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Red Dwarf | Ouroborus S7 Ep 3 | Gallifrey Gals Get Dwarfed (Patreon)

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2024-04-10 17:00:17
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Welp... I guess things just got a lot more confusing huh?

Thank you all for being here with us on these watch throughs and thank you for always being a supportive and wonderful community!

https://vimeo.com/931247264/8e4f58e903?share=copy

PAULA DEMING

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KAT ALYSHA

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Gallifrey Gals Theme Song by:  NoAnie Music

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Red Dwarf | Ouroborus S7 Ep 3 | Gallifrey Gals Get Dwarfed

Comments

Troy Convers

Well here we go, the episode that sorts out the men from the misogynists and the boys from the boycotters. Clare Grogan wasn't invited back as Naylor wanted 'eye candy', given that a film may have been in the offing. Thankfully the superb Chloe Annet was cast, an actress with the sort of depth and range that Grogan could only dream of.

PickettsChargingPort
>>134819959

I remember when this episode was aired. I was apprehensive regarding the dynamic of the characters. It turned out I had nothing to worry about. Chloe Annet brought an amazing character to the show. It turned out Kachanski was just as neurotic as everyone else, just in a different way.

Sue the Scottish Geek

Yeah the plot of this one makes no sense at all. The irony of Lister comparing getting rid of nose hair to childbirth when he gave birth to twins! I don't mind the new Kochanski but I wish they hadn't changed her so much from the original version. who was definitely not posh, I just can't imagine Lister being so smitten by someone posh. Also, not directed at either of you, but there's never a need to build one actor up by tearing another one down (especially when one had so little to work with). Both actors are good in the role. Alexander John-Jules is one of Danny's nephews. Death in Paradise is a great series btw, and his character on that show is called Dwayne (but not Dibbley!)

Pocket Trumpeter

Does anyone know how to watch the extended edition in the UK? I was having to pause the iPlayer version a lot to keep in line

Matthew Hanlon

It certainly is different watching these as a 43 year old rather than a 16 year old, Christ I got old… I think part of it is they’re trying for a more dramatic feel with this series, the early series had a lot of pathos but weren’t dramatic as such. But by the time they hit 6 it was much more straight comedy with all the running gags - I think 6 has probably aged the poorest due to that, despite having some great episodes. Everything before series 7 I’ve watched again & again, everything after I’ve only seen when originally aired so it’s quite a trip down memory lane here.

PickettsChargingPort
>>134824046

I just decided to roll with the retcon and just accept that somehow, in some universe, the two of them would be together for a time. The only things I thought were cringe were kissing Kachanski when she wasn't aware of what was going on and the unnecessary scene at the end of the episode with the underware.

Sue the Scottish Geek
>>134824348

I saw them a long long time but can't remember how. Maybe on DVD? They're definitely not available for streaming here unfortunately.

Mark Carr
>>134819959

Feel you're oversimplifying things there. There are any number of reasons for criticism. See Cyborcat and/or DiamandaHagans retrospectives, which often criticise Doug's writing of KK as being repeatedly sexist (as well as generally all over the place). There are any number of reasons people might not like this particular point of the series from many different angles. I like Chloe as KK, but this sort of talk just poisons the well as if anyone critical of the show after the writers split as being some sort of incel woman-hater. Besides, Hattie Hayridge came in for the incredibly popular Norman Lovette and we didn't have such fuss over that.

Jakob1978

Struggled to match this up, the only copy I have handy is the iPlayer one, so had to pause a few times. But still managed ok. This is an episode I enjoy, but I don’t think it’s particularly funny. I think there are better episodes to come. Regarding the “laughter track”, it’s worth saying that for this series, it’s not a library track of laughs just added where the production team think there should be laughter, they played the completed episodes to an audience and recorded their reactions. The reason for Rimmers reduced role is explained in the making of, so I won’t spoil it for you.

