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Buffy the Vampire Slayer || 2x14 || Full Reaction (Patreon)

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2020-07-14 18:52:58
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link: https://ws.onehub.com/files/n1yjw4iu

2x14: Innocence

so who wants to meet up and go fight angel? :D

idc if he is a vampire 😌 i will pound this bitch into dust myself


lol.... but yeah this episode is.......... so much. oh my god-

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Comments

chris allen

I love the fact it takes Alley 26mins in to the (full) episode to figure out how Angel lost his soul I almost lost my voice :)

Austin Peterson

Oh my gosh, I was just sitting here bored as heck thinking, I hope she uploads a new episode today!!!! Thank you!

Juan Sanchez

Oh joy! And here we go Buffyverse 😃😃😃😃😃😃😃

Righteous Bob

I'm so ready for this :D

Stewart Denew

thoughts as i start watching; i think you're going to need a hug. Let's see how it goes... Ok, yeah that one's a gamechanger :)

King Author

Oh great. I was having a busy work day until I saw your notice. Now I'm going to have to risk my job to stop everything and go watch this? Thanks a lot. grrrr.

Superfan Giovanni

I wish there was a way I could convey in a single short post how truly meaningful and entertaining these videos are, it's beyond comparison to other reaction channels or formats. What Alley is doing is entertaining, fun and a weird nostalgia trip for many of us who saw this show live at her age or younger. I'm kind of reliving my adolescence rewatching this along with her and her presence, reactions and opinions make it all fresh and new. It's Buffy+ thank you Alley!

Jenn Rose

Ahh yes! Lunch and an Alley reaction. Perfect combo!

Heather Hollenbeck

This is where Buffy really starts... and by that, I mean this is where the pain starts 😭

Bisibia

: 0 I didnt get a notif for this one and I will never forgive my Android. Getting an Iphone tomorrow now.

aeronitz

I was sitting here with no power and got the notification on my phone. Now I have something to do! Yay!

Slade Brown

I usually watch the edited versions exclusively, but I think I'm gonna make an exception this time.

Acacia

That scene at the end with Joyce and Buffy on the couch with the old music playing in the background is one of my favorite shots in all of Buffydom. This episode is like a gallery of pain. Buffy and Angel’s conversation is just as awful no matter how many times I see this episode. Then there’s Dru’s line of “you don’t want to kill her you want to hurt her ... just like you did to me.” I think it’s interesting how Dru and Buffy are contrasted to each other in this episode, becoming potential shadow selves. Also we stan Oz. Joss taketh away a boyfriend but he giveth a new and better boys in return.

Valkyrie

oh god here we go Ally im so sorry. Not even watched yet but I know how much you wanted to smooch Angel. Can't wait to watch. Let the chaos begin. GOD after watching and seeing you hate him immediately. You really are the best kind of bitch, women supporting women.

Graeme McCutcheon

We said it back at 1x01, but I think at this point it bears repeating: welcome to Buffy The Vampire Slayer. This is it. This is the show.

bewildered

I was so looking forward to your reaction to this episode! Definitely did not disappoint, and I am even more excited now to see all the rest of Season 2... and 3... and 4.... well, all of them actually. :D Thank you!

Ari is my Cat

The guy said he would lose his soul from a moment of true happiness. Clearly it didn't happen during so it most have been the post game afterglow that was the true moment of bliss. This is just my opinion and there is no way to confirm it.

Dhevian

FernWithy

Yeah, the curse is.... weird. I mean, the fact that it lifts under any circumstance. I can see, "The soul is not meant to give Angel happiness," but wouldn't it make more sense for it to be, "So if he feels true happiness, he'll die" rather than "he'll revert to form and be evil again"? Oh, well. I guess you can't always decide on what the consequences of magic will be? The performances here are amazing, and what a way to take that "Make teenage angst into real monsters" in a dark direction! And I love the interaction among Angelus, Spike, and Dru. It's twisted and weird, but... you know. Really well realized.

Thom Purdy

Great reaction! Just wanted you to know, and maybe you do, that an electric chair won't kill a vampire...but it will hurt like hell. I hope that would be enough for you...to like...torture Angel. But then, he does deserve it. I hope you have learned that, when Buffy cries, we all cry...and I'm a grown man! But she does it to me every time. So keep tissues handy. You won't need them for every ep, but when you do...

