Foley Is Pod - Cactus vs. Vader WCW Saturday Night [Show Notes] (Patreon)

Today here on Foley is Pod - we’re going to be discussing your two match series that took place 25 years ago in WCW - with Big Van Vader.

We want you to watch it along with us!

Get your Peacock out!

Season 2 - episode 16 of WCW Saturday Night…

Fast forward to the 1:08:18 mark - 3-2-1!

And really if you want to go back and watch this whole episode when you’re done Foley is Pod I recommend you do, some great WCW action in 1993 - Arn Anderson is on there, the Hollywood Blondes, Lord Steven Regal - all good stuff.

You’re just starting to take off in your babyface run in WCW as we started to cover earlier this year. You’re placed firmly as the #2 babyface in the company. But you’re in that transition phase with Bill Watts gone, Ole Anderson firmly in place, Ric Flair’s return soon to the company - how much flux were you in - and really the whole company?

Were you worried about your spot with the change in leadership?

Two days after SuperBrawl are the Saturday Night tapings you lose to Paul Orndorff in the quarterfinals of the TV title tournament in a match that would have to be re-taped a week later. Do you remember why you had to retape the match?

You’re also dealing with another babyface coming into the company - The British Bulldog Davey Boy Smith. You had worked with him in a TV match very early in your career against him & Dynamite Kid that ended with a broken jaw. You think he remembered that?

With this influx of talent - did you already feel like you were going to be slipping down the card?

The next day - the guy who fought hard for you to come into the company - Good Ol JR Jim Ross - resigns after being demoted. What did this mean for you?

Were you sad to see JR go?

Did you talk with him about it?

This was not your first time working with Vader was it?

From your book:

”We had recently had a match in Gainesville, Georgia, and Vader’s stuff looked (and was) so devastating that the fans had rallied behind me during the heat. I called Dusty and set up a meeting wanting to stress the point that I was just a flesh- and-blood man who could be (and had been) injured. I thought a series of matches with Vader would help the fans see me in a more sympathetic light.”

What do you remember of this match in Gainesville - on a TV taping but not for TV…

From your book:

“I laid out a scenario to Dusty-one that culminated in a devastating injury. The Dream thought about it for a few minutes, and then got a look on his face as if he’d just had a major revelation. He started to speak, Dusty-style, in his excited, animated fashion. “That’s it, baby, and when Vader hurts you, you’ll have amnesia. You’ll go home, but you won’t even know your family ... ” He continued to speak, but all I could think was how outlandish the whole thing was, and that it would never work. Nobody was going to believe amnesia. This was WCW, dammit-not Days of Our Lives. I was just about to speak up when Dusty said the magic words,

“We’ll take you off the road for four months and we’ll pay you.”

Let me see-I could get buried and languish in the opening matches, or I could be with my wife and son for four months and come back in a main event feud. The choice wasn’t difficult. When he asked me what I thought, I gushed, “I love it, Dream, I really love it.””

What was your relationship like Dusty? Did you feel like you could just call him up and lay out a plan and ideas like this?

Was this different than your relationship with Bill?

How excited were you to be off TV and did you think this would be something that would make you a bigger babyface?

From the Torch:

Cactus Jack defeated WCW World Champion Big Van Vader (w/ Harley Race) via count-out at 13:28 when Vader hit the steel barrier chest-first and Cactus followed with a somersault splash from the apron to the floor; after the bout, Vader threw around the barrier in anger; following the commercial break, Schiavone conducted an interview with Vader, alongside Race, in which Vader challenged Cactus to a rematch and said it could be anywhere and WCW didn’t have to sanction it; he then said he wanted Cactus the following week with Race saying Cactus just started a war that he wouldn’t survive; Vader continued to throw around the steel barrier as the show came to a close

You wrote this in your book about the match:

““Strangely, I enjoyed my battles with Vader. I’d pump myself up for days before a big match and would usually hurt for a few days after.

During the first match, at my suggestion, Vader did a number on my face, even though it seemed that my interpretation of “try to raise a little swelling around my eyes” varied dramatically from his.

