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Please welcome Jessica Gonzalez to the show. For years, Jessica worked at various places across the Activision-Blizzard-King (or ABK) label, and she led (and still leads) the charge in highlighting the mega-publisher's seemingly copious worker-related infractions. Indeed, you may know the A Better Activision initiative, which she founded. Her goal? To unionize game development, both at the publisher-slash-developer level and by discipline. To what end? To ultimately offer workers more security, better pay, benefits, and treatment and a seat at the table. Are her goals realistic and in-line with what's best for gaming? That's subjective. But in an effort to supply our audience with as much information as possible about all topics relevant to our hobby -- and to offer a hand to anyone willing to talk about their ideas -- here's a decidedly pro-union pitch from a decidedly pro-union developer. As always, listen with an open mind and draw your own conclusions.

Note: This was recorded before Microsoft announced its intent to buy ABK.

Jessica on Twitter: https://twitter.com/_TechJess 

A Better ABK on Twitter: https://twitter.com/ABetterABK 

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Comments

Stephen Forgione

Absolutely loved this! Very thankful that both sides of the political spectrum are willing to meet and discuss the ultimate barrier: class. Keep up the great work!

Rage.Quit_Richard

I agree with her argument for a seat at the table in the main. But I don’t know if the movement has concretized what that “seat” looks like. Furthermore what essential benefits would be advocated for on behalf of the workers during that conversation - outside of employee retention and hand massages. Idealism is a wonderful thing but the details are everything.

LastStandMedia

I don't dislike the idea of devs and workers having a seat at the table, either, but I wish she was able to better define the mechanics of all of it.

Anthony A.

Definitely will give this a listen to today. I am very anti union (teacher unions frighten me) but I always listen with an open ear.

Ben Scott

What a fascinating conversation! It was great to hear two people meet in the middle. That doesn’t happen enough. LSM has the best interviews in the industry. Challenging and entertaining, just like the medium we all bond over.

Dalton

I’d be interested in her thoughts about the Microsoft acquisition

Matthew Two T's

As a member of a public sector union I can confirm they are indeed shit.

MarkGrouch

This was a great conversation, I’d love to hear her thoughts post Xbox acquisition.

Heathen James

I'll start with a big kudos to her for talking with you. I'm sure some of her "friends" are going to give her shit for this. That said, I'm sorry, but she offered absolutely nothing of substantive solution here. She spends the vast majority of the interview identifying things she doesn't like, but then offers, among few other things... hand massages as recompense. I'm not trying to be a dick but if you're going to be talking to the public like this you should at least be prepared with concrete details of what exactly you want that these corporations aren't giving you. It was very clear to me that her work experience is very limited. First of all she was in QA. That's just above a McDonald's employee's responsibilities and your expectations need to be at the same level as that position. I know because I've done it. Secondly, she cites many things that are endemic to corporate culture in general, not just gaming, and the problems she has cited encompases the entirety of the corporate world. If you're looking for a tailored solution to this problem, I don't think you're going to find it. Even Hollywood has been back and forth on this topic depending on where in the world they are, as Colin pointed out. Obviously overt misogyny/misandry and unwanted sexual advances shouldn't be allowed, but you need to define, with concrete evidence, what you're talking about and when/how it happened. It's extremely easy nowadays to just point a finger and claim 'misogyny!' and ruin someone's life and with very little, if nothing, to go on but someone's word. I must admit I cringed when she introduced herself with pronouns and talked about micro aggressions in a conversation about worker's rights. What you see as 'micro aggressions' are a *you* problem and not something an employer should be reasonably expected to cater to, especially when it's only a certain sub-set of culture/politically-minded types who actively seek to redefine language and behavior. The vast majority of what she talks about comes down to 'feelings' and 'comfort', and I'm sorry, but it's not a workplace's job to cater to your every demand. All of that said, she isn't wrong about nepotism and unfair treatment resulting from it, and the spread of wealth within a highly successful company. I do, however, highly disagree with her thinking it has to do with someone's sexual preferences and/or ethnicity rather than, as Colin accurately pointed out, likability/family relation/even sexual desire. Having worked in the corporate world for as long as I have you see this shit every day, but I've never once seen outcomes result due to a negative feeling towards someone's immutable characteristics or sexual preferences. It always boiled down to who brown-nosed the most, who was Mr/Mrs. Gladhands, and/or who was related to whom. Not saying it never happens, but the likelihood is remote. Personally, I think Jessica needs more perspective and experience. She's looking at the galaxy through a paper towel tube and while that can be very beneficial if you're trying to stay focused on one particular problem, you have to be able to articulate your desirable outcome more clearly and with less emotional rhetoric. Anyway, good episode, Col, as always.

