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May 28 Update (Patreon)

Published:
2017-05-28 19:48:36
Imported:
2021-07

Content

Hey, everyone. The TLS release is public, KoD is launched with great success, these are good things. I am kind of tired for a number of reasons, but I'm not going to let up now. Onward to the next updates of both games!

Meanwhile, though, I wanted to get everyone's opinions on another matter. As I've mentioned, I have a number of side projects in the works. One of these is essentially done - I could release it now, I'm just not sure if it could use more polish or if now is a good time. I will make a preview for $10 backers when I have some free time from my main work.

Here's the thing: though I love the core of this game, I have some doubts about whether or not the production values should be improved. I'm enthusiastic about the art, I mean things like GUI, a custom soundtrack, etc. 

For a long time I've been toying with the idea of doing some kind of crowdfunding campaign. I have a number of reasons that I'll list below, but for now I'll just say that this upcoming project might be a good candidate.

I want to be clear, though, that I wouldn't be doing this to try to milk more money out of patrons. You guys would get all the equivalent rewards. For example, a copy of the game will probably be the $10 reward - if you're pledging $10 on Patreon, or have given me more than $10 total, you'll get a free copy along with the usual TLS rewards. You guys are my core supporters, you'll get the first chance at anything I make, free or commercial.

Instead, I want to try this as another experiment. I hear from a decent number of people who are fundamentally opposed to the Patreon model. They want to support a specific project and receive a discrete product for their money, not support a creator. That strikes me as a reasonable stance, but will those people actually show up for a non-hypothetical project? Not sure.

If you guys have major objections to this idea, though, now would be the time to voice them. I also want to get your opinions on something else: crowdfunding platforms.

Right now it looks like my only real option is Kimochi. The platform itself is nearly dead, it would basically be just a gathering place for anyone I could interest in this project. My question for you is if everyone here thinks the platform looks safe enough to use - I know many people are concerned about their money/info and porn websites.

But I'm still very uncertain about this, which is why I wanted to post asking for opinions. Here is the issue as I see it:


Pros

 - Reach a new audience: In addition to the anti-Patreon people, this game has the potential to reach a large group of less NSFW-focused people who would never otherwise take notice of my work.

 - Higher quality release: More feedback from more people, honing the game synopsis/pitch, player feedback on which parts would most benefit from more investment, etc. Making the game go through the grinder of a campaign can only improve its quality.

 - Better chance of a successful release instead of sinking into obscurity: This is the biggest threat to new games, and a successful campaign helps ward against that.

 - Track record: I think I have a decent reputation on Patreon, but if Patreon ever closes or kicks out NSFW creators, I would like to have a track record of being able to conduct successful crowdfunding campaigns as well.


Cons

 - Bad optics: Despite all my above disclaimers, it would still be seen as "double dipping" by some people. Now, some people seem to be offended by indie creators getting money at all, but in this case I think they have more of a legitimate point. Some Patreons also do Kickstarters, but not many in the NSFW games community.

 - Consumption of time/energy: This one shouldn't be underestimated - running a campaign does suck up both. It wouldn't use it all; I would still put out TLS/KoD updates in a reasonable amount of time.  But basically, this would be choosing to invest some time and energy in promotion instead of raw creation. This is something I think is necessary, but I'm never eager about it.


So anyway, that's what I'm thinking about right now. Part of me wants to just release this game so you guys can play it, but part of me thinks that would be ignoring a potentially good opportunity. I was skeptical about posting Ouroboros on Newgrounds, for example, and that went well. 

This is something I have been turning over in my mind a long time, often going back and forth, so I welcome feedback. 

Comments

EG Douglas

It is a shame that Kimochi does not appear to have flourished, there were some interesting ideas there. That said, most of them seem to have been trawled by Nutaku. I would think much of the potential backlash against "double-dipping" from those who wouldn't get angsty anyway could be averted by doing exactly what you've done: run it by those who support you on Patreon first and make clear that it would be to target a different base, rather than overlap with current funders. Without knowing more about the game, I can't offer much feedback on how well I think it might do. If it's another RPGMaker game, as I assume, it might face even more potential backlash as people could think you don't need money given the assets and engine already exist and you're just putting them together. Wrong, but people don't usually check opinions for validity on the internet... Another thing to consider would be backer tiers and potential stretch goals. Some projects have suffered just as much from getting too much funding than too little. I see no intrinsic reason not to consider the idea. Just depends on the details.

Dorago

That's dosen't bother me that you make a crowdfunding campagne if I can get the same with my patreon pleadge, personaly I pleadge to you the artist so that's why I prefere it ^^ As for platforms, you could allways use Kickstarter, I know some hentai games that were crowndfunded there

Hollow49

Kimochi Redlight has some problems, mainly that basic features like being able to see whether you've already pledged and being able to edit your pledge amount aren't properly implemented. Still, it seems to be the only NSFW crowdfunder out there right now. (RIP Offbeatr.) I think it could be worth a try, but you'd need to spread the word a lot since there isn't enough activity on the site itself to keep potential donors checking for new projects. In the end, I think you have a good enough track record that you could pull in enough prospective donors. If your campaign is clearly marked as expanding on a feature-complete game this may make it easier - Several of the first wave of the Kimochi campaigns were of this type.

