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Patreon changing processing fees (Patreon)

Published:
2017-12-08 11:14:06
Edited:
2017-12-08 18:39:01
Imported:
2021-01

Content

Hey everyone,

It seems Patreon has decided to change the way it charges processing fees... (Starting from 18th December).

Currently, the way they do it is they charge 5% for their own fees, then the credit card companies charge processing fees that vary around 6.5%-9%. There's also a flat charge from paypal for transferring funds from Patreon to Paypal.  For simplicities sake, I just assume I get about 85% of each pledge.  

Now, they are planning to change the payment model so that they get rid of the credit card fees and charge 2.9% + $0.35 per transaction. Obviously this will make a bigger difference if we continue the per/transaction (chapter) model. (Three charges at $0.35 instead of just once)

I don't want to see you guys get hit with unnecessary charges, so I'm thinking about shifting to a per/month model instead of the per/chapter model. I'd aim to always release at least 2 chapters a month (accounting for the occasional illnesses/holiday/eBook editing), but more likely 3 as usual. 

Should I just convert the current pledge tiers so that they're on a per/month basis?

If so, what should I charge for the lowest tiers?
$1/month to get access to Patron posts
$3/month to get access to Patron posts + chapters?
$6/month to get access to Patron posts + chapters + artwork? 


Interested to hear your thoughts...

Tefler

P.S. For this month I'm aiming to release 2 chapters, one on about the 15th (before the processing changes come into effect) and one after (I'll try and aim for a second chapter before xmas). If I do switch to a per/month model, it would come into effect from January onwards.

The second eBook is done, I just need to wait for the cover art to be completed!

Comments

TexanInParis

Perhaps a bit late to comment, but I see you’re still charging per chapter. I’ve pledged $2 with a max of 3 per month, so I figure I’ll average about $5 each month to you. If switching to a monthly fee means lower fees for you, you should go for it. I would recommend $1 - access to Patreon posts, including Guest contributions. $3 - access to chapters; $5 - access to everything, including the cool graphics. I would sign up at $5, resulting in one transaction fee to you instead of two or three per month. Do what’s best for your pocketbook!

CJ Mora

First! (I know it's not the same as a chapter, but it's good enough for me!!) I prefer the per chapter model, myself. I tried monthly with another author and he ran into a dry spell where he wasn't as productive, so I felt cheated. (I'm sure it wasn't malicious, stuff happens, but you can't always help how you feel about things.) I figure the extra buck or two is fair.

Anonymous

I prefer a per chapter payment model. Not putting blame on you,but I've been burnt in the past with per month payment. I like the per chapter payment as I am paying content being delivered.

Anonymous

I think a flat rate is a good idea. I just hate the waiting between chapters lol. Keep up the good work.

DemonHunterCole

While I pay per chapter you publish, I still only pay at the first of the month, so that's only one $0.35 fee for me.

Tefler

I'm quite happy to leave it all the same and not make any changes. Just curious to hear everyone's thoughts. :-)

Anonymous

Eh, are you sure this is how it works? Even though we pay per chapter, it's only a single charge to my credit card, once every month.

Tefler
>>8756923

I could be wrong, but that was my impression from reading the Patreon announcement. I sent them a support ticket for clarification though.

Anonymous

I understand why you would want to change but I like the per chapter approach as well and would rather you increased the per chapter price to cover the additional fees.

Anonymous

I get a statement every month for the number of chapters released. Usually $4 to $6. I'd like to keep it that way.

Tefler
>>8756868

That's quite understandable. I'd prefer not to bother changing anything as it's more hassle and work for me to shift to a monthly model. :-)

Anonymous

I am ok with the proposed monthly change.

Tefler
>>8756945

No, I'm quite happy charging per chapter, I was just worried about you guys paying more processing charges to Patreon.

Anonymous

I am concerned that switching to a per-month payment system will put pressure on you to deliver content before it, or you, are ready. I know how much loyalty you have to your fan base and would hate for you to have to choose between quality and quantity. The per-chapter payments are perfect for reimbursing without the deadline. I feel that putting a timeline on creative pursuits is foolish, and personally I don't care about increased charges.