Dennis Parker

My eyes rolled to the back of my head when she listed her pronoun’s and talked about micro aggressions. Frankly, I don’t believe anything bad actually happened to her. I’ve worked with people who just couldn’t handle the job. Then claimed everyone was out to get them. Kudos to her for having the balls to go on SS+ and say her peace. I’m just not buying it.

Gavin Newland

Yet again LSM putting out a conversation that most people wouldn’t entertain. Keep these kind of discussions coming Colin. Proud to support you guys 😄

Anonymous

Who the hell cares when someone states their pronouns? I would never do it but for it to trigger you is a little nutty lol. At this point you “anti-SJW” types are just as sensitive and “triggered” as the “SJWs”. I thought it was a productive conversation and Colin wouldn’t have her own if she didnt know what she was talking about.

Anonymous

Thank you Colin, I ironically have had the same move towards populism as you, I dont have all the answers and I do wish this guest was able to get a bit more nitty-gritty with details, but I guess we cant expect advocates to be policy-wonks. Unions arent perfect, but no system is. Other countries have managed to figure out unionzation, and so should we! When you look at the film industry as a parallel, the little guy has infinitely more power. From writers to make-up and special effects, theyre all treated much more fair compared to gamings counterparts (or at least it appears that way)

Anonymous

It varies case to case, and its not one size fits all forsure. My uncle had a wonderful experience with his public union, perhaps the idea is good in concept but varies case by case.

Anonymous

Completely agree. Unions have shit on me far more than any employer ever has. And don't get me started on the way union employees treat non-union employees (assuming that membership is even optional). Still, enjoyed this episode. It's definitely a topic I wondered about after the acquisition was announced.

Michael Schofield (making Audio Dramas)

This was an excellent episode, Colin. Another one. I woke up feeling gushy this morning so I just want to express my gratitude for your work going way back. I know there’s an economic transaction and I buy value you provide, but I think because you’ve been in my ears for the a dozen years or so, I just feel pride when you are doing well and still nailing it. Kudos homie.

Colton McKinney

Great episode. I think in general it’s just hard to unionize nowadays, especially when you’re dealing with a giant corporation. I work in manufacturing for a Fortune 500 company and our mill desperately needs to unionize. The problem is that whenever the corporate big wigs have “needed” to shut down mills in the past, they’ve always targeted the Union mills. There’s not a whole lot we can do. Not sure what will happen with Activision and Jessica’s movement now that Microsoft has swooped in, but I hope it works out for them. Unions, in my opinion, are still very much needed in the U.S.

Dan Nolin

I’m assuming this was recorded before Microsoft announced their intent to purchase Activision. Microsoft just threw a 10,000 pound wrench into the gear of the unionization efforts. I’m not saying it’s impossible, but it’s just been made 10 times more difficult.

Jamie Milligan

What a surprise! LSM ACTUALLY being bothered to give the hard working unionists an actual platform while mainstream Games media just talk about it indirectly. Great work from the guys n gals at Last Stand. And shout out to Jessica to coming on and being so nice and eloquent.

