Grilling JR - Building WWE Developmental [Show Notes] (Patreon)

This week on Grilling JR - we’ll be talking about how you would build the WWE developmental program - the stops and starts and everything in between!

Let’s get into it. The WWF at the time really always used the territories as their developmental. It goes back to when Vince would convince promoters to send in tapes of their shows for him to air on USA and end up signing the guys who were made to look like a million bucks is that right?

As the territories would close…the ability to get good talent without having to train them from the bottom up was very difficult was it not?

Would you say that the first real developmental home was the USWA & Memphis - I mean the most obvious one coming through there being the Rock…

What was it about Lawler and Jarrett and the USWA that people had trust in?

Also you could say ECW would be a defacto development system that would have guys “sent down” to learn a new hold or a fresh coat of paint as some would say. Did you have any issues with ECW and those types of things?

What was the process back then? Would you call up Jerry Jarrett or Paul Heyman and say…hey you’re getting this guy for X amount of dates and we’ll take care of the pay type thing?

Was there ever any risk involved in that? Was Vince ever worried?

Does the closing of the USWA towards the end of 1997 force a hand that the WWF had to invest in their own program or system? Do you remember being that the impetus?

The WWF created what was probably considered an in-house training facility…at the warehouse of Titan Towers in Stamford and Dory Funk Jr. is the man tapped to run it - as he would call it the “Funkin Dojo.”

Why Dory?

Pat Patterson also had a role in it as well right?

Let’s put this into sports terms - you need training camps to teach the athletes what they should be doing - and also when people get hurt you need to make sure they’re having a supervised rehab or work to get back into the ring. Why do you think it took so long for this type of thing to happen? Is it because it’s that sports entertainment mentality?

Do you think Vince was against that type of thing?

From the Observer in early 1998:

“WWF started its training camp under Dory Funk and Pat Patterson. At the camp were Marc Mero, Darren Drosdov, Tiger Ali Singh, Randy Blackbeard, Ahmed Johnson (who has said to have dropped 35 pounds to about 280), Mark Henry, Steve Blackman, Matt Bloom (a 6-7, 370 pound former football player at Pittsburgh who had some training with Killer Kowalski), Shawn Stasiak, Sean Morley, Adam Copeland, Kurrgan the Interrogator and Taka Michinoku. They want Michinoku to do more mat wrestling so he doesn't have to do as many flying moves per match, and he's also in for the Funks (Dory and wife Marti) to help better his English and to learn interview skills. Reports are that Copeland and Morley have been the most impressive. Several of them are going to work a WWF house show on 1/9 and a 1/10 independent show in New Hampshire.”

Jim those are some heavy names that come to be in the business. I don’t know who Randy Blackbeard was or ended up being but Mark Henry, Matt Bloom who turns into Prince Albert and is now running NXT, Sean Morley is Val Venis and Adam Copeland becomes Edge. This is a hell of a first class it it not?

“Thus far the camp is being considered a big success, run along the lines of the All Japan dojo where Funk used to train younger wrestlers including some of the best workers of this generation, at. Plans at present seem to indicate making this a regular deal.”

Was this just a realization of…we should’ve been doing this sooner?

Did anyone else over see it besides you? Was Vince involved or Kevin Dunn? Was there a name that would surprise us that was against this or for this?

Who would be the person recommending talent to come into the dojos? How did that list get settled and who was doing the reaching out?

From the Observer 5/18/98:

“The WWF is doing another camp this week under Dory Funk. Among those at the camp are Solofa Fatu, Mick Tierney, John Tenta, Paul Silva, Erin O'Grady, Vic Grimes, Shawn Stasiak, Matt Bloom, Andrew Martin, George Phillips, Emory Hale, David Heath (Vampire Warrior), Darren Drosdov and Dan Severn.”

Again - what a list this is. Solofa Fatu would become Rikishi, John Tenta obviously is the former Earthquake, Erin O’Grady would become Crash Holly, Vic Grimes would find fame in ECW with falling off a balcony with New Jack, Andrew Martin would be Test, Emory Hale would go to WCW and become The Wall, David Heath will be Gangrel and so on.