Raven Stromdans

This is definitely the point at which I started to struggle with the series, which unfortunately lasts for basically the entirety of Chloe Annet's run on the show. While I'm sure she's a fine actress in her own right, she never felt like Kochanski to me, the person that Lister describes in the novel as "When she smiled, her eyes lit up like a pinball machine when you win a bonus game". Mostly, I remember feeling like her addition to the show really changed the dynamic in a way I didn't much care for, particularly her interactions with Kryten. But, maybe with the rewatch and a couple of decades between when I last watched the series, I'll have a different experience this time. On the plus side, I actually really liked the premise of this story, which actually sets the stage for some fun in later episodes. Anyway, that's enough out of me before I start unwittingly dropping serious spoilers. Keep Calm and Smeg On, Gallifrey Gals! I'll be here stoking a clipper with Mr. Flibble until the next episode!

PickettsChargingPort
>>134819959

Hattie Hayridge is a gem. Loved her as Holly. Also like Chloe Annette (I’ll spell her name right, eventually)

Rob G
>>134828061

Agree with this. The picture built up of KK doesnt match what we eventually get to see on screen and takes a bit of adjustment to get used to but I think she fits it pretty well in the end personally. Its a great idea to rewatch everything again which I did and some previous opinions on episodes changed quite a bit, I even think in the much later series there are some really good concepts and pretty good comedy as well.

Ashley

Paul Flux

So ... a few moments after discovering that this episode is called Ouroborus, Kat's mind turns to the River Song re-watch! It seems that Lister isn't the only British TV sci-fi character with a timey-wimey origin story! 😉

Mark Carr
>>134819959

Both Hollys are great, but for me Hattie is (just about) my favourite.

Raven Stromdans
>>134824046

The posh thing niggled at me too. The kind of Kochanski that Chloe plays in the show just doesn't seem like the kind of person Lister would go for, though I admit there's no accounting for taste. That's not to say I don't think he'd find her physically attractive, because she's certainly that, but rather after the times he went on about all the posh things he didn't like and the sense of being a class traitor just for going into a wine bar, I can't imagine *that* Lister chasing down someone like this particular Kochanski.

Troy Convers

Such a great sci-fi concept - Lister is a child of two realities, both of which had only one human left. A proper Adam and Eve concept.

Ashley

This has to be the most retconned show of all time. I remember in Season 1 when Rimmer impersonates Kochanski they specifically mention that Lister and her were never together.

Troy Convers

Kryten as the possessive mother is so on point and makes sense, considering he's suffering from abandonment issues from all of the people he's lost. And that Miss Piggy voice. 😂

Jonathan Giles

Yeah there's a few Retcon moments lol. Good thing it doesn't effect the quality of the episodes though. Loving the season so far. 👌

Mark Ten

Dont most boys at some point wish to grow up to be like their dads? I guess its fitting that the last human being in existence... wait he's not any more, is he?

Ross Nolan

I do like Chloë Annett and I feel fans in general are a little harsh on her. I think she had a very difficult job effectively replacing one of the best and more popular characters in the show (and Rimmer is my favourite character so I get the disappointment over his departure.) She also had the difficult task of replacing the original actress for Kochanski. I'll admit not everything about her introduction goes smoothly but I do still like this version of Kochanski and hope she wins you over.

