Grilling JR - Survivor Series 2002 [Show Notes] (Patreon)

This week on Grilling JR - we continue our look back at 20 years ago…and Jim we are knee deep in Katie Vick…we left off at No Mercy…and well…

I’ll let the Observer take it away:

In a blatant attempt to create controversy and further enhance the character of Raw’s chief antagonist, Triple H, last night’s Monday Night Raw on TNN (rated TV-14 LVD) presented an alleged act of necrophilia.

Triple H, poorly disguised as his chief adversary Kane, presented a skit in a funeral home using a mannequin that simulated the body of Kane’s former girlfriend, Katie Vick.

WWE Executive Producer Kevin Dunn, stated that numerous warnings to WWE viewers about sensitive subject matter did air prior to the segment. “While the subject matter is sensitive, on balance this was an attempt at dark humor capitalizing on the popularity of programs such as CSI, Six Feet Under and X-Files,” said Dunn.

So this week’s attempt to create mainstream appeal by a company which has burned out its flame was to have HHH go to the funeral parlor, open a supposed casket, take off the bra and panties of a supposed dead woman, take off his own clothes while wearing a Kane mask, and hop into the casket. He then portrayed himself having sex with the dead woman, leading to the punch line, “Oh my god, I really did it.” As mush came out of the head, he said, “I really screwed her brains out.”

Live in Nashville before one of the smaller Raw crowds in years, fans booed the segment, with loud chants of “refund” during the commercial break. For a company that claims to listen to its audience for direction, it sounded like a message. Then again, the constant chants of “What” as Kane was supposedly pouring his heart out and the lack of heat for their PPV match after all this time was devoted in a unique way of not getting it over should have already done the same thing.

JR - is this the worst segment in professional wrestling history?

Meltzer would continue: “It was fascinating watching the show, because such a game was being orchestrated. The whole idea of the sketch was not to promote an angle or get over a character. By the verbiage used on the broadcast, it was clear the idea for an attempt to garner controversy. Heat the new fashioned way. Jim Ross was talking about how they’d hear so much about it. Jerry Lawler was picking fights with the internet nerds. For years they used to fear what Phil Mushnick would say next. This segment was designed for the Mushnicks and the critics to react. But thus far, it seemed they didn’t care. The more Lawler ignored the product at hand and Ross kept trying to utter the parody of the Tom Hanks’ line from “A League of their Own,” saying, “there’s no necrophilia in wrestling,” “there’s no semen in wrestling” you could see it was a game of how many times they could say those words to shock the audience. But the words meant nothing. The company, with as much talent as any company in history, has become a sad parody of itself. Lawler has gone from hip and entertaining to aging and creepy. It’s impossible for the serious angles, if there were any, to have any impact because he sells the most potentially offensive skits as comedy. Ross is in a dead position. He’s an announcer known for calling great matches, having no great matches to call. He’s caught between trying to maintain the drama that sells great confrontations and being placed in a comedy vein that makes him foolish to try. By the end of the show, he was joking when Ric Flair climbed the top rope for his trademark getting slammed off the top, he made comedy of it, noting Flair has never successfully come off the top rope in 20 years and that if the guy didn’t slam him, he wouldn’t know what to do. It was feeling like Howard Cosell, just a few years after his peak as a national institution on Monday Night Football, hosting a horrible ABC variety show that was an ugly public flop.”

Were you just frustrated about what you were announcing at this point?

“While WWE claims these aren’t desperate times, their actions and product contradict that, as do their declining business fortunes. This is a writing staff that is in way over its heads trying to please a boss who has forgotten what he was once great at--taking people with limited talent and finding something in them to make them superstars. Instead, he’s got the most talented roster he’s ever had, but can’t make anyone into stars, and has murdered the star power of people who were at one time draws through a combination of overexposure and bad angles.

When HHH and Kane came out for their main event match, there was no special heat. It was even funnier watching two men in a feud spilling out to that level, as they stood in the corner waiting for a tag. They’ve completely killed Kane’s character just a few weeks after his return as a fresh character due to a torn bicep. HHH doesn’t realize he’s killing his own character as well. And if anything could be more apropos, they ended the show with a brawl in the parking lot, and Kane throwing HHH in the trunk of his car, threatening to screw him either before or after he kills him. As he drove off, the trunk opened up. Right on camera. Stuff like this only used to happen on WCW programming. Just seven days removed from working for the company for 12 years, Bill Moody (Paul Bearer) wrote about ten minutes after the segment ended on the Wrestling Classics message board, “I am horrified! I never thought that I would ever be proud to say that I do not work for Vince McMahon any longer.”

Are you surprised to see someone like Paul Bearer call this out?