Anonymous

Tefler, maybe we can look at changing in February? Everyone can see what it is like in January...

Koa

I only get charged once per month on my card so it won’t make a difference to me in that regard - getting our 3sm fix only once a month, (gulp) now that’s torture! ;-). Whatever you decide is ultimately ok by me but I’d prefer you just leave it as is for the time being

Anonymous
>>8757234

I think it will. The charges are per pledge, not per credit card charge. They are called processing fees by that is dishonest, like $15 shipping and handling for a small item.

Anonymous

I thought that regardless of your pledge, they only charged once/month. Did they change this?

Kim Biel-Nielsen

Hi it works out that I will be paying USD 1.70 to provide you with USD 0.95. (1 USD pledge). Patreon fees + VAT. For a USD 2 pledge it comes to USD 3 etc... In average you write 2.5 chapters monthly. Which at my level comes to USD 7,50 monthly of which you get USD 4,75 eg USD 2,75 in taxes and fees. I would really prefer to pay USD 75 annually to your PayPal account and we would all be winners.

Tefler
>>8757374

Cutting out the middleman entirely would be ideal, but that would mean having my own website and some kind of way of handling everyone's payments...

Anonymous

I second Brad D. I think that the text what Patreon is going to do is a little fuzzy...

Kim Biel-Nielsen

Patreon writes: “Starting December 18th, we will apply a new service fee of 2.9% + $0.35 that patrons will pay for each individual pledge. This service fee helps keep Patreon up and running” It seams clear that the 2.9% + $0.35 fee will be added every time a pledge is paid and not once a month with the monthly invoice.

William Wallace

If you go for the $3 p/m you will lose money since you publish 2 chapters a month at a minimum of $2 a chapter, on the flip side is the $6 p/m will be to steep for some people, but in your interest I would go for the $6 p/m

Anonymous
>>8756894

I will keep my pledge to support you to maintain your current levels. I like the per chapter model but I'm okay with any change you need to make.

Anonymous

I agree with Brad D to wait and see what they actually do. Every time you publish I wind up paying twice anyway per chapter. That's my decision and I have no problem with that. First I am so anxious to go to the next chapter that I get the first draft and charge ahead knowing that I'm going to come back and get the "finished' chapter thus paying twice. Make no mistake, I am not complaining as I am a grown man and make that decision and live with it by choice. I will say that making the charge on every download seems nuts as it is done by computer. I could better understand if the charge was added to the actual billings once a month.

Anonymous
>>8756958

The $2 per chapter that you have will be $4.75 to $7.09.

Anonymous
>>8758022

That is why I think they are being dishonest. They charge your credit card once and pay the card processor once, they turn around and charge you the card processing fees several times.

Anonymous

Monthly, Quarterly, or Annual options make sense but that commits you to posting to Patreon for a longer time than would be best for plans.

Anonymous

I also agree with Brad D and Kim Asdi that the text of what Patreon is going to do is a little fuzzy.. on purpose.

Anonymous

I, like, Kim, would rather just pay you up front for the year. Can you make some type of charge that would be annual or something? Maybe you can just post your paypal account and you can have a list for all the people who've paid you annually?

GeyserGod

$1 patron access $3 patron access + Early Chapter access $5 previous + artwork $10 previous + Commission Suggestions/Polls $25 Previous + ??? $50 Previous + ???

GeyserGod
>>8758607

you could even do it so that those that want to do the higher levels have access to a Discord chat or something like that.

GeyserGod

right now it only does one a month too. it counts out how many chapters you post during the month and then does a lump charge at the end of the month.

GeyserGod

I get billed for all 7 of the Patreons that I am pledged to at the same time, 2 (including you) do it per chapter post and the rest are monthly payment.

Anonymous

$6 Quarterly would cost $6.53 and works out to an 11% overhead. Creating a new quality website is a big enough project that it would take a huge amount of time away from writing. I am not saying it will never happen but it needs new incentives to make it worthwhile. Games, video episodes, a database, an interactive map atlas etc. Not happening tomorrow.

