STW - Armageddon 2007 [Show Notes] (Patreon)

This week on Something to Wrestle With…we’ll be looking back 15 years to Armageddon 2007!

#STWArmageddon2007

Coming out of Survivor Series the big takeaways are Randy Orton successfully defending the WWE Title against Shawn Michaels, and Batista successfully defending the World Title against Undertaker in a Hell in a Cell match, thanks to interference from the returning Edge (who had been gone since July after tearing his pec and forfeiting the World Title).

Let’s not forget of course the epic Great Khali vs Hornswoggle match…..

But the big story is the return of many stars….mainly Chris Jericho’s Save Us campaign finishes on Raw and he appears…from your boy…Dave Meltzer!

Observer 11/26/07:

“The show had been built around a distance runner running with a torch from the American Airlines Arena in Miami to the Bank Atlantic Center in Fort Lauderdale. It was to symbolize that the torch as a superstar was passed when Randy Orton beat Shawn Michaels at Survivor Series. As he finally ran into the dressing room to head for the ring, he was clotheslined by a figure, whose face wasn't shown.

Jericho then came out as Orton was in the ring doing an interview. Dressed somewhat like the 1982 Fabulous Ones, minus the bow tie, Jericho had a new look with short hair, and a completely different interview style.

He looked shockingly young, which is a good thing in this business when you are 37. His promo was more along the lines of a high-energy M.C trying to whip the crowd into a frenzy at the start of a rock concert than a pro wrestling interview.”

Meltzer would go on to say that his return campaign peaked a month or two earlier…do you think it dragged too long?

Also returning…well…a man in all the headlines this week…The Nature Boy!

“Flair will be back as a weekly performer to build for a major Wrestlemania angle. It is believed the storyline will be based in some form on the much-talked about idea Steve Austin came up for Flair's last big story at last year's Wrestlemania, although it's uncertain how this will work out and what tweaks have been made.

Time will tell how that will work out, in regard to working with top talent and getting interview time. It's not a secret that Vince McMahon felt the Flair interview style was too 80s arid for the past several years had been reluctant to give him much time.

Flair signed a new three-year contract with the company. Originally, Flair expected to leave wrestling as a performer when he retired, saying he'd do the Hall of Fame, end his career and leave on that high, and started up a new lending

business. While he is still doing that business, he will remain a full-time company employee after retirement.”

Well we know how the story will end at WrestleMania and what happened for the next 15 years…but did you know at this point in time it’s Ric vs. Shawn?

With stars returning there’s talk of wrestlers leaving as well. Meltzer would report that Carlito would give notice but was talked into staying with the company. It’s obvious it didn’t happen right away as he would lose to Hornswoggle on Raw…what were the issues with Carlito and why was it important for the company to keep him?

Also on the Raw after the Survivor Series we would see Shawn positioned with Mr. Kennedy. Was this one of those make or break moments for Ken?

Also we’re still dealing with Hornswoggle being Vince’s son - my god did Vince ever tie of this?

The Nasty Boys appeared in a dark match beating Dave Taylor & Drew McIntyre at the SmackDown tapings. How did this come to be?

From the Observer: “The Nasty Boys tryout may have gone well with the live audience, that popped big seeing them as the first stars on the taping and a surprise, but not so well backstage. They were criticized for playing to the crowd and delaying the show, and it was felt they worked too stiff with Mcintyre & Taylor. It also delayed the start of Smackdown, so they were running late and had to rush to get the ring ready for ECW by its live 10 p.m. start.”

Did the Nastys have a chance to return?

The Edge & Vickie Guerrero story begins about how they’re romantically involved. Who came up with this idea and did you know it was going to be that good in the long run?

The final segment on SmackDown would see Edge interview Vickie. Edge told Vickie she was the love of his life. Batista came out and eventually Undertaker came out. Undertaker gave Vickie a tombstone and she was stretchered out. The crowd was chanting "Rest in Peace" at Vickie…

Any reservations on Vickie taking the Tombstone?

At the building that night in Tampa - Matt Hardy’s appendix would burst. Do you remember this and how he was feeling?