Lizbeth Marcs

I always felt that Doug Naylor made a huge mistake calling the new character "Kristine Kochanski". Chloe Annett's KK does not match the KK we've seen in previous episodes. Even leaving aside the fact that Chloe does not look anything like Claire Grogan, Claire does not come across as posh like Chloe. I think if Chloe's character had a completely different name (ANY name besides Kristine Kochanski), the character would have gone over much, much better. Sure, it would have shot the whole "love story across time and space and multiple dimensions" straight into the bin, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. Especially considering that originally Lister and KK never even dated, and then it was later retconned to "they dated all of 3 weeks". If you read the books, it's even worse than that — KK didn't really care about Lister beyond "he's a fling". Honestly, I liked Chloe as an actress, and I even liked the character, just not the fact the character was named "Kristine Kochanski", because there is no way that the Lister we've been following for more than 6 years (TV series time) would have been hung up on a posh snob for +3 million years. Dated? Yes. Pined? Not a chance. It also doesn't help that (unfortunately) Craig Charles and Chloe Annett have no romantic chemistry. At all. They have interesting sibling energy that could have been channeled for comedic effect, but by forcing Chloe's character into the KK mold...I think you can see where I'm going with this. It kind of gets worse from here on that front. You can also see the beginnings of "we need to start distributing Rimmer's failings to the other characters since we don't have him around to be the antagonist" problem. KK gets Rimmer's snobbery. Lister gets some (not all) of Rimmer's weirdness around women. Kryten gets...well, you'll see...

Ross Nolan
>>134839195

I really like Chloe Annett but in some ways she seems like the girl of Rimmer's dreams rather than Lister's.

Nizz

Struggled to watch along as I only have the normal versions on BBC iPlayer. So was out of sync a lot. The extended versions aren’t that good anyway.

Simon M

This wasn't the best episode. It has a really interesting premise, and one that begs for further exploration. Lister having more substantial time with his counterpart would have been interesting - exploring how hologramatic existence changed him. They could have even had him initially appear as soft light, and have our Lister give him one of Rimmer's old Hard Light Bees to give him physical form. I would have liked to see if Lister's realisation in "Dimension Jump" about a happier parallel self - "I made up for him. Whatever he did that I didn't, he deserves it." - was this actually true? There should definitely have been more for Cat to do. If the Cat race was built around Kochanski's principles rather than Listers, how would his upbringing have been different? Sometimes Cat has minor roles in episodes, but in this one he was practically completely absent. Kryten could have been fascinated with the concept of helping raise a baby, excited for all the new jobs he would be able to help with, and the voice of logic to convince Lister to fulfil the time loop and take the baby to the past. There could have been something so much more mature than the rather grating scene demonstrating his complete personality change with regard to posessiveness over Lister. I think I would have preferred a non-GELF explanation for the dimensional tear seperating. Perhaps the entire endeavour was a risky one by the parallel universe crew, to get genetic material for their child, and they miscalculated? I think that would have been better in terms of storytelling myself, though I suppose it was a nice bit of continuity. As an aside, regarding Kochanski and how she is completely different from her previous incarnation - in appearance and personality - and how her history with Lister is written - there is a potential explanation in The Inquistor. The Inquistor presumably found THIS Kochanski to be unworthy of existence and erased her, replacing her with S1/2/6 Kochanski. That replacement Kochanski never dated Dave, but was erased when all The Inquisitor's work was undone, bringing back THIS Kochanski, who did date Dave. Timey Wimey.

Skyrous

My emotions have always been mixed about Cloe joining the show. First of all she's replacing Rimmer which is an impossible job. Secondly Red Dwarf is a ship of "Whacked out crazies and hippy peaceniks". Kochanski just doesn't fit, she's too competent. She had the job that Rimmer spent years testing trying to get. In the next episode you see them trying to bring her down to the guys level. I think I would have preferred if they'd brought in Arlene Rimmer from "Dimension Jump".

John Veitch
>>134845737

This would mean that Dave Lister erased the Kochanski he loved out of existence.

Simon M
>>134845737

But doesn't remember it as he only now has memories of this version. How tragic!

Ross Nolan
>>134846106

I suspect that would have meant a recasting as we had with Kryten. Chole herself could have played an interesting Rimmer.

Katrine Myra
>>134824046

100% agree. This has always been my feeling, too. I know that we didn't see a lot of Clare's Kochanski, but even if we'd never seen a Kochanski on screen before, the series VII version doesn't make sense with what we've heard about the character. But as you say - both actors do phenomenally well with the material they are given. Much credit to them both.

