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Angel || 4x21 || Discussion (Patreon)

Published:
2023-03-27 17:25:00
Edited:
2023-03-29 19:45:01
Imported:
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Content

4x21: "Peace Out"

Next: Angel 4x22 on Thurs 3/30

edit: gonna post on Fri!


Woahhhhh... I can not believe that just happened... what the hell is gonna happen in the finale??? AND MISS MA'AM LILAH??? EXCUSE ME???

I have sooo many questions.... like HUH???

EEEEEEE, I am so excited tho!!! AHHHHH


hope yall enjoyyyy! :D

Files

Comments

Isaiah Bryant

As maligned as S4 is, there’s something to be said about it’s presentation and deconstruction of the “champion averting the apocalypse” and the way Jasmine’s arc of possessing Cordelia and manipulating events from within the champions domain subverts a traditional hero fight narrative. Even the result of Jasmine, world peace at the cost of being cattle, presents a way of looking at Big Bads that’s different from any we’ve had on either show. Joss is a POS for a number of reasons at this point, not the least of which demonizing Charisma’s pregnancy and ousting David Greenwalt from the Exec Producer seat, but the narrative constructed has moments of genuine lot good storytelling (use of Angelus, Faith’s return) and watching with you Alley has been a nice eye opener revisit. Can’t wait for you see S5 :)

Mary Kate

NGL I am not a big fan of the Jasmine arc, but I do love the way it ends, with Connor "choosing to believe the lie." But I am glad we're through it, I LOVE this finale and then back to SOME AMAZING BUFFY before we're onto SEASON FIVE ahhhhh can't wait!!!

Phoenix Dawn

Love this episode and definitely one of my fave Connor moments. That poor kid! 😭

Austin Silv

Girl why are you pushing everything back everytime… annoying

SweetSummit
>>105021647

She's always been very clear that we get 7 reactions a month. She's also often said that if you're not happy with what episodes/shows we're going to get to unsubscribe and that she has no issue with you doing that. She is a very humble person, those who have spoken to her know that. Calling her annoying when she has a newborn in her house is a bit insensitive.

Anonymous

Fun fact: I got married at that church 😊

lurker1316

Connor's monologue is definitely one of his strongest moments. I don't think I really let it sink in on my prior viewings and I'd honestly forgotten about it until I rewatched a few months ago, but it really does showcase his character in a way that gives meaningful context to a lot of what he's done up to this point.

Anastasia

I love this episode so much, and the season 4 finale is one of my favorite episodes out of the entire show.

Nebraska

Angel didn't kiss Jasmine. Jasmine forced a kiss on Angel after rag dolling him.

Dusty

Holtz instilled in him the idea that he would always have to fight and that he was the only one that would ever love him. It makes so much sense for Connor to need to still believe in Jasmine.

Stargazer1682

It's interesting how similar Jasmine's true face is to Vocah from season 1. It's probably a coincidence, and they just repurposed the special effect without thinking about it, but there's implication the real root of Jasmine using Cordelia started back in season 1 when Vocah opened her mind. It's plausible he infected her with whatever was needed to get the ball rolling; or because she had been touched by one of Jasmine's kind, she was somehow susceptible.

Denise Whitfield

OK guys we are getting super super super close to season five. Can someone please warn her to NOT watch the opening credits to the first episode due to the major spoiler? Maybe shut her eyes? Please please please. Thank you. 😊

Sam

Something I really appreciate about this episode is that we find out Jasmine’s secret master plan: She really does want to save the world and create a paradise of eternal bliss. She wasn’t lying about who she was or what she wanted. She really was one of the Powers That Be, and she really was here to create Heaven on Earth. This also ties into what I think is one of the cooler bits about season 4. This isn’t just *an* apocalypse. It’s *The* Apocalypse. As in, this is the Buffyverse version of the actual, no-shit Biblical, Book of Revelations Apocalypse. It starts with signs and portents, followed by a period of tribulations where the world is rocked by cosmic-scale disasters - rain of fire, eternal darkness… all overseen by the Beast, who is given dominion to cruelly punish the wicked (Wolfram and Hart). Then, once the period of tribulation is over, God returns to Earth to create paradise for all time. A God, it should be noted, who comes into the world via a miraculous, impossible birth, and has a name that starts with J. My two favorite nods to this in the show: The church in this episode, with the sign that, depending how you read it, either says “God is nowhere” or “God is now here”. And the really cheeky one, a few episodes ago, where Jasmine says she likes movies, and Lorne replies “That makes sense, since this is the greatest story ever told.” (The Greatest Story Ever told is a 1965 Oscar-winning Hollywood epic about the life story of Jesus.) One way of reading season 4 - and to be totally honest, the one I personally am convinced is what the writers intended - is that this is our heroes dealing with the Second Coming, and ending it by choosing to kill the Messiah.

Calvin Allen

I'm sad jasmine died. I loved the character and Angel's conversation with her gave me hope of having her on as a main

TheyCallMeJeff

Give credit to David Fury, this is the best character development Connor has ever gotten but it is too little, too late. If they would have done it that well sooner, I would probably have empathy for him.

Tjbosslyfe

Good bye world piece thank you jasmine . But seriously. Do you remember the scene where the Boss from wolfram and hart was in the elevator after he was already dead . Wolfram and hart there souls belong to company even in death .