The Raw from Charlotte on the 26th was based around the return of Flair and it was huge. But Meltzer would say…

“The creative on this was lacking, and this is an angle where the creative practically writes itself.

He talked about being at the stage of life where he has to look at the future and he can't wrestle forever. He talked about getting involved in politics and opening a finance business. Flair got choked up and the place went nuts for him. It wasn't like

the greatest reaction of the year or even a Hogan reaction, but it was a great reaction. Flair was low key, and then got hot and said he would never retire and started doing his dance and running off the ropes and such.

Vince came out and called Flair "a good piece of property" and told him the next time he loses will be his last match.”

Eventually Orton would come out and put him over before saying he would like to end his career - and Meltzer would continue with:

“The problems here were twofold. The biggest is Vince needed to have an explanation. If Flair was valuable, as he said, why would he place this stipulation on him, particularly since, if you want to go in the direction where Vince gets the heat for the angle, it should take creative all of 40 seconds to come up with a promo to make sense out of this, with Vince saying all the things he's never liked about Flair and why he wants him gone, but instead of firing him, he wants him to go out a loser.”

Did this make sense or is this just Dave being Dave?

Later on Flair would be talking to Arn Anderson & Barry Windham in the back. “They talked about as The Horsemen. There had been talk of doing something with them together but even when much of creative was for it, Vince nixed it, as the Horsemen is one of those things Vince hates because it was an idea that wasn't his.”

Did Vince hate the idea of the Horsemen? Do you think they were a draw?

Jeff Hardy and Triple H are to be programmed together and face off in a promo on Raw for their match at Armageddon. Was this finally the chance to push Jeff up to a top spot in your mind?

“Next came the Vince & Hornswoggle quarter hour. Vince told Hornswoggle that after Finlay kept surprising him, he's going to surprise Finlay with a match with Khali at Armageddon. He told Hornswoggle to go out and get him an ice cream sandwich. Hornswoggle left. Vince was on the walky-talky setting him up. There was a sign in the hall saying "free ice cream sandwiches" on a door, so Hornswoggle went in. It was an empty room with Carlito. They ran around until Carlito drew a black door in the wall and walked through it. Carlito then tried and nearly knocked himself out since he walked into the wall. As he was selling it, Ron Simmons saw him try and walk through the wall and said "Damn."

This wasn't as bad as that segment where Coachman wore the Khali wig, but it was among the worst segments of the year.”

Audience of one right?

Flair would eventually pin Orton with Jericho’s help…did he really need to beat Orton that first night?

Nattie Neidhart would work a dark match and lose to Victoria. Did you already see her potential back then?

“Main event was a title match with Batista no contest with Edge in 15:00. They were having a match and then the lights went out. They came on and Undertaker was in the ring. Undertaker then just stood there as Batista gave Edge a spear. Undertaker then gave Batista a choke slam. Teddy Long returned and said there would be a three-way for the title at Armageddon.”

Teddy Long is back playa! Did you like Teddy or Vickie more in this role?

From the Observer:

“After all his impending problems, between marriage issues and the upcoming lawsuit, it was not a surprise that Hulk Hogan would return to WWE.

What is a surprise is when and how.

Hogan returns for the 15th anniversary of Raw on 12/10 in Bridgeport, CT, basically as an ensemble cast member in a show that is planned on being booked around Vince McMahon. The announcement of Hogan was made as almost an afterthought.”

Do you remember the last minute nature of bringing Hulk back here?

Why do you think the 15th anniversary Raw was held on this date compared to January when it really was?

Meltzer would report Bret Hart would turn down another chance to appear for the company. Were you losing hope at this point it would ever happen?

Flair is pulled from the North Charleston show even after him & Orton had their match which saw the audience grow 1.2 million viewers. Was dealing with Ric always a headache when it came to this type of stuff?

“Backstage, Vince made the announcement of

Hogan, Foley, Bischoff, Stratus and Austin coming next week. It was done so nonchalant you almost thought he was just making names up. It was amazing as they couldn't have done less to promote the Hogan return.”

Were you hoping to advertise nostalgia but not make it the focus - even though that’s hard when it’s called the 15th anniversary show?

