Home
Artists
Search Recent Random
Posts
Search DMs Popular Hash Lookup Tags Random
Importer
Import FAQ
Register
Partychan Telegram ThePornDude
Home Artists Posts Import Register

Buffy the Vampire Slayer || 7x07 || Discussion (Patreon)

Published:
2022-11-30 19:15:01
Imported:
2023-03

Content

7x07: "Conversations with Dead People"

Next: Buffy 7x08 on Wed 12/7 -- will have upload schedule up soon, but it might not be till tomorrow, so just wanted to say: 7 uploads will be scheduled for December, which include 5 Buffy episodes and 2 Angel episodes. I am taking this weekend off bc I can tell I am about to get a cold </3 and taking off a Sat upload 12/24 for Christmas :)


OKAYYYYY Holy smokes this episode was so sooooo good. I can't get over how beautiful and perfect it was... I am seriously in love with it. Legit 5 different things going on all at the same time, and it seemed so perfectly paced and edited, it is a masterpiece <3 I loved it so much.

Hope you guys enjoy :)

Files

Comments

Ash Lee Can

I'm sure you've seen comments about how Xander was supposed to be in this episode with Jesse from the two-parter premiere. From my understanding, it would have touched on the very thing that bothers you about Xander in regards to Spike, which is something that a lot fans don't seem to get is that Jesse's death/vampirism is the main root for his hatred of vampires. He even declared his hatred of vampires right after Jesse's death. Spike, Angel, ect., it all mostly comes down to Jesse... With Angel, most fans just chalk it up to jealousy over Buffy. Sure, he was jealous, but it wasn't hatred until Angel was a known vampire. When he confronts Angel in the season 1 finale, "I don't like you. At the end of the day, I pretty much think you're a vampire. But Buffy's got this big ole yen for you. She thinks you're a real person. Now, I need you to prove her right". He was willing to put his feelings aside to let Angel prove he's not the monster he sees him as. Sure enough, in season 2, he's tolerant and even somewhat cordial with Angel. That was, until he actually became the monster he believed he was. Xander's argument against Angel was, "He's a vampire". People don't like to hear this, but Xander was right in that season 2 finale argument. If Angelus was ANY other soulless vampire, she would taken him out. But because Buffy loved him, she wanted to give him a second chance. Xander had a right to speak up because it wasn't just Buffy dealing with the attacks and psychological trauma via Angelus (he literally had tried to kill every single one of them except Oz), but because he was Buffy's boyfriend, she got final say? How is that fair? And again, she simply wanted to re-ensoul Angel because like Xander said, she wanted her boyfriend back, after he spent months murdering people throughout the town, including people she knew. At that point, he was a monster like every other vampire and should been treated accordingly. Buffy refused to do so... People say it's jealousy, but Xander only acted they way he did towards the vampires Buffy was involved with (in Angel &amp; Spike). Not Scott Hope (he actually encouraged that). He actually liked Riley. He even brought a date for her to her birthday party. He encouraged Buffy to be stop trying to change herself to get guys to like her. It honestly just seems shallow when fans reduce Xander's when his character is way deeper than that. The biggest mistake the writer's did, imo, was constantly playing Xander's trauma, pain, and issues for laughs all the time. Can you imagine the show playing most of Buffy &amp; Willow's trauma for laughs? It's a disservice to the character and I think it's partly why a lot of fans often are dismissive of his problems and don't bother trying to see or understand his perspective... I'm not saying that this is you, Alley, but what I've noticed in general throughout the fandom...

CrookedCat

Also, I never realized you could have a queer reading of Spike and Holden in this. If they met in a similar way that Spike did the girl in this episode? The show seem to have hinted a queerness with vampires which is a common trope but a good one.

matt

What does a Psych student think about the one person Buffy is able to open up to in 7 seasons being someone she knows she's going to kill after the the conversation is over?

Mitch M

I love watching people react to this episode. It's just so eerie and emotionally manipulative, even before you take OBS malfunctions into account :D

Keenan White
>>96699710

And may I throw this little side note in? There are so many fans that hated Xander for not delivering Willow’s message about her trying to redo the spell to re-insoul Angel, but I always saw it as him actually saving Buffy’s life by doing that, I mean think about it…if Buffy knew what Willow was trying to do, then she would have just been holding back, and that could have gotten her killed…so I never had a problem with him lying to her, and changing Willow’s message to KICK HIS ASS…because that’s exactly what she did, and the world was saved again because of it.