DB

We're finally getting to the good stuff! One thing that cracks me up is that Angel as a true Byronic hero "dies" on a dark and stormy night haha

Stephen Mintac

Yup 20+ years later and that scene in the car with Giles and Buffy still gets me... This show will always be iconic! 😭❤️ And of course, Angelus (Soulless Angel) is always an interesting character! You think Spike is evil.... Angelus said “hold my beer”

Rockworm

Petitition to officially change the word sex to "shmash"

Rockworm

ok serious talk time. Looking back at when I watched this show for the first time I think this is the episode that turned me into a bonafide fan. Joss Whedon that bastard hates us and we are all his little masochists. But I love just how this turns everything on its head. This is like the episode that says to the audience "stop trying to guess whats coming next you have no idea"

DB

Oh and something interesting that's been pointed out by Buffy scholars - time displacement used via images of Buffy's first time showed only after Angel is already bad. Chronologically speaking with these titles "innocence" should be first to be taken by "surprise". But we visually witness it the other way around. It's the show's way of making us acknowledge that innocence only after it is lost. And I might not be a Bangel shipper but that lovemaking scene was beautifully done. The lighting, the silhouettes, the MUSIC (Christophe Beck's score added so much dimension to this show). Its loveliness just makes the outcome even more painful.

aeronitz

It wasn't necessarily the "shmashing" that caused him to lose his soul. Many feel it was the contentment of laying there with her (his true love) afterward.

King Author
>>40352228

Yea just as I was afraid of. Damn onion cutting ninjas. Your reaction was the best as always.

Superfan Giovanni

I didn't check the discord but I don't recall anyone mentioning the judge is played by Brian Thompson from The X Files (Alley's coincidental "why does he look like an Alien?" Query from part 1 was quite fitting) he also played Luke in the Buffy pilot, the large vampire dude. Sorry for the "everyone already knows this basic trivia" post if it's already been covered.

Rachel Espiritu
>>40353902

It's so smart how they set up Dru that way earlier in the season. You think it's just to give Angel and Dru an interesting backstory, but you don't think there's any way it'd be actually relevant again. But well, now we have precedent for Angel killing everyone his target loves and torturing her to make her insane.

Thom Purdy

Great reaction! But, just so you know, an electric chair won't kill a vampire. It'll just hurt like hell. And, just in case you hadn't figured it out yet, when Buffy cries, we all cry. Keep tissues handy.

Pho3nixX

No one can make me cry like Buffy/SMG. When she takes off the ring and breaks down, I always cry with her. As always a great reaction!

Acacia
>>40353902

Right? It’s all been building for awhile now. This and then his attack on the Romani girl all go a long way of setting up Angel as someone who takes particular delight in physically, mentally (and implied sexually) delights in tormenting women. Which is part of the reason why I can never bring myself to hate Drusilla. She’s such an obvious victim. Which is why it’s all the more fun to see her and Spike having fun together, while also building some gray around him as a character. Like yeah he’s a murdering bastard, but he also *cares* for her. Joss at his finest character building.

Lisa Kristin
>>40354439

I think the curse works like that because it's the only way it can work. The curse is that Angel should be miserable for eternity. The only way he will be miserable is if he feels the weight of what he has done, he can't if he's soulless. So he gets a soul. If he feels a moment of peace and no longer feels that pain, the curse stops working and is broken.

Ari is my Cat
>>40355147

So you make sure there is a skylight and leave the chair on until the sun does the job.

Bixgirl1

I am so here for you stanning Oz and Giles lolol. Also. I have ~thoughts on this episode, so forgive me. 😂 First, the lifting of the curse itself. I think it's important to note Enyos' (Jenny's uncle) exact phrasing: "Angel was meant to suffer, not to live as human. If he experiences one moment of happiness, of contentment, one moment where the soul that we restored no longer plagues his thoughts, then that soul will be taken from him." A lot of people credit the sex, and I don't think that's totally wrong, *but* I think the sex was more representative than anything else, to him - of her trust, of the sort of intimacy and hope that he'd never felt before, and had assumed he never would. He'd been walking around for a century, completely tormented by the memories of what he'd done. (And yeah, it wasn't really him, it was the demon, but that's the whole point; he *remembers* all of it, still feels the urges to give into the demon sometimes (as referenced in s1 ep7), and so he *should* feel tormented). But Buffy being there with him, on that night, in his bed, that last whisper she remembered in her dream... Well, he loved her and felt loved by her. So it makes sense that sleeping with her would lift the curse. And, moving on - the curse itself. Now, okay, so. I've had 20+ years to stew on this, and for the first, oh, ten or so, it drove me absolutely crazy. I was like, "Jenny makes perfect sense, wtf kind of curse is that. People are going to die!!!" But as Enyos said - and *still*, god, I find this philosophy so troubling, but it's what her Romany (and I will try not to sound off on the casual uses of the derogatory/racist term "gypsy' on this show) clan believed - it's not justice they serve, it's vengeance. It bugs me a lot that they set up the curse that way but what else were they going to do? If they could have killed him, this legendary vampire, they might have set it up that way: feels happiness, poof he's dust. That obviously wasn't the case, but if Angel wasn't suffering for all of the wrongs he'd committed, what was the point of having cursed him to begin with. The Romany believed, Enyos said, that vengeance is a living thing that commands and kills; if the point is to punish him, they can't leave him free to move on. I get very worked up about this stuff, obviously. (Sorry! Lolol.) Loved, loved your reaction. Looking forward to the next, as always! :)