“Hornswoggle beat Coachman & Carlito in a handicap match in 1:16. This was a backdrop for JBL and Simmons to reunite as the APA, as Hornswoggle said he had bought himself protection. I swear I thought they were going to bring on some guy dressed like a giant condom. The APA came out. It got a reaction, but not nearly what you'd think. Besides, JBL plays total heel every week on Smackdown and here he's a face, which is just weird. And their beatdown on Carlito & Coachman looked terrible, but at least it was short enough. JBL laid out Coachman with a clothesline, and Coachman did not want to take it as he turned away from the move, making it look bad. They threw Hornswoggle on top of Coachman for the pin. JBL then did a promo talking about how he's on every weeknight with Neil Cavuto on the Fox Business Channel and mentioned he announced every Friday night on Smackdown. When he was done, Simmons said "Damn!" That's the easiest gimmick in history.”

You loved this shit didn’t you Bruce?

At the next set of ECW & Smackdown tapings Kofi Kingston is promoted as debuting! Crazy to see him 15 years later back in NXT being a tag team champion isn’t it?

Miz & Morrison would be put together and Meltzer would even compare Morrison to Gino Hernandez & Tully Blanchard. Would you make that comparison?

At SmackDown we see Michael Hayes in the VIP Lounge to plug the World Class DVD in the segment with MVP. He loved doing this type of stuff didn’t he?

At the 15th Anniversary Raw - we’d see the likes of Eric Bischoff, Trish Stratus, Steve Austin, Mick Foley, Lita, even Sunny appear along with a surprise of Rob Van Dam. How nerve wracking is it to put this type of show together and book all these guys?

“The show, which drew a 4.08 rating and 5.78 million viewers, was the highest rated episode of the show since the 6/18 show, which was coming off the Vince death angle. It was the highest rated Raw going against the regular season Monday Night Football since 2005.”

Did this make it seem like nostalgia was necessary to draw this type of number?

“Cody Rhodes would win his first title, teaming with Bob Holly to win the Raw tag titles from Lance Cade & Trevor Murdoch. It seemed designed more for Dusty Rhodes to hug his son, as Dusty was positioned more prominently than the new champions.”

How big a deal was it for Dusty to be involved in Cody’s first title win?

“When it was over, much of the talk regarded what Hogan said, as he talked about the WWE being the greatest organization in the world and came across like he was positioning himself for another comeback. He did an angle with the Great Khali, which at one time was planned for last year's Wrestlemania. He got a great response, but did not get the best response of the show or tear the house down like he did in his previous comebacks.

His interaction with Khali was terrible, such as Khali blocking punches he wasn't supposed to, and selling the blocked punches. They teased a slam, but you didn't get it, leaving things open ended for a later confrontation. Hogan never hinted at doing anything with Steve Austin, and left saying "Never Say Never, Ooo yeah," the last two words in a Randy Savage voice.”

This…is very odd looking back Bruce. Do you remember there being talk of Hogan vs. Khali at Mania?

Do you think Hogan was trying to shoot an angle with Randy Savage?

“But of the cameos, the only one we've heard talk about in regard to interest is Sytch. John Laurinaitis talked with her about doing segments on 24/7 and wanted contact information. She looked like a very attractive 35-year-old. But she showed more charisma walking to the ring than most of the women on the roster.”

How did Johnny Ace put this together?

On the show there would be a ladder match between Jeff & Carlito with Jeff winning. You really loaded up the whole show huh?

“5. Ted DiBiase won a legends Battle Royal in 4:06. Actually DiBiase wasn't even in the Battle Royal. Names included Al Snow (doing the Head gimmick), Bart Gunn, Doink the Clown (not sure who but not Steve Keirn), Repo Man (Barry Darsow), The Goon (Barney "Wild Bill" Irwin), Steve Blackman (getting his payoff for being loyal post-Benoit such as claiming he saw steroid use in wrestling in Stampede Wrestling but not in WWE), Pete Gas (not exactly high on the list of people you'd think about as a surprise), Bob Backlund (who Jim Ross tried to put over as a great champion while Backlund was doing his nutjob gimmick), Skinner (Steve Keirn), IRS (Mike Rotunda), Flash Funk (2 Cold Scorpio), Gangrel, Scotty 2 Hotty, Jim Neidhart (who looked like he hadn't stopped partying since the 80s), Sgt. Slaughter and finally Gillberg.

