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Discussion Question: what is the "Dark Scientific Method" (Patreon)

Published:
2015-02-02 18:29:54
Imported:
2021-06

Content

This is obviously something that's yet to be revealed in the comic, but I was curious: based on what's currently known, what do you think the "Dark Scientific Method" is?

Comments

Anonymous

I think it's straight-up magic.

Conrad Rushing

It seems to be a manner of manifesting effects in our plane of existence from some other place, by invoking equations. Something like observation-based waveform collapse in quantum mechanics, but interacting with forces and spaces not currently understood or perceived. Siphoning/buffering/converting some amount of dark energy or matter that is close to the Dark Scientific practicioner, either through teleportation or just accessing stores of it in close proximity? The contact between the 'Nephilim' and the council would seem to indicate that this knowledge came from contact with an alien or time-looped group, maybe the circle of entities that take Kim at the end of the Hob story?

Anonymous

I figured it was more like the "deep web" with respect to the obvious analogy. An overlooked depth of the scientific fields unnecessary for most humanoids in this society either because of grotesque practices or a catastrophic event in the past that altered societal impressions. Akin to the WH40k Dark Age of Technology versus the Imperium's current society.

Anonymous

The opposite of regular science. Dark Scientific Method. to me, means starting with the effect you want to manifest and then bending all the laws of physics backwards to make the evidence fit.

Paul Lenoue

It's the results of a committee set up by the counterintuitive bureau of disagreement (aka H.E.R.E.T.I.C.S.) that were able to develop it unhindered after it was decided they didn't exist. Though full funding was always approved.

Anonymous

I like Conard's theory, but also think it may be a metaphor for common sense; as Leviathan said, "Long before sciense, there was a way to see in the dark." the bureaucracy involved in today's science criples it from actually obtaining many tipes of knowledge that's avaliable by mere intuition but impossible to conclude with moder methods.

Benjamin J Pulley

Scientific method in reverse. Know the conclusion first, gather data that fits the conclusion, get materials, form a hypothesis that solidifies it all into being.

Anonymous

Eduardo & Conrad have the most interesting here. Like the lover's cave in ATLA, one must turn off the fire to see in the dark. Science is the fire that burns in the torch, revealing only where it treads, being absorbed by the darkness beyond. Dark science then is the reaction unseen by experimentation, and instead simply performed? Perhaps like Kim, who did not have the "qualifications" to do science, but instead simply DID things. It is the uncertainties presented by quantum mechanics. When we see equal and opposite, what continues ahead unbound and unseen is the realm of dark science.

dresdencodak

These are really cool theories so far! You guys have definitely put some thought into them.

Phlosioneer

I like conrad's ideas. But I have issues with the effects of dark science on the people that use it. Most of what I'm about to draw from comes from page 35. There are 8 equations in dark science. 7 of them are known by 7 people; this is immediately suspect. It means each person is an expert in exactly one equation - and only that equation. Second, these 7 have a pact or "truce" with each other, which is a curious notion for scientists. Then it's revealed that they have a parasitic relationship with the populace - whether metaphorically or literally - "there's no profit in waging war on our food source, especially when it's been crippled for centuries." And then we have kim. Kim is apparently the keeper of an 8th equation, fundamentally different and opposed to the other seven. With it, there is a lot of symbology around light, while the other 7 have a lot of symbology about darkness. So we have a psychology-driven form of not-science, that is veeeery old, and profits from a bureaucracy-ridden city. Making a guess, perhaps the mass-psychology of the population is feeding their powers. Making another guess, before science the leading way to explain things was myth, superstition, and shamanism - what if, by starving the population of creativity and free-will, they are able to enhance their own free will and creativity? This idea meshes well with the departments of the city. Each one (that matters) specializes in a particular form of oppression or control - we have seen one of the 7 is the head of the department of secrets. I would gander the other 6 are also department heads. Based on psychological control, I would also guess that the powers each one has is directly related to the type of department they have. Then kim's place in all of this makes perfect sense. She is Hope or Belief. She physically manifests the most powerful emotion she can bring to bare, her sheer strength of will to advance and make things right, and make a better world (by her definition of a better world, at least). And she was given this hope, this equation, by her father, who discovered the 8th equation and is repeatedly shown in flashbacks giving kim promises and hopes about the future. Especially her future, as the rising sun. More religious imagery. Taking the religious metaphor for kim and running with it, that would mean the 7 other equations are something evil and religious. The most obvious analog would be the 7 deadly sins. So far, we have seen the head of the department of secrets; I would imagine he corresponds to pride, as that is how kim was able to defeat him, working his own pride in his knowledge against him and his time limit. We then have the portraits of 4 of the other 7. Judging by not one but two uses of english metaphors relating to food, I would say the fellow in the first panel represents greed. The others are hard to pin down - but I would guess the leader probably represents envy. Her fixation on Kim and her sheer curiosity on the subject hints a brooding desire. Secondly, "Then appreciate my nature... I value knowledge above all else," fits the M.O. for envy the best. Of course, it's time to play devil's advocate a bit. I took several large leaps to get to the religious analog. The only way to see will be to wait for the next battle.