Pam Nail

David Boreanaz is so great here, and his whole vibe as Angelus is so completely different from ensouled Angel. And while I'm not wild about Buffy being metaphorically punished for having sex, I do love this as a riff on "I had sex with my boyfriend and now he's a completely different person." That conversation at his house is BRUTAL. And yeah, the fact that the curse can be undone and turn him back into a soulless killing machine is bizarre and I've never understood that. I get that Jenny's people want him to continue to suffer, but if he loses his soul, he's suffering even less. The scene where Willow finds out about Xander and Cordelia is the first scene I ever saw from this show, when it originally aired a million years ago. Love Willow and Oz. Love that Oz sees through her intentions with wanting to make out and is willing to wait until she genuinely wants to. Fun fact (and I hope I'm not the millionth person to point this out): the guy who plays the Judge is the same actor that played Luke (the Master's "vessel") in the first two episodes.

Daniel

The thing about the curse is, as the uncle said, they don't serve justice, but vengeance. The curse is a *human soul* -- under normal circumstances, an incredible gift. They, for all intents and purposes, resurrected the human that Angel had been before he became a vampire. What makes it a curse is that he feels all of the guilt of his actions. But if at any moment, that changes -- if he stops being plagued by his guilt, even for a moment (which is what the "true happiness" thing is about) -- then, for that moment, the soul instead becomes a gift, rather than a curse. They DID NOT WANT that. They don't care that removing his soul is what the vampire they actually wanted to punish would want; the soul CANNOT be allowed to be a gateway to happiness, or their vengeance becomes a boon. So instead they take it from him at that moment, so it never becomes a gift. They don't care that Angel returning to his old ways means he'll have more victims. They just don't want THEIR vengeance perverted.

Jon Freezin-Rain

Several thoughts occurred as I watched the reaction... All addressed in the post wrap up segment. so ..no comment..

Allan Cornett

Angel biting the smoking woman and then exhaling her smoke BEST REVEAL EVER.

Ashtara Levin

Oh sweetie, Are you Okay? These episodes are exactly why we love Buffy so much, but it doesn't make it any less of an emotional rollercoaste, even - as you've seen from the comments - A second or third time. Joss described Angel as the "perfect tortured hero" - He can never let his guard down and allow himself to experience a moment of contentment because that would unleash the worst of the worst on this world. Your reactions are FASCINATING to watch! when I see this, I never manage to go past denial and sadness - But you leapt straight to Anger. I LOVE how much you love our slayer. But yeah, that's the kicker - We knew Angelus (soules Angel) was sadistic, we HEARD what he did to Dru.. but oh brother... we. did. NOT. understand... That's why the curse is perfect, and that's why it's not the "climax" moment - but the calmness after that triggers him. and that's why we all "hate" Joss.

Ashtara Levin

Totally unrelated - maybe I'm tuning into your internal Jukebox - but this time around I heard "Let's go to the mall!" from HIMYM when you realized their not in the movies =P

Mark Zima
>>40354378

That's sort of spoilery, although I know you don't mean it to be. But it is possible to predict things as the episodes go forward based on when the other series starts. I'm with you on wanting her to start reacting to the other series at that point. But best to delete the comment I think. She's smart, and we don't want to give anything away by giving even the slightst clues.

zerofk

So, thoughts... This is a good episode. I'm not a big fan of Angel and this episode makes him so much more interesting to me. Sardonic Angel is so much better than smarmy Angel. I love Drusilla's lines about how she's naming all the stars. It just makes perfect sense in its craziness. And I also love Xander and Cordelia's banter, it's just fun to watch.