Anonymous

I am not going to get many absolute agreement responses but I think that a Two Chapter per month production rate is a generous goal. If you get a third chapter, you can probably bank it a few days and post it first of next month. The Ebooks are going to take more attention as the chapters compiled are now double in size. Dropping new chapter expectations just for that reason. As more Ebooks are released they will build sales and the Patreon may become more club membership than supporting income. Christmas 2018 in your new home in the Algarve of Portugal!

Anonymous

I like the 3$ a month for chapters.

Anonymous

I like the 6 per month for chapters and artwork.

Anonymous

As u like. I am OK with monthly payments if like that more of my money arrives at yours and not at patreon

Evan

I'm not clear if it's for each individual pledge (per author, for example), or each individual accumulation based on monthly productivity (as is the case today), for a total summation of all amounts due based on monthly productivity. I agree that you should seek clarification with examples from Patreon support, but I also agree that it would probably be best not to change anything until February.

Anonymous

i think what ever way more money goes in your pocket,to us it still comes once a month.but how much is the diffence to us? for some of us are on a limted money,but i still support you for your a great writer keep up the great work,,,,,,,,,,,,

Anonymous

Agreed as per your proposed.

Anonymous

As it currently stands I'm being charged $6 once per month average based on how long it takes you to produce chapters, so I'm fine with switching to that as a flat rate.

Anonymous

per month sounds fine to me

Anonymous

I would really like to continue my support, but patreon's behaviour in this matter is completely unacceptable. Their virtue-signalling with money filched from patrons pockets is THEFT, plain and simple. They are holding YOU hostage to extort money.

Anonymous

As long as it doesn't impact what you take home, I'm okay with whatever. Just don't stop writing. lol.

Anonymous

Create multiple month advance billing options. This reduces the fraction lost in fixed transaction costs and shifts the risk associated with short term illness and other bits of life happening to patrons.

Anonymous

I am ok with the current model and if you change the model I will pick a tier that works for me. I am a member here to support the creators and if it makes a 5-10% change in your income I accept that. This is mostly about the credit card companies and their inconsistent fees which can be outrageous to the vendor. I don’t know the specific issues that caused this change, but I expect it has to do with that. A $.35 fee per transaction is quite different for a $1 patron than for a $5 patron as a percentage. The 2.9% is not outrageous I am a member of an organization that requires a 2.5% fee to be able to pay on PayPal (the exact amount of the service), but we offer another way to pay to not be charged.

Anonymous

Hi Tefler. Wait till February to make any change. That way we all will see how the new charge system affect us and be able to make an informed decision. Right now its too vague to know for sure. What i think is they will charge the fees to every chapters, but send the total amount once a month to our credit card. At the end of the day the change has to be fair to you. I have no problem paying more for the story plus artwork. As far as paying once a month or a year, i can see how people got burned like that as i got as well. But, you have showed us such a level of commitment that im not worried. As always keep up the great work !!

Anonymous

A assume that if Patreon is changing the way it processes fees, then reasonably soon we will have no choice. may as well get the change over with

Anonymous

The FAQ says that the fee is charged per post. so 2.9% +.35 per post. <a href="https://patreon.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005631963" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://patreon.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005631963</a>

Chris

per month sounds good to me.

Anonymous

per month sounds good, but if you can offer both it will offer existing patrons the option of staying with the same model as before. Most will likely migrate to the per month option, but some may want to stay on a per chapter basis to ensure you are suitably motivated to produce. :)

Anonymous

I dont have an issue with a per month as long as the chapters keep coming :) happy holidays telfer and everyone else :)

Anonymous

Patreon's fees are actually quite reasonable they use a busness bank account that 2.9% is quite a big portion of what the bank fees on there end are, for instance did you all know your direct deposits and pay roll from you employers cost them 1.5% in bank fees just to send you a pay check most people dont know that... You would have to charge more per chapter running it yourself as being the little guy the bank wont give to a good per transation rate Visa and master card are 2.5-4.5% depending on busness size or some offer a flat per month fee (interact at mcds cost $750 just to have it hooked up...) nothings free, bussness just dont tell you where all the money goes More than likely patrons is protecting there own proffit margine due to a change in the bank scale

