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Sacred Symbols+, Episode 128: The Legality and Morality of Emulation (Patreon)

Published:
2021-10-12 16:01:03
Edited:
2021-10-20 16:07:16
Imported:
2022-01

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The gaming industry recently erupted over a story written on Kotaku all about Nintendo's newest Switch title, Metroid Dread, and how... well... great it looked and played on an emulator. And it's that word -- emulation -- that gets to the heart of today's episode of Sacred Symbols+. Emulation is as old as gaming, and the sad reality is that many people pirate even contemporary, readily-available games in addition to the rarer, older, or inaccessible fare of the past that can be far more easily justified. That's why I (Colin) invited Last Stand's legal analyst Rick Hoeg onto the show, and why we segmented our chat into two distinct sections: One that goes over legal issues having to do with gaming emulation, ROMs, distribution, and more, and then the far more gray ethical realm regarding what is essentially (regardless of how any of us choose to justify it) stealing. Then again, anyone can justify stealing in some situations, at some time, some place, for some reason. The real question, then, is if you could ever justify it when the stolen product is a video game.

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Comments

Alan Hayden

I've been waiting for this. As I said on twitter. We deserve better journalism. It's become trendy to a select few of these console war idiots to hate on Nintendo, due to premium prices and what are perceived as 'inferior' games. They're the only people who could possibly have accepted this article. And if that's your crowd, man, you are in trouble. Have a great day guys! ❤️

Alex Bolton

This is great, I love Rick Hoeg!

Anonymous

Obviously haven't listened all the way through, but thought I might share a niche perspective on this. As a competitive smash player, Nintendo has fucked over the community more times than one can count, including stopping third parties from funding their own competitive circuits, shutting down tournaments, and C&Ding mods while companies like Valve embrace them. This in tandem with other major anti-consumer moves from Nintendo is why I won't buy their hardware or games anymore. I'm speaking with my wallet. From this position, as someone who absolutely would not buy their games (if there wasn't emulation I simply wouldn't play them), is it wrong for me to pirate Metroid Dread? Stealing requires there to be something taken away, and by pirating the game when I otherwise would not play it at all, I'm not taking anything from Nintendo. Just food for thought. (Btw, I didn't pirate Metroid Dread and haven't actually played anything new from Nintendo since the Switch's launch [which I bought], just a thought exercise)

Joseph Marzola

Amazing turnaround time on this - the Rick episodes are always so fascinating!

Anonymous

Poor Kotaku. They do some actual game reporting and they still step in shit. Maybe one day they’ll get it.

Brian Anthony Seals

"The real question, then, is if you could ever justify [piracy] when the stolen product is a video game." AFAIC, the simple answer is "No"., but ppl will (try to) justify it with any possible excuse because A) They benefit from it and B) They're not going to be punished for it. Anyways... looking forward to listening to this one.

MJ SKA BOI

I don't believe stealing is wrong when 1) the person stealing is poor and is in need, and 2) when it is the every-man stealing from a corporation. But I also believe video games are art. I think it's wrong to steal art, unless the artist is okay with it (like when Streetlight Manifesto leaked their own record as a 'fuck you' to Victory Records.) Ultimately I really couldn't care less that a handful are pirating games (new or old,) but I don't pirate games personally. I like knowing I purchased my favorite games on my own.

Jakejames Lugo

Very interesting conversation, and super informative. Keep up the great work, really got a lot out of this one.

Michael Thew

I think all you have to look at when you say does pirating games hurts the business, look no further than what it did to the music industry.

Michael Thew
>>69651314

So me holding you up and stealing the money in you wallet because I think your an asshole, that becomes a righteous cause?

Anonymous

This is a topic I wanted them to discuss. About to hear the audio right now at work.

Michael Hobbs

These discussions with Hoeg are awesome. I hope we continue to get more! Great work, LSM!

LastStandMedia
>>69652415

Right. I would agree that, all things being equal, there's no true moralistic way to pirate a game. It's a luxury good.

LastStandMedia
>>69654871

Why should an 'every-man' get to steal from a corporation? Do you guys get to steal from me?

Jake Z

How long ago were you pirating sports?

Anonymous
>>69664572

Didn't Colin literally talk about trying to pay DirectTV $300 a month to avoid having to pirate sports?

Hose A Contra Razz

In a socialistic county does everyone get a ps5 and all its games?

Phil Walker

Absolutely killing the interviews recently, Colin. Keep it up!

Anonymous

Me and my friends back in middle school were rocking the free to plays like Team Fortress 2 and later on, whenever a new game came out, we used to pirate it just to test the performance and then buying the game if it runs well. Not saying this as an excuse but some people also take this as an argument.

