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Dear Patrons,

You may have already received an email from Patreon about this, but going forward they are changing the way payments are processed. In the past, you'd pledge your fee, and the money would have things like credit card fees and Patreon's cut taken out before it got sent onto the recipient.

As of this month, Patreon intends to give all creators a straight 95% cut of the money. Sounds great on paper, but they are passing the fees onto the patrons themselves. Whatever you pledge, Patreon will now whack a 2.9% fee plus a straight 0.35cents on top of it.

This flat fee is really quite ridiculous when you consider there are many $1 patrons who expect to pay $1, and those $1 patrons are the lifeblood of many a Patreon campaign. Even one as seemingly successful as mine can fall apart bigtime if a huge chunk of $1 patrons decide (not unfairly) that the price hike is an overstep. 

I risk putting a dent in my own wallet even further addressing and reminding my patrons of this, but as with any change to the service, ultimately those using Patreon are left to explain to their patrons what's going on, since anything else would be irresponsible.

For the record, I do not think this is a good move on Patreon's part. Even on the offchance it results in more money coming this way, the scheme could prove destructive to smaller Patreons who feel every dent much more brutally.

Patreon champions itself as putting creators first, but this move puts itself above everybody else's considerations.

As always, thank you for supporting The Jimquisition in any way you do.

Thanks,

Jim. 

Comments

Anonymous

Right, well in that case Jim I'm upping my pledge to £2

Anonymous

Thanks for the heads up. I’m not going anywhere.

jimquisition

I blame NOBODY for deciding to jump ship at this point, but gestures like this are truly wonderful. Thank you. <3

Philipp Roensch

Any other services where we can still support you, with more control?

Anonymous

Thanks for letting us know Jim, i hadn't been made aware anywhere else.

Anonymous

Wow, no, I had no idea. Great looking out for us. I'll stick around for now as I intended to up my contribution when work started back up. All the more reason to look forward to doing so. Thanks for having our backs. Look forward to the content and have fun at your wrestling nights!

Anonymous

There is a few alternatives but moving everyone would be a huge undertaking with some serious knock on effects.

Joelle Seguin

Could this be a regional thing? (I'm Canadian) Because I haven't received a notifications that this kind of change is taking place, nor can I find a press release outlining them.

Anonymous

If possible, have a yearly tier? Minimum 12$?

Anonymous

I havn't been made aware either so i don't think it's reigonal.

Anonymous

Ill be keeping my $5 pledge. I really hope not too many people jump ship, if it comes to it ill be happy to pledge a little more. ^w^

Anonymous

With VAT this puts my $1 pledges up to $1.60ish . I can imagine this making a lot of people drop some pledges

Anonymous

Nothing in the UK yet either, however, as we already have VAT on top of the $1.00 pledge making it $1.20, with the additional fee it would become $1.66 (assuming VAT is charged after the fee which is likely). That's a huge hike especially if you're supporting multiple Patreons at $1. I'm not sure I'll be accepting such a large increase, sorry. Here's the details from Patreon <a href="https://patreon.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005631963" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://patreon.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005631963</a>

Anonymous

Yikes, I already pay VAT on top. I'll be reconsidering some of my donations, but will still support Jim effing Sterling Son

Anonymous

But if creators already getting only 95% aren't those new charges are double dipping? Lets say I donate a $1 (100%). The creator only gets 95c (95%) with 5c going to Patreon. Those surcharges add 35c (flat fee) + 2.9c (2.9%). So where do those money go to? If to Patreon then its cut is much higher than 5%.

Anonymous

Do you really think Patreon made these changes without it benefiting them somehow? Patreon isn't the benevolent entity everyone has made them out to be. They're just another corporation.

Anonymous

I only have $5 to pledge a month to spread across 5 creators. I've now had to drop 2 of them to continue pledging to Patreon. I feel guilty about that decision, but I can't pledge more money than I already have budgeted out toward this form of entertainment. You're 1 of the 3 creators I'm sticking with, Jim.

Anonymous

As a Patreon who pledges 7 different $1-$2 a month pledges, I'm seriously going to be out of pocket if Patreon charges me 2.9% and 35c PER PLEDGE. That's an extra $2.45 just is 35c charges. I really do not want to stop supporting any of the people on here but I may have to.

Anonymous

Plus the 20% VAT presumably on top of all the extra charges

shadowscribble

I don't know the numbers of how many pull back their support to help fund their Christmases, but it just occurred there may be an air of sleeze to the timing.

Anonymous

WHAAAAAAAT? I allocate a tiny amount to help creators and it comes out to an even number that's easy to deal with.. This will just throw off my BS budgeting!

Anonymous

Question? is the 2.9% and the 35c taken on all my patreon bill or is it per person/organization i'm supporting? i support 10 people/organizations at $1 if its the second option that is an extra $3.79. i also pay 20% vat on my bill aready.

Ronnie

heh i have had 4 mails with information from creators, but no information email form Patreon themselvs....this is unaccepteble, no matter what you feel about the change....which btw just forced me to drop about half the creators i supported...lucky for you Jim i prioritise you highly :)....but that still sucks ass

Anonymous

From the Help Center: Patreon reduces processing fees by batching charges at the beginning of each month. For example, if a patron is paying more than one creator each month, Patreon only charges the patron once for all of the pledges. This reduces processing fees by reducing the total number of transactions, and the lower fee is split among the creators. ------ Unfortunately, for per-post payments (like MoS), this means that the fee is on every transaction.

Anonymous

Cost of doing business. I don't know any organization (non profit or otherwise) that doesn't pass the buck on these fees. I hope it won't negatively effect what you do. I don't expect to donate any less to my Patrons over this. This change doesn't surprise me with a lot of Youtube folks turning to Patreon as their funding source these days.