Neil Carleton

I adore how sardonic and chill Oz is.

UTU49

This is the episode where *everything* happens. We get advancement in several subplots all at once. After watching this episode, Amber (Introvert Reacts) said, "This is like a completely different show now." I find it excruciatingly difficult to describe this show to people who are starting it because seasons 1 and 2 are so different. This episode has more highlights than you can easily count. Buffy's last scenes with Giles and her mom are a special kind of beautiful.

Shashank

Alley was trying to save Buffy from this kind of experience: Buffy in Bad Eggs: “Angel, when I look into the future, all I see is you! All I want is you” In your reaction you kind of grimaced a bit and said “yeah sure that’s cute but also have some life goals don’t put your entire life over a boy.” Alley the Wise!! This is the episode, when I first watched Buffy, that made me sit up and pay attention, realizing that there was a LOT more going on than I thought and the show had a lot more potential then I'd realized or it had fully shown up to this point. I love how they’ve been telling the story of Buffy and Angel falling for each other in the background all season, but here it comes to the front with a twist. Despite Buffy’s slayer experiences, she’s very innocent about relationships and love. She has innocently projected a lot of her overwhelming feelings of love and desire onto Angel who she only kind of knows imo. I have a long argument for why melodrama in Buffy works leading up to the turn of Angel here but I will spare everyone, just saying that throughout this episode there is a tonal shift from inflated melodrama towards an emotional naturalism and emotional depth that feels like a gut punch and a fall back to harsher reality. The last two scenes between Buffy/Giles and Buffy/Joyce feel so emotionally grounded and natural compared to all the Angel/Buffy stuff leading up to this episode. This shift helps me [us] get a small sense of how jarring it must feel for Buffy. This show doesn’t just want to tell a story or show an emotional journey, it wants to take the viewer on an emotional ride WITH the characters. I love rides! Also Xander did nothing wrong. I’m glad willow let her feeling out finally, it’s been a long time coming. But like you said in Prophecy Girl you can’t force feelings, and Xander shouldn’t be shamed for making out with Cordelia. Who he kisses isn’t Willows choice. Loving your anger at Angel and love toward Buffy!

Alley Box
>>40357938

haha yess, only thing with xander, i was mainly “mad” at him just sarcastically bc he hurt willow’s feelings. but on the real, he shouldve at least told willow about it so she didnt find out that way :/ but teenagers r dumb so i get it lol

Angela Colon

Welcome to Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Every single reactor was waiting for this episode and hoping you'd make it past season 1. This is the episode that represents what this show is at its best. I can't wait for more.

Shashank
>>40357938

Yeah He should have, I think he was avoiding what happened when she found out, I can't hold it against him too much, I'd want to avoid that too lol. I though you were being sarcastic. and the "do men deserve rights" had me rollin. Also that scene might be Alyson Hannigan's best acting yet: we all feeling the hurt :( Just one of the few times I feel for Xander too :D

Ari is my Cat

I would like to award you for being the absolute fastest to jump on the "Lets kill Angel" train. Takes way longer with most reactors.

Alley Box
>>40357938

true, but I've been in that situation and it SUCKS so I feel for willow so badly 😭 but yeah her acting in that scene oh my godddd im so excited to see more of her

Aric Heintzelman

That’s the problem with curses, whether it’s old school European or mummy. There has to be a balance when you sic the dark forces on some deserving schlep for their misdeeds. The cursed suffer appropriately but there’s always a nasty kick-back if that curse is somehow broken. It helps to keep a long lineage of ancestors keeping an eye on things, though they’re seldom on time to prevent anything and are useful only for exposition. On the plus side, this kick-back keeps the high priests from throwing around these curses all willy-nilly.

Shashank
>>40357938

Sucks you had to go through that :( I've been on both sides, that's why I feel like shit for everyone.

UTU49

Here’s a nice video about how to handle the dismembered parts of the Judge’s body. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jOk8dk-qaU You gotta keep his pieces apart.

Dave Ford

You see - says Joss Whedon - this the bad thing that happens when you have teen sex...

Dave Ford

Oh - you may have missed it when you turned away. When Oz tells Willow "I can wait" - just check out the look on Willow's face in the moments after - AH nailed that scene so hard. Possibly my favourite moment of the episode, along with Giles' talk in the car. Just the look on Buffy's face as she crumples under the sheer power of her watchers love and support is everything.