Anonymous

Whatever nets you the most money Tef :) I am interested in supporting you not Patreon..... As such Monthy/yearly/net post +. Whichever you feel comfortable continuing your professional work and get the best pay for the minimum amount of work overhead. If you say monthly with ~3-4 a month. Make it 4 so your net is $1 per chapter net :) I think I can swing the $1 surcharge if its is only 2 chapters a month :) :) :)

Tony Bates

I'm kind of excited about the new format for Tefler, he will go from getting $0.85 on the dollar to $0.97! It will cost me a negligible amount, bout compounding it over the 2,500 pleadges it will make a big difference to him. My opinion would be to keep it the same. You already offer a monthly cap, right?

Tefler
>>8763986

I think you guys can set a monthly cap yourselves (probably under settings). :-)

Tefler
>>8762895

I just checked and it looks like you can either set up monthly pledges or per creation, not a mix unfortunately.

Anonymous

Works for me too. Thank you for offering, I could live with the 2nd tier even if there are only two chapters, but 3 make me happier.

Anonymous

Just let it ride Tefler. You can have the $6 allowance I get for lunch each month if you must. There's some decent dumpsters by my office. Anyways, it's worth it.

Tefler
>>8765717

:-( If I did switch to a monthly model, I'd try and keep it that someone pledging me $1 a chapter still pays the same but just on a monthly basis instead. Once these first few eBooks are out the way, then the later ones shouldn't require nearly as much editing effort, so 3 chapters/month would be the norm.

Anonymous

No worries, I have no issue with however you want to set up. Just let us know and the check will be in the mail.

Anonymous

I'm with Moore, rather just pay per chapter as I've seen the sort of pressure the other model can put on authors and artists. Rather see you be free to take your time and make sure things get done right.

donald abbott

I would prefer to see the per month option.

PLRus--Founding member of the TSM F5 club.

With the variable chapters a month, I would leave it as is. If you do monthly and then do 3 chapters a month rather than two you get cheated....if we set our support for 3 chapters and you do two, then we are shorted...not that it would bother me as I am supporting you as an aspiring author to the limit of my ability to do so. But I can see someone having an issue with paying say, $30 a month and it being $15 a chapter or $10.00 a chapter, depending. A conundrum for sure. The only way to make it really work for everyone is to commit to exactly 3 chapters a month or provide some other type of value for the months when things come up that prevent the 3rd chapter. I mean, things happen like family and illness. But that puts a lot of pressure on Tefler to produce, which really isn't fare to him. Creativity takes its own sweet time sometimes....and/or a mental break now and again prevents burnout.

Kim Biel-Nielsen

Assuming chapter 96 and 97 arrive this month,you will have posted chapters 83 - 97 = 15 chapters in six months = 2 1/2 chapters monthly. So setting a monthly pledge 2.5 the chapter pledge would be inline with the historic publication pace.

Tefler
>>8770003

I checked, but unfortunately you can only enter whole numbers for the pledge tiers. Eg 2 or 3, not 2.5. :-(

Anonymous

Tefler you do realize that we are behind you 100%. Which everyday is works best for you we will support. Especially if you roll out a chapter status update when you make the final choice.

D. D.

I dislike the changes to the fees made by Patreon, but I completely support you in making it a monthly charge. I like giving a Patron incentive to produce a specific number of their content per month, but not enough to just hand over money to Patreon for no reason. Even if you wouldn't change it I would just change my pledge to be a specific number given the first time you create content.

Robert Hibbs

I dislike paying unnecessary fees so I'm good going with a monthly fee as long as you end up with more of my money.

Anonymous

3 dollers per month is my vote

DemonHunterCole

Now that I've read the Q&amp;A, I appreciate that you are willing to switch it to a per month to avoid extra fees for all involved. I suggest you plan for two chapters a month with set release dates of 15th and end of the month. This would allow you to get a head start or give you more time in case you are sick, want to go away for the weekend, or want to work on more the ebooks.