Nobody looked good but nobody was put in a position to look good. Rotunda, who is 49, was looking pretty heavy. He lasted until the end. Maybe the biggest pop was Scotty doing the worm. IRS threw out Slaughter to win. Di Biase then came out and gave IRS a wad of cash that he put in his loaded briefcase, and IRS stepped over the top leaving DiBiase as the last guy.”

How come no Brother Love?

“Eric Bischoff came out with Steve Martin hair. He was a complete heel, faking like he was crying and basically insulting everyone. He said the fans need people like him to reinvent the business constantly and keep it going. One time in 1996 isn't constantly. Chris Jericho came out. They played up the idea that Bischoff fired him in 2005. He insulted Bischoffs added weight and haircut. They went back and forth until Jericho punched Bischoff. Orton came out and attacked Jericho, but he came back and put Orton in a Boston crab. Orton was tapping. Jericho let him go and motioned like he'd be wearing the belt.”

Seeing Eric back in the fold had to be great did it not?

“8. Mr. Kennedy pinned Marty Jannetty with the downward spiral in 4:40. This was very far from the Jannetty return against Kurt Angle in a similar situation a few years back. He was moving a lot slower and people didn't care about him at all. Not good and really kind of depressing. The sad thing is when guys are clowns and didn't get over with work, you can bring them back and they can still be clowns. But when a guy was mainly a really good worker and they get old and can't work, they don't have much left. It's worse when it's a good worker who got by on his rock star looks and now he's old. Kennedy beat on him after until Michaels made the save. Michaels' was moving very gingerly down the ramp for his run-in. His knees are in the worst shape they've ever been. After Michaels ran off Kennedy, HHH came out and they did a mini-DX reunion that got over well.”

Marty Jannetty. Dude’s had so many chances…was this number 13? 14?

Vince would end up closing the show with Austin, Undertaker & Foley coming out with stunners and socko claws and tombstones…this was what people still wanted to see right? What they saw in 98 & 99?

“JBL may be returning as a full-time wrestler. There has been talk for several weeks about him giving up his announcing seat. Kevin Dunn has been auditioning people with Michael Cole if they need a new partner. I'm really surprised, because JBL has so much going in when it comes to investments and his spot on the Fox Business Channel that it surprised me he'd look to come back since the back in jury that retired him originally was significant…”

Why was JBL ready to come back at this point?

“The 12/7 Smackdown/ECW crew flight from Frankfurt, Germany to Zurich, Switzerland came seconds from a disaster that literally would have likely cost the entire crew their lives. As the Lufthansa flight was landing, a plane came out of nowhere on the runway right in front. The pilot of the plane carrying the wrestlers was thankfully not just alert but quick enough on the draw to do an immediate emergency takeoff just before what would have been a crash, to basically leapfrog the plane on the runway. One non-wrestler on the flight called it the scariest thing he had ever experienced in 25 years of flying. After the show in Zurich, which was the final night of the tour, everyone was seemingly back to normal with a lot of heavy partying before heading home…”

Do you remember hearing this story? This doesn’t get nearly the play the Plane Ride from Hell trip did…why is that?

“The other crew, in Iraq for the taping of Tribute to the Troops, saw a chopper carrying Malenko, Mickie James, Carlito, Jericho, JBL and Simmons get damaged in a landing and all six were stranded for five hours in a war zone in Tarmiyah, Iraq. They were in the middle of fires, smoke bombs, dead animals and razor wire everywhere, while hanging out with the soldiers in an unsecure location. . .”

This is some real scary shit isn’t it Bruce?

Armageddon is built around the beginning of the road to WrestleMania - and according to Meltzer there’s a bunch of creative changes before the show - how often would you sit down and see Vince change his mind on this type of major stuff in the months leading to Mania?

Armageddon features about 100,000 less purchases than Survivor Series. Why do you think that is? Do you think Survivor Series just drew off the brand name?

The show is a critical success according to the Wrestling Observer readers with 79% thumbs up!

The show is sold out in Pittsburgh with 11,000 paid…that has to make you feel good right?