Anonymous

I didn't drop any pledges entirely but I diminished half of them to compensate for increased fees. 35c per pledge or post is too high of the surcharge: my bank doesn't charge me as highly per transaction and banks are already very greedy places.

Anonymous

Right. I'm not lowering pledges over it, I'm only slightly upset because I like round numbers xD

Nicole Barovic

This may get more money out of each individual pledge, but it will definitely lower the number of pledges per patron (and patrons in general!), so I also see this as a shitty business decision even pragmatically on Patreon's part!

Anonymous

I'm going to see what happens as the month goes on and see how Patreon responds, but if nothing changes, I might have to drop a few patrons. If you're on a fixed income, even a few extra bucks can mess you up in a financial way.

Anonymous

That's so very fucked :(

Anonymous

This is rather strange because here in Switzerland VISA is very strict about not billing customers any VISA transaction fees. We can just fill out a form and VISA will "refund" those transaction fees. If this happens often enough VISA will then slap the hands of the business that does this kind of crap. - If it is worth for less than a dollar is a different topic.

Anonymous

Apparently it was "field tested" and patrons were "on board" with the change. I'm yet to meet someone who was actually on board with it. I guess we'll just have to see how it goes. Though as a creator there's really no joy in asking for $1 from patrons and knowing they're actually being charged $1.60... Just a few days ago I decided to employ the J. Sterling $1 only tier method... and they announced this change the next day. F****ng typical!! :P

Anonymous

Okay, well from what I've read it doesn't look like Patreon will be rolling this back, so I'm cancelling everything on Patreon. If they change their mind I'll repledge. So long, and thanks for all the fish.

Anonymous

Jim is the only person I support, so it won't change much for me. I might just go ahead and increase the amount that I pledge each month though, because I can't stand shit like this.

Anonymous

First I have heard of this. No email from patreon

Sax Dragon

Didn't even think of that as a dilmema some patrons would face at the time...thanks for that

Anonymous

Thanks for letting us know Jim, I am one of those $1 people you mention. I have received nothing from Patreon itself so therefore appreciate the heads-up. Also due to this sincere move on your behalf i'm more inclined to up my pledge next month. I've followed you since the Destructoid days and your openness &amp; honesty is greatly appreciated in these corporate money grabbing times.

Simone Spinozzi

I hope the flat fee is per transaction. Not per patronage. Makes sense as they are the same rates banks apply. Could creators inquire on how it works? Because, yes per patronage it is a steep increase but per transaction not so much. I support 100+ creators with an average a bit above 5 dollars... I suppose that a 2.9% increase is not as damaging as a 2.9%+0.35 per single donation.

Anonymous

This does indeed suck the big one but my pledge to you will not change I only wish I could afford to give more and if I get my pay rise in Jan I will be doing just that.

Anonymous

I may have to reconsider patreon as well. Sadly these creators still need to eat (in some cases). Consider paypal at least as a replacement. It is not the creators fault.

Anonymous

This is the first I've heard of this, and I have to say that notes like this are why I have always supported you. You are one of the few who actually care about consumers, even if it costs you. Thank God for you!

Anonymous

Is there an official statement? This really sucks, I just started donating because I don't have that much money to spare, but I'd like to support creators such as you. Considering lots of people donate 1$, the flat fee is just a shit move on Patreon's side. Now this is a almost 40% percent increase in payment of which the creator's receive very little. And it's only my second month on Patreon. Fuck Patreon.

Anonymous

Is Patreon addressing this? Or are they just ignoring everyone's concerns? Don't worry Jim, I'd never dump you. You make me laugh.

Anonymous

Same here. I even looked through past emails from Patreon and couldn't find anything about this.

Anonymous

Thanks for being open about this Jim - I haven't received any notification from Patreon and wouldn't have known if it wasn't for your post. It looks like they're applying these fees per pledge, so folks who support lots of creators are going to be hurt the most by this - if you support 10 creators at $1 each then you'll be paying $13.79 per month.

Anonymous

THANK YOU for altering us to this. I have much to consider. I'm sure I will continue with you, but I will have to reconsider some of the other folks. SAD!

Anonymous

Patreon's decision-making process is always completely mystifying to me. It's like they stumbled onto a good thing by accident and are bound and determined to stumble off it again.

Anonymous

I also haven't heard anything about this. Thanks for letting us know!

Anonymous

A lot of this websites recent decisions are questionable at best. Your transparency is as always a breath of fresh air here on the internet, even when the decision isn’t one you have made. I’m going to definitely keep up my pledge, and thank god for you, Jim.

Anonymous

I am also one of those $1 contributors. I likewise heard nothing about this from Patreon at any point. I will be increasing my pledge to $2 as a result of this shit move from Patreon, Keep up the great work, Jim. Wish I could afford more.

Anonymous

I started out pledging higher but have since started studying, which limited my spending capacity but since I am hellbent on supporting doing the right thing, I made my pledge a 1$. Personally, I don't have an issue with their decision, though I'm not exactly waving my arms about.

Anonymous

So. How do I contact Patreon and ask to opt out of their patreon, because they brag about their three methods, and this sounds like #3, Payout Fees. I haven't gotten the email regarding this, but their break down of that says we're paying .25 cents for every transaction, OR (depending on if this is via paypal or stripe) the option of being charged 1%. But that's for US, so non-US it's either: 0.25, or 1% as an option using pay pal, or 3% using payoneer. am I missing something while reading the 'how do you calculate fees' page regarding how it sounds as though you're being taxed using two methods, or, and I'm guessing this is the case: they haven't updated the page to redefine their garbage change that basically fucks fans (and content creators) over who maybe only have a dollar to spare. suddenly anyone paying 1 dollar essentially is paying 35% over to patreon. That is such GARBAGE.