Raymond Stuart

Colin, I appreciated the conversation. It was definitely from a different perspective than I hold. I do think she had a little bit of naïveté when it comes to what a union would and would not accomplish and absolutely around corporate America. If you are a high performing worker in a union, you get paid under the same structured system as everyone else. But one reasoning against a union is that you can negotiate your own salary. Companies never share salary data. And there is absolutely always the opportunity to go elsewhere. A very simple search on Glassdoor seams to indicate some Activision positions are paid better than the industry ($81k vs $76k for Game Designer). I have no doubt ABK is a crap company to work for in general and I’m thankful that Microsoft will push Kotick out if the purchased is allowed.

Elliott Morgan

Thought provoking. Good to hear from someone on the front lines so to speak.

Adam Barnes

She announced her pronouns when introducing herself 🤢

Asique Alam

She has a nice voice. That's all I'll say.

Jack Sibert

Well... at least she was open to coming on the show to say her peace. Credit to her for optimism. Don't agree with her prognosis for unionization though.

MJ SKA BOI

I for one am happy she announced her pronouns. It is a decent and respectful behavior and it is good to see it becoming normalized. People commenting negatively about this really put me off. Hope that if she sees these comments, it won't deter her from coming back on the show. I enjoyed the convo and would love to hear her talk a bit more about this fight.

Peter Pham

I have to admit the pronouns was a tad jarring, but that feeling was very transit. Not quite done listening to the interview, but I'm enjoying it thoroughly. It's great to have so many different walks of life on your show! You're like the Joe Rogan (before spotify) of patreon!

Anonymous

I work along side a very large public sector union. In the beginning I did not understand the point but after work with them for a few years I see that with out this union a lot of the work would be easily taken advantage off. As where I live does not have alot of job opportunities. But for the games industry I'm not sure I understand why people don't work for the so called good companies. Also am I miss informed that everyone in the games industry gets paid a butt load of money as well? I find it wired to complain if you're breaking 6 figures

Christopher Smith

Oh boy she doesn’t sound as prepared as I feel she needs to be. And I guess that’s okay given that at least she is pushing back but she doesn’t seem to have the eloquence to effectively demonstrate what she is looking for moving forward.

LastStandMedia

I wanted to get more into the mechanics, which was disappointing. But I thought she did well. It's the beginning of a wider conversation, I hope.

LastStandMedia

A lot of private unions are interesting. My Uncle was in a private draftsman union his entire career and made absolutely insane money. It works for some folks. My dad's experience in the FDNY was more mixed.

Wyvborn

I very much enjoyed this conversation. Was a bit on the short side, but I'm glad she was able to talk about things from her perspective. I think some people are being a tad bit rude mentioning how she mentioned her pronouns as if it detracts from her story, but that's a totally sperate conversation. I'm glad LSM is able to have these kinds of discussions :)

Anonymous

I really appreciate this conversation. And kudos to Jessica for coming on and talking with Last Stand. I imagine there’s many in her circle that would heavily criticize her for talking with you. Hopefully a sign of a more civil environment in the future. :) This showed why I subscribe this podcast too: you ask the right questions. The questions on the politics and specific mechanics of it in particular.

Kevin Cooper

I think she made an excellent point when asked about other companies that are "doing it right". If you aim for that ideal vision from the get-go and you don't achieve any success, it could feel like a failure to the group and might impact the morale of the entire movement. But if you start by bargaining for a fair baseline, even the smallest steps forward can feel like successes and keep the movement going until you reach that ideal vision. This could apply to any goal that we set for ourselves really.

Nathan Henderson

If you didn't let something as simple/innocent as pronouns stop you, you'd find it's a very interesting discussion and well worth your time

Dana Anderson

I am disappointed that Colin didn’t ask tougher questions. Union’s have down sides, and none of that was addressed.

Chuck Rude

So the people who want unions the most have no idea what they really want? I get what her point is but they’re clearly not ready to unionize at this time and I’m more anti-union for the games industry than I was before… Crunch bad. Corps bad. Practices bad. Answers to questions that must be figured out to determine if this is a good idea or not? Never heard of it.

Alec Davis

The trend of stating pronouns should be locked in a rocket and launched directly into the sun, never to be seen or heard from again