“But there will be, and has been over the past 18 months, a huge audience leaving over presenting bad television. Two hours of burned out characters who aren’t over, with no effort to allow any of them to get over, is far more damaging than an angle that could be forgotten within a week, except the company is probably so clueless as to think because people were talking, that it was a success, and to replay and harp on it for weeks. What may be worse in the long-run is while there is evidence this direction isn’t working, it’s not strong enough to convince anyone to stray from the new course. Which means more of it. There has been little good on Raw for a long time, and the highlight of last week’s show, the Randy Orton NFL films style video, wasn’t there. TNN, which made a public comment about the HLA angle on 9/9, which was a ratings failure, was quiet on the subject. WWE had sent footage of the controversial segment up on satellite for its international broadcast partners to monitor about an hour before the show. TSN made the decision to cut away as soon as HHH fondled the breast. In Australia, where they haven’t edited a Raw show for content in many years, they cut away at roughly the same point. It is likely a similar decision will be made for the European version of Raw when it airs later in the week.”

If you know this is going to be bad…and gross…and I know it’s for an audience of one…but to take this measure…you’re just asking for it right?

Also on this episode of Raw - we would see Big Show defeat Rosey & Jamal & Rico in a three-on-one…which really just defeats the whole 3 Minute Warning gimmick and time to show the investment in Big Show is one they need to do. But Meltzer points this out:

“This was also Jamal’s punishment, since he did the job to a choke slam, for hurting Patterson last week. I wish they’d punish guys off television because the punishment matches almost always make for awful TV. Bischoff then traded Show to Smackdown. They never on Smackdown said who Show was traded for. Since none of the Smackdown guys were missing, either they’ve made up a new meaning for the word trade.”

Time for Show to have a fresh start - but what do you remember of Jamal - the future Umaga - hurting Pat Patterson?

“Kane & RVD beat Flair & HHH in 12:21. What is Flair doing wrestling on TV every week? Match was bad. Crowd wasn’t into it. Flair and Van Dam were a lot worse than the night before. Ross was apparently being paid a bonus every time he used the words semen and necrophilia. Kane and HHH brawled to the back, leaving RVD to use the rider kick, rolling thunder and frog splash for the pin. They picked things up backstage with Kane pounding on HHH backstage and into the parking lot where Hurricane had set up a getaway car with an open trunk. Kane eventually choke slammed HHH on the hood and put him in the trunk.”

Was that you saying s emen and necrophilia on purpose to put over how fucking stupid this all was?

Smackdown 10/24 in Memphis:

Rikishi was dancing after his match when Show arrived and choke slammed him, and then challenged Lesnar to a WWE title match.

What did you think of the decision to make Show the next #1 contender for Brock instead of someone like Angle or Benoit? Was the thought process there was more to do with Brock before you got there with either of those two?

“There was some interesting announcing byplay picked up by people with backhaul feeds. As most people know, on most Smackdown shows (the exception being the San Diego show where Cole was miscalling moves left and right) Ross is in Cole & Tazz’ earpieces giving them advice (On Raw, Vince is doing the same job for Ross & Lawler). Anyway, Ross told Cole to put over the Undertaker-Lesnar match as one of the most violent matches in WWE history. Cole then asked about the verbiage, because they are banned from using the word violent on their broadcasts. There was a discussion, and Cole ended up calling the match one of the most intense and I believe disturbing matches.”

Jim - how does this all work back then? Is Vince directing you to direct Cole?

“Edge & Mysterio beat Chavo & Eddy in a really good match when Mysterio used a springboard leg drop on Chavo, who was pinning Edge at the time, and switched the pile. Ross was in Cole’s ear telling him to quit referring to Mysterio as “Rey Rey.””

Did you really enjoy doing this directing or was it just part of the gig?

From the Observer:

“There were a lot of talks over the past week regarding a match between Brock Lesnar & Lennox Lewis, including setting up some preliminary rules, guidelines and strategies. Late in the week, Vince McMahon called up the Nevada State Athletic Commission and said they were attempting to put together a match and would like it to be sanctioned and held in most likely Las Vegas, although he made it clear it was just in the preliminary negotiation stage. The sanctioning would be done to basically guarantee to the public that the match, as well as the undercard, would all be legit. The repercussions of both having it sanctioned by the Nevada commission as a real match, and having gambling on the outcome, and then working it, would be far too severe for either McMahon or Lewis to risk perpetrating that kind of a fraud as could be done in a non-commission state or in Japan. The plan was not to do this match and the proposed Kurt Angle vs. Michael Moorer bout on a regular pro wrestling PPV show, but on a separate PPV event with more of a boxing title fight feel.However, McMahon’s timetable of a match in February, as a way to set the stage to lead into Wrestlemania, didn’t fit in with Lewis’ schedule.”