Anonymous

If i go to edit a pledge, it says i will be charged $1 + $0.20 VAT on the 1/1/18. No mention of any new charges. If they charge more than this, that is an outright lie.

Anonymous

I'm a bit confused: this means that whatever I pledge I'll be paying ($X * 1.029)+$0.35? That's... odd. I'm not too bothered by it personally I guess but it is odd and I can see how it could impact others.

Nilaru

Anyone know why i'm being charged VAT when I'm not an EU citizen, and neither is Jim?

Anonymous

It means if all of Jim's pledges are $1 pledges Patreon makes itself Jim's 40% manager (and for what? WHAT DOES IT DO?) and Jim should get the F away from Patreon... where is the dignity in giving it 40% of his pre-tax income coming from it. There is none. (It also means the amount of money spent is $40% more than the reported figure--so really, it's not 95% of pledges, it's more like 55% of the money spent... like a really egregious charity.)

TheNetsrac

Same here and no mail from Patreon about the change. My financial situation is rather meh , so this change makes a big difference to me. I had to lower/drop a couple of pledges, because of this :-( I will keep supporting you Jim, even if it means I can only afford something to eat every other day....ok maybe not that bad. Anyway, I love you Jim...and I mean ALL of you ;-) Thank you for telling me/us about these changes. Thank god for you, my liege

Anonymous

@Jim (Dear, Jim) I wish you would get Patreon on the record of what value they bring to the table: Why do they exist? Because I thought it was to take my (say) 20 $1 pledges and convert them into a $20 banking transaction... but now they take them and want to charge the equivalent of a bank transaction for every $1, and so they don't seem to have an economic purpose. The Twitter conversation doesn't appear to grasp this. And I want to know what if any value Patreon is to me if not this. I would love to give hundreds of $1 pledges, but I don't understand why to give large pledges, when "creators" can make lots of money because we live on a planet with lots of people. This $1 times thousands or millions of people is new economics. We want new economics, not old gatekeepers. FOR THE RECORD: I made a Community post with this question when these letters went out yesterday.

Simone Spinozzi

Since the 2.9%+0.35 are standard bank fees, can anybody check if it is going to be "per pledge" or "per transaction"? Because at the end of the month is just a single transaction. I have the idea that it is going to be "per transaction" in order to enable the "pay upfront" feature to every creator. It would make sense.

Anonymous

This is how things work currently. EDITED: They're not adding a banking fee. Most likely that will not change. They are adding a cash grab fee. Possibly to make fast money before going down in flames.

Anonymous

It's per pledge. "A new service fee of 2.9% + $0.35 will be paid by patrons for each individual pledge starting on December 18th. This restructuring allows creators to take home a greater portion of their earnings, which is core to our mission of getting creators paid." <a href="https://patreon.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005631963" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://patreon.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005631963</a> + whatever tax is appropriate in your country on top of that.

Anonymous

People don't seem to grasp what this means in general. What does Patreon do for you that is worth almost $0.40 per $1 pledge? If you pledge to 100 "creators" you are giving Patreon $40. Pledging $100 to one party is not a revolutionary business model. Pledging $1 to 100 parties IS.

Anonymous

I totally agree with you. Patreon is obsolete, if they take $0.35 per pledge. They were meant to reduce transaction costs for small micro-transactions - instead they want to trick us and pocket the fees themselves.

Anonymous

This has nothing to do with banking fees. This seems like a "conservative" mind's reaction to the situation. Patreon just believes its social network warrants taking $40 from 100 $1 pledges. As if it's that valuable.

Anonymous

Don't fall for this trick. The change was not made to help the creators, it was made because Patreon is greedy. They take $0.35 per pledge, but only pay that fee once to Paypal and the credit card companies. So they earn $0.35 for every additional creator you support. They hope that we still want to support the creators and because it's only a few $ per user we will accept it - but creators should look for alternatives. It's not good that users have to pay $1.38 + tax to give creators $0.95. Patreon should help to reduce costs of micro-transactions - instead they try to make additional profit by this trick. They take 31% fees for $1 pledges now! You should cancel at least all $1 / $2 pledges immediately to make them realize their mistake!

Anonymous

What is your country set to in your profile? <a href="https://www.patreon.com/settings/profile">https://www.patreon.com/settings/profile</a> - I've always assumed it's worked out from that.

RaptorBricks

I hadn't received anything about this, thanks for letting us know.

Anonymous

Holy cow folks no matter who you go thru whether its Paypal or its Swipe (both process payments for Patreon by the way) 2.9% and .35 per transaction are THEIR FEES. These are NOT Patreon's fees! Patreon was taking the these fees out after the fact now we're expected to pay them up front its that simple.

Anonymous

It's a non-banking fee. A social-network fee that works out to $40 if you pledge $1 to 100 "creators." You heard that right.

Anonymous

I've watched it closely and haven't seen anything out of Patreon. Jim should put on his investigator hat.

Anonymous

Thanks for the transparency, didn't read about the 35 cent extra charge as well. I may have to review what I'm giving...

Anonymous

Patreon's fee is per pledge, not per transaction. "A new service fee of 2.9% + $0.35 will be paid by patrons for each individual pledge starting on December 18th. This restructuring allows creators to take home a greater portion of their earnings, which is core to our mission of getting creators paid." <a href="https://patreon.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005631963" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://patreon.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005631963</a> + whatever tax is appropriate in your country on top of that.

Anonymous

Whether this is right or not once again it points to Jim's 100% honesty.

Jason Youngberg

Thanks for letting us know. Seems like all those who I patreon are sending out similar messages. I'm not changing my pledge. I already cleared out a few creators I lost interest in supporting. You're worth the extra 50 cents.