Darthjake

I pretty much agree with EG, those ppl that are going to get angry/angsty, are going to anyway, no matter how much you explain it. As with here, I'm certain that once the undecided majority see how you charge into your projects, they'll be just a happy as us to support you.

Lord Forte

It's always hard to say with stuff like this, because it's hard to really get into the mindset of people who get offended by this kind of thing enough to understand what would or wouldn't be enough to placate their fears. For example, I didn't think anyone would seriously be upset about the socioeconomic status on the survey when it was optional, but I was wrong, even if it was just a small number of people from what you said back then. That said, the majority of the people here strike me as pretty reasonable, so I'd like to think there aren't a significant number of people supporting you who would be significantly bothered by a decision to expand that didn't negatively effect them in any significant way. Just thinking about it, though, if you did go forward with the idea, then I think the best advice I could offer would be to make sure it was eminently clear that patrons get the benefits, which seems like it would be pretty easy to integrate into the statement of tier benefits. Personally speaking, I think your work is good enough to deserve the additional funding, so I'm in favor of a way to get further support, especially since single games are so different from something like TLS. So, I think the biggest reason not to would be the weaknesses of the platform available--I haven't really looked at Kimochi, but based on others' comments, it sounds like it's... less than ideal. I dislike Nutaku in general, but that's more because I despise pay-to-win/microtransaction games and that seems to be their main stock in trade, not because I feel they aren't trustworthy. If anything, their general size and success seems like a decent indicator of being trustworthy. So, overall, I think the pros are generally more compelling than the cons, but both sides have enough to consider it carefully, and as others have said, it's hard to say anything about whether this specific project is the right place to start that until I see the preview. I'll look forward to that, but in the meantime I hope you get some rest!

Edward Culham

Not sure how the having given you 10$ in total works on here or if this is just for this game. There has been some side projects that have been some truly fun games although I will admit, I am here for TLS. No other game has really ever gotten me so involved that I keep playing it if I simple am bored. I wont count the times were I have played the first two chapters just because.

Edward Culham

Out of curiosity though and am sure some others would like the answer as well. What are all the other games and side projects that you have done but not released publicly? And is it still possible to be able to get them after you originally gave them to your patrons?

Censuur

I'm all for expanding horizons, networking and advertising is a cumbersome but necessary investment of time and effort, can't say I know enough about the specifics to say anything about your actual plans, but I see no real reason to object.

Anonymous

- Making games costs time and money, especially when you need third party input for assets (re: your Darghelon/Gheldaron maps issues). Some projects may require extra funds to pull through, and in that case it's perfectly fair to look for extra sources of funding to make them happen. - Marketing your games and projects is absolutely necessary if you want a greater audience (which I hope you get). It's sad, in a way, as it does take time away from creative input, but it's so rare in the hentai world for games to hit critical success by word of mouth alone due to social media taboo... your move is more than justified. Don't fret about it. - as EG says above, you did the right thing and were honest and transparent with your supporters. The ones who will complain will get hissy no matter what. It's always hard to hear vitriol and bile on the regular about your funding practices (and given your choice of words, I'm assuming that's what you've been getting) but rest assured that these will be the minority and you have the ethical and moral high ground. With all that said, I am really keen to see what these side projects are. The Desecration of Wings announcement already has me curious, and with your track record so far, I think most of us are eager to learn more about what you have in store. Heck, maybe some might make an extra contribution in top of their regular patronage if it's interesting enough. I second Dorago on recommending Kickstarter. It's way more reliable and secure (since this is a big concern for you) and is not impossible to put 18+ stuff there. Also, Kimochi's current lineup is disappointing at best, cringe-inducing at worst, and almost never successful. It would not help for your project to be there. (Side note: don't worry about Patreon kicking out NSFW creators. Like it or not, it's too big a part of their revenue for them to just toss it out.) Anyhow, hope you get some good rest. Always grateful for the amazing work you've put out so far :)

sierralee
>>5386041

Thanks for offering your thoughts. This project is Ren'py, which is easy to make entirely custom in comparison to RPG Maker. I've tried to do my reading on crowdfunding, and I think I'd avoid a lot of physical rewards or really high level tiers. Instead, I'd want to offer modest tiers with reasonable rewards directly tied to the work, like the game itself.

sierralee
>>5386165

Thanks, glad to have your support! Kickstarter would definitely be a stronger platform, especially for this project. Unfortunately, it doesn't allow any degree of anonymity and I haven't finished setting up a company yet. This is regrettable, but I don't see any way around it.

sierralee
>>5386268

Ah, that was just the sort of problem I wanted to know about. But like you said, it's the only real option at the moment, so I have to consider it.

sierralee
>>5386284

Thanks for your thoughts on this. I certainly hope I could prove myself via this channel too!

sierralee
>>5386459

Thanks for your thoughts. I definitely share a lot of them in terms of trying to mitigate potential issues. Nutaku mostly trades in F2P games that aren't my cup of tea, but based on Ouroboros, right now they're the biggest game in town. (It would be different if I made a platformer, of course.) I wish I could have launched this project when Kimochi launched, Nutaku was even offering bonus funding, but the timing was not right then.