Nathan Henderson
>>69672495

Used to do this all the time before building my computer back when I was in school - after buying AvP in 2010 and it running like garbage on my laptop I was always concerned nothing would run

Reuben Barrett

Always love these episodes with Hoeg. One point I'd bring up with regards to lost money with piracy is just look at the music industry. Before piracy you could actually make a solid living off record sales, now you've gotta tour non stop, sell merch and industry insiders are saying the money is essentially drying up hence why Spotify is moving into podcasts etc and artists are selling off their entire back catalogs. Of course music is more accessible price wise before piracy, but I'd definitely say piracy in any form besides super old game emulation hurts publishers.

Tonys_Always_Write

Wonderful conversation. It really helped me get through my slower-than-molasses day of work! Just some friendly feedback, you really piqued my interest about the Kotaku article. I don't really do social media anymore and was out of the loop so would have loved more context. I respect where the conversation went though! Thank you for the quality content! 😁 P.S. have bought both your games as soon as they were available just to throw you my support!

Matt H

I only pirate software that I genuinely cannot give the rights holders money for and that is prohibitively expensive on the second-hand market. For example, God Hand costs around 80 bucks on eBay; however, it's only 10 dollars for PS3 as a PS2 classic, so I'm able to give Capcom money! Hooray! I think Sony could really help itself and its partners capture lost sales due to games being out of print if they would just get off their asses and build solid emulators for PS1, PS2, and PS3 that would run on PS5. Remember PS1 and PS2 Classics? What if we had PS3 Classics? If Sony implemented robust backwards compatibility and brought back the Classics service, it would allow IP holders to republish games and very easily extract revenue from latent properties. Take God Hand, for example. It probably doesn't warrant the development resources for Capcom to port it to PS5. However, the Classics service would allow Capcom to just upload the original ISO to the PSN and boom! Lost revenue restored!

Anonymous

This is a long one, but I’ll try to be brief. Earlier today, I spoke with a friend in regards to our enjoyment with Metroid Dread. I told him how I never got around to playing the 3DS Metroid game that came before, and on the spot, he offered me the ROM for it. I didn’t respond back to him on the matter. It’s been back and forth in my head, checking the prices for it online, throughout the day. I have access to a 3DS and could just buy it, but free is quite tantalizing. I listened to the episode, and the points you both make are clear as day. I want to support the creators I care about for the content I care about. That being said, it looks like I should have “Samus Returns” in my mailbox in the coming days. Thanks for what you do, and all of the content. Hoping this gets to you, Colin.

Peter Montaño

Hoeg is such a fantastic addition to the LSM family, even if it’s more of a favorite ‘in-law’ (hehe) than immediate family type of relationship.

Anonymous

Great podcast. I'd been hearing the argument that so long as you own a copy you can then transfer it to any other format for a long time so it was good to get some expansion and clarification on what the grey area there is

MJ SKA BOI

@LSM, of course nobody 'gets to' steal from you. LSM is built by patreon backers anyway, isn't it? That's very democratic and non exploitative. You're a far cry from, for example, Amazon. Amazon exists as a robbery of its own laborers, as do all major corporations, especially when the worker in question may be a child, manufacturing parts for expensive machines who's being owned is becoming increasingly vital to participating in the modern world. Nobody has ever earned a billion dollars, Colin. You know this.

An incredible argument I’ve commonly heard (incredible just in the sense I can’t believe it’s even considered a good argument) is that because a game in its digital form is infinitely reproducible taking it without paying for it isn’t stealing because you aren’t physically taking anything from the creator and they can just keep reproducing it. Like intellectual property isn’t a thing. It blows my mind people can’t see what the end result would be if everyone suddenly agreed with this sentiment.

Dave Ramos

Great episode! And I have to admit, I'm one of those people who at one point believed if I owned the game, it was okay to emulate elsewhere. Ironically I also just finished playing Metroid Fusion on my laptop using my PS5 controller. I'd love for the game to be ported to Switch but it hasn't yet if ever. That also said, confession time: I love reading Power Rangers comics, however I'm guilty of downloading nearly every issue at launch. But I justify it to myself by the fact that once they release the Hardcover Collections (they do so each year), I always buy them. Can't say I'm doing the right thing but that's how I justify it to myself.

LastStandMedia
>>69689124

Yeah, that's where my mind is. I don't care if you 'pirate' a game from an old piece of hardware that isn't sold anymore. Who is losing, in that case? It does get to the heart of just because something isn't for sale doesn't mean you have the right to buy it... but since we're measuring injury, I think it's fine.