Anonymous

From Patreon's article: "Q: Do I have to pay this new service fee? A: We have sent advanced notice so that you and all patrons have an opportunity to cancel your pledge if you no longer wish to continue your membership with the updated service fee." Having received no such 'advanced notice', it's not really on that I'm hearing about this first from Jim Sterling and Bob Chipman as opposed to, say... Patreon. Not exactly a well-organised initiative.

Anonymous

I just upped my pledge by a buck fifty to help a little with lost Patrons. You're worth it; it's a shame Patreon has decided to risk its customer base by pissing off THEIR patron base. Doesn't matter what company it is; some of the money is never good enough.

Anonymous

Well I took to Twitter with a sternly worded tweet. Hopefully enough bad press from this causes them to back pedal

Anonymous

Didn't get such an "advanced" notice either. Nothing, not even in the spam folder. What a disgrace. Seems i will have to reconsider if and how i will use this platform not only because of the change of payment terms, but also in light of its utter incompetence in communicating said change.

ShadyCrafts

To put it in perspective: $1 of patronage now costs me $1.66 after fees and VAT, compared to $1.20 with only VAT before. I'm someone who supports a lot of creators at low tiers. I always thought that that was the best use of my money, instead of spending it all on only a couple of people, giving a little to many. Patrons like me will be hit the hardest with these changes, and might have to drop creators they would have previously supported. To turn this into concrete numbers, I am currently supporting 35 creators and last month paid a total of $72 (excluding a 20% VAT which brings the total to $86). After the change, for the exact same support, I would be paying an additional $15 or so, bringing my total to over $100 a month. To pay the same, I'd need to drop around 12 creators that I'm supporting at the $1 level. This seems moronic. I literally have to stop supporting a third of the people I'm currently supporting. Because it's per-creator, this new tax very much pushes people into only supporting a few creators. My guess is that a lot of the small creators would rather they were getting that $0.85 on the dollar, instead of having people stop supporting them entirely.

ShadyCrafts

Also, someone did the math, and this change is ENTIRELY for Patreon's benefit: <a href="http://www.pretty-terrible.com/funny-money-patreon-style/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://www.pretty-terrible.com/funny-money-patreon-style/</a>

Crissa Kentavr

It’s not Patreon’s fault that credit processing is scum. Patreon is being charged many times more than say GameStop, even though they only run transactions once a month. There is a scam here and it’s the credit card company.

ShadyCrafts

Not really: <a href="http://www.pretty-terrible.com/funny-money-patreon-style/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://www.pretty-terrible.com/funny-money-patreon-style/</a> Because Patreon charges you for every creator you support, but pays only one transaction fee. Ie, because I support 35 people Patreon charges me 35 fees, but then pays only one fee to Paypal.

Anonymous

Thought I posted this hours ago, but I can't find it, so here it is (again, maybe. If so, sorry): For those who don't want to do math, I sent this to Patreon's support. I am curious how you justify the new changes being made to the fee structure. Taking this month as an example, I paid USD$18: $14 across 6 monthly pledges and $4 to one creator as 4 $1 per creation pledge. Under the current system, the fees for my payment are $0.642. Adding in Patreon's cut of 5%, or $0.4, my creators take home (less potential fees for transferring money to a new account) 18 - 0.642 - 0.4 = $16.96 or 94% of my pledged funds. Under the proposed system, my fees for this month would have been $4.022. In this case, I would pay $22.02, of which my creators would see 22.02 - 4.022 - 0.4 = $17.60 or 80% of my pledged funds. Their collective take home increases by $0.64, or 4% of the current $16.96, while the are suddenly getting 14% less of what I'm paying. I will be posting this as a response to every creator I pledge to who posts about the changes, for those who don't want to do the math themselves. Please respond quickly, as I don't want to punish creators for what I see as your mistake.

Anonymous

Wow, this really screws people with multiple small pledges. Since the Youtube Adpocalypse, I've started pledging funds to a lot of my favorite youtubers. I could understand a 2.9% fee for a single combined monthly transaction, but 2.9% per pledge +0.35 adds up pretty damned quickly. 13 one dollar pledges works out to almost $18 ( $1.029 + .35 x 13 = $17.93). That's roughly 28% more per month.

John Trauger

Hi, I come to you via creator Jackie Wohlenhaus, who linked to this. The questions I want to ask are: Is this the same rate Patreon has charged creators? Did Patreon bundle a rate increase into the deal? Are they giving themselves a second revenue stream at the same time? I'll pay my creators' processing fees, but I'd be a little less happy with double-dipping.

Anonymous

This is an EA move by Patreon. I hope Jim will criticize them as much as he does with EA - but it will be a conscience conflict, because understandably he doesn't want to lose the Patreon money.

FritzTheWolf

Wow, that's actually pretty shitty.

zosa

i will say this in the most literal and express fashion that i can explain things through the english language; i cannot afford to be a patron anymore. to cover the cost of paying my 1-3usd per a month i have to cut out two people i pledge to. as an artist i make well under wage(currently 1/7th the legal minimum). i cannot afford the fee and am being incentivized to reduce even those that are left so as not to pay the extra fees as well for having multiple pledges v_____v

Anonymous

Well.. D.rip sounds like a good alternative. I don't care about additional 30-40c but this is a blatant money grab and I don't like when such crap is sold as "for customer's/creator's benefit".

Joshua Chap

I am on a very fixed budget here, and if things don't pan out well next month, I likely will have to drop nearly half the patrons I support on here because of this.

Anonymous

Arf... Sorry, but I will have to stop pledging :( But I am sure you will find a better platform soon, and I will happily pledge again ! Sad to leave, but this is a truly unfair and unethical move by Patreon...