What were you looking for? Coachable? Was that the main aspect?

This doesn’t mean you weren’t still using other outlets to work with people. Obviously some people need real wrestling experience in front of crowds - so your Olympic Gold Medalist Kurt Angle heads to Memphis to work with Randy Hales and Power Pro Wrestling. Was this a Lawler deal with PPW?

Not everyone was a big fan of the Dojo as Jim Cornette would say:

“I hated the entire Dojo setting and found the wrestlers training with sounds of hammers banging and the nauseating smells of sawdust and paint was no way for a wrestler to learn the craft”

There were some drawbacks being in that facility right? Do you think the good outweighed the bad or as each camp took place…it was obvious there was something else that needed to be done right?

What were the camps costing the WWF? Was that a factor in this?

Cornette has always said to save his sanity he went to you and said why don’t you let me run a school and promotion in Louisville and have it all done correctly…is that how you remember it?

Was Jim ready to have a heart attack? Did you think this was your way of saving his life?

Danny Davis is running OVW at the time - so the plan is for Cornette to buy half the company and move down there and begin the relationship. What did Vince think of the idea?

Did you have any hesitation whatsoever?

It feels like after Dory ran the camps he would have a place - but his wife Marti seemed to be interfering and he wouldn’t be continuing. Is that how you remember it?

From the Observer 5/3/99:

“Dory Funk was released from his role as training camp instructor. The idea is that they are moving the camps to Louisville under Jim Cornette, when he moves there over the summer, and Danny Davis. Among those at this past week's camp were Jason Ahrndt, who was the star of the camp, Mark Henry (released by his doctor to wrestle but his knee isn't 100% yet), Tom Howard, Russ McCullough, Stefan Gamlin, Robbie Dicks, and Rico Constantino.

The idea in progress is to set up a minor league system where wrestlers will be sent to a Louisville circuit under Cornette, which would be like Class A baseball, and then move up to Power Pro in Memphis, which would be like AAA, before being brought up to the big leagues.”

Was that the original plan? Why Power Pro as the polishing off point? Did you think there was more stability there since OVW was just getting started?

Were there any issues - any issues at all - during the process of getting Jim the hell out of Stamford and down there?

Did Vince ever say - if I hear this or I hear that - I’m out?

What was Vince and Cornette’s relationship at this point in 1999? Were you the middle man a lot of times?

Cornette opens up in the summer of 1999. What was your process with him with talent? Was it a daily or weekly check in? Are you watching the shows?

Are you letting Jim know about talent you’re looking at?

Is he scouting talent as well?

The early class of OVW is always so highly regarded between Brock Lesnar, John Cena, Batista & Randy Orton. Was it just timing that worked so effectively? Would they ended up being as big as stars without OVW?

Were there talents that you sent to OVW that you thought were can’t miss and immediately Jim called you up and said - nope, no way, no how…

While OVW is getting started - the Memphis Power Pro Wrestling promotion folds and now the WWF doesn’t have a finishing school. Do you let Cornette know - hey you’re now the top program?

Is that an added level of stress for him and for you?

There were also affiliations at the time with IWA Puerto Rico and Ultimate Pro Wrestling. Why was it important to keep others involved? Still helps to learn from many places?

Were you worried about OVW getting too crowded?

What was Vince like during the first year of OVW? Was he constantly checking in? I’m sure he wasn’t watching the shows but was he asking about it and the talent.

There’s been an old line of saying - Don’t let Vince see someone too early. We know that happened with a lot of people - was this a more controlled environment for you not to worry about that?

Was Jim the person who would decide which talent would go to the WWF for dark matches?

Was it difficult with him running actual shows and storylines when you needed talent or do you think your relationship with him made it easier?

The purchase of WCW brings an upheaval to the developmental system as there are many contracts purchased from WCW that would require another promotion being added as a direct feeder. What led you to Les Thatcher and Heartland Wrestling Association?