Escritorian

It reminds me of a conversation I was having with a friend once, with whom hypotheticals were a frequent feature. At the time we were talking about the spread of logic as a system and its development in ancient Greece when suddenly he asked, "What if we were wrong?" Suddenly the conversation turned to a contemplation of a greater system to which functioning logic as it had been developed wasn't the system, wasn't the immutable law of the universe and the working of things, but a feature. It was part of a larger system, not quite a subsystem, whose greater working could be intuited from logic to some extent but weren't governed by logic. The greater system would be the answer to such logical quandaries as observation of cause and effect being usable only because it's proven valid, essentially, by cause and effect, making it a circuitous system and not the partial rescue by thought of Kant's philosophies. What if, it went, these were the hints this greater system existed and the hints into its seemingly infinite workings that we were blind to because we decided we have to see everything in terms of logic. What if there were this greater system at play, and the only way to really understand it was to break your understanding of everything actually works first? That's kind of what comes to mind when I think about "Dark Science," though, of course, I clearly have a bias.

Anonymous

If energy is not conserved where I am, then my only conclusion would be this: "There is no spoon."

Wu Wei Wolf

Hmm, what we know (or at least, have been told): 1) Science is the "perpetual horizon", growing by illuminating more and more of the universe. Dark science is a "way around that", and a "way to see in the dark". Apparently you get a great deal of of knowledge/technology/power directly, without using empiricism or having to learn difficult concepts behind how something works. (Leviathan: "You literally could not understand." This may be hyperbole, or it may *actually* be literal, and there are concepts involved that modern humans truly cannot grasp.) 2) It's ancient, "before science". That could refer to some kind of magic or shamanism. However, in this universe, we have 6,000+ year old artifacts from the time of an ancient war against the "Nephilim", which do look somewhat like technology, so it could be "sufficiently advanced" technology from before the collapse of an ancient civilization. At the same time, on page 7 there's a divination ritual that really looks like magic. 3) There's some price associated with using it. Kaito Kusanagi seemed to be disturbed by this, and speaks of "sacrifice", "giving up" something, and "a price". The fact that the dark scientists see Nephilopolis as a "food source" may imply some sacrifice of its citizens. Leviathan's fear of "death herself" may also be related to the price that occupied Kusanagi. 4) There are several lines of evidence suggesting that Kim's memories have been tampered with. (Things she knows she should remember but can't, things that don't match known history/geography, things that she doesn't think she should remember but does.) So my theories would be: 1) Dark science changes the laws of physics, or appeals to a broader version of them that applies to some higher multiverse that we're embedded in. Once a method of going "outside" the rules of our universe is discovered, playing by the rules with normal science seems quaint. Messing with the universe in this way requires a large amount of some physical or computational resource, which the dark scientists are leeching from Nephilopolis, or some large and complex mechanism, which the citizens of the city are unwittingly maintaining. 2) Dark science is code for "borrow technology originally developed by an older or transhuman entity". This may be: a) Technology left over after the war with the Nephilim (or from another civilization that the dark scientists are currently trading with). b) Somehow harnessing the collective (artificial and organic) computing power and creativity of Nephilopolis, to somehow develop technologies without anyone consciously making scientific breakthroughs that advance society. c) Using advanced technology from some possible future to rule over the past (like the time colonists in HOB, only if a few individuals had subtly infiltrated, instead of everyone invading en masse). In any case, the dark scientists can't fully understand this technology, but they have figured out some basic principles that let them tap into it subconsciously, and somehow they are using the citizens of Nephilopolis as part of the process. 3) Dark science is a big con. People are having their minds tampered with so that impossible things appear to happen. This could be like the Matrix, or smoke-and-mirrors-and-mind-control in the physical world. This meshes with Kim's spotty memory, but it doesn't mesh so well with the fact that the dark scientists are still fallible, and it doesn't explain why they seem to need Nephilopolis for something other than just having serfs to rule over.