Anonymous

I’d do the 6, I like the artwork.

Anonymous

I think $3 a month is fine.

James Glass

$3/mo is the same I'd be paying for $1/chapter give or take the odd month you post 2 or 4 (hopeful thinking) in a month. I'd have no issues with moving to that pricing.

Anonymous

$3 a month is fine with me keep up the good work Tefler

Anonymous

I like paying per chapter since there’s less pressure on the creator and I think it’s fairer for everyone. Wait until January so we can all see what the actual impact is. Patreon needs to make money too. They not only provide the space and transaction processing to let creators focus on their work, they also provide marketing to help new fans discover the work.

Tefler
>>8777696

Ultimately, I just want to focus on writing, but I don't want you guys feeling ripped off by Patreon, so I'm more than willing to change the payment setup to avoid that. :-)

Anonymous

I would rather continue with the per chapter model. I'd personally prefer to pay for a defined good (in this case a chapter= roughly 50 pages) than a vague quota per month. Switching to payment per month could also lead to people feeling entitled to complain more.

Anonymous

I don't have a lot of disposable income. I'm on your 2 dollar a chapter plan but put a cap on 2 x $2 a month. That's what I can afford (I support 4 authors) I prefer a 5 dollar tier (just because it makes for round numbers) 4 authors 5 bucks a month. $20. I don't care if you have a slow month, or take a vacation, or get sick and can't kick out a story. I may not be rich, but "I AM A PATRON OF LITERATURE" that doesn't mean I pay only when you produce. I mean in the classical sense that I support your continued effort to produce a quality product. I'm not putting a time frame on it. I'm not demanding a chapter a week, or twice a month, or once a month. There's an author I've supported for months, I don't expect his next book to be out until mid next year. But I know my donation will go towards keeping him supplied with coffee and electricity to run his computer. And when his book is released, I'll buy it at full price. Just like I do with yours. Because that's what a Patron does.

Tefler

Are you sure you haven't missed your own vocation as a writer William? That was a stirring speech! :-)

Stijn Van Hove

Mh, I'm pretty sure I set my current donations to cap at 5$/month even if you're still at chapter donations. That's the most I give to any of my supported patreons. Not that I can't afford more but I just have so many I support . Add all this to the already 21% fee I already pay that they charge me just because of my geographical location; and I'm close to ending up paying more in fees than in Pledges. With Patreon then on top deciding to censor several of my favourite creators through these past months (yes, I like non-con and sibling incest, so sue me, even if my kink is not their kink, not Patreon's place to judge). I am getting very close to just cancelling my Patreon account altogether.

Steven Allen

I support your writing as well as not having much disposable income. Disabled retired veterans are not exactly overpaid flush with excess cash. If you raise your tier for the Patron posts + chapters + artwork to the suggested $6 level I will have to either drop or lower one of my other Patreon support payments. I too support a couple of authors whose writing I enjoy regardless of the frequency that their product gets published. I am looking forward to the new ebook.

Anonymous

hey Tefler, just wanted to say you go with whatever works for you. we are all here because we value your work.some may fall away,myself included but for now a monthly charge would work for me if it nets you more $$.

Anonymous
>>8757663

William the $3 pledge is in place of the $1 pledge for just chapters the $6 pledge would be the $2 pledge with chapters and art that you were referring to

Tefler
>>8787441

Kink-shaming is bad, no judgements here. I read that Patreon had started getting funny about some of the content, which is disappointing (and a bit worrying!). Sorry you've been having a disappointing time with Patreon. :-(

Tefler
>>8788708

From my point of view, changing to a monthly model requires extra effort from me and I'm worried about upsetting existing patrons. However, I also don't want you guys to feel like you're getting ripped off in Patreon fees, so I'm willing to make the changes if necessary. Whatever happens, I don't want to end up with you guys paying more than you currently are, but finding a good balance point is tricky (with the 2 or 3 chapters a month I release). I think the best suggestion made above is to just wait and see in January how things turn out. I'll definitely create another post to discuss changes again before I do actually do anything! :-)

Anonymous

I think you should leave things as they are, because that gives individuals the option to choose for themselves. Those that want to donate per chapter (like me, I feel it helps encourage you to stick closer to three chapters per month rather than only two), can do so. While those that prefer to donate once a month (simpler for budgeting or whatever) can do so by upping their pledge while setting the pledge limit to once a month, there by simulating a monthly pledge.

