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Buffy the Vampire Slayer || 6x19 || Discussion (Patreon)

Published:
2022-09-10 19:20:00
Imported:
2023-03

Content

6x19: "Seeing Red"

Next: Buffy 6x20 on Wed 9/14


SAY SIKE RIGHT FUCKING NEOWWWW!!! ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!.. A STRAY BULLET????? BE FUCKIN' FORREAL RIGHT NOW 😭😭😭 there is no wayyyyyy

GOODNESS, this entire episode was just a little spin wheel of "what could we do today to ruin these character's lives? :D" like GIVE THEM A BREAK!! 

I pretty much skipped the whole denial part on the ending and went straight to anger in this one, so apologies if I may have skipped over anything in this episode. I, personally, was also seeing red <3

And dont even get me started on the bathroom scene.. respectfully, I am revolted and disgusted <3 thanks 🤪

**(which I am sure most people remember what happens this episode, but if not, a trigger warning for that scene for SA. it starts around 27:28 in my video and ends at 30:32, the face I have at that end time mark is pretty much my face for the entire scene if it is too much to watch and you would like to skip it)


okay okay, so I am sure this is one many have been... I don't know if "looking forward to" is the right way to phrase it, but it is definitely a big one, I am sure setting up the rest of the season. So I guess... have fun?? idek what to say 😭

Files

Comments

Leonard Ledung

Alley 3 times at the start of episode "i'm gonna cry" and me going "yes, you will... and i'm sorry"

Esther Boogie
>>101752634

Yeah, it's rough. I'm currently re-watching for the first time in over a decade, with a friend who's never seen the show. We just started season 6, and I'm getting more and more anxious as this one approaches.

StephanieB
>>91466047

I know I'm so late to the game in my comment but I just have to say, SpikesEcho, that this is so well said and it is not an opinion I often see. I think because so much of the series is so well thought-out and intricately planned, fans assume there is some clear rationale to the development of Spike's character. However as much as it frustrates me to admit, I am in agreement with you, the writers dropped the ball on Spike. Or more specifically, Joss (due to his absence and distractions working on Angel and Firefly) allowed his writers to lose sight of his whole "Spike is EVIL" viewpoint and showrunner Marti "Queen of All Things Depression" Noxon let things get out of hand in the writer's room. In their efforts to keep Spike on the show and keep him interesting, the writers confused themselves with the whole chip story and then the falling in love with Buffy story... they made him an anomaly - too human but also soulless. And to confuse things further they brought in Warren, who has a soul but is evil. Certainly in this world as well as in Buffy's there are ensouled people who commit rape. The fact that Spike is not in vamp face during that scene makes things even more muddled. Was it the demon inside that was attacking Buffy or the "human" side of Spike, who just desperately wanted Buffy back? An interesting mess indeed.

Sheriff Uchiha

I think Spike was trying to recreate their first time from Smashed but didn't know Buffy was too weak to fight back from the vamp at the graveyard. Not excusing it, but I think that was what was going on in his mind. I think the underlying problem in their relationship was associating sex with violence. So Spike couldn't see the difference between the two. And thought being violent would get Buffy "in the mood." Plus, being soulless, he has never taken "no" for an answer. I do think it is out of character, but we all "get out of character" sometimes and do things we regret. Again, not defending him, but from a character writing stance, I think it makes sense. He was angry, sad, soulless and able to assault Buffy because his chip misidentified her as non-human. I bet he did the same to Drucilla; only she was into it.

Loves Bitca

Try this one more time. The guy who plays Warren was actually dating Amber Benson at the time. They told him he was going to have to kill his girlfriend today. Joss had wanted to kill someone from the main credits since the show started. He finally did it. Though they had actually offered Amber the opportunity to be in the main cast/in the opening credits previously. Though she was in so many episodes, she didn't want to be tied into the obligation, that could possibly prevent her from taking other roles. So it is kind of nice to know that it was her choice and not that her contributions and talent were overlooked.

Greg Davis (YT-nobody you need to know)
>>91453318

It was based off an experience one of the writers had. She had thrown herself at her ex bf thinking that if they had sex one more time that he'd take her back and he had to literally forced her off of him. So yeah, Spike was thinking something similar. In his head he had it twisted that it was something that she really wanted and if they had sex again that she'd realize it. It wasn't until she violently kicked him off of her that he realized the magnitude of what he did. I really don't think it had everything to do with him not having a soul. Sure it had some part but it was more the echoes of his human side. He had said in pervious season that vampires are capable of love. I mean their souls go but they still have an active brain which is capable of processing emotion. They just don't have much in the way of ethics. When Spike had his chip put in and he couldn't interact with the world he latched onto the closest person he had a connection with. Which as twisted as their prior relationship was, that person was Buffy. Vampires can feel emotion but it's more of an echo of it. It's kinda like they mimic what their brain remembers they felt. It's emotion, but hollow.