What could this had been and how likely would this had happened?

“Nathan Jones will be getting a ten-day look relatively soon. The plan is for him to work two weeks of house shows as well as some dark matches at television and at that point they’ll decide what to do with him. With the exception of the fact he’s already in his mid-30s, he’s tailor made for the company’s tastes as a huge guy with a good body and a decent amount of charisma and at least strong interview potential since he can speak and has done acting in Australia. The downside is he’s very green and if he’s put on TV now, people will see through him, but he’s got far more potential than Batista”

Was that the thought process from those in the office that Nathan Jones could be bigger than Batista at this point?

From the Observer:

“After a week of controversy designed to garner mainstream attention, which didn’t happen, and build ratings, the 10/28 Raw ended up being the least watched episode of Raw since early 1998. While it was the third lowest rated live episode of the show in that time period with a 3.45 rating, the total viewers of 4.34 million was less than the 4.35 million viewers on the 9/9 show, which did a 3.40 rating.”

This is just flat out rejection of the current product from viewers is it not?

“Vince’s reaction to the negativity was to get his defensive posture up strongly, some saying almost to a scary degree, including an inter-office memo to the people in creative mid-week saying that they were going to continue the course and written in a very smartass fashion to those who disagreed. In the memo, McMahon cited that the quarter hour with the angle was the highest rated quarter hour on the show. Of course, that’s unbelievably shallow logic, because it was guaranteed to be the highest rated segment since the first half of the show built toward it. People didn’t know ahead of time what it was going to be, and even if they did, the car wreck factor would have generated a curiosity look. The fact that 11% of the viewing audience (565,000 viewers) turned the show off after the angle is what should have been looked at, and whether the rest of the show went up or down. An 11% viewership loss is a rare occurrence over a 15 minute period.”

Is this just a misread from Vince?

Also on this Raw:

Keibler is now Test’s manager, using the term public relations expert. She said since Hogan has Hulkamaniacs and Kane has Kaneanites that he should have a group of fans. I think everyone watching figured where this was going faster than it took them to write it. So Test was in the ring saying “Hi to all my testicles.”

We’re just leaning all the way into this aren’t we?

“The Elimination Chamber gimmick match, was said on Raw by Bischoff to be a combination of Survivor Series, Royal Rumble and War Games in a structure currently being built. It’ll be a six-way elimination match for the Raw title with HHH, Michaels, Booker, RVD, Kane and Jericho.”

Now this JR - is something we could all get behind. The structure is one of those amazing ones that is still being used to this day. When you hear about this idea and see it…it’s awe-inspiring isn’t it?

“Kane beat HHH in a casket match in 11:15. Dull match with not much heat. Finish saw Michaels came out of the casket and superkick HHH. Kane than choke slammed him and threw him in the casket. Fans popped big for Michaels.”

It was time to get the hell away from all of this wasn’t it?

Halloween Smackdown:

Cena dressed as Vanilla Ice, debuting his rap gimmick.

Bischoff kissed Stephanie, who ended up liking it. I always figured that was where the storyline was going, that Bischoff would turn Stephanie against Vince and end up with her and we can do Vince vs. Stephanie & Eric as the top feud. Feuding owners. You know. McMahon family hating each other.

The launch of John Cena and his being saved from being released has always been the story - but Bischoff kissing Stephanie…yeeesh.

“WWE announced this past week the signing of Scott Steiner, 40, to a contract on 10/22.”

The negotiations with Scott - any concerns about his previous behavior in WCW or injuries? What were your expectations of him coming into the roster?

“The original plan for the Survivor Series main event was Lesnar vs. Hogan. Hogan refused to put Lesnar over a second time and they had a meeting where the two leading candidates to put Lesnar over ended up being Show and Benoit. When Vince panics, they go with size. Of the two, from a business standpoint, neither was going to draw any extra buyers at this point. Of course, Benoit would have the better match, but I guess the idea of the visual of Lesnar doing power moves to Show may make up for the fact the two on paper won’t be able to do the quality of match people expect out of main events.

They did a good job of heating Show up on Smackdown. It also appears that Lesnar is about to be turned face because of how Undertaker put him over during the interview and how he’s clearly the babyface in the Show angle. Eventually, that ends the Lesnar-Heyman partnership because the babyface manager role historically is a kiss of death.”

Show as the backup plan - was this the reason for the shift in Lesnar/Heyman’s gimmick?

The next week on Raw on November 4th and you can describe it as more “conservative”:

Batista now on Raw as Dave Batista and defeated Justin Credible.

The sky was the limit for Dave wasn’t it?

“Trish vs Victoria in a hardcore match announced for Survivor Series.