“1. Rey Mysterio beat MVP via count out in 11:29 so MVP kept the U.S. title.

As far as bell-to-bell action, this was probably the second best match on the card, but it also had the worst finish on the card. Mysterio's first big move was a dive over ref Jim Korderas onto MVP. At one point in the match, after a Thesz press, Mysterio seemed to injure his knee. He sold it, yet it never played a part in the match storyline and MVP didn't work it. He protected it the rest of the way, but he seemed able to work on it a minute later. Mysterio did a jumping from the apron into a springboard top rope huracarana for a near fall. MVP came back with a hard running kick. Mysterio did a reverse DDT, but missed a 619. Mysterio came back with a huracanrana off the apron. Mysterio got back in the ring and MVP just stood there and refused to beat the count, in a sense, saving his title. ***”

Is this a bit of styles clash? Why is this always a finish?

“2. Big Daddy V & Mark Henry beat Kane & C.M. Punk in 10:33.

After watching the year's worst feud on ECW, I was dreading this match. But they were smart, in that both Henry and V are terrible when it comes to standing there and doing give and take close-range stuff. So they avoided what they were weak at. Crowd wasn't much into it. Early part saw V & Henry beat down on Punk. Kane hot tagged in, but soon was selling. It built to Punk's hot tag, and he did stiff knees in the corner on V, and then went for a springboard move, but V caught Punk on his shoulders and delivered a Samoan drop for the pin. **¼”

Were you even paying attention to ECW at this time? Did you have to apologize to Kane often during this time?

Was this the best rated match you think Viscera ever got from Dave Meltzer?

“3. Shawn Michaels pinned Mr. Kennedy in 15:16. They did a spot where Michaels stepped on Kennedy's hand, and Kennedy sold the hand, which played a part in the finish. Kennedy rammed Michaels' back into the post and started working on it. Michaels came back, including back dropping Kennedy over the top and dropping the elbow off the top rope. He went for the superkick, but Kennedy reversed him into a schoolboy for a near fall. Kennedy went for his forward fireman's carry drop, but Michaels reversed it into a Toyota roll for a near fall. Several more near falls until Kennedy went to punch Michaels with his bad hand, sold the idea he hurt it, and Michaels nailed the superkick and got the pin. ***½”

This is also just a lackluster match…what was Shawn’s opinion on Kennedy? Why was he just not well liked by the top talent?

“4. Jeff Hardy pinned HHH in 15:23 to get a WWE title shot at the Royal Rumble.

The story here is that Hardy was holding back with the idea it was a clean match, and HHH was trying to get him to take the step and fight him. The negative is the crowd was pretty quiet most of the way. It seemed they didn't want to take sides. They liked HHH more, but nobody wanted to boo Hardy, so they were kind of lifeless and it hurt the match a little. HHH worked the whole match to get the crowd behind Hardy, because Hardy working as the heel would have been a harder match to pull off. But the people didn't boo HHH at all, so the psychology didn't really work. Finish saw Hardy miss a swanton, and HHH went for the pedigree, but Hardy grabbed both of his legs and flipped over with a folding press for the win. ***1/4

HHH was very clever, in the sense the entire match was worked with the idea HHH was the star, and even after he lost, instead of showing disappointment or selling that he lost an important match, he left smiling, as if giving the "See, I can do a clean job" wink very similar to how Kevin Nash or Scott Hall would do when they used to lose matches in the WCW days.”

The build to Jeff being a big star - do you agree with Meltzer’s evaluation of what he’s saying Hunter pulled off here?

How hard is it to get two babyfaces over in this type of match without one being such a heavy overt heel?

“5. Fit Finlay pinned Great Khali in 6:02.

It was the weakest thing on the card, but it could have been a lot worse. It was never that really abysmal clueless Khali spots, and the only thing bad was when Khali did that one spinning kick that is the thing he does that usually looks good, and this time they were in the wrong position and Khali didn't really turn as much as just stuck his foot out. One stupid spot is that Khali went for the dreaded Khali chop early, but Finlay moved, and Khali chopped the post. A few seconds later, Khali was back chopping with that same hand and not selling it. Khali did a long nerve hold which is one spot hard to mess up on. He got the head squeeze on, but Finlay made the ropes. Finish saw Hornswoggle give Khali a low blow with a shillelagh behind ref Charles Robinson's back. Finlay then cracked Khali with a shillelagh shot of his own and got the pin. *¼”

Is Khali’s job at this point just to put everyone over do you think?