Wu Wei Wolf
>>321578

Looking at the last panel on page 18, I'm thinking that we have gluttony, greed, pride, lust, envy, wrath, and sloth. Leviathan explicitly talked about envy, and in the most recent page, Belphegor seems to be seeking to recruit a villain obsessed with "envy" to replace him. I should point out that Alisa Caspar invents the name "Azrael" to describe Kim before they are introduced. Azrael is traditionally an angel of death (but not usually a malevolent demon). Leviathan talks about "death herself" manifesting if he doesn't kill Kim, and in Kim's flashback she's told that "war against the Nephilim ends in death".

Anonymous

for those uncertain about the sins of the dark council; they're assigned, from left to right, as so: glutony, greed, pride, (empty space representing "death herself"), lust, envy, wrath, and sloth. in page 18 of dark science "Dark Council" <a href="http://dresdencodak.com/2012/04/10/dark-science-18/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://dresdencodak.com/2012/04/10/dark-science-18/</a> So Morning Star would represent Pride and Leviathan would represent envy. Specialy noticeable in page 31 "I have no anger, cyborg, just envy." He does seem to be a somehow overwhelmed by pride though...

Anonymous

I'll have to do a straight re-readthrough of DS before I can give a coherent answer to this.

Anonymous

I think that perhaps dark science is the principles necessary to understand and control dark matter. I new epistemology specifically for the vast astronomical unknown.

Spav

Sounds to me like the science used by the ones casting the shadows on the cave wall.

Anonymous

I'm going with a Cat Who Walks Through Walls sort of interpretation; Dark Science isn't so much science, in the way we think about it, but some clever application of willful ignorance. Instead of most Science Fiction, where lines like "You literally could not understand." [1] would be signs of bad writing, that seems like an integral part of the mindset necessary to use that power. It fits the running light/dark metaphor, because just like darkness exists without light, ignorance exists without understanding. Understanding, like light, highlights the last pockets of ignorance, but rarely banishes it completely. It's also, narratively, a perfect challenge for Kim. Her M.O. is understanding the hell out of things, and to learn to walk through walls is really the opposite of that. [1] (31 - Escalation - Row 2 Panel 2)

Anonymous
>>322314

It's the unknown reality that casts shadows. Dark scientists are more like those, who has found their way to the entrance of the Platon's Cave and now are obscuring the shadows for everyone else.

