STW - Royal Rumble 2005 [Show Notes] (Patreon)

The Rumble to end…well Vince’s quads.

First thing to bring up Bruce is the West Side Story commercial for the show.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1oljb

Who came up with this? Were you there for the filming? Was this the best commercial WWE has ever done for a show?

The most recent pay-per-view before this show is New Year’s Revolution which takes place in San Juan, Puerto Rico. At the time the vacant World Heavyweight Title is determined in an Elimination Chamber match between Triple H, Edge, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Batista and Randy Orton. You know when you look at that list of performers it’s hard to find 6 bigger names in the business over the last 20 years…then you add in that Shawn Michaels is the special guest referee.

That show is also well remembered for being the show where both Eugene and Lita tear their ACLs in matches against Christian & Tyson Tomko and Trish Stratus…Kane pins Gene Snitsky and it wasn’t his fault and Triple H wins the World Title.

The night after New Year’s Revolution on Raw … and mind you Batista is still a member of Evolution at this point … Batista and Orton face off in a #1 contenders match with Orton winning for the right to face Hunter at the Rumble. Coming out of the pay-per-view and the Raw do you know at this point it’s Hunter vs. Dave at Mania?

Are you at any of these shows? It’s reported in the Observer that you were missing time due to your father having a stroke.

It’s reported in the Observer that Kurt Angle, Shane McMahon, Trish Stratus, Stacy Keibler and Shawn Michaels all went to Japan to promote upcoming tapings there and Shane discusses that they’re interested in running the Tokyo Dome. Can you imagine the complete mind blowing experience that would’ve been for Dave Meltzer?

There’s a tease while there between Kurt Angle and Shawn Michaels with a standoff. From the Observer: “For Mania, at least as of this past week, Angle vs. Undertaker was still penciled in. They really don’t have to commit to anything until Rumble, at which point they should build the major angles. They could always do Michaels vs. Angle and Undertaker & Kane vs. Heidenreich & Snitsky.”

Was there already a working plan in place for Kurt vs. Taker or is that Meltzer just assuming that?

Who’s pushing for a Kurt and Shawn program?

Also from the Observer: “Hulk Hogan was backstage at the Smackdown tapings on 1/11. No word on what he was there for, and the show was in Tampa, but with Hogan, nothing is done without a reason. Pat Patterson was also backstage at the show.”

Is this the beginning of the Hulk Hogan to be inducted into the Hall of Fame talks? Was it important to induct Hulk because he was “Hollywood” Hulk for that Mania?

How was it to see Pat?

Over on Smackdown the show is built around a kidnapping angle with Joy Giovanni and Big Show, Kurt Angle and JBL’s cabinet. Bruce what in the hell was going on at this time with this?

Also on the show the Bashams win the Tag Titles from Mysterio & RVD, Booker & Eddie and Reigns & Jindrak. The Bashams…what didn’t work? Were they just not protected politically? Was it the Jim Cornette rub that hurt them? Or was it the ring work?

John Cena defended his US title over Kenzo Suzuki. At this point Cena is not the major star he is now obviously but was he ready at this point?

Daniel Puder is pulled from TV and it’s speculated in the Observer that with Paul Heyman taken off the writing team he was going to have a hard time breaking through. It’s said that Heyman’s original goal with the Gold Medal Challenge Kurt was doing every week with local indie guys was that Puder would be the payoff. Is that how you remember it and was Puder being depushed because of Paul?

The Miz and Daniel Rodimar both turn down developmental contracts coming off Tough Enough at this time. Was it money? It’s reported in the Observer that Rodimar joked with people that Johnny Ace got him drunk and then tried to get him to sign. Give me a Johnny Ace impression here Bruce!

The reports in the Observer of Taker and Heidenreich matches on house shows were that they were, “really bad.” Is Taker coming to you saying, this dude isn’t ready?

It’s reported in the Observer … “In a similar temporary end of a relationship that took place in April, World Wrestling Entertainment and one of its three biggest stars in modern history, Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson, have quietly ended their business relationship after eight years.