Anonymous
>>8792864

Plus, besides the idea that a per content pledge helps encourage lots of content, I’d feel cheated paying for thee chapters in a monthly pledge on those months when there were only two chapters...

Anonymous

Does the fee apply to transactions or to pledges? the two are not the same. In this case we pledge per chapter and pay per month. Leaving things alone, the cost of a pledge will go up a bit for us and income will go up for Tefler.

Anonymous
>>8801527

Pledge, actually if you are in tier 1, 1$ you pay 38 Cents for every 1$, 3 chapters 1.14$ in fees. That disturbs me.

Big Dude

Tefler, you should create a chapter charge system that maximizes your payout; plain and simple. If a single monthly charge keeps more money for your babies then do it. We will agree to it since we're here because of your wonderful literary mind. Just my few farthings!

N3wb_4_l1f3

At this point you're the only person I'm backing anyways, so I'm not super concerned, however this article: <a href="https://www.pretty-terrible.com/funny-money-patreon-style/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.pretty-terrible.com/funny-money-patreon-style/</a> and it's follow-up: <a href="http://www.pretty-terrible.com/links-roundup-12-08-17/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://www.pretty-terrible.com/links-roundup-12-08-17/</a> both illustrate why this change is... problematic, to say the least.

Anonymous

Tefler, one solution around this new billing is to change what you define as a paid-post. As an example, right now, one paid-post is one chapter for a $1 pledge. You could simply change what a paid-post is, so... One paid-post becomes ten chapters for a $10 pledge tier. As chapters are released, simply edit your $10 pledge tier paid-post. Instead of patrons pledging for chapter 101, we would be pledging for chapters 101-110. Simply edit your 101-110 post as more chapters are added to it. This makes it more fair to you than going monthly, still $1 per chapter, but saves all of us nine extra posts of fees.

Anonymous
>>8786922

I have quite a few in my head, however getting them on paper has always been a problem. I've always loved reading, but writing was never my strong suit; to the disappointment of my english teachers. I "can" do it, it just doesn't bring me pleasure. My creativity has always leaned towards the mechanical (blame LEGOs). Welding, Machining, Carpentry, Automotive, I love to design. From boats to Baja Trucks, my mind daydreams of how to set up a long travel suspension from scratch. That said I do have the outline of a space opera sitting in my document folder. So who knows, maybe someday the itch will finally demand scratching.

Anonymous

I just canceled my pledge for the other creator I supported and increased my pledge here to 3 times my pledge but with only once a month support. I hope I don't loose access after the first chapter comes out. I'm sorry I don't want to pay high fees, I understand the need to make money for patreon but if I wanted to pay high fees I could as easily pledge more money to my creators.

Tefler

Good news everyone! Patreon changed their mind, they are leaving things exactly as they were! :-)

Anonymous
>>8870277

a.k.a. Patreon noticed that the 1 dollar pledges were rapidly drying up, because people won't tolerate a sudden 38% cost increase without any benefit to them and only minor benefit to the artists.

Grimlakin

Woot! Patreon.com tried to be sneaky and it failed.

Grimlakin
>>8831677

Responding here so you see it. Patreon.com backed out of their fee structure change. So yay.

Anonymous

Apology from Patreon CEO <a href="https://blog.patreon.com/not-rolling-out-fees-change/">https://blog.patreon.com/not-rolling-out-fees-change/</a>

Anonymous

Hello again! I just started pledging again after cancelling when I saw the first notification. It wasn't the amount, it was the principle of Patreon believing they could increase my payments without getting permission first. I wasn't going to support a company that did that, and I hoped if enough people did that they might change their minds... and it seems to have worked :-) Happy I can support you again.