Holi117
>>40354305

I see it the same way. It was not the act of sex itself, but a culmination of events. He almost said goodbye to the person he loved, they were together, safe, made live for the first time and fell asleep content in each others arms. It was that moment of pure peace, of bliss and contentment as they lay sleeping that was his ‘moment of true happiness’. And as the Romani man said, its not about justice, its about vengeance. Angelus was not cursed with a soul to make him good, he was cursed to make him endlessly suffer guilt and torment from his soul for the things he did without it. One moment where the soul no longer plagues him even for a moment and vengeance is no longer serving, the soul is taken away again. Poor Buffy, but epic painful writing arc from Joss and the team!!

Bryce Carlson

Innocence is a PSA against teenage coitus. Something that people were still very concerned about in the 90s. These days she'd be a member of the "me too" movement.

Holi117

I live this episode. I was surprised you jumped emotionally straight to anger and such but it was interesting. I remember just feeling gutted for them all, at the harshness, unfairness of angel losing his soul, and the pain it brought. But its also genius lol. I love the Oz moments here, and Willow’s line after catching Xander with Cordy is heartbreaking!! Giles is wonderful at the end, i love him supporting Buffy (as he should). Pure father figure! I mentioned in the last episode I realised after a few rewatches some things. Well bad eggs IS cringey but focuses a bit of sex and responsibility, consequences of sex. It seems throwaway, a funny to introduce the weird eggs and it is. But i later realised how it was setting up surprise and innocence. While I hate the idea that buffy should be (even metaphorically) punished for having sex with the guy she loves, her actions HAVE had consequences... She has become an adult in many ways and lost her innocence and is now faced with trying to somehow deal with the consequences. Its quite clever, and very sad at the same time, I think.

Shashank
>>40357938

Also didn't mean to tell you or anyone how to feel. Sorry if that's what I communicated, was just trying to share my thoughts on Xander.

Tim Pierce

These two episodes are widely considered to be the point in the series that BTVS went from above average to megahit. Strap yourself in Alley. All your training has led to this.

Leenis

I'm not mad at Angel at all. What we are seeing is Angelus, and they built him up beautifully that past season and half. He is truly menacing.

KiwiJello

I LOVE how we are only in the second season and already you with the "Oh NO Joss wrote this". You aren't wrong. He likes to sucker punch people on all of his shows, and then just pack in character movement.

Dave Ford

Oh, BTW - this two-parter won an Emmy! For its make-up :-/

timetot

The episode we've all been waiting for! I have but one request going forward: PLEASE continue to edit the bell collar sound into evil Angel scenes. Nothing would make me happier.

Steve Quast

Aaaaaaand this -- THIS -- is one of those episodes that highlights just how crazy this show can get. It's one of those landmark episodes that we've been waiting to see your reaction to from the beginning. Dammit, Joss! What the hell is wrong with you? Did you lose your soul, too? Or did you have one to begin with? Ay-ay-ay! Such heart-rending, amazing stuff. And yeah, the words Angelus says to Buffy is a laundry list for a things a guy should NOT say to a girl after they sleep together for the first time. If I were David Boreanez I would have been like, "Okay...I see the words you've written here in the script, but I don't think I can say them!" lol

Dan H

It's important to take a step back and realized that this episode kinda started something important - especially for you as a "Supernatural" fan. This episode gave permission for genre TV shows to have dire consequences that A) last, and B) come out of relatively nowhere. Us kids growing up in 90s were used to every plot having to resolve neatly in that week's episode, and *maybe* something big would happen in a season finale. This episode is... so much, like you say. I'm a big Xander fan, and one of my favorite moments for him is actually that moment of clear intuition that it was time to really Not Trust Angel. I kinda wish he'd been the one to intervene as well (instead of Jenny). The Judge was a great plot device. His true purpose in being, the reason from a writing standpoint he exists *at all*? Is to announce to the audience that Angel had really turned, wasn't faking. And that kind of plot device can be done in lots of lame, stupid ways - this show managed to make it do double duty as an apocalyptic threat. I won't say "Innocence" is necessarily Top 10 for me, but it's probably the first episode you've gotten to other than "Prophecy Girl" that routinely starts showing up in those lists. EDIT: In fairness to the curse, they weren't trying to say something crass about "true happiness". Remember, it happened well after the fact, while they slept. Sex with Buffy wasn't the moment, it was just pushed him the last step toward it. Also, the curse's "failure mode" is pretty well-worn trope in magical/fantasy writing, the TNSTAAFL factor (no free lunch). Same justification for the Mummy's uber-powers in the 99 movie - you want to accomplish something specifically over the top magically, you have to trade something away. EDIT, PART DEUX: Now that we're here I can point back to my favorite bit of foreshadowing for all of this - in "When She Was Bad", when Buffy taunts Angel, if he'd ever imagined what it would be like one on one between them.