They’ve given Victoria this psycho movie character. Stratus pinned Ivory in 3:19 with what was purported to be a bulldog. Victoria was at the broadcast position with Ross & Lawler, but when they’d ask her a question, she wouldn’t say a word. After the match, she fired a bottle of water at Trish and that girl has an arm on her. Perfect strike and then they had a pull-apart. Backstage, Terri asked Victoria if after she calmed down, she could interview her. Victoria pulled Terri’s clothes off, which was as risque as things got on this week’s show.”

The women are about to take a big step at the Survivor Series with the hardcore gimmick…were you happy to see them being presented in a tougher light instead of the bra & panties gimmicks?

“Randy Orton barged in with the RNN update. Funny concept but they really had no new material for him this week. Still, anything to get new talent over at this point is a positive.”

It’s really amazing to look back and see Randy, Batista, Cena & Brock - pillars of the WWE to be built on at the time - in various stages in their careers. This is a credit to the developmental system at the time as well was it not?

“Another strong Smackdown on 11/7:

Mysterio & Edge beat Angle & Benoit to win the tag titles in a match that went nearly 25:00. Faces took fall one when Edge pinned Angle. Second fall saw Angle used the ankle lock on Edge. Third fall they did a tease where Mysterio pinned Angle, but Angle made the ropes before the three. They ended up re-starting the match, since theoretically fans would figure that since they already got the “fake” win, that the belts weren’t changing. But they did a Benoit & Angle screw up leading to the finish with the belts changing hands.”

The Smackdown six as they were called, Rey & Edge - Angle & Benoit - the Guerreros - man that was some damn good wrestling wasn’t it? Any frustration seeing these guys tear it up on Smackdown while you’re calling Hunter in a funeral parlor and Kane’s dead girlfriend?

“Some Ross Report notes for the week. He tabbed Raw as a work in progress trying to find the correct balance between steak and sizzle. It’s not the balance, it’s the entire direction and knowing the difference between good and bad television. It does appear that today’s audience wants more in-ring, but if there is enough great material outside the ring, most fans will be satisfied. But bad matches or bad skits is still bad, and the problem isn’t the percentage of time allotted to either.

He noted that Gerald Brisco is headed to the Kurt Angle Classic with Angle and Brock Lesnar this coming weekend and strongly hinted he was going there partially to scout prospective talent.

Noted Terry Taylor as an agent for Raw working before the shows with talent along with Arn Anderson. WWE has also hired Rip Rogers as a coach working out of OVW. Rogers has been around helping guys there for years in I guess what would be called an unofficial capacity.”

The hope is you’re building something with all this - but it’s gotta be hard to sell college wrestlers on this when you’re running that type of creative is it not?

How important was Terry & Arn back then to helping what was a young roster?

Did you have any say who were the coaches in OVW or was that just Cornette?

The go-home Smackdown featured this according to Meltzer:

“Much of the show was teasing the probable Heyman/Lesnar split. Heyman was mad because Lesnar showed up, since he told him to stay home from last week’s injuries. Heyman told Lesnar to leave, but Lesnar refused, promising a showdown later in the show. Angle and Benoit made up after the post- match and shook hands. Lesnar called out Show. After some brawling, Lesnar clocked Show with supposedly three of the hardest chair shots ever on this side of the Pacific Ocean. Show had a huge lump between his elbow and forearm from one of the chair shots.”

What did you think of the breakup of Heyman/Lesnar? Did you think he was going to suffer because of it?

“Saturn was officially released this week. It was no surprise and apparently the decision was made while he was injured that they weren’t going to bring him back. The nature of his contract, which expires in January, is that he’s getting paid in full through January but apparently paying a big lump sum for the release now, which maybe gets the contract off the books quicker.”

What missed about Perry Saturn? What was holding him back or hurting him and do you think he reached his full potential?

Having the show at MSG - does it mean anything to you at this point in time?

We’re at the show JR and it’s a critical success with the Observer readers. 76.2% thumbs up but it feels like a failure when you compare the previous years results.

Survivor Series of 01 - the final match between the Alliance of WCW & ECW taking on WWF for brand supremacy draws 450,000 buys while this show drew 340,000. Do you think the WWF turned off over 100,000 paying customers in a year? Or is this a reaction to the Katie Vick stuff?

“The WWE changed five championships, including the big two, and debuted the most expensive structure in wrestling history to headline the Survivor Series on 11/17 from New York’s Madison Square Garden.