LastStandMedia
>>69707517

People steal our podcasts and videos all the time, shared by people on this Patreon who do it even though we ask them not to. Short-sighted answer. =)

LastStandMedia
>>69718505

Yeah, but that's just an archaic point of view from an era where we couldn't fit a library on an SD card.

Nathan Favreau

I don’t believe there is ever a valid excuse for stealing. If you emulate your stealing. That makes you a thief. If your okay with being that than emulate all day. I emulated as a teenager. I had reasons why I did it but it doesn’t make me any less a thief than I was. Now I am not and understand it’s wrong. I will buy the same game on every system over and over again if I like it enough. I believe I’ve paid back all the games I’ve emulated in the past and than some.

Brandon Soto

Nintendo definitely won’t go after the people that made the Switch emulator or anyone playing Switch games for free, but will go after anyone else that uploads their music or makes fan-made games. Damn hypocrites.

LastStandMedia
>>69753886

That's the thing: I think once you're fully-formed and understand things as an adult, there's little excuse outside of edge cases. But I'm fine with people doing what they want, I'm not their dad.

James Good

huge shoutout to Rick for mentioning No One Lives Forever. one of the greatest games of all time forever trapped between three different companies

Aaron Barnes

I really enjoyed this chat, thanks C+R I've grown up and participated in various ways with video game/music/movies piracy. In my teen years in the 90's I had a modded PS1 which I also hired games from blockbuster and ripped them, for personal use (I never gave these to friends or sold them, no excuse or justification it's just what I did with them). With music and movies I downloaded a lot until I received a cease and desist notification from my ISP and stopped downloading then and there. At this point I got my first job, car, girlfriend and had things to lose whereas before my immature teenage thinking was along the lines of I had nothing to lose and who was I hurting as I wasn't going to buy those things anyway so I wasn't robbing them from sales. Now I'm a grown ass man, have a job and child on the way and have a completely different outlook on all of this and pay for everything I use, games/music/movies and pay to support people I want to succeed like SS+ & Habroxia 2 etc. ;) Keep up these thought challenging and interesting chats

Anonymous

Intellectual property is actually a fallacy. Ideas aren't scarce, therefore aren't property. With that said, pirating a game you could be buying makes you an asshole. But still, the discussion needs to start at the core that you aren't stealing property when you pirate.

Anonymous
>>69886697

Try reading "Against Intellectual Property" by N. Stephan Kinsella. A lot of libertarian authors have pretty compelling arguments against IP. I'm not saying it's good for creators or the industry. I'm stating that piracy doesn't violate the libertarian NAP. I buy games because I want the industry to thrive, but that's me.

Anonymous
>>69886697

Hans Hermann Hoppe has the best definition of property, imo. Try reading him as well.

jordan allen burton

Speaking of Metroid: Dread specifically, that game is so good, I have dug out my 3DS just to play that other Metroid by Mercury Steam. I really hope they get to make another one.

Michael

This is such an interesting conversation I have. I love it! My friends and I have argued about it for years. I personally have no problem playing an emulated game on SNES that a physical copy costs $200+... But new games or cheap games is a dick move.

Anonymous

Forgive me if I’m asking a dumb question but would Nintendo have any legal standing against Kotaku since they were quite clearly encouraging people to pirate the game? Or is it a case of even if they could it wouldn’t be worth their time and effort to go after Kotaku legally?

LastStandMedia
>>69933900

I'd consider physical pricing of out-of-print games to be just another thing that justifies piracy. If you're expected to spend $200 on a physical version of a game on dead hardware or emulate it, I'm certainly not going to stop you from emulating it. The game was already purchased, anyway. It's complex. =)

LastStandMedia
>>69934573

I doubt it. Kotaku was just pointing to things. They can do that. Doesn't mean we can't criticize it.

Carlos Moreno

Hoeg is the man! I too have been loving Metroid Dread! Loved the shout out at the end

Dennis Parker

These are some of my favorite episodes

Anonymous
>>69886697

"It is unlikely that people would undertake the laborious task of writing such publications if everyone were free to reproduce them. This is still more manifest in the field of technological invention and discovery." Ludwig von Mises - Human Action (Rick)

Anonymous
>>69886697

I totally agree with that. As impractical as it might be, we can't simply say it is property. Logically it is not. It's not an easy idea to wrap our heads around. I get your point, and I don't pirate games anymore. Still, I don't think it's theft. P. S.: So happy to see you quoting the master.

Bos10George

Trophy hunting is my anti-piracy. I play things I love to get the trophies and you can't earn them if you are using knockoff software. Nintendo has made the perfect storm to pirate their software. If you really want to play Zelda on DS, why not just pirate it? The price never lowers and it is very limited along with the hardware.