Anonymous

Patreon's website always drops a large number of comments. There's endless levels of ineptitude, which only raises the question, what is it exactly that makes Patreon so valuable to take 40% of its "creators" income in the first place. (Even if it was very good at what it does, the current 5% is an incredibly high cut compared to their clients creative output.)

Anonymous

Maybe wait and see, since the next billing period (when this goes into effect) is supposed to be on the 18th.

Anonymous

Yeah, this is a bad move, and if they lose as many Patrons site-wide as is feared, they'll reverse it next month once people start dropping pledges after the upcoming January surprise. FWIW I'm sticking with all my pledges, including my $1 ones, but this will give me pause before committing to any further $1 or $2 contributions...

Anonymous

Actually it's worse than per pledge - if the creator has a “per-thing” payment schedule, such as TekThing which has a weekly episode and it's a per episode pledge, if they have 4 episode releases in a month, there is a fee for each of those episodes.

Anonymous

When I first read it (after I read it twice just to understand it) I thought it sounded pretty good, even fees, higher cut for Creators. But this $1 situation is a real bitter pill and I don't even understand why they're removing the current benefit of supporting multiple creators (lower fee % if you're supporting more since you're only fee'd once). Hope they go back on this, already lost two pledges today...

zosa

right now you are slated to be the only creator i will be able to support. i had to send out three other messages(a lawyer, a game develope and a stock resource) letting them know that i could no longer afford to support them because the fees will now be a collective 1/4th of the total cost of supporting them and i already have a hard time making what i pay already each month

Joshua Chap

trust me creators on this platform are not happy at all about this one bit. There has been no one that I follow or support on here that is happy about this and are looking for alternatives.

Trevor Bond

I may have to edit or remove some pledges, but Jim isn't going to be one of them. To the bitter end I say! But they're going to lose more than they will gain, I'm afraid to say.

Anonymous

All I want to say is that I'm staying.

Anonymous

I've thought a bit about this. At least for now, I'm not going to punish the creators by canceling my existing pledges; I can afford the extra $3.30 a month, though I'd prefer that $3 go to creators instead. (There might be one exception, because I haven't heard how this change affects per-creation pledges: if I pledge $1 per creation and you release 5 creations in a month, is that one $5 pledge or five $1 pledges? If it's the latter then that's REALLY going to screw those creators.) But it will make me think twice about supporting new creators, which is a bad thing.

Kaz Redclaw

I support 80 creators per month, some of which are per-post. Patreon will be charging me over $30 per month in processing fees under their new plan, while the credit card processors will only be charging them $3-5 for that transaction. I wouldn't mind if they were just passing the credit card processing fees over, but charging a separate $0.35 fee for every creator and every post is just against the entire point of a microtransaction site.

Anonymous

I pledge $1 a month to 4 people and $1 per video to 1. Say $5 per month. Old system: I pay $6 consisting of $1 VAT, ~$0.50 to Patreon and ~$4.50 to the creators. New system: I pay $8.28 consisting of $1.38 VAT, $2.15 to Patreon and $4.75 to the creators. Explain again how this helps creators?

Anonymous

this won't help creators, they will see a short term boost before a drop in a couple months as many smaller pledges stop. This new system just means that i have gone through my pledges and cancelled most of my $1-$5 pledges as I can't afford the changes. they have been short-sighted at best, and greedy at worst.

Anonymous

I'm taking the same approach here as I'm taking with companies that produce games with loot boxes. Both them and Patreon are being greedy bastards, so I stop supporting them. Jim, if there's some other way to support your work, let us know somehow. I will jump on any other way, but for now I'm dropping Patreon entirely. It's sad to see creators being in the same position that publishers are putting the game developers in.

Sean Riley

I'm currently a freeloading bastard on your Patreon (sorry, things got tight for a while and I didn't come back in when they got better) but please let us know if you plan to shift to warmer waters. I'd be keen to come back in on another site.

Anonymous

Why can't you afford the changes for pledges larger than $1.40? Your comment makes it sound like you cancel pledges because of the additional financial burden, and not in protest or due to being disappointed with Patreon. For any pledge larger than $1.40 you (and everybody else) can afford the change without paying more. Just adjust each pledge to (X - 0.35) / 1.029, with X being the former amount you pledged. This should keep you paying exactly the same as before. It's just that the creators get less this way, but for them that's still better than nothing. Still, at the end of the day it is of course your decision what you do with your money. I don't intend to give you recommendations what you should or should not do with your money. It just looked odd to me that you said you cancelled most of your pledges up to $5 because you couldn't afford the changes...

Kaz Redclaw

Ah, I see what they're doing. They're getting rid of the pay once per month model and doing a separate charge for every creator's payment, scattered throughout the month. That's... Awful.

Kraken

As quickly as new Internet markets emerge, early adopters have to go and show why de facto monopolies are a bad thing... I'm in the privileged situation where a couple of bucks more a month isn't going to chase me away, but I appreciate being forthright about the change, Jim. Hopefully in the long run wiser heads will prevail.

Joshua Chap

Https://blog.patreon.com/updating-patreons-fee-structure/ here is an update for all of you on these fees. Pretty much shit ain't broken, lets move on, and don't address the actual problems with this update.

Anonymous

It makes sense, but it doesn't make sense why the fee isn't a synchronization-fee that pro-rates a new pledge until it can be billed at the regular time of the month, in the next cycle. (EDITED: I want to say something smells fishy, but if the Update is accurate, Patreon doesn't benefit... the banking services do. Maybe Patreon is a front. AND Why not just do want Sony and Microsoft do for their console stores... in-store credit.) I frankly don't want to see multiple random charges in my bank statement. Never mind that charging $1 at a time is ridiculous... and WHAT I REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND is nothing ANYONE does on Patreon (really) is anything more valuable than $1/mo. $1 is completely the value of what Jim brings to your life each month. If I was going to give Jim $2 I might as well double the money I give to Netflix for no reason while I'm at it. More than $1 only makes sense for people accustomed to spending $15 on a muffin every day... because nothing makes sense in that world.