On the positive side, it was a very entertaining stand alone show before a unique New York crowd that was very vociferous about what it liked. The biggest pops were for the reuniting of the Dudleys, the debut of Scott Steiner, and the Raw title win by Shawn Michaels. It also, with booing, let the promotion know it didn’t like Edge all that much (the pretty boy thing), loved to boo Kurt Angle so much they were real mad when he was eliminated from the tag title elimination match, and thought more of Rob Van Dam than the promotion seems to. The effort was there in every match and while there was some sloppiness, there was nothing you would call a bad match.”

This show seems like an attempt to reset some of the bad creative - is that a fair assessment?

“The show was a legitimate sellout (there were scattered empty seats live according to several reports) of 17,930 fans (about 15,500 paid). The show broke the all-time gate record for pro wrestling in the New York city market at $1,250,580. It was also the largest live gate for any pro wrestling show ever in the North America that wasn’t a Wrestlemania. The previous record for the New York market was $1,142,540 was set on January 23, 2000 for the Royal Rumble. The non-Wrestlemania record was $1,151,940 set at the 2000 SummerSlam in Raleigh, NC (Rock vs. Kurt Angle vs. HHH). MSG has never not sold out for a PPV, even during bad business periods, so the record is more indicative of higher ticket prices than for any of the previous sellouts. Based on a higher volume of response, it does appear the PPV, despite overall business declining on almost a weekly basis, may have beaten the abnormally low numbers of the past two PPV events, which is a good sign.”

What do you think of this as a business indicator?

“A. Lance Storm & William Regal beat Goldust & Hurricane in 3:01 in a match changed from the PPV to Heat at the last minute. Hurricane choke slammed Storm and Goldust was going for the curtain call, when Regal punched Goldust (it was never sold as if it was a Knux shot) and Storm pinned him with an inside cradle. Typical Heat match that was fine but had no time to mean anything. Tommy Dreamer ran in and cleaned house with cane shots to a big pop.”

Man something tells me this would’ve been great to have on the pay-per-view. Do talent give a shit that something like this happens?

Could Tommy Dreamer had been anything more?

“1. Jeff Hardy & Bubba Ray & Spike Dudley beat Rosey & Jamal & Rico in 14:22 of a tables elimination match. A lot of high risk spots and table breaking, with some sloppiness. Match was made by the finish, where D-Von returned to being a Dudley, complete with Dudley wear, and gave Rico a 3-D through a table for the final elimination. It had been a mistake to break the two up, because Bubba was doing okay but going nowhere with the second rate Wazzup, telling himself to get the table, and no 3-D. D-Von was dying as a single. Rosey went through a table first, but they invoked the “not from an offensive move” rule that they remember and forget depending on the week, so it didn’t count. There was a you f’d up chant at Rosey when he dropped Jeff coming off the ropes when he was supposed to catch him. Spike was about to do the Dudley dog on Rico through a table, but Rosey & Jamal caught him and gave him a wheelbarrow flapjack so Spike was out at 4:25. Rosey and Jeff brawled to the entrance way. It took forever to set up the spot where Jeff dove off the balcony above the famous spot that wrestlers come out in MSG with a swanton through a table on Rosey to eliminate him at 7:59. Crowd loved that. There was a funny spot next, where Rico was on the top ready to do a moonsault. Jeff was supposed to shake the ropes, but took forever getting there. Rico did an impromptu losing and regaining his balance on the top spot to stall. Finally, after it seemed time was standing still, he screamed loudly at Jeff to get there. Jeff did a whisper in the wind out of the ring. He ran across the barricade to do a spot, but slipped off the barricade and went through a table. I think he was supposed to go through the table, but not slip. Maybe not. Jamal put him on a table and did a plancha off the top rope to the floor to eliminate Jeff at 11:12. I think I’d have a heart attack laying on a table waiting for that 370 pound guy to fly off the top corner on me, even with the table to soften the impact. Jamal then looked like he was going to do a huracanrana off the top on Bubba, which I have no doubt he could do but sort of should be illegal for a guy of that size. Bubba blocked it and power bombed him through a table to eliminate him in 12:50. This left Bubba vs. Rico, but Rosey & Jamal came back and tripled on Bubba. D-Von made the save, leading to the big pop for the return of the 3-D on Rico. Rico ended up getting several cuts in his arm from his biceps to forearm from particles of the breaking table.  ***”

The Dudleys together made a lot more sense than not together…but does this make the brand extension look like a failure when you’re just putting people back together just like that?

How was Jeff to deal with around this time? You could start to see signs of things to come right?