Brodie Vickers

After the madness of today's X-Men 97 episode, I badly need something to help me wind down😅This is the best candidate for the job!

Chris Neumann
>>134834594

I feel like season 3 breaks into a "new continuity," along with the stylistic change.

John Veitch
>>134819959

I wonder if it was Ms Grogan's performance in "Psirens" which made Doug realise that they needed to recast, since she didn't seem to be up to the material.

Chris Neumann

Re: Chris Barrie, he was doing another show at the time, a VERY popular sitcom called "The Brittas Empire" which actually looks more demanding than RD does, thre's a bigger cast, a lot of location shooting, lots of stunts and practical effects work. it's a constant storm and his character is always in the middle of it, and there are seasons of that show which go 8 episodes plus holiday specials. It's a FUN show (definitely watch it if you come across it), but I can't imagine doing that and Red Dwarf one after the other (Barrie was also doing specials and guest appearances and so on, it's a big workload). And yet, as far as I know, no animated roles, which is insane.

John Veitch
>>134839195

People have compared Chloe-Kochanski with Harrison, the potential replacement hologram when Rimmer was going to join the Holoship crew.

John Veitch
>>134824348

I watched along with the video on Dailymotion, although I had to re-sync after each ad break.

Chris Neumann
>>134846106

I feel like Kris is meant to be the Frasier character, but they don't quite know how to pull that off. Plus being so competent at what they need someone to be competent at does kinda mess with the dynamic. Frasier is smart but in Cheers, no one really needs those smarts so gets to be the oddball stuffy know-it-all professor. And I suppose in RD, Kryten is kind of that, he's the most erudite, tidy, professional and learned of the crew and that fits (wants to be tidy, lives with slobs). There's a give-and-take that they just didn't figure out for her and that keeps her feeling like the odd duck out.

Cedric Bombs
>>134833850

There aren't many episodes of this show that don't retcon a previous episode in some way lol

Chris Neumann

IIRC they tried to get CP Grogan back but she wasn't able to (making 601 "Psirens" her final appearance). And while that would have been interesting, I think she'd make a more interesting replacement for Lister rather than RImmer (particularly after learning she was a musician).

Chris Neumann
>>134845737

Oh yeah, I feel like RD7 doesn't take advantage of the story opportunities the way the previous seasons did (probably the strength of having two writers trying to entertain each other, you wind up with packed scripts). The idea that the dimension tear could be Kris' fault would actually have been a GREAT premise for the story, if it's her own hubris and she fails then that's humbling, it's a failure she has to deal with and her character isn't used to that. Then you can make it almost a reverse Rimmer trajectory, officer needs to learn to be more of a slob and that's where her relationship with Lister can blossom. Make her all business and over-educated then she can learn style from Cat (she's SO stylish in that all red outfit), then you have a nice meshing going on.

Brodie Vickers

Oh cool, whereabouts did you visit over here Paula? Hope we treated you well😊

Chris Devlin

Had to dig out my BluRay set to watch the extended version of this. Of the extended episodes in this season I do think this is the weakest. The stuff added isn't really substantial and I think just makes some scenes un-necessarily drawn out. Lister meeting and shaking hands with himself is a good example. I didn't enjoy this as much as the first two episodes and I think that comes down to the poor extended pacing, which is even worse without the laugh track (At least in this case). Chloe is decent here but she always had a mammoth task to come in after 6 seasons, replace an existing actress and also fill the hole left by the strongest character in the whole show by that point. She does a good job and they certainly give her a prominent role over the remainder of the season. She's a different take on the character than we had seen before and I'm always interested to see new takes on characters. By this point though I think continuity was beginning to become more important as well. Which is a problem because of Red Dwarfs fabulous disregard for established information when it suits the writers.