Marie Green
>>96699710

A conversation between Xander and Spike would have been a good replacement for Xander and Jesse. They actually have an ongoing relationship and knowledge of each other with lots of unresolved issues. It would have been interesting to see an ensouled Spike have empathy for Xander's trauma, even if he hid it under a layer of antagonism. And they still could have had Spike go out afterward so we could get that shocking final scene with him.

Mitch M
>>96699710

I agree with everything in this comment except the idea that Xander was right in S2 about Angel. I agree that Xander is a traumatized boy, and that his choices aren't defined by jealousy so much as pain, but the reality is that, like with Jesse, as Giles says, when you look at a vampire you're looking at the thing that killed someone. Whether or not it's fair that Buffy is willing to re-ensoul Angel when she isn't willing to re-ensoul every other vampire is immaterial as to whether Liam was murdered by a demon or deserved to be held accountable for that demon's choices. I think most of us can agree that a teenage boy's stupid moment in an alley with a pretty girl shouldn't condemn him to ugly soullessness for eternity, let alone moral responsibility for the things that that soulless demon did in their absence (whether that's Angel or Spike). I think the better argument would be that every vampire deserves to be re-ensouled rather than killed, although that obviously creates a problem for the show. Xander is consistent in the idea that vampire=bad while human=good, it's true, but the show (and Buffy) clearly prefers to draw the line between capable of choice (ensouled) and incapable of choice (lacking a soul). Whether or not it's fair, the show seems to think that responsibility lies with choice rather than nature.

Marie Green

I go back and forth on this episode during rewatches. Sometimes it feels like a deep exploration of character beautifully executed. Other times it feels like a lot of stylish noise amounting to nothing. Besides the final scenes about Spike and the death of Jonathan, we didn't learn anything new. Willow is sad and guilt-ridden? Buffy has issues with the men in her life? You don't say! But it did work well for me this time. There's no denying that it's well executed. Some episodes have a certain confidence in the writing and directing that you can feel from the very first scene. I also really like the Holden character. He only has a few minutes of screen time to make an impression and he really does. He could have come across as too pompous with the lines he's given, but he's surprisingly likable. I wish there'd been a little more of a lead-up to Buffy opening up to him, like Spike or a Scooby trying to get her to open up and failing. But I think the real-time nature of the format prevented that (I haven't seen it mentioned in the comments, but the events could theoretically take place over the one-hour airtime of the episode, which is reinforced by the timestamp at the beginning). Regardless, your reaction was great. I absolutely loved this episode on first watch, and watching it through fresh eyes reminded me of what I love about it. I'm glad you didn't lose your data when your computer shut off. Stick some tape over that switch. :D

Anthony

Fun fact- they wanted Tara for this episode but the actor wasn’t available. It would have been better with Tara. But I do have to wonder about the dawn visit. It was different than the other visits to willow and Andrew… this one was violent and tore down the house. Something to think about…

Austin Silv

This is probably my favorite episode of the season and Top 3 over all. It’s executed so well, although it would have been better if they had actually got Tara back for willow and Jesse back for xander

JC
>>96753021

In an interview with Amber Benson, she said she turned it down because she felt it would have been too upsetting for fans of Willow and Tara to see her saying those things to Willow.

Anthony
>>96753021

Wow- interesting. My response was from the DVD commentary… they just said she wasn’t able to make it. Interesting to know it wasn’t just a schedule issue but amber making a decision. Although it’s kind of like, amber, you’re an actor not a writer, trust the process… but then again, SMG also stood up against Buffy’s dark times in S6.

Anthony
>>96759448

I am shocked about the Jesse thing. Didn’t know that was a possibility to happen

Anonymous
>>96753021

I always saw the Dawn parts as the spirit (or whatever) trying to draw her out of the house to get her killed. She went hardcore and wouldn't leave so it tried to drive a wedge. If everything they faced in the episode has worked Willow and Dawn would be dead leaving Buffy without most of her support system.

zerofk

Andrew to Jonathan: "Not one of them cares about you." Jonathan: "Well I still care about them." The way he says it, I fully believe him. He's not saying it to be contrary, as many people would. He really does care. He has made some bad choices in his too short life, but ultimately he's one of the best souls on the show.