Bryce Carlson
>>40361792

For all of the reactions when Willow caught Xander kissing Cordelia, most people overlook how he reacted when Angelus was threatening harm to Willow. No thought for himself, he assaulted Angelus and rescued his best friend.

Bryce Carlson
>>40363704

It is an indicator of just how good an actor Mr. Boreanez is that he was able to deliver those lines with conviction as they are so different from the person he actually is.

Brandon Ross

Been waiting four hours to get off work so I can watch.... yussss

L R

It's not Angel anymore it's a soulless demon with Angel's face. That's the devastating thing

Ashley

Joss wanted this to be the typical having sex with a man trope where the guy then turns into a "bad guy" by being non-committal once he's gotten the sex. David Boreanaz did the blow off scene with SMG so good! Of course Sarah is always amazing, but my other favorite highlights are the Oz & Willow van scene -- it makes me tear up everytime. You can literally see Willow fall in love with him with the look she gives him. I love Cordelia as always and we get to see some deepening in her and Xander's relationship. As always *love* Giles and I thought it was funny Alley realized the S.E.X. thing just as Giles was figuring it out. Ugh, this episode is amazing.

Elisa H.

Woo hoo!!

Alley Box
>>40361792

lmaoo yeah well i am currently having some “issues” with this guy im talking to right now and my hatred of men was at an all time high so- i was ready to fight someone, it just so happened to be angel lolll. but yeah ikrrr so many great things about this episode

Brian Quinn

In my opinion the thing that makes him lose his soul is after sex, he's lying beside Buffy and he's so happy and that's his moment of true happiness

kemperor .

Yeah, this one is a game changer. It's funny, when you were giving your review about bad eggs about how its a cautionary tale about sex, I was just thinking "wait till she gets to this one."

Brian Quinn
>>40365039

It really is 😂 thank god Giles is the only decent guy and Oz 😂

Steve
>>40354439

i can see how people would think differently about the nature of the curse, but i think it works really well as written. they can't make a vampire regret his evil acts, due to the absence of the soul. by returning the soul, Angel becomes capable of true regret and remorse. however, the soul also empowers him to feel genuine love and joy. the soul was designed to be a punishment, so if he uses it for peace and joy, then he shouldn't have it, so it gets removed. the objective of the curse was always to keep Angel from knowing peace.

Jessie

I love how much you appreciate Cordelia! She is such a fashion icon! A true goddess

Jessie

Written & directed by Joss Whedon Alley: 👁👄👁

Danny Tyrell

I've been waiting for this since your first reaction video and it was so worth it aaaaaaaah As someone who's had time to gain some emotional distance from this episode I find Angelus (as fans often refer to soulless!Angel as, for the sake of clarity) a delight in a villainy, god-what-an-asshole sort of way, but oh man. Poor Buffy. It really wasn't her fault and we all know she would never have intentionally caused this, but to lose your boyfriend and know that your actions, however innocent of the consequences you were, are what lead to it, and then have the soulless jackass version of him running around rubbing your face in it... oof.

Arnold Kim

This episode is what made this show my all time favorite. After this there was no turning back. I love how you picked up on all the different things that are happening here, all the shifting character dynamics, and all the intense emotion. I was a Bangel shipper, but I’m with you, I wanted to knock his teeth out after that bedroom scene. So we know a few things here: 1) Angel is gone and the serial killer wearing his face wants to kill all of Buffy’s friends. 2) Xander is pretty much a typical teenage boy, 3) that curse has a major design flaw, and 4) Oz is a god among men.

Steve Quast
>>40363704

David Boreanez is such an amazing actor. Angel and Angelus are two very different characters, and he portrays them both so well.

Livia

Can you spot Miss Calendar in this Prince video ... hint - her name is Pearl ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6f4BwQFF-Os

Fasda

Oh man I've been waiting for this fro a while, can't wait to see how upset this will make you.

