

Anonymous

Great episode! While Wind Waker still is my favorite Zelda, your criticism is very valid, I also think WW is one of the easiest Zeldas. But that made me think about something and I'd like to hear your opinion on in a future episode: how could Nintendo (or any other developer) create a dungeon with a difficulty scale? I know the answer is the optional items, that advanced players can go after those and find a bigger challenge, but is there a way where the player chooses the "hard mode" and then the structure and the puzzles get harder? (PS: I also left this comment on YouTube)

Anonymous

I feel like in this video there was too much of "#JOKE #NOJOKE" happening. It took away some of the professional feel which all your videos have. Other than that, great video!

GameMakersToolkit

I wrote this on YouTube. Passing on here: Hello! A quick update My use of "linear" and "non-linear" has been a sticking point throughout Boss Keys. That's my fault - you've gotta be careful with language as it can really muddy your message I've used it to mean two things: 1) Linear = Player must collect keys, open doors, and use items in a specific order. Non-linear = Player is given freedom to collect keys, open doors, and use items in an order of their choosing 2) Linear = Player moves from room to room in a direct path to the boss, never needing to return to a previous area. Non-linear = Player returns to previously-visited rooms with new items or after changing the dungeon layout. The first use is legit. The second is confusing. So I will be changing to a new set of terms for the second use, in the next video. Right now I'm thinking single-layered and multi-layered dungeons. We'll see. Join me for Minish Cap to see!

GameMakersToolkit
>>2796879

Haha, that's fair enough. I was trying to avoid the inevitable backlash of criticising a beloved Nintendo game but I may have gone too far :P

GameMakersToolkit
>>2795866

Oh man. I ignored it on YouTube because I didn't know how to answer. But now I have to! Stupid idea off the top of my head: put the map and compass in a shop. These two items are really valuable and can drastically decrease the complexity of a dungeon. By having them as objects you can buy (in a shop just outside the dungeon door), newbies can grind for rupees and buy them, while advanced players can go without. What do you reckon?

Matthew Wilmsmeyer

It took me two watches to realize you missed a really critical piece of information - you pointed out the linearity, and the puzzle motifs, but you never added 2+2 to create 4. That is, it's much harder to do puzzle motifs and buildups when you have a nonlinear dungeon layout. And I feel like this was answered somewhere else, but are you planning on releasing the layout maps you've been showing at some point? Or going back and making them for the games you covered before you created the layout design?

GameMakersToolkit
>>2797655

Hey. Yeah, I will be releasing the graphs. Just got to make sure that I don't need to change anything or add anything new as I play more games and understand more things You make an interesting and valid point. But two things: when I say linearity I don't mean doing things out of order. (See my comment on this Patreon post). I mean having to back to previous rooms to solve puzzles. So the puzzle motifs could work just fine in this context. Either way, I don't feel like the puzzles always rise in complexity. They are mostly variations on a theme and as long as you solve the first puzzle first (it's always in the first room), it wouldn't matter which you encounter next.

Matthew Wilmsmeyer
>>2796947

I think the second definition could be easily served by the already-established term "backtracking." So straightforward would be "no backtracking." Also, single- and multi-layered may be confused with the verticallity of rooms or dungeons.

Liam Harvey

Bit of a nerdy question Mark, do you create GMT's motion graphics in After Effects or Premiere Pro? A lot of cool visuals with the graphs in the Wind Waker vid, but I'm thinking more specifically say, the mansion routes shot in the Hitman GMT. I'd LOVE to know how to attempt something like that. Throw some tips or search key terms at me? I wanna go on a YouTube tutorial hole!

GameMakersToolkit
>>2798274

I use Premiere. Would you guys be interested in getting some video making tutorials on the Patreon?

Anonymous

This video is already on youtube. Why does it say this is a sneak peek? (Not that it matters, just wondering what's up with that description)

Liam Harvey
>>2798373

It's still privately viewed via Patreon. Its gotta be hosted somewhere! ;)

Anonymous

Really liked this one, keep it up ! I think the majority of your audience respects that you present your arguments in the most objective way possible. I agree with someone that pointed out that you were maybe trying a bit too hard to pass a controversial point as a "joke/notajoke" though. Your points are reasonable and you don't present them as a rant, but rather as a thorough analysis (sick graphs btw). Just be more confident in yourself. All the best!

Sacha Greif

I would buy a poster of all the dungeons graphs for all Zelda games :)

Anonymous

Excellent work Mark, surprised how much I agreed with this one. I'm currently reading a book called Game Mechanics: Advanced Game Design which you might find interesting, chapter 11 goes very in depth on Zelda's dungeon mechanics (Progression Mechanisms).

Rich Stoehr

Excellent video, Mark. Wind Waker is still a favourite of mine, but when I think about playing it, I don't think I was ever really challenged by it. I just loved flying around the sea in a boat, mostly. And that beautiful animation...

SpeckObst

This was also my main problem with "A Link Between Worlds". I never had to think about where to next as it was always so obvious. Why even have a dungeon layout then? To trick people into thinking they're unraveling a complex structure of interconnected rooms when they really are just going from room to room in the same predictable order? The devs could have easily presented each room of the dungeon in a straight line. I always thought of the Spencer Mansion in REmake as a great Zelda Dungeon. Each key opens up multiple doors with multiple rooms to explore, full of different items or puzzle objects for you to interact with and think about. The whole game is basically about route planning, backtracking and "solving" the mansion in a mostly non linear (multi layered) fashion.

GameMakersToolkit
>>2802032

Yeah, i had a similiar feeling with ALBW. It's a bit disheartening to receive comments on the vids like "I don't mind if the solution is obvious, i don't like getting lost!". Ah well, can't please everyone ;)

Anonymous

I'm kinda of an impulsive person and I pretty much never look at maps, and watching your video made me realize why I had such a good time with Wind Waker. It is, indeed, a very linear game. With that said, I was expecting some comments regarding the layout o the rooms. I may be remembering thins wrong (last time I played when the original version came out), but aren't the rooms freaking huge and they usually require you to go back and forth (without actually leaving it) to solve the room's puzzle and then proceed?

GameMakersToolkit
>>2802827

There's a few rooms like that - the last room of the Earth temple with all the mirrors for example. I didn't find them particularly involving but i'll be looking at more of this stuff as i ease off on structure.

Anonymous

Since I made a demanding remark on the episode without a script, I'd like to say that I think Game Maker's Toolkit is a high-quality video series and the Boss Keys sub-series is excellent. That's why I support you through Patreon. Really like those dungeon graphs and the animations that help illustrate the point. Good job!

OSW Review

Hey Mark! Absolutely love your work on Boss Keys. I know you started with ALTTP because from your first ep it "established the formula and introduced iconic elements like the master sword, heart pieces and the hookshot." I was wondering if you had any stray thoughts on the first two, or are they too straight forward for analysis? All the best, Jay

GameMakersToolkit
>>2984618

I'm definitely going to go back and look at them in a video. When I started the series I thought I was focusing on the crazy puzzle box dungeons like The Water Temple, and thought it'd take too long to get to them if I started on the NES. But as the series has turned into a more general thing on exploratory level design it's only right to see where it all started. I'll probably do them at the end.