The toll after match number one was impressive: broken nose, dislocated jaw, fourteen stitches in my eyebrow and seven underneath my eye.

The second match almost put me out of wrestling for good.”

Lets stop there - this is the first match. Not the blowoff. Was it just how Vader worked?

Was this something you had walked into the match going - yup this is going to hurt?

“Because I had been portrayed for the last year and a half as a guy who not only felt little pain (false), but also seemed to enjoy it (even falser), the fans had little sympathy for me. I mean, why would they feel bad for someone who was doing something he loved? Vader was a different story, though.

Vader and I had two matches to set up the injury. I talked a little bit about the first one, but it was so brutal that it really deserves an extra little look. I thought the psychology was pretty simple; I get the living crap beaten out of me, but somehow pulled out a victory. I began talking to Vader about swelling my eye up a little bit, and he seemed to brush it off by offering me another idea. “Maybe I can get a little blood from your nose, too.”

“Okay,” I said. Harley was there and helpfully offered to bust my eyebrow open.”

This is how far the business has come in 25 years isn’t it?

“Busting an eyebrow is the little known and little exercised act of creating a gash over the eyebrow by punching downward with the point of the knuckles. When done correctly, it is as effective at creating realism as anything in the business. When done incorrectly, by stressing force over technique, it does nothing but raise welts. There were only a few people whom I trusted to bust me open, and Harley was one of them. Oddly, even though I have the reputation for being a Hardcore Legend, I was surprisingly inept when it came to eyebrow busting. The bell rang and Vader started in. He pushed me into the turnbuckle, pushed my head back, and brought down four forearms in a row, right across the bridge of my nose. BAM, BAM, BAM, BAM!”

This is not the typical WCW match - let alone the typical Vader match he was having at the time working with the likes of Sting. Do you think you brought out the best in Vader?

“You could actually hear the sick sound of his wrist bone breaking my nose. Vader looked for blood, and when he didn’t see it, he became a man obsessed. He forgot all about the eye swelling and continually went after my nose. I wanted to tell the dumb bastard that I’d reconsidered, and that maybe he ought to think about stomping his foot on the mat instead.

Finally, about a thimbleful of blood dribbled out, and he remembered our talk about the eye. Boom, boom-two punches to the cheek and eyebrow and I went down.”

Are you thinking at this point - what did I get myself into?

“I have an unedited version of the tape (WCW refused to show some of it), and those two punches were awesome. I rolled out to the floor, where Harley was waiting anxiously for his big punch. He took one look at me, however, and saw that blood was already streaming from both my eyebrow and cheek, in addition to the little dribble from my broken nose. “Dammit, it’s already done,” grumbled a disappointed Harley as he rolled me back into the ring.”

Did you enjoy working with Harley?

“The fans were completely caught up in the contest, as I think most of them could tell that something a little different was going on. Vader went for a splash against the rail, and caught nothing but steel, as I moved out of harm’s way.

One Cactus Jack upside-down crack smash later, and I rolled back into the ring, the winner of a count-out victory. The fans reacted as if I’d just won the Super Bowl. It was a rare moment of real emotion, in a promotion that was almost void of it.

Believe it or not, the locker room was like a huge celebration afterward. The other wrestlers were blown away by what they’d just seen.

Even Ole Anderson came by and admitted that it had been a hell of a match. Vader and I hugged and even Harley tried his best to put on a happy face, despite the bitter letdown he’d just endured.”

Was this - at this point in time - your highest point in WCW - or was it working with Sting?

You wrote this in your book:

“I asked our TV people it they wanted to tape some fired- up backstage interviews. They said they really didn’t think they could air my face in its current state. The next day, Eric Bischoff told me that Turner wasn’t going to allow the match to air but that he was fighting them on the matter. I hated to think that the whole thing had been for naught. I’d been stitched up above and below my eye, my nose had been broken, causing both my eyes to blacken, and I’d dislocated my jaw.

As a guy who had a martial arts background,

Bischoff could appreciate what I’d been through. “Cactus,” he said, “I’ve had my ass kicked lots of times, but never that bad, and never by someone I let do it.””