For those of our listeners who don’t know about Les - what can you tell us about him?

Without having this system in place - there’s no way you would’ve bought all those contracts from WCW right?

It’s just a few months - and it doesn’t seem to be working out so well with HWA - why was that?

From the Observer 7/29/02:

“WWE made major cutbacks this past week to the developmental program, dropping its ties with Les Thatcher's Heartland Wrestling Association and dropping the contracts of Thatcher, Shane Nicholson (who ran the business end of HWA and was a full-time WWE employee because of it) along with performers Steve Bradley, E.Z. Money, Jon Heidenreich, Mike Sanders, B.J. Payne, Horace Hogan, Kim Neilsen, Jason Sugarman, Chris Kindred (Flash) and Craig Zellner (Race Steele) to go along with last week's cuts of Ron Waterman and Chad Collyer.

Former HWA developmental wrestlers Lance Cade and Charlie Haas are being moved to the OVW in Louisville, which will be the company's only developmental territory. The remainder of the HWA talent, Jon Hugger (Johnny "The Bull" Stamboli), Matt & Eddie Anoai (Ekmo & Kimo, the Island Boyz) and Shannon Moore have recently been introduced on television to the WWE main roster. In addition, WWE is set on introducing Victoria, Barry Buchanan (re-introduction) and Shelton Benjamin as television characters.”

Is this a disappointment to you?

Is this a Vince call?

“Overall the word was that Jim Ross, who heads the developmental program, was ordered to cut budget roughly in half because of the downturn in company business.”

This is just a product of that correct?

“The cuts were explained to most of the guys involved as more budgetary than a reflection

of being dissatisfied, and there had been rumors for weeks of this coming. Reportedly, Nicholson had checked with WWE officials when the rumors started and was assured they were just rumors.”

Do you think that’s true? Who was Shane Nicholson do you remember?

“In 2000-2001, the company spent $1.1 million for the fiscal year on its developmental program. There was no specific figure listed in any company documents released at this point for 2001-2002 listing how much was spent on developmental.

At the time, they were either providing wrestlers or partially funding four territories, a Memphis program, which kept switching around before they pulled out completely and made the deal with Thatcher, OVW, UPW and IWA Puerto Rico.

That number is down to one.”

That’s a lot of money to be allotted out Jim. Was it tough to balance it all?

Was it tough to work with people considering how close you & Jim were compared to the others and that’s why OVW was the only one left standing?

I firmly believe there’s nothing more important than the future and if you’re not spending it now to make more later - that’s just bad business. Did Vince see it the same way?

Once again from the Observer:

“With the state of the industry as it is, with new stars being badly needed worse than perhaps any time in the history of the business without any companies left for WWE to raid, this is a program that needs to be expanded, not constricted.

The company idea is to have a 20-man developmental roster based in Louisville, with weekly reports and more frequently sending road agents and office people to Louisville to keep tabs on the talent.”

Was this always an issue - not having enough hands on deck?

I mean it’s tough to disagree with Meltzer at this time though right? The business is bleeding for new stars since the WCW/ECW deaths - and if you’re relying on just independent promoters you’re not going to get very far are you?

Is that why you so heavily leaned on the likes of Gerald Brisco to find and scout collegiate athletes?

Did Cornette find it harder to work with them or easier?

It’s always been said if you find someone who’s super green you can mold them into what you want - but someone with a lot of training can be difficult to re-train…where do you stand on that issue?

“The problem is, this is a funny business and you never know who or what will make it. The more people in developmental, the better the odds of coming up with that elusive blue chipper. Of course, there are limits in what you can spend, but with the exception of somebody like Lesnar, for whom WWE had to outbid WCW and New Japan for when he came out of college, the developmental deals are relatively cheap.”

How cheap were the deals at the time do you remember?