Tessa Grissom

I could never bring myself to want Angel dead, even after this episode. I guess I saw him as a victim along with Buffy. He didnt know he could break the curse accidently. But I watched this as a pretty young teenager so maybe I'm biased 😅

Phoenix Dawn

Just for clarity about Jenny's role, her role was to keep an eye on Angel and ensuring that his suffering (due to his soul and guilt) continued and that he never is happy (she didn't know what consequences his true happiness would bring, she didn't know he would lose his soul). She didn't know Buffy and Angel would end up like this, I guess mainly because Angel is a vampire. She probably didn't think of it much. She just thought it was serving her people (which, I think, she understood but didn't always agree with or take it too seriously)

Phoenix Dawn
>>40363704

I hope he wasn't drawing much inspiration from a real incident lol.

Chris Hanley

Firstly with Angelus, that is by far the coolest vampire bite in all of cinema and tv! But what a shakespearean tragedy, it was a love story that had everything working against it, and yet she was still able to make him so happy despite all of that burden on his conscience, and break the curse.

Chris Hanley

Also not many people pick up on this, but in the last episode the screen fades to white after they start to consummate their relationship. In cinematic language, a fade to white represents death. It was at this moment that Angel was lost and Angelus was set free.

Chris Hanley

I'm not sure we should be on Willow's side with her anger with Xander. We get super annoyed when men do the same thing after rejection. Her emotions are completely normal for a teenager though, so don't think i'm vilifying her just for having emotions. The lesson here is that people can change their feelings about you, but you can't earn someones feelings (perse). People feel how they feel, and Xander didn't reciprocate her feelings. No one has the right to someone's affections, they have to return your feelings on their terms, not yours.

Alley Box
>>40373387

of course. most of my reaction during those scenes was completely sarcastic. i just have been where willow was so i really empathized with her

Elisa H.

I always liked the fact (and props to Boreanaz acting skills) that I felt you can tell Angelus is a different character. Just watching surprise and innocence back to back Angel and Angelus are 2 different people. The way he moves, his tone of voice, no more confused puppy looks, if u hear the kitty bells it's already too late for you with Angelus

Chris Hanley
>>40373387

Yeah, I'm 31 and I've felt the same way pretty recently ironically! Haha took a lot of conscious rationale to not say something stupid lol

Chris Hanley
>>40374289

Even Joss Whedon underestimated Dave as he wasn't a trained actor, he was discovered by a casting agent as he was walking his dog. Joss was pleasantly shocked with his performance as Angelus. Dave may not of been a trained actor, but he has very strong work ethic and worked very hard. He didn't take his opportunity for granted, he knew he had it good being discovered the way he did, when so many people out in hollywood struggle with the competition. I really respect Dave's integrity.

Fasda

Oh so another bit of Buffy's dream from innocence gets explained this episode. Why was Drucilia in Buffy's dream? Drucilia here said that you want to hurt her, like me. That's the reason. These two characters actually share quite a bit. they were sweet innocent wided girls before they knew about vampires. They also were deeply changed by Angel. Their first sexual 'experience' was Angel, for buffy as a partner and drucilia well I'm not sure rape is the right word because it may not be awful enough. So in the dream Angel is killed by basically Buffy through... there's no good way to phrase this so let's go comedic... penetration. And after the penetration in the story and the dream Angel is gone because there is now nothing left of the man Angel only the vampire Angelus. Oh and go back at surprise and look at how similar Buffy and Dru are. Both are having a party. Both even wear the same dress in the second dream

Brent giesbrecht

And there is the brilliance of joss whedon's writing. He took an almost universally beloved character and in 2 seconds , angel became one the best villains on tv. Props to everyone. Joss, David, and Sarah's acting. Some of the best villain stuff i've ever seen. So much, that Angelus has formed many d&d villains i've used against my players. And it gets the emotional reaction every time. So, Alley, watching your reaction was sweet music to my ears. I'm looking forward to the rest of your watch.

Nicholas J Hoover
>>40356087

I think it's simpler than that. the magic of the curse is that he's in pain. if he isn't in pain that lifts the curse. The curse dictates he has a soul to have pain. thus if he doesn't have pain he's no longer suffering the curse. he's essentially broken the curse and the curse lifts. thus the soul leaves. end of story.

Daniel
>>40356087

The uncle emphasizes that the soul is taken from him. The curse breaking was intentional, not incidental. They designed it to happen. That implies they could design it to react differently, so it can't be that simple.