Etienne M.J. Dubourg

Oh my, another unending post... About the "7 deadly sins" hypothesis, I must say that I was not swayed in that direction at first, but a few members of the Dark Concil seem to have their personality drawn anought to support this : &gt; Belphegor (Gluttony ?) fits the food theme pretty well beside just being fat ; he often uses food-related terms in an odd way : "delicious knowledge" (#25), "delectably unexpected" (#35), and his monologue in #39 starts by regretting that Vonnie has "barely eaten" and noting that the "prison cuisine is a singular delight". Counter-argument : all these expressions rather point towards an appreciation of refined and tasteful cuisine, rather than the "I want to eat everything" approach that would be more in line with the meaning of this sin. And the use of the "food source" metaphor by the supposed greed in #35 could mean that food terms are actually a more profound theme/metaphor for the dark council (although it seems unlikely at this time). &gt; The unnamed Dark Council member with the beak-like hat (Anger ?) seems to be indeed prone to rage : "Reckless fool ! What happened ?" (#18), "Just let me kill him already." (#35), while no other member ever comes closes to losing his temper... with the exception of Leviathan, but Kim has to work hard for that, and even then he mostly keeps his composure ("I severely dislike you", "clever cyborg") and of balthazar who raises his voice in #25. Counter-argument : Both of "Anger's" fits of rage are directed towards Melchior, so this could just mean resentment towards him, rather than a hint toward the personality of this member. &gt; Leviathan mentions having "no anger [...], just envy", and Belphegor insists on that same envy when trying to recruit Vonnie. For now, I will wait to have more devellopement concerning all the members before making my mind (for now, I find Morningstar to evoke envy more than any other sin, but that is clearly Leviathan's spot. We'll see...) Another thing upon wich lots of people seem to agree is the use of Nephilopolis' population by the Dark Council, as stated by the "food source" line (#35, panel 6). But the same line also states that "it's been crippled for centuries"... and, although no dates or ages have ever ben given, the brief history of Nephilopolis as city (#14) doesn't seem to make it centuries-old. This could mean that the "food source" is not the city itself or its population (it has long been a simple farming community), but maybe something in the city... like a remnant of that 6000 years-old civilisation, since it seems clear that Dark Science is based, one way or another, upon something (knowledge, artifacts, ... ?) the nephilim left behind, or that was taken from them. Anyway, I just wanted to point out that the (probable) relatively young age of the city as it is now seems quite incompatible with the "Dark Science siphons creativity/exploits the collective subconscious" hypothesis. Info on the city's age could help clear that.

Anonymous

I had only been keeping a vague idea as I read, based on the mentions of Plato's Cave. Normal scientists study empirical evidence (the shadows on the wall), and come to understand parts of natural laws. Dark Science could be exposure to the explicit natural laws themselves. Something like having access to the source code for a system, compared with reverse engineering it.

PRodger

Clarke's third law says that sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Being indistinguishable is an equivalence relation, so by the symmetric property we get that magic is indistinguishable from sufficiently advanced technology. If real wizards just showed up on day, blasting fireballs, and declaring themselves magic overlords; I think most of us would have a hard time believing it. We would come up with scientific/scifi explanations for how they were doing what they were doing (probably nanobots or something like that). What if the magic was given to us? Would we end up controlling it almost by accident? Using machines which don't actually work. They run on magic and function only because the user thinks they do? What if the magic wasn't given to us, and we found it? Could a person figure out a way to use magic, but mistake it for science? Could they tie the two together so tightly that it became impossible to truly know which it was? I'm not entirely sure what my point is here, but somewhere in what I just said is what I think Dark Science is.

FunkyTuba

There's an exploitative element to it... if you keep the people limited in their focus you can harness them with those limitations so you have none yourself.

Anonymous

I might be alone in this but I really hope we don't find out. All of my favorite stories (and Dresden Codak is a prime example) raise more questions than they answer-- as soon as you pin down an answer you lose the possibility-- collapsing the waveform as it were-- there's much more beauty and mystery in the transition when the unknown remains unknown. I hope Aaron either doesn't give us a real answer or gives us so many answers that we are left to wonder what the truth is. That being said I do really like a lot of the theories people have come up with.

Brian Richard Pauw

I am really curious to see what Aaron will make of dark science. In my world, we have recently published a critical scientific paper negating 10 years of someone else's work. That paper has certainly brought out the darker side of science with trolls and identity thieves trying to discredit the work. More about that (and one of Aaron's images used with permission) here: <a href="http://www.lookingatnothing.com/index.php/archives/1457" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://www.lookingatnothing.com/index.php/archives/1457</a>