“6. Chris Jericho beat Randy Orton via DQ so Orton retained the WWE title in 15:05.

I thought, even with the finish, it was the best match on the show. Certainly the best worked body of a match. Crowd was quiet early but they ended up with the most heat on the show by the finish. They ended up outside the ring and Jericho charged toward Orton. Orton sidestepped him and as Jericho went by, Orton threw him into JBL, who was sitting at the Smackdown announcers' desk. JBL threw a fit. As Jericho got up, he shoved JBL away.

Orton later got the advantage and was going for the running kick. As he threw the kick, Jericho sidestepped him and got the Walls of Jericho on. Orton struggled to the ropes, but Jericho pulled him to the center. At this point JBL hit the ring and kicked Jericho in the head. Post match saw Orton lay Jericho out with the RKO. ***½”

JBL - Jericho is where this is going - but for such a big return of Jericho’s - to have this be the finish. I don’t know Bruce…has that feeling of being booked into a corner. Fair to say?

“7. Beth Phoenix retained the women's title beating Mickie James with a fisherwoman's suplex in 4:45. They had no chance. Crowd was dead coming off the title match and putting them on late in the show. The whole idea is they wanted to take the crowd down after a theoretical high so the main event would get strong reactions. In theory, it makes sense, although it didn't work on this night in practical application, since the crowd seemed burned out for the main event. James got several near falls toward the end and they did about as good as they could have. *¼”

Tough spot for the women obviously - but these two then and now can still go. Just hard to get going after that type of match and finish before is it not?

“8. Edge won the World title in a three-way over Undertaker and Batista in 13:00 of a no DQ match, a stip needed due to what they had planned.

The crowd seemed burned out after popping big for Undertaker, and to a lesser extent Batista's ring

entrance. Michael Cole announced the main event with Tazz, as they got rid of JBL, playing off his interference. I don't know what it is, but there's something about the Smackdown main event put on last that seems to hurt the show. The crowd thinks of Raw as the main brand and the Raw title is the main event. After already seeing the main event, this came off a little anti-climatic.”

Would you agree with that Bruce?

“It was the usual WWE style three-way with guys doing finishers and the third man doing the save. Batista powerslammed Edge and Undertaker made the save. Edge used a low blow and DDT on Batista and Undertaker pulled ref Mickey Henson out of the ring. Undertaker had Edge up for a power bomb but Batista speared Undertaker. As Batista went to pin Undertaker, Undertaker caught him in a triangle. When you talk about the most not over finisher by a superstar in history, it's Undertaker's triangle. The whole place went dead. The bell rang, and nobody even popped because nobody knew what he was doing even though he beat Khali with it on TV.”

Were you surprised this move didn’t get over more because you guys sure as hell tried!

“As it turned out, it was Edge who rang the bell, and Undertaker broke the hold, but Henson ordered that the match had to continue. Edge then speared Undertaker, and followed by spearing Batista, but Batista kicked out. Undertaker went for the old school on Batista, but as he came off, Batista drilled him with a spinebuster and then speared Edge out of the ring. At this point there were two Edge's, one of whom was one of the Major Brothers. One of them got nailed and Undertaker and Batista traded big moves. After a Batista clothesline, Undertaker did a reversal and used a tombstone piledriver on Batista. The real Edge then came into the ring and hit Undertaker in the upper back with a chair, and then did a second chair shot to the head which looked mistimed to where it barely touched, but that's for the better anyway. Edge then pinned a still-out Batista to win the title. Edge and the Major Brothers celebrated as the show went off the air.

***”

One of the more creative finishes we had only seen with the Doinks and the Kurt Angle switch before - was the Batista title run a disappointment looking back?

When this is over - was it obvious that John Cena needed to be back badly? Were you worried about the top level of the cards at this point?

Looking back - what did you think of the show? Thumbs up, thumbs in the middle, thumbs down?