Rob G

This was a really different episode compared to the first two in this series which are classic. The introduction of Chloe was also logical but lore inconsistent. It made sense that if Rimmer was gone then a perfect replacement would be Kochanski, the sassy kick ass girl that the show built up in our minds and in the books that Lister longed after. She would not be the perfect officer that knew everything, she would also have flaws like everyone else on the Dwarf. So I think this is why there was some confusion amongst Dwarf fans, the KK they gave us was not the one we expected. It’s a lore issue through and through and it didn’t make sense. That said Chloe did grow into her role later on once things settled down and I think a lot of the writing finally gave her some justice. That said, some of the writing is really cringe also, the attempt at comedy did do a dive. It’s not bad though, lots of stuff to laugh at, but hit the pause button Gals I know how sensitive you are. ️

Rob G
>>134834108

I like the comedic tone given to him as well, some dont but I think it works for his character.

Jonathan Goldsmith

I Thought Paula's accent sounded slightly British earlier this week..! I can't hear it in this video but hearing about the trip explains it!

Sebastian Bodine

First off, this is a hard reaction to keep pace with considering that I'm watching the tv edit from Britbox. I forget how much I miss from the DVD version. I overall like this episode, and it's one that is somewhat built up from The Last Day from series III and Tikka to Ride from this series. I happen to believe that the Dwarf crew have been tearing apart spacetime with their shenanigans with time travel and hopping into different universes. I do believe that this episode solidifies one more step for Lister toward godhood as he steps outside of causality to create himself. I'm still waiting on him to jumpstart the second big bang tho. For Kochanski, I like this version. Maybe it's nostalgia, but I love her being the odd one out for being the most qualified and competent, but you've already picked up on some of the issues with the writing. The evident drawback of trying to introduce a woman to a boys club. Also still not a fan of Kryten's regression.

Travis Boyle
>>134834108

I didn't mind it. But I found it went on for to many episodes. Maybe if it ended after Series 7 Episode 6

Travis Boyle
>>134834594

I used to use Time slides as an excuse. Now I just regard all the continuity changes happened in the epic time spanning wibbly wobbly multi verse shattering Series Nine. Lol.

Travis Boyle

I'm glad you Gals didn't watch the extended version of Tikka To Ride it might of effected your enjoyment of the episode. Personally I was fine with you just reacting to the broadcast versions. I like new Kochanski but I can imagine you Gals rolling your eyes at some of the dialogue in the rest of the Series. It's like Naylor never met a woman before.

Kieran B

The original Kochanski was Clare Grogan, the lead singer of 80s band Altered Images - most famous for Happy Birthday Death in Paradise is superb!

Kieran B

The laugh track was from an audience they played the episodes to rather than strictly ‘canned laughter’ In the original Greek pronunciation Ouroboros would be a bit closer to how it’s said in the show

Travis Boyle
>>134851653

Hope they don't watch the extended version of Series 8 episodes. They will only get one reaction video instead of three for episodes 1,2,and 3.

Rob G
>>134839195

Ross yes, Chloe would be the dream Rimmer would long for, high up in stature, competent, everything he failed at.

Rob G
>>134819959

Can you sort the haters from the real fans now Troy? Your imaginary misogynistics never appeared, boo.

Wade Wallenstein

I saw some Red Dwarf on PBS in the mid 90s but really started watching around the late 2000s. Always watched it because I found it fun and have never done a deep dive into the "backstage" portion like I've seen here. It's wild reading all of this and makes me happy I never did lol. As far as the relationship with Kochanski, the novel "Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers" goes into more retail about it. "Petersen and Lister go for a drink with their friends Selby and Chen where Lister spots Kristine Kochanski for the first time. He falls madly in love with her instantly, and after a few attempts, he gets her to go on a date with him. They have a passionate affair for five weeks and Lister is madly in love with her. However, it is revealed that she was going out with a flight coordinator until he left her for somebody else, and was on the rebound when Lister met her. When the flight coordinator returns, she leaves Lister. For the next three weeks — three days planet leave on Miranda aside — Lister misses her deeply." I listened to the audiobook (read by Chris Barrie) years after seeing this episode so it was nice getting some context.

