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GMTK Redux - Roguelikes, persistency, and progression (Patreon)

Published:
2019-01-28 15:02:21
Edited:
2019-06-28 04:35:49
Imported:
2020-03

Content

Hey everyone! 

So for the first time in GMTK history, I've decided to remove a video, remake it, and reupload a new version.

My original video - "Should roguelikes have persistent upgrades?" - received some negative comments about the video's approach. That doesn't usually faze me - there's always some backlash! - but this time, I found myself agreeing with those comments.

The main issue was that the original video leaned too heavily on my personal opinion (i.e. that roguelikes are better without persistent upgrades) - and made it seem like my preferences were “correct”, and everyone else’s was “incorrect”.

That’s not true, of course, and so I’ve tried to make the video more balanced and evenhanded - by looking at the advantages and disadvantages of both including and not including persistent upgrades. That's how it should have been from the start.

I also felt like the original video had comments that seemed to be in favour of things I’ve vehemently fought *against* on Game Maker’s Toolkit! 

The original video praised roguelikes for being unbeatable by low-skilled players, but I dislike inaccessibility and gatekeeping. So I've presented that as a drawback of the genre and talked about ways to design around that.

Also, the video could have be seen as me being in favour of very restrictive genre definitions ("roguelikes must never have persistent upgrades!!!") whereas in reality, I think restrictions like that can lead to boring games. So I've tried to get away from that in this new script.

I’m sure some people will be just as negative about me changing the video - but I think this was the right move for me and the channel. 

GMTK is a tricky beast because it balances opinion and education and, sometimes, I’m just going to get that completely wrong. You've seen me struggle with that here on Patreon before, and I'm going to keep on dealing with it until I get it right. Thanks for your patience while I wrestle with this. 

Cheers! More Patreon rewards coming later this week!

Mark

Files

Roguelikes, Persistency, and Progression | Game Maker's Toolkit

One of the biggest decisions for any developer making a roguelike, is whether or not to add persistent upgrades. Should every run be the same, like Spelunky? Or should your character get more powerful over time, like Rogue Legacy? Let’s look at the pros and cons of both approaches. Support Game Maker's Toolkit on Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/GameMakersToolkit Have Mark talk at your studio, university, or event - https://gamemakerstoolkit.tumblr.com Games shown in this episode (in order of appearance) Enter the Gungeon (Dodge Roll, 2016) Rogue (A.I. Design, 1980) Monolith (Team D-13, 2017) Crypt of the NecroDancer (Brace Yourself Games, 2015) The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth (Nicalis / Edmund McMillen, 2014) Spelunky (Derek Yu, 2012) Rogue Legacy (Cellar Door Games, 2013) Dead Cells (Motion Twin, 2018) Slay the Spire (Mega Crit Games, 2019) FTL: Faster Than Light (Subset Games, 2012) Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare (Infinity Ward, 2016) Flinthook (Tribute Games, 2017) Nuclear Throne (Vlambeer, 2015) NetHack: Legacy (FrozenCrate, 2018) Downwell (Moppin, 2015) Hades (Supergiant Games, In Early Access) Into the Breach (Subset Games, 2018) Invisible, Inc. (Klei Entertainment, 2015) Music used in this episode Curiosity - Blue Wednesday (https://soundcloud.com/bluewednesday) Spelunky soundtrack - Eric Suhrke (https://phlogiston.bandcamp.com/album/spelunky) Donut County soundtrack - Daniel Koestner (https://open.spotify.com/album/6SFBSlMnqv8xd2aQcagqaq) Other credits Zero Deaths Victory! World First! World Record! [Rogue Legacy] | ZorsYT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVpx3QpC6NM

Comments

Anonymous

Much respect, Mark. Excited to watch the new version.

Anonymous

That is rare, seeing one's mistake, accepting it, correcting it and being vocal about all this. Well done Mark!

Anonymous

Good job for being open and re-evaluating your own opinions. Never a bad thing and so I look forward to watching this redux.

Johan Lieu

Awesome, really appreciate this. I’m a big fan of rogue likes but have a terrible schedule (~70-80 hours for work, plus spending quality time with the family) so it’s not really conducive to finding time to “git gud” and beat these kinds of games. That’s why I _really_ love Rogue Legacy and Dead Cells. I know that I’m grinding for levels basically, but I really have ~20-30 minutes a night to play games (if I’m lucky) so I really appreciate not being locked out of those experiences even if I don’t have time to get good at them the “right” way anymore.

Naryoril

I like the new version much better. The old version is the first GMTK video where i thought "ehhhh... i'm not sure about this"

Reutermo

This is really intresting thing do to, and I really respect you for it. I feel that it is a pretty uncommon thing for people to change their mind on the internet. Personally I really prefer roguelikes with persistent upgrades, that kind of metaprogression is really nice, it gives me a reason to come back to a game. But I still think that you had multiple good points in the old video, and I agree that the type of upgrades Enter the Gungeon have is better than Rogue Legacy. And in the end it was apparent that it was your opinon, it is impossible to not be atleast a bit partial when you produces something like this.

Anonymous

This is the correct call. Thanks, Mark.

Anonymous

Much better video , while I didn't think the quality of last video was bad it did have a weird "salty" tone. Also I would say dead cells difuclty does get easier with the health upgrades and such but it's only to a point after that I would say then it transition to a more Rouge like game.

Anonymous

I agree with everyone else, I definitely felt that you presented the previous video's opinions as being more "correct" and a more neutral approach fits your typical style and does better justice. This is definitely the right call and massive kudos for your willingness to admit when something didn't go the way you wanted and owning and fixing the mistake. This is just further evidence of why you're such an awesome guy, keep up the great work and thank you!