Johnson’s contract with WWE expired on 12/31, quietly. “The company and I are at an odd crossroad,” said Johnson. “It was an oddly quiet ending, without any interaction or communication from the front office or the old man (Vince). Surprising to say the least, especially after eight years.”

Johnson turned down participating in WrestleMania this year in Los Angeles on 4/3. It is not clear whether the company came to him with the planned idea for a match with JBL for the title or not.”

Bruce…HOW THE FUCK DOES THIS HAPPEN?

Were there really plans for JBL vs. Rock?

La Resistance go over William Regal & Jonathan coachman at a house show in Winnipeg because of Eugene tearing his ACL. Why La Resistance here as they were literally doing nothing of note? Why not someone like Christian & Tomko or debuting MNM with a big push in this scenario?

Now one of the bigger moments in WWE history…from the Observer: “Raw on 1/17 in Toronto was a unique show, because it was clearly not a battle to advance storylines or do a good show, but a battle between the writers and wrestlers against the fans over who was in control of the show. Boy, was it weird. As a whole, the company came off really petty in this regard. Toronto drew nearly 10,000 paid, which is one of the biggest WWE crowds of the past year. And like at SummerSlam, where they sold the building out, it was like the promotion resented its fan base. Toronto fans do have a mind of their own, but are fairly easy to predict. Lawler spent the whole show insulting the fans, calling it bizarro-world and again complaining that after eight years, they haven’t gotten over the Bret Hart-Shawn Michaels match.”

Where does the Bizzaro World comments come from? Vince? Do you think the nature of the company at that time lends itself to writing against the fans?

Shawn Michaels defeats Christian and it’s announced that Edge and Michaels will face off at the Royal Rumble. This isn’t Rated R Superstar Edge but this is a pretty big deal for Edge at this point in his career is it not?

Batista defeats Viscera and it’s a hell of a visual to see Batista hitting the spinebuster on him and he’s super over. The story is that Flair is loving watching Batista improve while HHH is scared of it. This is a super story and is it safe to say Hunter & Ric were involved creatively for it?

This recap from the Observer is just… yeah. “Stratus came out and played total Bret Hart Canadian babyface, saying she hates being in the United States of America. She made fun of Lita losing her title and hurting her knee, but said there is a whole locker room full of wrestlers who would gladly impregnate her to replace her lost baby. She said just because her knee isn’t working doesn’t mean she can’t lie on her back and that her uterus is still open for business. Kane came out. They’re still married, I guess. Crowd booed Kane because Stratus was the face. Kane teased he wasn’t going to choke slam her and was going to do the right thing, but eventually did. This will be edited out of the show in every country that has violence against women statues. This made Kane the heel for his main event with Snitsky. It was terrible. The crowd crapped on it too. Fans did the wave and chanted “Go Leafs Go” and rejected it until the final spot. They were fighting on the entrance ramp when Kane choke slammed Snitsky off the ramp, and went along for the ride, through a few tables. The show went off the air with both dead. Well, except Snitsky audibly talking with Kane and asking if the spot came off okay.”

Bruce…just…wow.

The Ultimate Fighter launches on Spike with Raw as the lead in. Was anybody worried about this?

Smackdown is based around Kurt Angle having to apologize for kidnapping or else he wouldn’t be allowed in the title match at the Rumble. JBL and Show came together because of what Angle did was so wrong but of course at the end of the show JBL turned on Show and it was a massive heel beat down leaving Show bloody. There’s not a lot of heat here for this which for such a heavy angle seems odd. What was it about this story that wasn’t connecting?

It’s reported in the Observer that the Shane Twins were signed and to be placed on TV immediately on the Smackdown side. These are two big dudes who are twins so they do the switching in and out gimmick. What did you think of them and were they TV ready?

There’s a press conference between Steve Austin & Vince McMahon regarding a movie deal. Is the timing of this a coincidence with everything going on with the Rock at the time?

From the January 24th episode of Raw the beginning of the recap from Meltzer says, “No matter who you are or how legendary you are, when you come on Raw, you can only be humiliated.”