Daniel
>>40357938

While Xander isn't obligated to reciprocate Willow's feelings, he also shouldn't be treating her as he has been -- he is clearly aware of her feelings, and he has deliberately not told her he isn't interested... Because he kind of is, on some level. Remember how he tried to use her as a fallback after Buffy rejected him? Or how they almost kissed in the season opener? I'm guessing having Willow follow him around with puppy-dog eyes is a bit of an ego boost. That said, I'm not saying he's being deliberately callous. Willow is his best and oldest friend, and he'd do anything to protect her, which includes from himself. Xander doesn't have the best self-esteem, and part of why he hasn't gotten with Willow is, I think, that he believes she deserves better. But he's also a teenage boy who can't look at linoleum without having sexual thoughts, and rejecting Willow would cause her pain, which he wants to avoid. So instead he's kept her in a holding pattern... For years and years. It's not fair to her.

David Lally

Remember, the Master said of Angel to Darla that "he was the most vicious creature i ever met. I miss him" Angel was a good person. Angelus is just a demon driving his body. It's going to be an insane ride. :)

David Lally

Thinking more, where this all leading will likely wreck you. Stock on tissues mate. :)

Lunar Darkling

I mentioned look at Angels ring- it changed around- I LOVED the attention to detail the costume people paid to this.

Lunar Darkling

Poor Alley took so long to figure it out lol- also.. I already didn't like how Willow treated Xender. She had no right to be that angry at him. I recommend Passion of the nerd analyse of this episode. It wasn't the sex, watch the scene again. It was being in her arms after sex, that moment of bliss, pure happiness that took his soul.

Leon Hardt
>>40387563

I kind of get Willows reaction. Its less about her beeing jealous about him beeing with another woman but more about one of the pillars of their friendship (at least in her mind), the hate against Cordelia broke away to. its irational but kinda understandable.

Lunar Darkling
>>40387563

Oh yeah it is understandable but still unfair on Xender. Xender gets hate for his reaction to Buffy's rejection but Williow should also get called out for this. She is punishing Xender for her feelings for him. She never asked Xender to be anything more, all they had was a few flirty moments. Yes she is a teenager and angry at the boy she likes and she is really harsh to him.

Isac christensen

yeah we can go pound him you will have to bring the s'mores though

Isac christensen

"I got Older" fantastic line bravo Joss

Rob

This is where the fun begins. Finally! As said earlier, welcome to BtVS. Buckle up, it’s gonna get bumpy.

Kirby
>>40354305

Yes, perfectly stated. I really hate it when people criticize Angel turning, by saying his perfect moment of happiness was an orgasm. It's so reductive. What took his soul away was that moment of contentment and peace when you fall asleep in the arms of the person you love. That is true happiness.

Kirby

Great episode and great reaction. So many memorable moments - the look on Willow's face when Oz says he can wait to kiss her. Such great acting from Alyson Hannigan, you can see her falling in love with Oz in that moment. Just beautiful. The scenes at the end with Buffy and Giles and Buffy and her mom are sheer poetry and never fail to bring a tear to my eyes. ( sure wish I knew how to make paragraphs, oh well). One little moment that I want to point out, is when Buffy pulls out the rocket launcher, and Angel and Dru are scrambling to get away, and the Judge just stands there confused. Haha, makes me laugh every time.

Nikolai5
>>40368436

All curses that I can think of have clauses that break them. "Moment of happiness" is just another version of "love's true kiss".

Taylor Richburg

Waiting for Saturday like: 👁👄👁

Ged Kelly

Alyson Hannigan's face in the scene with Oz in the van is transcendent. Heart-stopping.

Dusty

I feel like there's a slight plot hole in that she tells Buffy she was sent to watch her and keep them apart - after she tells her uncle "oh, well, there's this girl..." unless it was someone else entirely that sent her and her uncle just found her. I dunno.

Sandy S.

Hahah...when did he get clothes? It's been a source of speculation for years. lol

CrookedCat
>>40363920

Yeah, it's not "just" the sex. They also before told them they loved each other, which is huge. And it was after all that, just sleeping together that yanked Angel's soul away.

John Kress

At first you think "Does any girl deserve Oz?" But then you think, "Yeah, Willow does." So it all works out nicely that way.

R J Walker (FumblesMcStupid)

The scene where Giles tells Jenny 'get out' is sooooo good. Someone pointed out elsewhere that it's a dad move, as is the wonderful conversation in his car. He's willing to support Buffy no matter what. He might well feel hurt and betrayed by Jenny but the shooting script says that he says 'get out' without anger or joy, it is simply a decision. Buffy needs him so that's what he has to do.