“2. Billy Kidman won the cruiserweight title from Jamie Noble in 7:29. Good work marred by a dead crowd until the last 90 seconds. Noble did an early tope. Noble came off the top into a well-timed dropkick. Kidman set up a shooting star, but Nidia pulled Noble out of the ring. Kidman instead came off the top with a plancha to the floor. Lots of good near falls including a face first gourdbuster by Kidman off the ropes. Noble did this sick DDT off the ropes where Kidman went down almost vertical. This woke the crowd up and they were into the build for the finish. Kidman was on top again, and Nidia, who had taken a bump earlier, tried to pull him off. Kidman kicked Nidia off the apron, then hit the shooting star press for the pin. ***¼”

Yes SmackDown was the better wrestling show but man when some of their talents got into the ring crowd heat seemed to be an issue…why was that do you think?

“3. Victoria (beat Trish Stratus in a hardcore match to win the womens title in 7:01. Before the match, the “Single White Female” Victoria got upset when she looked into a talking mirror which told her Trish was prettier than she was. I was getting scared, because I was afraid she was going to see Ultimate Warrior in the reflection. Victoria invented a new MMA submission maneuver, the broomstick choke. Lots of hard garbage can lid shots. They tied garbage cans to all four posts allowing the two to get whipped into them. Stratus did some cane shots. Victoria got a bloody nose, apparently from being whipped into the steps. Lots of missed moves here including Stratus doing one of the most messed up bulldog headlocks in pro wrestling history. I think even Tex McKenzie was turning over in his grave at that one (for those who don’t know, and these jokes stink when you have to explain them, Tex was one of the clumsiest workers ever and used a bulldog as his finisher). Victoria pulled out a fire extinguisher and went to spray. The first time it didn’t work. Second time it did, and then Victoria got the pin after a vertical suplex. *¼ “

I thought this was better than Meltzer did and really proved these girls could work. What say you Jim?

“4. Big Show won the WWE title from Brock Lesnar in 4:19. They played up the rib injury with Lesnar all taped up. Show drove him into the ringpost early. Lesnar did a back suplex where Show barely got off the ground. Lesnar got him over for a german suplex, which didn’t look pretty, but the guy is 500 pounds. Ref bump two minutes in. Lesnar used a belly-to-belly overhead and the MSG crowd, which was behind him strong, popped big for that. Lesnar did a clean F-5. A second ref ran in but Heyman pulled him out of the ring and decked the ref. Show came from behind with a chair to the ribs and a chair to the back, followed by a choke slam on the chair for the pin. In the latest copy of the 1997 Survivor Series, Show and Heyman ran out of the building, into an awaiting getaway car (after Earl Hebner called for the bell in the 1997 match, he sprinted to the back and before anyone could react, had jumped into a car with his brother Dave and sped away from the building) **”

This…I don’t know. Brock’s first loss like this. Under 5 minutes. Big Show. Heyman turning on him. I feel like it did him no favors. Was it worth it in the long run?

“5. Los Guerreros won the Smackdown tag titles in a three- way over Kurt Angle & Chris Benoit and Rey Mysterio & Edge in 19:25. This match was actually a disappointment, although would have been considered really good if anyone else had the match. Mysterio missed the spot where he’s thrown in the air and lands on the top rope, and fell badly. Tons of great moves and near finishes back-and-forth until Edge speared and pinned Benoit in 13:09. Just before this, Chavo had hit Benoit with the title belt, right in front of the ref, which was kind of stupid. Chavo then threw the belt to Angle, who caught it. When Benoit turned around, he saw the belt in Angle’s hands and they argued, leading to the spear finish. Benoit and Angle argued to the back. The crowd reaction here was a surprise and really hurt the match. Crowd booed, seemingly a combination of guys not liking Edge and fans just mad that Benoit & Angle, particularly Angle, was out of the match. Work was generally good for the straight tag until Eddy and Edge seemed to lose their way and had a noticeable series of miscues. Mysterio nailed the 619 on Eddy for a big pop, but Chavo interfered and hit Mysterio with a belt shot. Eddy then put Mysterio in the lasso from El Paso for the clean submission. ***½”

In the long run - an Angle & Benoit wrestling each other angle meant a lot more than them being in a tag team…but my goodness Jim the reaction when they’re eliminated. It’s very visceral. Is that just MSG and New York?

“Christopher Nowinski came up and said people in New York were stupid. Matt Hardy then came out and teased defending New York, but said fans weren’t stupid, they were losers. This went on way too long with Hardy inventing the word lupid as a description for New Yorkers. Scott Steiner came out and cleaned house on both guys to an enormous pop. In fact, enormous probably doesn’t even do it justice. He pressed Matt overhead and nearly lost him, but managed to keep control and throw him over the top where he wiped out Nowinski. He then unleashed an “f bomb” because he didn’t have a mic when it was time to cut his promo.”

It feels like it was literally downhill from here JR but man the debut. What a reaction and pop. You had to feel like you really had something here right?