Anonymous

Very interesting exercise to observe the differences between the two version. A very clear and welcome shift in tone.

Anonymous

I like the direction you took with this remake. I'm a long time fan of GMTK so I knew you didn't mean to praise inaccessibility and gatekeeping since you're not that type of guy but that isn't obvious to others, and I doubt any of us patrons will notice this kind of stuff since we know you more or less. Good job looking for feedback from all sources.

Anonymous

I appreciate you redoing the video. I do still feel that it is still a little biased against rogue-lites though. I feel like you've focused on your difficulty curve as the negative reason you don't appear to like this style of game design and liken it to dopamine addiction games like COD or (dare I say) grindy mobile games. But I think the huge point you're missing is that these games have a natural difficulty curve in them through regular level progression anyway. The further into the game you get the more difficult the enemies are and the world is often more treacherous. Adding in permanent upgrades simply flattens that curve out a bit. In reality this is actually closer to most current games that feature progression systems, rather than being different to every other style of game (which is what you claim at the beginning). Anyway, it's still an interesting discussion but I think you still haven't quite nailed the opposing points here in my opinion.

Josh Foreman

But now my brilliant criticism is gone! NOOOOoooooo!

Anonymous

Thank you for doing this! I wasn't an original commentor, but, this was the first video you produced where after watching it, I actually felt like it was more of an emotional rant, as opposed to a measured examination of game design and of game design mistakes. If anything, as other people have noted, the first version of the video felt like a "You have to get gud or go home" vibe to it, which is not your usual style (and one of the reasons why I like what your produce.) My personal story as a video game fan is that I very much appreciate an "easy mode" or "grind mode" because I don't have the reflexes to play fast response games anymore. (The downward decline in my Geometry Wars scores has been very annoying.) If the only way to experience a game's content is to "get gud", I don't bother playing, because I know I won't get to see it all -- and why waste my time on a game I'll never get to see all the content for, when there are hundreds of games coming out every year? (Especially when you only have maybe 2-3 hours a week to play games.)

Anonymous

Takes a really responsible author to admit a shortcoming of the script and iterate to a better version. You rock Mark!

Anonymous

It sounds like you're handling this really well! Handling criticism professionally takes a lot of responsibility and I think you're doing the right thing in keeping your brand consistent.

Max Goldstein

First, thank you for owning up to your mistake and fixing it. I think this version is a lot more balanced. Second, this seems to be a trend among people who make videos on YouTube about video games where they get criticized for presenting their opinion as fact. (Snoman: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWSdtpQgmsY," rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWSdtpQgmsY,</a> Joseph Anderson: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu8u2SxarEE)." rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu8u2SxarEE).</a> While I'm linking out, there's also Design Doc with how you can play with the Rogue formula: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM588ci-sMQ" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM588ci-sMQ</a>

Anonymous

Appreciate the redux. I was plenty happy with the old one, but this one definitely approaches the subject in a far more balanced and respectful manner. I’m glad that you still kept your opinion, however, keeping it for the end. It seems to me that placement at the end works quite well as a format for these videos, perhaps keeping both the “opinion as fact” critics at bay while allowing the reality of your opinion to come into your videos (as they should). Nonetheless, a great video as always. Thanks so much for looking out for feedback, not many who would do that. (:

Anonymous

Hello, Mark In the world of AAA, corporations like EA and Activision rehash the same ideas to milk franchises. They choke creativity and do harm. That deserves harsh criticism. But roguelikes are not exactly in that corporate world. I believe indie games are art and art is not an exact science. So it is ok to have an opinion. I like both videos. Both have valid points. But I reject the idea that a creative should redo his work so it matches with the opinions in his audience. Art is subjective. Our opinions matter. But yours matter as well

Anonymous

I once wrote a comment to Mark saying "You just really need to examine yourself critically and communicate clearly. Phrases like "I feel like", "I think" or "I'm pretty sure" all express different subjective positions and should be used adequately." - which was far from ideal. I think (!) the second sentence is fine, pretty good even, but the first sentence has some serious issues. To examine yourself critically is a really difficult thing, so using the word "just" at the beginning makes for a dissonance between the two parts of the sentence and I feel like (!) it leads to the "just" part overshadowing the "examine yourself critically" part and as a result, the information gets distorted in your mind into something like "You just need to ... commmunicate clearly. Phrases like "I feel like", "I think" or "I'm pretty sure" all express different subjective positions and should be used adequately.". I also presented it as if it was an objective fact, when it was just my opinion, which means I ignored the very thing I was trying to say. I suspect (!) my comment might (!) have played a role in you making a bad video and I'm really sorry. As for roguelikes, I told you I didn't like Rogue Legacy, but I didn't like Enter the Gungeon either. I think each of them has problems because of specific game design choices, not because of having/not having permament upgrades per se. If things go well, I might make a video about it myself though, so I can't tell you any details.

Anonymous

Thank you very much, Mark, this video! It is very interesting and useful!

Anonymous

While I did enjoy the original video, I felt myself questioning bits of it here and there, which isn't normal for me while watching GMTK. I think it's a good call to rebalance the video. If for nothing else, it displays a great deal of integrity for you and your channel, which is becoming harder to find on YT.

MKFreigeist

Its great that youre open to criticism and even willing to encorporate it immediately! I really enjoy your videos and like u said.. Its not possible to get it precisely right every time. Ive learned a lot though and recently we even watched a video of yours (about how Uncharted is leading players through its levels) in university (Im studying game design atm)! So keep up the great work and we'll keep up the support!