Now it should be pointed out that this show was in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma…

“It was Jim Ross Day and they showed him being honored and he talked about how much he loved Oklahoma and the Oklahoam Sooners. Stacy Keibler came out and talked about how it was Jim Ross Day in Oklahoma. First, she brought to the ring Danny Hodge, who, as a shoot, was Ross’ favorite wrestler growing up. Hodge, who is 72, leaped over the top rope into the ring and got a nice reaction. Ross gave the perfect thank you speech to the point I really wished they wouldn’t have messed it up by doing an angle, but I knew better. I wonder what other form of entertainment feels the need to always humiliate people who are former legends? HHH and Flair came out. HHH did a great job here of being the ultimate prick. He told Ross and “father time” to run along because he wanted to talk to Kiebler. They left and he grabbed Keibler by the wrist and started threatening to abuse her. Ross jumped in to make a save, while he got insulted some more by HHH. Flair gave Ross a blow blow. Hodge ran in for the save and decked HHH, which got a big pop, but then Flair blind sided him and they stomped the hell out of Hodge.”

Bruce - this leads to a Randy Orton save but my goodness. How much did Hunter and Flair enjoy working with Hodge and Hodge enjoy doing this?

Orton beats Flair in the main event but the continuing story all night is the differences between Batista and Hunter. Was there any heat from Orton regarding this? I mean he goes over at SummerSlam 04 and it should’ve been his crowning moment but it wasn’t and now he’s literally going to be putting Hunter over for Dave’s big win at Mania.

Smackdown go home show had Heidenriech reading a poem and then Taker’s music hits and a casket gets wheeled out and Heidenreich powders out. Yup.

Angle vs. JBL was the main and it ended with both men knocked out to build to the 3-way at Rumble.

In the Observer it’s said there were talks of bringing back Mean Gene and Bobby Heenan to host the Hall of Fame. Was that something that was talked about internally or was it because Hogan was going to be the focus of the ceremony and they were associated with him for so long?

Batista says this in a media interview before the Rumble, “I don’t consider it a rivalry (between Raw and Smackdown) at all. We’re a better show, period. There’s no comparison. I feel sorry for Smackdown, I just don’t know what’s going on over there. I try to watch the shows, but for me, they’re hard to sit through. And that really makes me sick as it should

be a top show. I've watched their tapings live and it seems like a lot of the guys couldn't care less. There's a lack of passion and pride. They need the stress of a live show on them, like we have. A lot of them think: 'Oh, it's taped. JfI mess up, we'll just redo it.' They're more worried about where they're going after the show, which also makes me sick, because it means they're not there to work”.• From the Observer: You know this isn't being said without HHH's approval and it actually speaks volumes about many

things. He's not wrong either, as there is a difference.

First off Bruce Batista has never cared about what people think or bites his tongue but this is really biting is it not?

Second off Dave’s commentary here - do you think he’s accurate that he isn’t going to be passing this through without Hunter’s sign off?

Well Bruce were here now. The 2005 Royal Rumble took place on January 30th from the Save Mart Center at Fresno State in front of 12,000 people. The show gets 575,000 buys. Now compared to the 2004 Rumble which had HHH vs. Shawn in a Last Man standing Match and Chris Benoit winning the Rumble in Philadelphia gets 582,000 buys so not that much of a drop off.

My question Bruce is - this is a small arena than we’re used to for the Rumble. Do you know why that was?

The show is received well by the Observer readers with 79.3% thumbs up.