CrookedCat

Ok, I’m gonna talk about Spike and Anya a bit since everything else is thoroughly discussed. What the show has told us about vampires doesn’t always seem to correlate with Spike. It seems Spike does have some sort of sense of morale. I know some people just dismiss his good deeds as only self servant towards Buffy, which I would argue is not the case because of what he did after her death. Sure he made a promise TO Buffy, but since he was never going to bear the fruit of that promise, why would he bother? What would he get out of it? But no, he stayed with the Scoobies to protect Dawn and also Sunnydale. The show also seems to tell us he liked Joyce, because of the no-card thing for the funeral. And we know Spike can like people, sometimes in ways that at least can seem selfless. But he still has no soul. Note I said “good deeds” and not “good person” because he isn’t. He CAN’T be. He’s probably done more good deeds than any vampire, and that makes him different but not necessarily good, he can still joke about eating people and the mayhem he has caused the world. Something that is without a doubt terrifying. But then we have Anya. Who ALSO jokes about these things but now it's cutesy, kinda like a quirk. She was also a demon for like 800 years longer than Spike and have probably by default terrorized more people than him. The issue of her soul is also interesting. They haven’t mentioned it (I think?) just that she is mortal. And she seems to act in some ways the same as she did when she was a demon. When she became mortal she was confused by these feelings she hadn’t seemed to be feeling for a thousand years. And after that she’s done more or less good deeds since. Until, well recently… She became a demon AGAIN, by her own accord. AND she tried to hurt Xander. Willingly. At least at first. Again, it was mostly played for laughs, but do you think having his guts turning into knots or whatever it was would have been nice? Sounds pretty fatal to me. Granted, the Scoobies don't know Anya is a demon, but what does this do to her morale? Doesn’t she have feelings anymore? Like she implied when she started to become a regular character. She seem to act like she did before, and as usual with no real moral repercussion about her torturing and murdering people for a century. But then we have Xander, taking the moral high ground with Buffy, when they are different sides of the same coin. I don’t mind their argument and their reasoning in their heads, I feel that was written quite realistically which I like, I want things to get messy. But we as an audience can also look at this from a more sober perspective. Sure, Xander doesn’t trust Spike because for at least like 2 seasons he has sorta tried to kill them. That emotional toll and his disregard for human life is something that is not easily forgotten. I’m not sure they even know Anya tried to destroy them in “The wish”, so they don’t have that same fear of her. But they do KNOW of her history? She’s not really shy about it? Just like they know Spike’s. So this is where it gets so twisted. They can make excuses for her and expect us to still like her, but cannot make the same for her counterpart. I am NOT saying that fucking raping Buffy was excusable, but it is worse than murder and mayhem for a century? Maybe, since they know Buffy and things you directly see the consequences of, often hit us harder than the general knowledge of something else. Xander WAS right in not trusting Spike, since he IS soulless but their blind spot against Anya is sometimes infuriating, lol. Sure, they don’t know she is a demon, but WE do and she also unwillingly became mortal in the first place and then willingly became a demon again. I don’t know, I think this fandom is just so quick to either despite or love Spike but most people still like Anya. I like Anya as well! Just like I do Spike. But I think this issue isn’t always handled the best within the text. It just makes Xander look like a dumbass when he takes up Spike’s history when he was just going to marry a person who did the same thing. Buffy feels too graceful or insightful to even bring that up though, Since she also likes Anya AND Spike and knows how complicated this is.

SpikesEcho
>>91466047

The writers wrote themselves into a corner.....several corners....with Spike, and they themselves weren't clear in their opinions of him and what he is or should be, or what they want to explore with him. That said, it made it easy for them to fall back on the identity crisis they've been writing for him, since they too didn't have a grasp on his identity. And the writing especially this season, makes that clear. I remember David Fury, who was very vocally "Spike is a soulless demon and evil evil evil" (not untrue) eventually was like "Spike was an anomaly that retained some part of his soul enough to love Buffy". They were all messy with it, which subsequently has made it a mess in the fandom. An interesting mess. Different sides and views will see what they want to see, where they want to see it, in what we're given. Confirmation bias everywhere.

Anonymous
>>91458607

I think they started going out later didn't they. I'm sure it's cause they were at a lot of comic cons together.

Stargazer1682
>>91458607

No, they were already dating while they were both doing the show; hence Joss' comments to Adam.

Ron Fehr

The final look that Spike gave in the bathroom scene seemed to be saying, to me at least, "What have I done?" He finally thought about how Buffy must have been feeling. Up until now, he always had ulterior motives, to convince her that she loves him.