“In addition, the company needs to be more aggressive in recruiting top athletes. New stars are not only badly needed today, but will be even more badly needed two and three years from today. While he didn't know it at the time, it was the recruiting around the world by Eric Bischoff and to a greater extent Paul Heyman that led to the success of Jericho, Benoit, Guerrero, all three Dudleys, Misterio and Tajiri, all of whom except possibly Jericho and Benoit, would have been turned away at the door by some current standards. Lesnar was a WWE recruit that everyone in wrestling wanted after he placed second in the NCAA's as a junior because of his charisma and look as a college wrestler. Cena walked on at UPW. Orton was the proverbial wrestling family member who clicked. Nathan Jones, who would have made it had he not had legal problems and couldn't come to the country, but is now a star in Japan, came through UPW.”

The business was drying up so to speak with a lot less money being made. Between the likes of TNA who had no feeder system besides the indies, companies like Ring of Honor trying to build up a brand before anybody poached their talent, it’s not as easy as it was just 2-3 years before. How difficult a transition is it for the company?

“The less affiliate systems, and the less people looking for charismatic freaks, the less stars in the future. I don't know enough about aspects of the WWE budget, and how the $1.1 million that was spent a year ago went, but that seems like a tiny price when the future of the company is at stake. At the same time, there are going to have to be cuts.

With business being down and no general direction, the entire developmental system and call-ups have become an exercise in frustration. There is the constant amazement of seeing Jackie Gayda or Christopher Nowinski being pushed on television while others languish in developmental.”

Was that an issue with some of the talent when you had people coming in from Tough Enough going straight to TV? Did you have an issue with that or did you understand the nature of the beast?

“Steve Bradley was having matches with Kurt Angle three years ago in Memphis when he was the Flair and Angle was the Sting. He's still only 26. He was the constant source of amazement, because not only was he the best worker of the developmental crew (aside from someone like Kanyon), but was also a strong promo and was in great condition.”

Steve Bradley sadly is no longer with us but at this time it was Bradley & the likes of Reckless Youth Tom Carter who were signed, and seemed to have these great matches and languish in developmental. You needed good hands to teach - but those two seemed like they were destined to make it to the roster. Do you remember either of them just being looked at at just good hands?

Was there anybody back then that you were shocked was never called up that you thought could’ve been something?

“There has been a much-talked about systematic problem, where both Thatcher and Danny Davis are training wrestlers for Mid South Wrestling in the 80s, instilling old-school values and training, when the WWE is something completely different, and nobody is quite sure these days what it is trying to be. Due to the level of the full-time WWE competitors, most of whom are very good workers, made better by working with good people up to 200 nights per year, it is impossible for a developmental system, where guys work, if they are lucky, 100 to 125 matches a year against generally equally inexperienced talent and before smaller crowds, to walk in and be as proficient as most of the crew.”

Is this a fair assessment? Was the training too old school?

“Because this is a business where its life-blood is new stars, it creates the secondary problem that we're seeing. Whether it be Brock Lesnar, John Cena, Randy Orton or Dave Bautista, they are not going to walk in and be as good as the crew that is there. Angle is a once in a lifetime freak, not what anyone should aspire to being able to create. But politics and paying dues create resentment and it's a system that is getting more frustrating as economics collapse and new superstars are needed and there are no top guys in other territories that have gotten stale and can be raided to create fresh top match-ups.

There has been in-fighting that the developmental territories aren't creating marketable stars. The counter is that when the guys are brought in, they aren't given effective pushes and are doomed to failure.”

Was there a constant battle between what was coming out of developmental and what creative was doing? Was there a better way to do business do you think?

“Thatcher in particular had a tough job. Even though well liked by many, he was given a crew of wrestlers trained in a fast-paced high-spot oriented WCW style at the Power Plant, who had already gotten habits instilled in them. Some had already had a taste of stardom and had impressive performances on television for brief periods of time. Then, Thatcher was given the job of re-training them in a style that WWE itself doesn't use. And then he, Cornette and Davis had to keep morale up and try to explain to the trainees why Bradley, who was everything they wanted everyone else to be, was still in developmental, while Nowinski and Johnny the Bull were getting a chance. And ultimately, the biggest problem of all, explaining why management and coaches wanted all the young guys to get off steroids, occasionally even testing and also advising them to do so, while at the same time the guys who get the opportunities and survive the cuts for the most part, were the ones with the best bodies.”