“6. Shawn Michaels won the Raw title in the Chamber over HHH, Rob Van Dam, Chris Jericho, Kane and Booker T in 39:20. This was a hell of a dangerous match. HHH vs. RVD was the beginning. HHH took a backdrop onto the steel apron. HHH juiced right away, and took a monkey flip on the ramp. Jericho came in at 5:00. RVD climbed up to the top of an eight-foot chamber, and came across with a frog splash on HHH, that hurt him. Van Dam sold the knee and Booker pinned him after a missile dropkick in 13:37. Kane came in and threw Jericho through the so called bullet- proof plexiglass (which broke far easier than the famous glass ceiling he’s been bumping into for years). Jericho bled. Kane choke slammed Booker, and Jericho pinned him after a lionsault in 17:43. Michaels came in. Kane choke slammed Michaels, HHH and Jericho and didn’t go for any pins. Sure sign he was next out. Michaels superkicked Kane, followed by an HHH pedigree and Jericho’s lionsault in 22:53. The match really wasn’t that great up to this point. Michaels juiced. Michaels took several bumps on his back on the steel, which, if his back surgeon in San Antonio was watching, was probably cursing him up and down by this point. There is no way he’s going to be feeling good in about a week. They both worked on Michaels until fans saw the Jericho vs. HHH brawl. Michaels kicked out of a lionsault, a clear message since Booker and Kane both were pinned by the move. Jericho countered a pedigree and had HHH in the walls. They did a great near rope break spot, and Jericho pulled him in the middle. Before God (Hunter) would submit, Michaels superkicked Jericho and pinned him in 30:43. Crowd finally figured out Michaels was winning at this point. HHH catapulted him through the plexiglass. They had a great slugfest. Michaels catapulted HHH into the chains and did an elbow drop off the top of one of the eight foot chambers. HHH hit a pedigree, but was too stunned to roll over for the pin. After a second pedigree attempt, Michaels blocked it and hit the superkick for the pin. They had set up the confetti about 20 minutes into the match and dropped it all over the place. Real strong visual to end the show. Michaels physically had lost some of his wrestling timing that was one of his strong suits, and looked small. His timing as far as when to do spots and how to do them for the most impact is still impeccable, and that’s what made the last part of the match so strong.  ****¼”

Jim what a hell of a debut for the Elimination Chamber but this is Shawn’s second match back in over 4 years for the WWE and here he is as champion…did you think it was the right move at the time?

From the Observer:

“The show ended with a confetti celebration for Michaels’ comeback, getting the title in his second WWE match back after more than four years on the sidelines in the debut of the brutal elimination chamber. Michaels, 37, just a few months shy of five years from when he was last a regular wrestler, pinned HHH after a superkick to win the title. It was a match that saw HHH wrestle nearly 40 minutes, the last 27 of which saw him with a throat injury serious enough that he was rushed after the match in an ambulance to the hospital and held overnight for observation and testing. They actually wanted to keep him a second night for observations, but he went to Raw, although never appeared on the show, and won’t be able to wrestle until the weekend before Thanksgiving at the earliest. He ended up diagnosed with a swollen neck, which made breathing and talking difficult by putting pressure on his esophagus and trachea. The television version of a crushed trachea was an embellishment of the real injury. The injury is believed to have occurred when Van Dam went for a frog splash off the top of an eight foot chamber, and with the top of the cage in the way of Van Dam standing up like he usually does on the move, he had to jump from an awkward position. Ironically, the spot was designed to work a fake knee injury which would be Van Dam’s reason for elimination. He landed wrong, with either his shinbone or knee coming across the throat of HHH and there was fear of a crushed larynx after the match. HHH also suffered some sort of an arm injury that he hadn’t checked out at press time. In a wwe.com interview, he thought it may be either a broken arm or wrist and had no idea at one point of the match it would have happened in.”

The injury is scary - that couldn’t have helped Rob Van Dam’s standing in the office could it? Hurting HHH?

“The chamber was a structure, 36-feet in diameter, surrounded by two miles of chains and legitimately cost $500,000 to build. Just to justify the cost, it will probably end up becoming an annual gimmick. The wrestlers were under pressure to get the gimmick over, and with a steel ramp similar to an entrance way ramp taking the place of a ring apron and a floor with mats, nearly everyone involved, including Michaels, took numerous hard back bumps on steel. Juice was heavy. Among the things noted were the cost of the structure, nearly as much as WWE spends on its entire developmental program for a year, at a time when the company is making so many cutbacks. Some viewed it as a WCW-like special effects boondoggle where money is poured down the drain building something that isn’t worth all that much because of the feeling fans want special effects rather than wrestling. There is always going to be internal debate regarding product mix and with McMahon himself residing on the toilet humor and freak show entertainment side instead of the divergent serious wrestling and realistic angles approach. With two divergent products on television from the same company at the same time for the first time ever, a somewhat fair comparison can be made. The huge and growing ratings disparity between the two versions, particularly when it was the Raw version that had a sizeable edge when the brand extension started, and that’s reversed, seems to be an obvious answer what the public wants today.”