Texas
>>96753021

Amber explained it in a panel appearance a few years ago. There was a scheduling conflict, but also she didn't want to do it. She chose to go to England for her BBC series and make the excuse of the conflict. It seems like she used it to avoid the confrontation involved in refusing for other reasons.

Kongolor

It's interesting so many people think the Jesse thing would have been a good idea if they'd done it. I think if they had, the overwhelming consensus/reaction from people watching would have been "who?" cause he was in two episodes back in Season 1, nearly 7 years in real time and they barely mentioned him in the rest of Season 1, let alone any time after that. For it to have any weight in this ep, they'd have to have done a lot of work, very quickly to get across Jesse and Xanders relationship or get across Jesses character. I guess you could have him be kinda talking about his wishes and future hopes and interrogating Xander on how he's spent the years since Jesse died or something? Have it be a sort of way for Xander to kinda vent about his incredibly wild life or talk through his regrets. Either way this episode already has a lot going on so adding that storyline would probably require cutting one of the other ones or removing some time from all of them equally and I don't think the resulting episode could possibly be better than this one. Maybe the best way to still have Xander in the episode and do the Jesse thing but not compromise the episode (imo) would be to have it be a quick single scene near the end (not at the end cause the finale for this ep is incredible) or a post credits scene if they could possibly do those on the network back in the day. Just have Jesse and Xander clearly in the middle of a long conversation and have Jesse say "so, like, the beer made them turn into cavepeople??" like Xander has just been slowly filling him in on every single thing. Just pick the most weird episode for him to be going "wait what?" about.

Ron Fehr
>>96753021

I admire Amber Benson for not reprising her role, sad as it was not to see Tara again. But I definitely wouldn't want my last memory of her to be a bad one.

Loves Bitca
>>96840667

Not to mention that all the conversations with dead people the others had, all had a point to what's coming up and a tie in, and I really can't think of anything they could have done with Xander and Jessie.

Kongolor
>>96840667

Well they could just gin up any reason really, that's the writers job. It's ambiguous as of this episode whether Joyce is actually Joyce or an entity pretending to be Joyce for example. So you could have Jesse trying to manipulate Xander to some end or have him try and claim that he's not felt the need to manifest until now because it's never been serious enough or whatever and have it be unclear as to whether it's actually Jesse or not. As you say, just tough cause Jesse would be starting from 0% to the audience basically. I think they made the right choice though as you said and I did in my original comment, the characters they revisited were much more important characters to the show (people dislike that Tara didn't actually show up but I respect the actress declining because she felt it would be too manipulative of the audience and this worked quite well) and then Buffy/Spikes storyline is moving a plot forward and is just done really, really well imo.

Loves Bitca
>>96840667

"they can gin up any reason, that's the writers job" would be a poor cop out for anyone saying they should do something. "I think Buffy should randomly start speaking German there" How would that fit in or make sense? "I don't know, that's the writer's job to figure out".

Kongolor
>>96840667

I don't really think it's a cop out to say that if they'd decided to include Jesse then they obviously would have created a reason for him to have appeared? That's how making a tv show works. They didn't choose to include him so they didn't bother to come up with a reason but they definitely could have like some of the things I posted. Your example is something that doesn't make sense in the context of the episode but could make sense in a dreamlike episode like the one where Giles starting talking French or a spell gone wrong episode. The idea that they'd come up with a reason for Jesse to actually visit Xander OR an entity to visit in the guise of Jesse and keep it ambiguous as to which one is the case would and could be a thing they could do though.

Jamie Morgan

Can't believe you still haven't learned Andrew's name. Obviously it's "Tucker's brother".

Austin Silv
>>96759448

Yeah I think the actor wasn’t available at the time or something but it was discussed

Britt

Alley was 'bout to jump thru the screen and beat that bitch, like she was season 5 Dawn.

Claire Eyles

Late to the conversation, but I have to admit that season 7 is my least favourite season of any Buffy season, like I seriously rank season 1 above season 7 and the only time I ever rewatch it is through watching reactors. Having said that, this episode is one of my absolute favourites, like top 8 easily, out of all the Buffy seasons. It is just so well done.