I mean it’s hard to disagree with that is it not?

“The feeling was that wrestlers were showing more improvement in OVW, and it also had the advantage of being in the system longer, was considered the model developmental facility, and had produced a few wrestlers that are being pushed, from scratch. HWA wrestlers worked more dates, but the TV wasn't as well structured because they didn't have a Jim Cornette putting it together.”

It’s hard to live up to the Cornette standard, isn't it? Do you think the guys sent to HWA had that going against them?

How did the relationship go from that point forward? Was it something you had to really monitor with Jim?

Were there any blowups that Vince caught wind off you had to fend off?

Was there any talk with anybody else about adding more?

Putting the developmental system in place…is that one of the things you look back on at the time in WWE and reflect fondly on it?

Do you think it laid the ground work for the eventual NXT?

When John Laurinaitis replaced you as the head of talent relations - did you think him & Cornette would be getting along?

Did you know that relationship was doomed to fail? Did you give Cornette any warnings or heads up on Johnny? Or vice versa?

Could you imagine anyone besides Cornette managing developmental?

When Cornette has his blowup with Santino Marella regarding the Boogeyman - you knew at that point everything was going to change right?

You never stopped being involved in scouting talent through any point is that correct?

What was that process?

There’s a lot of changes that go on once you leave - between Deep South Wrestling with Jody Hamilton becoming one…Mike Bucci becoming involved…and eventually that also closes. What was the issue with trying to find success after you left do you know?

Florida Championship Wrestling starts up in June 2007 as the next new developmental territory, run by Steve Keirn. When was the first time you visited there? Was it before it became NXT?

WWE ended its relationship with OVW in 2008:

Observer 2/18/08:

“John Laurinaitis made official on 2/7 that WWE was cutting all ties with Ohio Valley Wrestling.

The decision was expected. WWE had clearly lost interest in the territory, with almost all the new signees being sent to Florida. The feeling was that with much of the talent and management living in the Tampa area, it was better for a developmental group to run there. In addition, with all the money WWE had spent in getting the FCW territory off the ground, they needed to be able to corporately justify it by having it as the home for all the developmental talent. Some time back WWE sent a press release out saying they expected the new Florida Championship Wrestling promotion to have 70 wrestlers under developmental contract, and from that point on, it appeared OVW's days were numbered.

At a meeting with the wrestlers, Laurinaitis and his main assistant, Ty Bailey, told them that nobody would be let go (although head OVW trainer and booker Al Snow was then let go) and all talent will be moved to FCW, which they want as a full-time territory, running several shows per week, starting at the end of the month. The wrestlers in OVW will remain there for a few more weeks to finish up storylines and drop titles in the ring.”

Jim - when you hear about this - what’s your reaction? Is it sad for you?

“The idea of 70 wrestlers being trained together in one warehouse with four rings set-up was called "Fast Food wrestling training" by one person familiar with the project. It had been a source of contention between Laurinaitis and OVW for some time because Laurinatis wanted to have two rings in OVW with training going on simultaneously giving people more ring time. Those in OVW argued, strongly, against it. Tom Prichard was a major opponent to the multiple rings in camp, and it was a small part of the reason he ended up being fired at one point. While guys can get more time in running the ropes and doing athletic drills with more rings, between the noise and the split group, when it comes to learning lessons of how to work, you simply can't get enough hands-on instruction in a class of that many people with so much going on at once.”

Did you know about these issues? Was it something you agreed with?

“OVW at first was a pretty significant priority with the company since it was Ross' pet project. They would send top stars there every few weeks to help train the young wrestlers and work the TV shows and big shows. Even Steve Austin, Undertaker, Kane and Mick Foley worked some of the bigger shows, including Austin drawing 5,000 fans for a show at the Louisville Gardens. It helped OVW television greatly when name wrestlers would appear, and with initially strong communication, they knew long in advance, so would book storylines to make sense when the top stars came. With the exception of The Rock, HHH and Shawn Michaels, virtually all the top WWF/WWE stars of the past decade at one point or another worked on OVW shows.”

