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Angel || 4x08 || Discussion (Patreon)

Published:
2022-12-21 20:45:00
Imported:
2023-03

Content

4x08: "Habeas Corpses"

Next: Buffy 7x11 on Wed 12/28

hope everyone has a good holiday this week :) see you guys next week!


Okay big baddie demon coming into Wolfram & Hart to go on a murderous rampageeeeee... I SEE YOUUUU!!! lmaoo, I absolutely lovedd all the scene in the building, it was sooo great. The lighting and everything worked so perfectly.

And poor Angel </3 bro is going through ittttt :( pour one out for him <3


anyways, hope yall enjoy! :D

Files

Comments

John Alexander

"Habeas Corpses" is a play on the legal term "habeas corpus" which is a little complicated but basically it means that if you are detained by the state you have the right to challenge the legality of that detention in court.

bewildered

The thing with Connor is really that he doesn't ever make it past "there are many reasons to sympathize with him" to actually, onscreen, making us LIKE him. I don't hate him, but there just...isn't anything to latch on to. They never put the work in to make him actively likeable, and when his primary character movements so far have been against our hero and now dragging down beloved character Cordy (she is absolutely wrong to have made certain decisions IMO, but likeability isn't about logic or blame. From a Doyleist point of view his character is damaging Cordelia, and that damages him in a viewer's eye.) His personality at this point is just his trauma writ large, and in a show that has as part of its core theme the fact that is is about grown-ups, a callow, naive, bitter teen is just not that interesting. Not when we have our foolish, bitter adults to care about.

Stacey

I know he is not "back in the gang" but I have loved getting to see Wesley back with the Angel team lately makes me realise how much I miss them all together but I do love the writers actually had Wesley face consequences and it wasn't just one episode and everyone forgave him for what happened with Connor it took time which is way more realistic

Stephen

definitely think the title is a pun, “habeus corpus” being a legal lawyery term, but change to corpses cause the lawyers all dead

Stargazer1682

Alley watches previous episode. Alley: Why is Lilah cosplaying as me...?

Stargazer1682

I think it's not immaterial to point out that "naive, 18 year old Connor" slept with with 21 year old Cordelia. Yeah, she's seen some stuff, including Connor as a baby, but we tend to take for granted that she's actually supposed to still be pretty young; younger than Fred, actually. Fred was going to college when she got sent to Pylea, the same year Cordelia, Buffy, et al were Sophomores. So *technically* Cordy and Connor are closer in age than Cordy and Fred. Although I would 100% ship a Cordy/Fred relationship, especially over Cordelia and Connor...

Stargazer1682

The role of Angel this episode will be played by Joss Whedon... 👀

Tjbosslyfe

Another good episode from this season . One I watched over and over . Was really creepy and gave me chills first time I saw it . Was like watching a horror movie . So many gems this season . One of my favorite for a reason. He didn't want to be around Cordelia . Because of the Connor situation. He was avoiding it at all cost.

Anonymous

Don’t watch angel at all but just poking my head in to say merry Christmas and happy Hanukkah to alley and everyone! Hope you have a great break!

Allan Cornett

Great reaction. This zombie episode is so much better than the Buffy zombie episode.

Allan Cornett
>>98090487

You should watch if you care at all about the characters Faith, Angel, Cordy, Wesley, Buffy etc. You are missing so much. Happy Winter Solstice.

Kongolor
>>98130197

Yeah they use the claustrophobic corridors and lighting really well.

Mary Kate

Yeah. Vincent Kartheiser was 23 when this episode aired, Charisma Carpenter was 32. He looks much younger than his age, where she looks around what her actual age was -- don't get me wrong, she's BEAUTIFUL, but she definitely looks in her thirties here, I think in part to the haircut -- if they really wanted to make her look 22, they should have given her back her longer hair. Added to that the creepiness of him being Angel's son + the fact that she was and is a mother figure for him, this whole thing is just so gross and I will never forgive Joss/the writers for doing this. That being said, there's a lot of great stuff in this ep and coming up this season. I think it would have been viewed SO much differently in the fandom if it weren't for the Cordelia/Connor of it all :(

Ashtara Levin
>>98066202

Yeah.. it's not really the canon age that bothers, it's the whole vibe and how it comes of.. Vincent looks 16 while Charisma, at this point, looks her age - in her 30s.. Fred is older, canonically, but having spent all that time in Pylea - looked up to Cordy like a big sister when she integrated back into society, not to mention the whole babysitter vibe and having established (like it or not) a somewhat romance with Angel, the father - culminating in it all feeling very very wrong, no matter what the age of the characters is supposed to be on paper.

Jaren

Connor is one of the saddest characters in my opinion. I feel so bad for him. A baby raised in hell by his kidnapper? He could be a lot more messed up based on the circumstances.

Stargazer1682
>>98066202

I mean, that IS my point. I don't necessarily agree that Vincent looks too young to be an adult, albeit and admittedly still a very young adult; the fact that by the point in time Charisma was in her 30s and looked more her ages changes the connotation of scenes and the character dynamics. If Cordelia actually looked 21, I would argue the context would read differently, at least in terms of character interaction. I don't think there would likely be this sense of a maternal bond that otherwise gets applied to Cordelia. I'm largely ambivalent about people saying she was like a mom to Connor as a baby; and would agree "babysitter" might be the word, but it's all about the visual cues and context. Even the suggestion of "Fred looking up to Cordelia as a big sister" is more predicated on the perception of Cordelia appearing to be older than Fred - and Charisma is, by a pretty good measure. But I wouldn't agree that, in-narrative Fred's experience in Pylea would necessarily lend to that dynamic. It's the same thing I tend to observe with Xander and Anya in "Hells Bells". While it's not impossible for a 20 year old to get married and it last, or a 30 year old to make bad relationship decisions, contextually Xander looked like someone who would be expected to make more rational and mature decisions in getting married. By that time Nicky was also around 30 and looked it. But picture season 1 Xander dressed in a tux and that story playing out; and even then you'd still have to shave off a few years. As a practical exercise, what if Cordelia was played by Alley? Forget **"THAT"** scenes - please, ignore THAT in this particular example. But she's around the same age Cordelia's *supposed* to be. Granted, Alley's experiences are different from what Cordelia has gone through by this point, and that's important to inform demeanor, but would Fred "look up" to Alley-delia? Or would they be more like contemporaries? And just on an interpersonal level - not the sex or flirting or anything, but just 18 year old Connor and 21-22(?)-ish Alley, having any of the more general conversations that Cordelia and Connor have had; would those scenes read the same? How much of the rest of Cordelia's story changes in juxtaposition with an actual younger adult versus an older adult?