Holy shit Jim - $500,000. When you hear that number and think about it - do you think the company made the right financial decision here?

Meltzer makes a hell of a comparison with all the title changes to something that should ring loudly for you:

“Usually, companies that have changed almost every title in one night, which is usually

due to a panic decision based on falling business, have only dug their problems deeper while at the same time been praised for action packed shows. The most famous example of that would have been in November of 1986 when Bill Watts produced what many considered at the time a landmark episode of Mid South Wrestling, changing every belt on the same television show, but business went down after that. Inherently, it makes several of the title changes mean nothing at a time when such things mean little to begin with.”

What can you tell us about that classic episode of Mid South and your reaction to it?

“Even internally people were saying, when the final decision was made to both give Michaels the title, and pull the trigger on the Lesnar-Heyman split and Lesnar title loss on the same night, that it was another HHH manipulation to make sure Lesnar’s big angle ended up secondary to his program and takes down Lesnar as competition for the big star slot. There was also the “What does this tell the boys” argument. Show, considered the laziest wrestler on the roster, got the title on one side. On the other side, which desperately needs to make a new top star, they put the title on someone who isn’t doing house shows and is just a short-term nostalgia fix who, from ratings and crowd reactions, whose latest return was a disappointment as far as connecting with anyone but the older fans.

Lesnar hadn’t done an official dramatic turn. McMahon felt he needed to be a face because fans had been cheering him. Without the strong turn angle, he wasn’t a strong face . No doubt that angle needed to be done, and it should have been on this show. When the argument came down to Big Show or Chris Benoit, and business was where it was, anyone who has followed McMahon history knew where the call was going. And since it’s a short-term plan anyway designed to build Lesnar, slaying a monster at this point is probably more effective than having a better wrestling match. Whether Show & Heyman as a combination for the long haul is more effective than Benoit & Heyman isn’t as clear.

Still, the theory behind it has some logic.”

Was it too much on one night creatively?

“The big thing that is privately being said by people who are closest to McMahon is that things have changed greatly, even of late. People who have been the most loyal to him and praised him for decades, have become more frustrated at the lack of long-term decision making. Whether McMahon has lost confidence in himself, the internal feeling is that McMahon makes all his decisions based on the last person who has his ear at the last moment pushing their beliefs, and in many cases, their personal agendas.”

JR - you were close to Vince all those years…what do you think of that classification from Meltzer? Spot on?

“With Michaels, things are less complicated. While many think HHH was behind the Lesnar loss, from the accounts we’ve heard, at least internally it appeared this was Vince’s baby (Terry Taylor was also a big proponent of this switch). The Michaels win was more a suggestion by HHH, which wasn’t viewed nearly as positively internally by many. The argument was it was a great climax to a comeback story and the pop at the end of the show would be enormous. No argument, and with the confetti celebration, some would see the finish of the show being more ingenious, in that it made the HHH title more important seeming on the show than the Lesnar title. It was a fun thing for a split second. But then reality hit. You had a guy who could only fit on one prime time show in the country these days–That 70s show, wearing an outfit that makes him look like an aging ballerina. Don’t they at least have stylists and wardrobe people working in this company that can save poor Shawn from being caught in a different century?”

OK that’s pretty funny and his outfit is forever known as his worse ever - but Vince and Terry Taylor pushing for this…does it just lead to people saying…well Hunter would only drop the title to his buddy Shawn conspiracy theory?

“What is scary is the weekly injury updates, with most of the top stars working hurt these days, and then watching spectacular shows with matches like the tables match, which was a fairly high risk match, and the Chamber match, which by the way it was worked, was an extremely high risk match. There is no doubt that since the Mick Foley cage bumps and ECW inspired stunts that crowds love human demolition derbies involving people they know. But when we have a situation where, in the pecking order, the top four guys (Lesnar, HHH, Angle and Undertaker) are all hurt at the same time with serious enough injuries that they shouldn’t be wrestling, it says the product balance is getting out of whack for the bodies. This isn’t a situation the company doesn’t fully address, as noted many times by the company pushing the wrestlers to do a more ground-based psychology oriented ring style. But in establishing a daredevil style so prominently, it sets up fan expectations in the direction opposite of what many feel they need to be educated toward. There’s no easy answer, as we all know the safer the ring style, you’ll both lower the injury rate and crowd appeal and there is no perfect balance.”

Was the Chamber too high risk and a learning lesson for the company?