Mark Carr
>>134826672

There were only 3 extended episodes iirc, ep1, ep3 and whatever number duct soup is. So at most there should only be one more.

Ashley
>>134993017

I'm pretty sure the first time I saw Red Dwarf as also on PBS. PBS was kind of dope in the 90s. it exposed me to british comedy and anime for the firs time when I was a kid. A couple years later and I noticed that blockbuster video had red dwarf vhs tapes and I started renting those. In the late 2000s my aunt got a job at BBC America and she started giving me red dwarf dvds and a lot of other swag she got there, besides red dwarf it was mostly Dr Who and Top Gear stuff.

Katrine Myra
>>134993017

I love the novels, but they're all slightly divergent from show canon, which is, of course, divergent from itself. Somehow!!

Katrine Myra

It's been a while since I've seen Ouroboros (it's not one of my favorites), and yeah; the plot doesn't really hold together. I never questioned why Lister has to get the vial back from Kochanski, but rewatching it now, it makes no sense. I guess he thinks if he doesn't, he won't be born, as she's going to a parallel universe? But of course, he WAS born, so the more logical conclusion would be that this is a guarantee that he'll see her again. And as you say, why does being a hologram change Lister so drastically, when it didn't change Rimmer to the same degree? Yes, Rimmer does have character development over the years, but the whole thing sits uneasily with me. There are some not-great implications about gender roles there, too. And on that note: Kochanski. To be clear, I love Chloe Annet, and I think she plays the character that was written for her amazingly well - but I am baffled by how they chose to write that character. Naylor has admitted that he struggled to write female characters, and that's fair enough, but I'm sorry to say that this version of Kochanski quite often makes me cringe. When you take a female character that is sophisticated, well-educated and posh, and place her with male characters like Lister and Cat, you're really just setting up a bunch of "women be shopping, men drink beer" type jokes that you'd expect from a third-rate generic sitcom, not Red Dwarf. It's not just Kochanski though, Lister in series I through VI knits, watches romantic movies and cries. Series VII puts Lister in a pink dressing gown and makes a joke of how it makes him look unmanly. Yikes. As others have noted, it makes very little sense for this to be the same person Lister fell for. I would kill for every single one of her outfits though...!

James Fleischman

In regards to enjoying the Ace scenes at the start - have you watched Ash vs Evil Dead? I think you'd really enjoy it because it's goofy horror stunts and it's kind of Hollywood for Hollywood

David Shadwell
>>134824046

I think the characterisation was also an issue in this series. While Lister has never shied away from being a bit of a dick, for two of the three episodes so far he is actually been quite an a-hole. After all his character progression, this feels such a step-back for him. Chloe as an actress is fine with what she is given but I agree that her character as it is feels out of place on an old tramp steamer mining vessel in deep space. Red Dwarf feels such an odd place for this very intelligent Flight Co-ordinator to end up. The set-up to her arrival feels clumsy (her crew mates just sod off and leave her as soon as trouble appears) but not really a deal breaker. I could buy that deep down, Lister was trying to better himself when he fell for Kochanski, maybe a sub-conscious realisation that he had screwed up by breaking up with Lisa Yates (see Thanks for the Memory). Not sure what KK saw in Lister what with his belching Yankee Doodle Dandy party piece back then but maybe wanted someone a little more exciting and dangerous for a change. Maybe she bought at the better side of him - like in the novel, 'Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers', where we see brief points in their relationship such as Lister finally talking about the death if his father. We don't really get any of that so the relationship never feels real enough. Shame for Chloe as I don't think they ever really nailed her character or gave her enough development. She had big shoes to fill and I think she was let down a bit. Also, the flashbacks seem odd to me what with the minimal backgrounds and black backdrop. Really just feel like stage sets and not real places. Does feel like the budget was blown on the first two eps somewhat.