Jamie Morgan

I had to take a little break from watching your vids - life got BUSY - and...wow, I did not know you'd got to this one already. Kinda wanna just skip ahead and watch this one but I've gotta go allllllll the way back to Angel 3x15 and I WILL BE PATIENT!!!

Anonymous
>>91523816

It always kills me to remember it was only in the episode prior that she accused him of setting the camera and when he got upset at being accused, she tells him he’s a soulless evil vampire, so why wouldn’t she think that he’d do that, and he says to her “I don’t hurt YOU”, and in that moment I believe he really meant that. Then right after she throws him off and escapes from his attack in this episode I always imagine he is recalling that he said that and part of him is horrified at what he did and realizes that he is at his core still a monster, and even if he loves her he can’t really understand her, and that means he has and will hurt her.

Corey

Fun fact in a not so fun episode is that the actors that played Warren and Tara dated for about 7 years starting around this time.

SpikesEcho

Some feel the bathroom scene was absolutely necessary, to remind you “Oh right, Spike's unrepentant evil". Except that’s not its intention. It's actually an extremely misguided and disgusting decision to show something that pushes against that. It's intended to hammer home the conflict in Spike's nature that they've been playing with the last two season, especially this season: the look of disgust with himself after he realizes what was happening/what he was doing; the frustration and confusion over both why he did such a thing, and also why he didn't go through with it. It's meant to show a seeming glimmer of a conscience or ability for remorse, both things he doesn't have true access to but which reverberate through him at times like echoes of humanity, much to his chagrin and to the audience's fascination. And of course, it's meant to show you that Spike is unstable and remind you he’s unreliably "good". People overall felt safe with him, which made them feel safe in rooting for him with Buffy. But a soulless demon with an identity crisis is not safe. Since they went about achieving this through victimizing and traumatizing our heroine, using her for a male character's story, it's altogether a gratuitous and unnecessary story decision. They'd documented his conflict and frustration with himself countless times already. And if they needed something to tip him over the edge, I believe they had many other options to conceive. This doesn't feel evil. And this doesn't make me hate Spike. Angel staging Jenny's body and watching Buffy and Willows pain with glee - that *feels* evil when you watch it. That fills you with hate for Angel. But this....this feels horrifically human. And it makes me feel disastrously sad for these people, and this spiraled mess borne from pains and abuses. Spike, broken, volatile, and desperate to not feel the way he does. Buffy, defined by all those things as well this season, but *finally* in a place of recovery, only for this to happen to her. Everything going on here is just far too human, and it grates hard against the very supernatural and allegorical place this relationship has existed in this season as its been explored. There were definitely ways to have made this feel evil to me. They captured it with Angel - there needs to be intent (ie Spike planning to assault/rape Buffy). There needs to be no room for misunderstanding (ie, no history of dubious "no's” or sexual aggression between them, and no upset Spike seemingly "snapping out" of it afterward). And there needs to be no subsequent identity crisis over his actions; just clear, unwavering satisfaction and joy over hurting Buffy. Then we'd be in evil territory. As far as SA/AR/rape goes, I actually really appreciate having the depiction of a perpetrator who is known and trusted, and who doesn’t come into things intending to assault/rape (instead of some no-name assailant in a mask coming through the window at night). These kind of assault and rape circumstances are by far the most prevalent, most under represented, and least addressed. It just doesn’t belong in this story, with these characters, nor in this way, for the purpose they use it for.

Steve Quast

Two of my least favorite scenes in the entire Buffyverse in one episode. UGH! This is a tough one.

Steve Quast

Remember earlier in the season when Buffy turned invisible and she said to the social worker, "Kill...kill...KILL....kill Doris. Kill everybody..." I think Joss hears voices like that in his head for real: "Kill....kill, Joss.....kill your characters....kill your audience's favorites....KILL"

Anonymous

Hi, my first comment and it has to be on this one. Because I always find it strange that ppl think of this as Spike's worst moment. In Crush he was gleefully recounting his murdering a child and her family. I think Joss wanted to remind ppl that Spike doesn't have a soul. He doesn't understand what morality is. Doesn't care even. The audience just didn't take that onboard when Spike kept reminding them so Joss put it centre stage. It doesn't change who Spike is up to now. Just my thoughts.

Kris Donovan
>>92218338

That was always something i didn't understand when i've watched other reactions to spike and comparing it to my initial viewing when the show aired, we knew he was not a good guy, nor a really bad guy, he was lacking in morals and it showed a few times. It seems a lot of folks needed reminding.

Anonymous

I’m not sure if I feel better or worse that it’s been 20 years since I first watched this episode and your reaction was exactly the same as mine seeing it live. It was BRUTAL.