sierralee
>>5386801

I can see the total amount each patron has given me. For example, you've given over $50 - even if you drop your pledge today, you could message me in the future and I'd give you free versions of commercial games. Anyway, TLS is obviously one of my favorite things too. ^-^ Glad you like it!

sierralee
>>5386862

Most of my finished work is released (Noxian Nights, Ouroboros). There was a side project alongside Ouroboros that is currently on indefinite hiatus, so I don't like to stress it. Currently, I have three side projects, at various stages from 99% to 40% finished. I hope for all those to be commercial releases, so of course patrons would get them.

sierralee
>>5387863

I appreciate you sharing all your thoughts! Glad I have your support on so many aspects of this. As I mentioned to Dorago, I would like to do Kickstarter, but I'm afraid that this is not an option for me right now. There was actually just a pretty big hentai game on Kickstarter that proved it's possible, but unfortunately I don't think it'd work. My fear with Patreon is some kind of major payment processor issue or court case... and also just some general paranoia. I really love being a creator, I want to make as sure as possible that I can keep doing it for the foreseeable future.

Dubsington

If the problem with KickStarter is anonymity, I'd suggest you focus on getting yourself a little S corp set up just for this purpose. They are very easy and cheap (I've done two, and it is literally an afternoon's work) and if you have a grander plan for a company you can always merge the two later; that's simple with S corps too. (The whole point of them is to simplify the money distinctions, after all.) I think getting invested in a dying, sketchy platform is a mistake. The energy would be better spent working on solving the underlying problem, IMHO, especially if that is your plan anyway.

sierralee
>>5388997

I actually do have an S corp set up, but unfortunately Kickstarter still requires a contact person to be publicly listed. Since I don't have any employees yet, their two options (individual/corporation) are roughly the same for me. I appreciate your input and suggestions, though!

CrazyChameleon

Depends .. As a supporter on patreon I'd expect to get access to all of your work. I'd start thinking things were a bit suss if you had another crowdfunding campaign and were sectioning off other creative content just for that. Technically stuff like that could still be above board but I'd always wonder whether or not you where fully committing to either platform. However since both sets of supporters will be getting the same body of work (As I understand) this is a moot point. I've nothing against a creator I like getting more money. Honestly your participation in hreinn games is more of a concern for me. But I like that content so it doesn't bother me too much. The one thing I'd really like to see is TLS finally getting itself a nice artist. And come out of its midgame funk where simon is running around putting out fires and have some really cool shit happen.

Andrey Kulikov

I wiil speak as your fan and not as patreon. Pros of crowdfunding campaign outweigh cons. If you want to move forward as a professional creator then you have no choice other then find new opportunities. So of course you should try! I agree with commentators that say you shoudn't bother yourself with "Bad optics". Your way of doing business is very honest and open. So there is only energy consumption thing... Well, you already have expirience of managing multiple projects. If you are sure that you can manage campaign without harm to other projects, then there is no reason not to trust you. So... crowdfunding campaign is very risky thing (often i coudn't grasp why certain compaign was successful). But regardless of that it can be good opportunity for you) Therefore i think you should give that idea a chance.

Secular Reason

People will be people. As long as you are still giving the "rewards" (games) to your patrons even if they aren't in the crowdfunding, then there is no basis for any claims of "double dipping". I'm sure plenty of people might like TLS but not Ouroboros or vice versa. Allowing them to support one game instead of all is fine. I'm sure someone will still try to pull nonsense claims out their ass (it IS the internet after all) but so what? Your patrons will know what they are or are not getting and will respond accordingly. I like to think that you have smarter people here than in other places, considering the nature of your games.

sierralee
>>5392130

Yes, my intent was for both groups to get the same body of work. That strikes me as a fair way to go about something like this. Your concern regarding Hreinn Games is something that has come up in the past, and I do think there are potential legitimate concerns there. All I can say is that I try to be clear about the lines that have been drawn and what everyone is getting. I'm really feeling more hopeful about getting an artist in the foreseeable future instead of as an abstract goal. Without getting into detail, releasing some of these side projects could actually take us much closer to this becoming a reality. Sorry you didn't like the firefighter nature of this chapter. The war should be pretty intense, though, and after chapter three the focus of the game will shift again.

Strafe

The one concern that I might have would be the energy involved doing a crowdfunding campaign for a separate project; releasing less content or having a longer time between updates with TLS may upset some people. Apart from that, I think the idea seems interesting and worth looking into more, I for one would like to see more of the projects that you're working on and waiting a bit longer for a better quality game does not really bother me.

sierralee
>>5397913

Yes, I'm afraid that would be a real tradeoff. While I think I could avoid excessive TLS delays, there would be an inevitable bit of delay. I would have to hope that people on average are willing to wait a bit in exchange for a new game in the meantime. But anyway, thanks for your thoughts!

Aria

I've stayed around this long for you, I'm not tied to any one game. Just realized I wasn't subscribed to Hreinn Games anymore. That's been fixed.