Was this your first time dealing with Eric in an executive role? What did you think of him at this point in that chair?

“The match did air, and I have to in all sincerity thank Bischoff for taking a stand-but every drop of blood had been taken out. I don’t know how many hours they spent trying to homogenize it, but by making liberal use of crowd shots, long shots, and major editing, it paled in comparison to the real deal. Tony Schiavone is actually a pretty good announcer, but his stomach seemed a little weak for it, as he continually said, “Oh my goodness, oh my goodness.” Governor Ventura seemed to enjoy it, though.

Jim Ross, who was at this time announcing for the WWF, left a message on my machine saying that he’d seen the match, and really wished he’d been the one to call it.”

Was this the sort of match that missed JR do you think?

After the match Vader cuts this amazing promo about challenging you and he even chops Tony at some point who no-sells it…that always tickled me.

You wrote this in your book:

“A strange thing happened right after the match aired. A commercial played hyping Slamboree, WCW’s Pay-Per-View that paid homage to the stars of the past. I’ll be damned if every star they showed (the Crusher, Verne Gagne, Blackjack Mulligan) wasn’t wearing “the crimson mask.” I guess WCW’s policy on blood was that they could air it if the footage was twenty years old, but week-old blood-no way!”

Is that just the ineptness of WCW at its finest?

Well…compared to the next thing you wrote…

“About a week later, I got a surprising phone call from the people in television production. They wanted to do promos for my return match with Vader that would air on the following Saturday, and they needed me right away. “Oh yeah,” they added, before hanging up, “we need you to look the way you did after the match.”

“Hey,” I thought, “that’s just great.” I had offered them the opportunity to capitalize on a unique situation, and they’d been too squeamish, and now they’d reconsidered.

With the odd taping schedule WCW employed, however, the two matches were taped almost two weeks apart, even though they would air on consecutive Saturdays. By now, my wounds were all but healed. Now, in my book (yes, once again, it is my book), there is nothing quite as good as the real thing, but I was about to receive an A for effort. I must have looked like quite a sight as I barreled down Highway 75 in my ‘84 convertible, with one hand on the wheel and the other brandishing a skin removing square of sandpaper.

At the stop lights, I threw punches at the rubbed-raw cheekbone area for added emphasis.”

Did you ever think to tell WCW to pound sand…pun intended?

The show that has your first match draws a 2.1 rating. That was not bad for WCW at the time was it?

Well as you wrote the two week taping schedule means that the next match you’ll have with Vader will take place just 3 days before air…

From your book:

“The return match was a scary, eerie night that I’ll long remember. Before leaving home I wrote a note for Colette. It was essentially a last will and testament instructing her on what to do in case things didn’t turn out too well. Thank God she never had to read it. I hope you don’t think I’m exaggerating when I say that the ramifications of this match were tremendous and the risk of serious injury was extremely high. As the willing participant of a powerbomb on the concrete floor, I was putting myself in a precarious predicament. I was essentially letting the most dangerous man in the business perform the sport’s most dangerous move on a concrete floor. As mentioned earlier, I had seen Vader temporarily paralyze Joe Thurman with the move inside the ring that had some give to it.

I had seen that powerbomb literally knock out others, and as mentioned earlier, I had seen some kids quit the company rather than risk the consequences of the powerbomb.

The biomechanics of the powerbomb are simple-simply flip your bent-over opponent in the air as high as possible, and bring his back, neck, and head down to the canvas with as much force as possible. It can be scary to watch.

Something seemed wrong when I walked into Center Stage that afternoon. The hallways seemed a little darker and the atmosphere seemed a little heavier. Dusty called me into his office. “Just for the record, Cactus,” the Dream started, without his usual animation, “I don’t want you to do this.” I think by saying this, Dusty was relieving both his

conscience and any legal liability that the company might have.

“I appreciate that, Dusty,” I said, “but this is important to me.” Vader also tried to talk me out of it, but again I said no.”

What was it - the finish? The whole idea of the match? Do you think anyone could’ve talked you out of it?