Looking back is this one of the fondest things during your run in talent relations?

“There were always people critical of it and it survived numerous times it would be axed. Sometimes Vince McMahon would lose his cool over something and decide to shut down all of developmental, but then be talked out of it because the independents, which focus on smaller guys and a completely different style, weren't developing talent that would do what WWE wanted. HHH was a heavy critic of the program, even during its heyday, because much of the talent would come in and it was just a huge step from working before 300 people and 10,000 people, that he'd say Cornette and Davis weren't teaching the wrestlers how to draw money.”

Was this a constant and consistent battle with Vince?

Did Hunter ever talk with you about it or do you think that was after your involvement?

“After a decade, OVW was the only program that WWE, in the end, didn't consider disastrous. With Cornette handling the booking and Davis handling the training, the program turned out future mainline stars like John Cena, Brock Lesnar, Batista and Randy Orton, although Batista bad mouthed his training, once saying he learned more in a few days from Fit Finlay than in his two years in OVW.”

Was this a common issue or complaint you dealt with?

“I've always thought a company as big as WWE should have several developmental territories in different parts of the country and rotate talent every nine months. The more different systems and different trainers someone has, the more well-rounded a performer he can become. I'd think you'd want something in Toronto and Southern California, for very different reasons. For whatever reason, the Toronto area has developed a lot of wrestlers that are currently top stars, probably because pro wrestling in that city still has a more "acceptable" reputation than in most major U.S.cities. Southern California is where a lot of aspiring actors, bodybuilders and good-looking people move to become stars, and as long as they are so strong on looks being a prime prerequisite for stardom, that's where they should have a presence set up for both recruiting and training. The original idea when developmental territories were set up was to rotate the talent a few months in every territory, so they'd learn by working in front of different fan bases and be more seasoned when brought up, in an attempt to duplicate how the old territorial system in pro wrestling worked.”

Is this what you think it should’ve been all along and it just didn’t work out that way? Could it had been managed correctly and efficiently like this?

You would go down to FCW during that time and provide commentary and continue scouting is that correct?

What was different about FCW compared to OVW?

NXT was originally as a TV show created to replace the failed WWE version of the ECW brand and started in February 2010. The program featured rookies from FCW competing to become members of WWE's main roster…did you watch or see any of the NXT brand when it was on SyFy? What did you think of the concept?

In June 2012, WWE ceased operating FCW, and instead started running all of its developmental events and operations at Full Sail University under the NXT banner.

You wrote at the time about the final FCW taping, that he did commentary for:

“"The atmosphere Thursday night at the last FCW TV taping was intimate and exciting from the sell out, turn away crowd. As much as the crowd delivered the kids delivered more. I'm amazed at the teamwork and team spirit these young talents possess. It's refreshing and motivating even for an old veteran like me. Lots of kids stood out. Rollins, Steamboat, Cesaro, Ohno, Bo Dallas, Bray Wyatt, Brad Maddox, Ascension, Big E Langston, Jason Jordan, Paige, and several others. Loved the Dean Ambrose vs William Regal. bout that had a shockingly, real, physical conclusion”

Was it ready to take another step up with the transition to NXT?

Out of the talent you wrote about, you see the likes of Seth Rollins, Cesaro - now Claudio Castagnoli, Bray Wyatt, Big E, Jason Jordan, Paige … and even the final match for FCW of Ambrose vs. Regal - still have the effects on the business today 10 years later…that’s what you want in a developmental system right?

You would announce NXT at Full Sail for about 6 months with Regal & Byron Saxton - what did you think of that experience and did you enjoy it?

The WWE performance center in Orlando officially opened on July 11, 2013…was that what you always wanted developmental to be?

Anything you would change looking back?

Do you think AEW needs something along these lines?