Anonymous

I think the changes are a definitely a step in the wrong direction on Patreon's part, but I still love your independent journalist thing, and think your content is great, so I personally still want to keep supporting you, even if you get less of my pledge. Keep it up, and f#@k Konami :)

Anonymous

For the alleged months and months of research they dd and alleged opinions that they collected from patrons - I never heard a peep from them that this new fee structure was coming and I was never offered any research survey to participate in. For all the copious explanations that they gave - for ME as a dedicated patron, it boils down to this, and I KNOW that I'm not alone in this opinion. I only have so much money to pledge each month. If Patreon is suddenly going to impose a fee structure that suddenly doubles my cost of patronage via processing fees, my only recourse is to give less money (and in turn have my hand forced to drop patronage for some content creators at the $1 level entirely). How could Patreon NOT see that coming? Content creators are going to lose a lot of $1 level patronage, which, I assume, for a lot of creators makes up the bulk of their income.

Anonymous

This is a cash grab on Patreon's part, I'm cancelling some of my pledges in response. This one stays for now, but if you find a less money hungry Patreon alternative set one up and I'll jump (7.9% + 0.35 a pledge is a huge increase from even what they're claiming). I've worked with payment processing systems and they're running one payment transaction/month for all your pledges. They're not getting charged per pledge. A per-pledge fee is a huge cash grab that doesn't have any reason to exist.

Anonymous

There's no excuse for a patron having to figure a percentage of anything, it needs to come off the back end. Most of my donations are a dollar a month and that means over a 37% increase in my pledges without my permission. I would suggest creators see if maybe they can use another service/take donations directly until Patreon sees that this is a terrible idea. Otherwise they will be losing a lot of pledges.

Anonymous

Dear creator: it pains me to say this, but I will be cancelling all my pledges with Patreon effective immediately, in protest of this unacceptable new fee system. Hopefully a drop in profit will make Patreon fix this quickly. I know this isn't fair to you, I will be watching your free posts and Youtube videos if you find another service or set up a way to donate to you directly. I'm more than willing to send a check to a P.O. box if it comes to that.

Anonymous

Reckon I’ll wait a bit before making a decision. Patreon at least seems fairly receptive to criticism. They’ve updated their blog once now.

Anonymous

I had over 10 $1 patreon pledges and today I deleted them all. I see it like this, we aren't charged until the end of the month. That means any of us can easily put our patronage back at the end of the December or come in January with a $2 pledge and then drop it down to $1 the following month. Removing your pledges is a good idea as it will force patreon to react, the potential for payment is already logged in the system as lost. Like what is happening to EA at the moment, we need to vote with our wallets (credit cards) and push back against this. I messaged Patreon earlier saying that I hope they're happy taking their fees from me after I multiply that value by zero. "Inportant Updates Regarding Your Pledges", yeah they're gone now, hope you're happy with that Patreon. I'll get my money to the creators I support and Jim Sterling a different way, sending a rare Boglin to his house, buying a T-Shirt from his mech store. I'll think about that later. All that matters right now is that Patreon gets bad publicity and absolutely none of my money. I suggest all of you have a similiar approach, we must hurt Patreon for it's greed, or else this new system will become the new "normal". Hope the next Jimquisition is on this point, as it's going to affect a lot of game creating content creators on youtube. I foresee the backlash of videos to start appearing on youtube. The more the merrier. #FuckPatreon

Anonymous

Not to mention this will be on top of the VAT some of us already have added to every transaction (a $1 pledge is a $1.25 cost without all this added bs..)

Joelle Seguin

***Cross posted from other contributors, but relevant I believe. I disagree that this change was an attempt at a money grab on Patreon's part, I believe creators were likely complaining about the service fees being deducted from their monthly donations, and this is Patreon's response and attempt to be transparent. However, it's the completely wrong direction for the organization to go in. No matter what the reason, no matter the amount of transparency, and no matter the extenuating circumstances, a rate increase will always be seen by some as a "money grab", even if there are legitimate reasons for the increase. It's just human nature. It also externates the hassle of fees and percentages to the consumer, or in most cases, the donator, which in any structure, should be avoided. Like seriously, if you went to a store and were told you'd have to pay the extra 3 to 13.5 percent fee that credit cards add to a purchase, how would you feel? Ask your grandparents about that one. In the long run, everyone would be paying less because the overall price scheme wouldn't include the risk factor of those fees, but few people would use credit cards, which is why the credit card lobby made doing such a thing illegal. Also, it pushes a sense of guilt onto the creator's patrons. If the company were to reverse this decision and return to the old schemes, individuals would be left with the knowledge that there favourite contributer would be getting WAY less money for their work. In the current scheme, this guilt might manifest itself at the time of initial donation in the form of price anxiety. A person probably does not want to deal with the hassle of calculating fees or projecting what their overall contribution would be to several dozen creators. This might cause some to avoid donating all together. Finally, it will likely be presented in such a way that will make it feel like your donation is being taxed. No one likes paying more than the sticker price for anything, but have you ever wondered why, in most jurisdictions, taxes are not included in the retail price? This was because of the retail lobby. They wanted the "fault" for higher prices placed squarely on the head of the government, and convey the message, "you'd be paying less if not for the bloody bureaucrats". Which I believe is another angle Patreon is attempting. They're basically saying, "look, it's not our fault, your creators WOULD be getting more if not for paypal/the credit card companies". It's another externality, an attempt to offload something unpleasant or unwelcome on to another party. Fees are a necessary evil as they keep all participating members operating, though there can be arguments made over the exact amount these fees should be. In the end, this move will hurt everyone involved... except paypal and the credit companies as the amounts flowing through Patreon would be less than noticeable to them. Contributors may see some of their donations pulled, Patreon in turn will generate less revenue due to lower flow rates, and the donators who do stick around, will either be forced to pay out more, or calculate what they should donate to bring them back to the amount they feel is appropriate. I'd like to point out one last thing. In a vast majority of cases, those donating a dollar, are likely individuals on fixed incomes who really can't afford paying for entertainment, but do so anyway to support their favourite creator. One dollar in the grand scheme of things doesn't seem like much, but for someone who counts how much food they can buy in pennies, it's a hardship they are willing to suffer to encourage others to continue to producing the content they enjoy. This means, that because of this scheme, they'll have to buy 30% less food to support those contributers. I'd also like to point out that telling these people not to donate if it is a hardship, and to enjoy the free content that is produced, disempowers them, and effectively shuts them out of the community. In my opinion, if contributors wanted to protest this change, they'd offer a 50 cent rewards level as a way of saying, "f you" to the change. P.S. YAY! I got to use my economics degree that I've used like 3 times in my life!