Well after that lead in let’s go back and watch the match…sign back into Peacock…

WCW Saturday Night - Season 2 - Episode 17…

You cut a promo for the match…it’s not long into the episode…just 38 seconds in…and you wrote this

“I had an interview scheduled for the middle of the show. Dusty wanted to talk to me about it. Again he was uncharacteristically lowkey. “Cactus, when you give this interview, I don’t want you to think beforehand about anything you’re going to say. This is an emotional night-I want the fans to feel your emotion.” This was a valuable piece of advice, and with the knowledge that Dusty Rhodes was one of the great promo men in the business, I took it to heart. As good as many of my promos were, I had the habit of walking around backstage before interviews, practicing what I was going to say.

That night from Center Stage, I spoke right from the heart. I honestly can’t remember what I said, but that night, as is true in most cases, it’s not as much what you say that’s important, but how it’s said. I’ll always be thankful to the Dream for that small piece of advice, advice that would make my later ECW interviews so memorable.”

How important was Dusty to teaching generations how to talk into a camera - to a crowd - and draw money?

Now for the match…fast forward to 1 hour - 3 minutes and 47 seconds…3-2-1…

From the Torch

“Big Van Vader seriously injured Cactus Jack after powerbombing him on the concrete floor at a "WCW Saturday Night" taping last Wednesday, Apr. 21 at Center Stage in Atlanta. "There may never be another match for Jack," Jesse Ventura said as Jack was secured onto a stretcher after being powerbombed. Jack, real name Mick Foley, says he spent the night in the hospital after being diagnosed with a serious concussion.

Jack lost all feeling in his right arm up to his elbow and in his left hand. He still did not have complete feeling back in his left hand four days later and has had trouble sleeping. Because he has lost his equilibrium, he says cannot drive and certainly cannot wrestle. WCW does not have him booked for the foreseeable future. It appears he will be out of action up to six weeks. According to people at Center Stage the night of the taping, it appeared the entire dramatic episode that aired this past Saturday night was not completely pre—planned. Certainly it was not in the plans for the powerbomb to cause legitimate injury to Jack.”

I mean obviously it wasn’t the plan to have you knocked out…but you knew the risks…what was the companies reaction to all this?

“The rematch began with Jack knocking Harley Race out of the ring and going after Vader outside the ring. Vader quickly took over offense, clotheslining Jack into the entrance way to the seating area. Jack then rebounded with a chair shot to Vader's forehead followed by an elbow drop. Jack immediately took off Vader's leather face mask and began to gnaw on his forehead. Jack then dropped Vader over the steel barricade. As Vader lay prone, Jack slammed Race onto the floor and then dove off the ring apron onto him.

At 2:30, the action entered the ring for the first time just before a commercial break. After the break, Vader caught Jack coming off the second rope and dropped him sternly to the mat. Vader then came with an elbow drop, landing on Jack's groin area and sternum. Jack made a comeback with a series of right punches. Then, moments later, Vader took Jack outside the ring and with a giant thud, dropped Jack on the back of his head and neck with a powerbomb. Jack a moment earlier missed a somersault splash from the ring apron, landing on the mat below.

Paramedics and babyface wrestlers surrounded Jack as he was strapped to the stretcher and carried to an ambulance outside the arena.

Several reports have surfaced that WCW was planning on creating a storyline where Jack was out of action as a result of the powerbomb, with or without legitimate injury, thus building toward a big—money rematch. Others have suggested that the injury is not as bad as is being portrayed by WCW and Jack, who are playing up the injury as legitimate to further the angle. Either way, don't expect to see any more powerbombs on cement floors.”

I think it’s safe to say we didn’t see a powerbomb on a cement floor in WCW - I think ever again…

Is it scary to watch this back?

Did you ever talk to Vader about the match?