The show opened with Edge and Shawn Michaels. From the Observer: “I. Edge pinned Shawn Michaels in 18:32. This match was good, but Edge has had so many better matches over the past year that it was a disappointment. Michaels' body language, superstar aura and facials are what is carrying him more than the athletic ability that made him what he is. There were some timing issues here that you wouldn't expect. Edge got the advantage doing the edgeacution on the noor. Edge was bleeding after slicing his forearm. There were a series of near falls. Edge delivered a spear on the floor, then threw Michaels in, and nailed him perfect with a spear in the middle, but Michaels kicked out. Edge acted like he was going

nuts, actually pulling his hair out of his head like he had mentally lost it. Edge later used his as yet unnamed Lasso from Toronto submission, but Michaels made the ropes, By this point Edge was bleeding from the mouth as well. Finish saw Michaels do a Japanese rolling crotch hold, but Edge rolled with it, held both the ropes and the tights and got the pin. ***1/4”

This is a real big win for Edge not just as a character but in his career to beat Shawn. Did you think it was a disappointment?

Next up is … well …

“2. Undertaker beat John Heidenreich in a casket match in 13:20. This match was preceded by a Heidenreich and Gene Snitsky love-in. These two horrible giants were snarling and telling each other how much they liked each other. Heidenreich said he liked Snitsky, but hated caskets; and Snitsky said he had a plan. If the plan was to cancel this match, it would have been a hell of an idea. Snitsky ran in early and they did a double-team, using a mistimed double suplex on Undertaker, so he landed badly(you really have to feel sorry for him trying to make lemonade unsuccessfully out of these matches). They went to roll him in the casket, but they opened the lid, a bandaged up Kane was there. Kane cleaned house for a while until he paired up with Snitsky. Kane and Snitsky brawled, and the scary part was, this was the hottest part of the match.

They ended up-brawling out of the ring. It was your typical casket match, except worse, from here. Heidenreich got Undertaker in, but he blocked slamming the door on two occasions. The finish was really bad. First came a botched DDT spot, then Undertaker lost Heidenreich on the choke slam (both times Heidenreich's doing). Finally Undertaker used the tombstone and rolled him in the casket. ¾*”

When Taker walks through the curtain - what does he say to you?

Was the plan Taker & Kane vs. Snitsky & Heidenreich at Mania and this ended that?

“3. JBL retained the WWE title in a three way over Kurt Angle and Big Show in 12:04. Angle hit Show with a TV monitor while he was standing on the ring steps, and Show fell backwards with a Nestea plunge bump through the Smackdown announcers table. Show only sold being out for two minutes before he made the comeback. Angle isn't able to carry a match with guys like this all by himself anymore. Show did a running tackle sending JBL through the barricades. They brought out a stretcher for him. The Bashams came out. Angle tried to bring in a chair, but Show flapjacked Angle on the chair and had him beat. Mark Jindrak pulled the ref out of the ring and then Luther Reigns attacked Show. As Reigns & Jindrak beat up Show, JBL staggered into the ring and did a clothesline to Angle and pinned him. It was almost a babyface turn tease because Cole was putting JBL over as a survivor. *¾”

These 3 - just didn’t click did it? Is it too much in one match and like Meltzer said - was Angle up for or able to carry these two like this?

“4. HHH pinned Randy Orton in 21 :28 to keep the World title. It was clear they were limiting the interference to the two matches they felt needed it more. I thought the only ending here was Batista beating Orton and saving the title for HHH, but instead they went with HHH over strong. They might as well, since HHH has been booked as the face who overcomes the odds

most weeks anyway, and the crowd chanted things like "Randy sux" and "Orton's a pussy." HHH constantly outfoxed Orton when he'd go for the RKO. Most of the match was HHH working on Orton's legs, and they tried to push the idea that Orton had knee damage from a recent match. Orton got a bloody mouth. After the requisite Earl Hebner ref bump, HHH grabbed the sledge hammer. Orton stopped him for using it and posted HHH, who juiced. Orton went for a DDT,.but HHH held on the ropes and Orton hit his head on the mat Orton did a great job selling lhe idea he had a concussion as his eyes were glazed over. That was kind of his out, that he was, even while out on his feet, continuing to fight. HHH then pinned

him after a pedigree. *** ¼”

Why was it so important here to have Hunter over clean and do you think the crowd turning on Randy was because of the booking?

Before the Rumble happens Ric Flair and Eddie Guerrero have a backstage segment where Flair draws obviously a good number and Eddie gives him a handshake and steals it. Classic Eddie & Ric. Who came up with that Bruce?