Simone Spinozzi

ok. So... i just read a blog post. And, as i suspected, this pledge move on Patreon is just a move to make "payments upfront" possible. "Never explain with malice what simple idiocy can explain it." in this case patreon thought that since patrons would want their pledge to last "a month"... :facepalm: they are splitting the payment process into micropayments so, when i said that the "per transaction fee" was identical... apparently i was right, i just did not think that the people at patreon would be as idiotic as to think that people could not hold it together and wait the right moment before pledging or that they could not accept that pledging near the end of a period was going to be detrimental. Basically they are covering their asses for a problem that is not there because it happens too few times and in the meantime they are making life impossible for everybody :facepalm: They think that if people were to be free to pledge at any moment they would pledge more often. :facepalm: I think they think money grows on trees or something. People are more worried about wasting a lot of money very often than "donating to a cause" every now and then as was seen by people pledging at the last moment before collection. So by allowing the "month" to be flexible people will be continuously wasting a lot of money on collection fees. :facepalm: I'm facepalming so hard that i think i'll switch to :headdesk:ing in order to find something softer for my forehead

COR

This fee PER PLEDGE is utter bullshit, and I'm shocked they were charging creators per pledge to begin with. I saw the biggest reason Patreon exists was to perform bulk payments between supporters and artists, &amp; overcome paypals micro donation problem. All my Pledges should come out as ONE! transaction with my bank, and all creators are paid as ONE! transaction with their bank. Charging more than 1 fixed fee per month is ABSURD and money grubbing at it's worst. They should be ashamed! It may "only" be 35 cents, but that's 35 cents of extortion and fraudulent skimming and I won't participate. The right way to do it would've be to charge each supporter ONE fixed fee regardless of how many pledges they make each month. (with the % on top of that) FIX IT and I'll reinstate all my pledges (sorry artists, it's the only way)

Anonymous

I suspected this was up when reading the patreon blog, very deceptive the way they shrink the meter to show them taking less than before. I mostly pledge 1$ to a lot of youtubers and indie devs, so this results in me paying out nearly 40% more than before, I will be dropping nearly every single pledge because of this :( Very sad, some of those creators would not be viable if not for the 1$ tier, which now looks like a ripoff.

Anonymous

Patreon, please do not break our hearts. The entertainment industry is already a bucket of piss-stained cumrags. We don't want to see your like tossed in the pile.

Joshua Chap

and to Patron that probably an exceptable loss for them, and that is just sad.

Anonymous

In addition to Jim's nice post above, I like that he changed the description of the Rewards as well. I'm sticking with you, man!

Anonymous

After looking at this more in depth, even though I said I was going to increase my pledge to $2 to make up for this, I now think I am completely done with Patreon. Jim, do you have a P.O. box or something? I would happily send you a check for $25 once per year, or something along those lines. I don't want to stop supporting you, Jim, but I cannot in good conscience support this move by Patreon.

Anonymous

So, if this isn't a direct cash grab by Patreon, then it is a cash grab by banks/cc processors. Something smells rotten. I have to believe there is some cash moving from these banks/cc processors into Patreon's coffers in exchange for moving to this new anti-patron and anti-creator funding system. It would be absolutely stupid for them to move this new bone-headed model otherwise.

Anonymous

It was never per-pledge that I know of. (This doesn't make any sense, nor the reaction...there's a scandal here.) It was a 5% finders fee off of gross earnings. That still exists in the proposal. (None of this makes any sense. Anyone would think of the obvious solutions, and anyone would have a predictable reaction to the universally bewildered and common-sensical response happening on Twitter.)

Anonymous

I have written up my thoughts on the matter as an open letter to Patreon; it came out a bit long.. <a href="https://kav2k.github.io/patreon_letter/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://kav2k.github.io/patreon_letter/</a>

Anonymous

Jim, I enjoy your content. I appreciate the way you've monetized and attack the the funding models. You are by far one of my most recommended channels when it comes to gaming journalism. I would LOVE to continue supporting you and think you should give MakerSupport a quick look. Politically you and I disagree, and MakerSupport has been spawned from the individuals on the right that have been demonetized. Either way, the platform itself is neutral and is strictly about supporting creators without a political bias. You will notice it's mostly empty as it's incredibly new, and the largest creators are right leaning channels. Still, it would be nice to see you join and secure the platform as something other than an echo chamber or Right Patreon. Also, the fees are much nicer. I've already cut back funding on here and will likely continue to do so. This has nothing to do with you (I'm dropping Dave Rubin and Philip Defranco too) but everything to do with Patreon. Hopefully there will be other ways (like MakerSupport) to allow us to support you guys again. Best of Luck.