Mick’s book:

“The match itself was a solid piece of business. Many considered it to be better than the first, although, obviously, I couldn’t absorb the same shots to the face again. As the match drew to a conclusion, I attempted another Cactus Jack upside-down crack smash-the same move that had led me to victory a week before. This time, Harley jerked Vader out of the way, and I landed hard on the blue protective mat. As Schiavone and Ventura called the action, Vader threw back the blue mats, revealing the cold, concrete floor below. I was crossing myself as Vader picked me up off the floor. As he put my head between his massive thighs, I was talking out loud. “I love you, Colette, I love you, my tiny man.” Vader crouched down, and with all his might lifted me into the air. “My God, if he does that, he’ll kill him,” yelled Schiavone. A moment later, I hit the concrete. My initial reaction was strange. “That didn’t feel too bad-but I bet it didn’t look too good on TV.” Then my right foot and hand went numb.”

What do you think caused this? Just how you landed?

“I lay there for about forty minutes, while we waited for an ambulance. Now, a lot of fans speculated that I wasn’t as hurt as I acted, and to some extent, that was true. I probably could have moved, but the longer I lay there with the other wrestlers all around me, the more I thought I really was in trouble. After a few minutes, I became scared to even try to move my hand and foot. “How are you doing, you sexy thing?” asked Scorpio, in an attempt to get me to laugh. “Scarp,” I said softly, “I can’t move my foot.”

“Sorry,” replied Too Cold.

The ambulance finally arrived, and I was put on a stretcher. Several people in the audience were crying. I was placed in the ambulance, and of all people, Jesse Ventura came along for the ride. As the ambulance pulled away, with sirens wailing, the show faded to black. It was great drama. Was it staged? Yes, but in many ways it was real nonetheless.”

How guilty are you feeling considering what you wrote to Colette?

“I was wheeled into the hospital, and while strapped to the gurney, I was asked by an especially sensitive fan if I would pose for a picture with her. Upon admission, I was checked out thoroughly, given a battery of tests, including a CAT scan that revealed-you guessed it-a concussion. X-rays were taken and, fortunately, revealed no fractures.

The doctor informed me that I had suffered a severe blow to the back of my head, which had likely caused my brain to more or less “short circuit,” causing the temporary loss of sensation in my extremities. I was given a list of things to do and not to do, and was released at about 1 A.M.

Janie Engle, a WCW front office employee, drove me home. I was groggy, but all things considered, I felt pretty fortunate. In reality, Vader had actually taken care of me pretty well. He had followed through with me, and released me low, to ensure a

safer landing. If it had been a typical Vader powerbomb, things might have been a lot worse. “Pull over please,” I asked Janie, about a mile or two from my house. I proceeded to bolt out of the car and left remnants of my prematch meal all over Highway 575.”

Was this - at this point in time in your career - your worst injury?

“When I got home, Colette met me at the door and gave me a long embrace. I went upstairs and kissed my sleeping little buddy, then went into our bedroom, where against doctor’s orders, I fell asleep myself. I awoke to the ringing of the phone. “I just called to check on you,” said a weathered, slightly inebriated voice on the phone. It was Handsome Harley.

“Do you think it went okay?” I asked.

Harley paused and softly (for Harley that is) said, “Cactus, it couldn’t have gone any better if we’d done it a hundred times.” He spoke one more time before he hung up. “You’re the new Harley Race, kid.” That was the greatest compliment I have ever received.”

Was that ever topped for you Mick?

Ric Flair to Foley:

“You and Vader had the most brutal bouts I’ve ever witnessed, but your rematch didn’t raise the ratings at all. Nobody cares about you as a babyface.”

At that time, WCW’s flagship show was WCW Saturday Night. Also at that time, there were no quarter-hour breakdowns to more accurately determine just who was responsible for viewing patterns. In other words, Flair was holding my fifteen minutes on air responsible for the ratings of the entire two- hour show. He also failed to realize that ratings increases are more a result of trends and ongoing storylines than just one match. In my book Flair was wrong about the ratings. But he sure as hell was right about the brutality of my matches with Vader.”

Were you surprised the company tried to pin the failure of the product at the time on a 1 week build for you?

Looking back - knowing what we know now - you wouldn’t have done this right?

Do you regret it?

How does it feel watching it all back again?