“5. Batista won the Royal Rumble in 51:27. This was probably the first Royal Rumble that Pat Patterson, who created the event, wasn't heavily involved in putting together. For the record, Patterson was not at the show as he was in Tampa at the Wrestle Reunion.”

Is this the first Rumble you can remember that Pat isn’t a part of it?

“They opened with Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit, so we had two minutes of good hard wrestling. Daniel Puder was in next, and got the initiation treatment. They both forgot about each other and took turns throwing the hard chops. Bob Holly was in next with a big smile. He gave more hard chops, and then Puder took a back suplex from Benoit, and triple vertical from Guerrero and the Alabama slam from Holly before being the first one out at 6:02. Puder was knocked silly because he was laying on the ground for several minutes and barely moving. Some of it must have been selling because nobody attended to him, but he was laying out there a long time, and it was never shown on camera. Holly's usefulness was over at that point, so rather than risk him hurting somebody important, Benoit and Guerrero immediately dumped him at 6: 11, just as Hurricane came in.”

OK Bruce let’s stop right there. Daniel Puder - who isn’t ready for TV - is put in a big spot on the Rumble against Eddie and Benoit who chop the shit out of him. Then Bob Holly comes out to deliver more punishment and then once Puder gets the shit beat out of him and his bell rung he’s dumped…and as Meltzer really points out Holly is done right afterwards. This…just looks bad doesn’t it? Is this just petty locker room shit spilling out in front of the camera on one of the 4 biggest shows of the year to build to your gigantic money pay-per-view?

There’s a brawl between Raw and Smackdown guys - 4 vs 4 - which ends when Muhammad Hassan comes out and everyone stops brawling and everyone dumps him which really puts him over as a super heel does it not?

Eddie Guerrero gets thrown out after 28:16 in there by Edge which gets a huge amount of heat and right in after that is Shawn Michaels to help get the match back focused. It’s genius booking. That was Vince right?

Right after Kurt Angle comes in for 47 seconds … enough to almost suplex everybody … before Michaels super kicks him out which really is the best way to book someone to be in there for 47 seconds. Angle attacks Michaels … eliminates him illegally and busts him open to get their WrestleMania program started.

John Cena throws out Viscera later which is really a push because Viscera has always been built in every Rumble as a guy who can’t be thrown out by one guy and there’s Cena who does it. What a rub.

Gene Snitsky makes his way out and then comes the classic elimination of Paul London where he gets clotheslined off the apron and does a shooting star flip to the floor. When something like that happens in gorilla what’s the reaction?

From Meltzer: “What was bad about this is when they had the camera shot on London being put on the stretcher, the EMT's took no care of him and literally threw him on with no immobilization, so it was almost a comedy movie spot. It would have taken very little quality control to have made that one believable looking.”

Go ahead Bruce.

Batista comes out and starts dumping everyone in the Diesel spot. Somehow Jonathan Coachman lasted 12 minutes in the Rumble. How the hell does that happen?

Flair is #30 and there’s a spot where he tries to take advantage of Batista to throw him out but Batista doesn’t go out and Edge dumps Flair before Batista can do anything.

Final 4 were Batista, Edge, Mysterio & Cena. Edge eliminated Mysterio and then Batista & Cena eliminated Edge. So we’re down to 2. Meltzer would say: “While the crowd was more for Batista, they didn’t boo Cena. That wasn’t a risk worth taking.”

Do you think it was?

Now why we’re all here…

“In actuality, the Royal Rumble finish was botched. John Cena was

simply supposed to escape from the power pomb the first time, but later get power bombed and thrown over the top clean. Instead, they both lost balance and tumbled over the top rope. The referees had no idea what to do, and Vince McMahon was in the back on the headsets basically directing everything that happened. At first, the referees raised Batista's hand as the winner, as was planned. When it became clear that Batista hit the ground first, Vince ordered the referees to do the tie finish, with the Smackdown referees calling it for Cena and Raw referees for Batista. He

then said he was coming out. That would explain why no music was cued up for Vince.”