Shaun Houghton

Yes, it's true The First has come to The Hyperion, we can all rejoice. Amazed that you didn't click to this.

DB

I'm usually quite apprehensive about reactors hitting S4 of Angel ngl There's a lot of things to hate especially when you see behind the scene issues so heavily influencing the end product. But there's also a lot of really interesting concepts introduced and while creation of Jasmine is just one big nope, her character overall is imposing some fairly interesting philosophical questions. I was also in minority who didn't hate Connor. I think he's probably the most tragic character so far, never given a fair chance by people around him (and by viewers). It's a non-stop misery with that kid and I do think he is a kid. I don't know if we collectively just assumed he was 18 to make the situation minimally less icky or if it was stated somewhere? He just read younger to me at the end of S3 which made a lot of S4 additionally horrendous. But I think it's fascinating to see someone who not only was abused, manipulated, groomed and gaslighted his whole life but also made all the bad choices. I actually forgot about that church monologue. It's such a fantastic scene. I remember VK saying back then how rough it was to play someone as static as Connor. But you can see with that church scene alone how interesting that character could be if given a chance by the writers instead of becoming a casualty in Whedon's fcked up revenge. (OT - I know world peace through complete mind control is not exactly a new concept here but I admit when Stephenie Meyer followed her Bangel fanfiction by The Host I legit thought she was inspired by Jasmine storyline lol)

Sun

Cordy’s blood didn’t work on Conner. He was never enchanted in the first place. Like he says it never actually took away his pain and it didn’t work for him like it did for everyone else. he was just going along with it from the beginning.

bewildered
>>105068808

They do say he's 18 in the episode where he and "Cordy" have sex, because that makes it okey-dokey.

Jaren

I wonder why some of Jasmine’s powers worked on Connor but she was still all bug juice in the face. I’m so glad someone else isn’t just annoyed with him. Because his story is traumatizing to say the least. A baby raised in hell by an abusive maniac then every relation he forms is toxic aside from the crew. The crew that contemplating killing him before he was even born. Hell, as sensitive as many of us can be just managing minor mental illnesses I would think people would be sympathetic.

Stargazer1682
>>105204134

Presumably he is inherently linked to her - or, was. Like they speculate in the episode, just as Jasmine shares a blood link with Cordelia, she's also already connected mystically with Connor. Connor was her first follower, even before she took this form. Jas-delia manipulated him left right and center, got him to murder for her and he was fully committed. The more followers she eventually got, the stronger she became. So she has this mystical bond, combined with his unwavering belief in her, right from the get go; she has her hooks in him in more ways than one.

Jaren
>>105204134

No, I mean why can he sense her? Why can she speak through him? Why did he bow to her as soon as she was born? Those kinds of things would suggest that he was under the spell but he says he wasn’t.

s

I'm glad you don't just hate Connor like most people do. I love the sympathy you show for him, because yeah, that is the point of his whole character. He's not just a prick to be a prick, he's fucked up. The kid has been used, abused, and lied to his whole life and a lot of people push that aside to just hate on him. I love Connor's character for what he represents and I love this entire season too. This is definitely a hot take, but it's my favorite season of the entire Buffyverse. Such a non-stop, crazy ride of a season.

Dusty

so what exactly are the upload dates now

Kimmee

I never took the demon being there as huge coincidence. I think the demons of his world sensed Jasmine's presence in this world and he was either sent or he came on his own to look for her. I think he took up residence there on purpose to be close her. He probably can't just run around on the surface so he's doing magic to get her attention. I mean there is a coincidence in that LA probably has a lot of sewers so it's kind of funny that they've happened to run into him. It doesn't seem like they've gotten very far though, so they are probably still close to Jasmine's location and since the demon pretty clearly came there looking for Jasmine it's not outside the realm of possibilities that they might run into him.

Dave Miller

Unrelated to the conversation: Lorne made a small side comment there near the end, referencing Night of the Comet. If anyone hasn't seen Night of the Comet, go watch it. It's an absolute camp classic, and for 1984, subverts a lot of the standard tropes for that era by being chock full of female empowerment. It's free on all the free content platforms! Go! Watch!

N.orgen
>>105332674

I've been updating the site all day to find it - didn't see the edit XD

MrAguia Aguia

Connor was never under the spell. I think the reason he started questioning was because he was jealous that he wasnt under the spell too. He wanted to belong to the group but cant because hes immune to the spell. He sees everyones happiness and it makes him even more lonely because he cant feel it too.

MrAguia Aguia

Jasmin didnt choose her name. Remember she has some rules she has to follow and one of them is that you cant choose your own name.

MrAguia Aguia

Lila said Angel ended "world piece" not Connor. and yes killing jasmine ended world piece. Like when Ultron wanted to bring world piece by killing everyone.

MrAguia Aguia

Angel didnt kiss Jasim she kissed him, like a kiss goodbye

Chris Hanley
>>105345190

I'm not sure that was entirely true, more so that her real name has power over her (that demon Wesley found also pointed out how easily humans give away their "power"). A lot of names were suggested to her, but she kept saying how much she like the smell of jasmine. Nobody christined that name upon her, she picked her favourite in the end.

kelly mc

Your timing of covering the credits with the paper.was impeccable.lol 👌