Anonymous

I'll say this - I work for a payment processor/transaction company, and it's no coincidence that my industry is raising transaction rates by 3% on transactions that are less than $50 on merchants all over the Internet the same time that Patreon is raising fees on supporters. However, shame on Patreon for not reacting to this in advance. My company and others let Internet merchants/vendors know about this change back in AUGUST, and most of them have adapted to absorbing the cost so their customers don't have to suffer paying more. I think Patreon planned poorly and are now telling a half-truth.

Anonymous

Whether or not Patreon is being malicious with this move is ultimately irrelevant I think, I can't pay thirty cents on the dollar. Is this year I buy a Jimquisition shirt and throw Patreon to the birds after two years? This sucks

Anonymous

This is the only patreon that I support, so for me it means i'm paying about $5 more a year. I can afford that, so whatever. There are people, however, who support a lot of patreons. Like a lot. For those people this is a big deal. Someone backing 30 patreons at $1 a month was paying $360 a year. Now they are paying $496 a year. That is a big difference. This new policy is just begging people to pull back on who they support.

Anonymous

I'm from Poland and I'm already paying the VAT for each transaction, so I suport 6 patrons here and I pay 1$ or 2$ and at the end it's almost 10$, now I wonder how much will be this time, after that I will have to choose which ones I'll still support and from whom I will have to withdraw, which I wish I wouldn't have to do it, cos it's the smallest number people I can and I want to support.

Squirrel Sword

This is a terrible thing, but I have been curious of the long term viability of Patreon as a company for a while now. While this does suck, maybe it's necessary so that Patreon can continue to exist at all, as the alternative would be to return entirely to adds, sponsorship, and corporate meddling. I don't know, I'm no financier, but I feel like there may be more to this than simple greed.

Anonymous

Please please do let us know if you start accepting funds on any alternative platforms. I’d love to keep supporting your work if possible but Patreon will be unsustainable for me after these changes.

Anonymous

Jim, have you seen this? <a href="https://twitter.com/wombatoverlord/status/938863660289708037/photo/1" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://twitter.com/wombatoverlord/status/938863660289708037/photo/1</a> someone actually did a chart to show the actual effects of this change and cut through Patreon's BS and how they are labeling this change. Turns out that their claims that creators are getting a straight 95% cut doesn't add up when you factor in that they are increasing the pledge amounts to the backers so the $1 level, you might be getting 95 cents but when it's actually now a $1.38 level, you're only getting 68% of the money from that pledge...

Anonymous

older model: 800 * 1$ * 5% = 40$ (that's based on Dave's 5% -&gt; patreon fee, that's not constant afaik) patreon: 40$ creator: 760$ (- paypal, credit card... costs) contributors: -800$ new model: 800 * (1$ * 2.9% + 0.35$) = 303.2$ patreon: 303.2$ creator: ¿800$? probably less again due to fees and whatnot. contributors: -1103.2$

Anonymous

Sourced from dgo85 on youtube.. sorry it got clipped. He did the math on that.

Anonymous

It's a small consolation, but I won't be reducing any of my pledges in light of the recent changes. I feel for those patrons who perhaps donate to many other content creators and will feel the pinch that much more. It's not a very smart move for Patreon and I know that a few people have been hit hard by it already, with some patrons already cancelling their donations in advance. Until there's an alternative option to support you guys though, I guess I'm sticking around.

Anonymous

Yeah, it is just word games. Heck, if Patreon were in the mood of doing another asinine move like that, they could rephrase their 5% cut to not be part of the pledge, but "just" being some "additional fee" instead. Laws permitting, that would then allow them to claim that creators would get a full 100% of the pledge. Creators would be soo happy...

Holly Tenna Lotor

I've done the calculations and adjusted my pledge slightly to account for the fee. If Patreon doesn't change the way they're going, the second I hear you have an alternate donation service set up, I will be moving my pledge to you there.

Ariana

www.patreon.com/arianale

Anonymous

I've had to remove a few of my patreons, but through this all, I will continue to support you Jim! You provide a great service for the gaming community with your journalism, and my ongoing support is the very least I can do as a thank you.

Anonymous

I am cancelling mine as well for all of my donations period to punish patreon, even my ones over $1. If you move to another donation system or patreon fixes their payment system please let us know and I will start donating again. I am only sorry that this will hurt you but I feel I have to take a stand or Patreon will not change.

Anonymous

Unlikely, really. Why do I say that? Their new fee structure is basically a payment processing fee structure. The type of thing you could expect if you were going to accept credit card payments yourself. Except that Patreon charges patrons with aggregate monthly pledges as a single transaction. So they are going to be charged a single per-transaction fee plus percentage, but are then going to charge patrons a _per-pledge_ fee plus percentage. A straight percentage would not be an issue, nor would a single per-month fee on top of a percentage (which is what they are likely paying). What information we have thus far indicates they are inflating the fees - it does not appear to be a straight pass-through to the patron. A true pass-through would not be as poorly received, and would also have much less impact for anybody with multiple monthly pledges. Also, throughout all of this, don't forget that what Patreon is really charging is a 5% fee - that is what should be required to keep the business operating. As it was, they weren't eating the processing fees, either - it was just decreasing the amount that creators received. So now Patreon will still get their 5%, plus they can skim any additional inflated fees that are getting "passed on" to patrons that actually exceed the fees they are being charged by their payment processor(s).