OK so let’s walk through this part first. Is Meltzer accurate with the finish?

What goes on at gorilla when they tumble over?

How insane does Vince go?

Is everyone just standing looking at Vince like…so what do we do?

When did you know Vince was going out there?

“Instead, after a far too Long period of indecisiveness, Vince McMahon came to the ring doing the Vince walk. As Vince tried to slide into the ring like a wrestler, he didn't get high enough, and smashed his right knee on the apron. As he tried to recover, he climbed through the ropes, took a step on right leg, and collapsed. While sitting down, unable to get up. he started pantomiming about what to do. The show was way over time by this point, as they had been shaving time throughout the Rumble because the undercard had already went long. While trying to explain and unable to stand, Cena and Batista each threw each other once over the top. By the time it was restarted, the show had run way long and the two had to simply have Batista power bomb Cena and throw him out in 16 seconds, making for a weak ending, particularly as it regarded Cena, who is scheduled to face JBL for the Smackdown title, and this clearly made him a secondary challenger and that a secondary match.”

OK so what goes on as everyone sees Vince sitting in the ring? The panic that must be happening. Walk me through it all Bruce.

Look everything that’s happening and everything that did happen obviously dictates the finish and it’s important to note that yeah it may have made Cena look weak but you guys had to get done and get the hell out of there. It’s all last second decisions literally happening but the original finish at this point isn’t possible. Who’s idea is it to have each other throw each other out?

What the hell happens when Vince walks through the curtain? The story I’ve always heard is he was attempting to no sell it and ended up putting more pressure on his other leg and fucked that leg up worse is that correct?

What did Johnny Ace tell Vince when he walked through the curtain?

From Meltzer: “In what may.be the most important story, McMahon's noticeable aging has become concerning. It was never something talked about, and now barely a day goes by when someone doesn't bring it up. McMahon turns 60 in August, but the past few months were the first time where you really ever heard people talk about what happens to the business after Vince. It's a scary proposition, because for all of the positives and the negatives that can be said about the person who is ultimately the greatest promoter in the history of this industry and at many times a creative genius, you will find almost nobody who understands wrestling who isn't very concerned about pro wrestling in the U.S. when he's no longer in control.”

We are 17 years later and here we are. Was this though a sign of reality of Vince not being the bionic human he still is?

It’s reported in the Observer that the promoters in Japan who were promised Vince for TV tapings because it had always been Shane & Stephanie going to these things made many in the company uneasy because they didn’t know if Vince was going to be able to travel. How real is that issue?

So what do you say about the show Bruce?

Now an all new feature at AdFreeShows.com Bruce: Call-in questions! Sign up at AdFreeShows.com and you too can get your voice and question on Something to Wrestle With!

Did Daniel Puder know he was being hazed?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YnBD9qebHOz6RhgM1JUL8dtHISX7iRHv/view?usp=sharing

If this is not the greatest example of Vince not selling shit - what is?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zkWXgpw8jmrir1taYbZnB_OR5AB8U4vN/view?usp=sharing

Cena & Batista reaction to Vince backstage?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1O9HNPReyGPBag8YmwpGLp2W-3IyiIuO_/view?usp=sharing

HHH as a heel during this time

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1C_h2YBFg63n4Ap5NleblQfjzqKp6JmFQ/view?usp=sharing

What if John Cena won?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1A9KqW6C2EBjlUGB_f2iCg5k-p0OZoZd3/view?usp=sharing

Next month we close out the Royal Rumble where we look back 15 years ago and discuss the 20th Rumble from 2007! It’s from the AT&T Center in San Antonio, Texas where we have 3 championship matches scheduled and the first Rumble to include ECW. Bobby Lashley defends the ECW Title against Test, Batista defends the World Title against Mr. Kennedy, John Cena against Umaga in a Last Standing Match for the WWE Title, and the beginning of the Undertaker - Shawn Michaels WrestleMania build…what else do you think we’ll be talking about?