83 Weeks - Konnan [Show Notes] (Patreon)

Today is the 200th episode of 83 Weeks! What a journey it's been!

Today we’re going to be discussing K-Dog, Konnan also known as Charles or Carlos Ashenoff. Konnan celebrated his 58th birthday on January 6th and we’re going to dive right in.

Konnan’s legacy really begins in Mexico as a bodybuilder when he’s brought to a wrestling show. From the Observer: “Carlos traveled to Tijuana on Wednesday, January 6, 1988, (his 24th birthday), where he was led to the dressing area and introduced to Manuel de los Santos, the promoter of the show, and who also wrestled in the main event as “Kiss”. De los Santos took one look at the 215-pound bodybuilder and did the classic double-take –– what the hell is this guy doing here, and, how quickly can I get this guy in the ring. Konnan introduced himself and explained how he was brought here by his manager/agent, John Roberts. Roberts had already bragged to de los Santos that Carlos had been a wrestler in Florida. Suddenly, a big roar (laughter) went up from another wrestler, Miguel Lopez, who wrestled as Rey Mysterio. Lopez/Mysterio explained to Carlos that Roberts was just a nutty fan, always in the front row, but that he did nothing involved with managing or agent-ing or anything else in the business. Still, the wrestlers asked Carlos, want to give it a try?”

This is kind of like the story of many bodybuilders turned wrestlers in the 80s but you don’t hear much about it in Mexico where it’s more of a family tradition. What was it about bodybuilders that turned into wrestlers in the 1980s?

Konnan begins in the UWA as “The Centurion” that very night and gets over to the crowd. Is that a surprise to you considering his dynamic nature and natural charisma?

He eventually gets actually trained and trains with the likes of Rey Mysterio Jr and Psicosis. They really started the eventual revolution of Mexican wrestlers entering WCW. What was it about those 3 talents that came up together and then helping change the business that made them stand out?

Towards the end of the 1980s Konnan becomes Conan the Barbarian and really becomes a high level guy. His mask was one of the top sellers in Mexico and…you’ll love this Eric…when WCW is putting together the Pat O’Connor Memorial International Cup for Starrcade 1990 they contact Dave Meltzer & Steve Beverly for recommendations. Meltzer recommends Konnan and Ole Anderson books him & Rey Mysterio Sr. Konnan & Rey get the win over Norman Smiley & Chris Adams before losing to the Steiners in the second round. Eric - were you at this show and is this the first time you met him?

Was there a stigma at the time for Mexican wrestlers in the United States in your mind?

The expectation was that Konnan would be brought back more but Ole Anderson leaves and Dusty Rhodes took over and that was that.

From there Konnan goes back to Mexico and joins with EMLL and they get on TV and they really begin to catch fire behind Konnan, Octagon & Vampiro. Are you keeping tracks on Mexico around this time?

Konnan loses his mask to Perro Aguayo in one of the most epic matches in Lucha Libre history and the post match scene is hard to describe without seeing it. Go out of your way to find it but as has happened before - Konnan losing his mask makes him a bigger star. Was this part of your motivation to unmask Rey Mysterio years later?

Antonio Pena ends up having one of the major coups in wrestling history and scoops up a bunch of talent from EMLL - Konnan included - to start AAA. Have you ever talked to Pena or Konnan regarding this?

Konnan ends up signing with the WWF in 1992 to play the character Max Moon he had come up with. It doesn’t work out well with the costume and then Konnan quits over frustration with booking, the costume, etc. Did you ever see any of the Max Moon work?

Konnan’s biggest match of all-time … and the match many would say would contribute to Konnan being called the “Hulk Hogan of Mexican wrestling,” was the first TripleMania in Mexico City which drew somewhere between 48,000 and 50,000 fans. His match is a Loser Must Retire main event against Cien Caras which ends when Jake Roberts interferes and causes Konnan to be counted out and retire. 50,000 fans Eric - did you ever see this?

The match between Konnan, Casas and Jake Roberts is unable to be held in Mexico due to the regulation actually giving a shit about stipulations at the time so it’s held at the LA Sports Arena draws 17,500 fans paying $243,000. It was a gate record at that point for the state of California which is amazing when you take a look at it considering there’s been two WrestleManias there before that. When you’re in position in WCW in 1993 when this show takes place - this has to land on your radar does it not?

When World’s Collide is held in conjunction between AAA & WCW and you can check out the show in our archives where we talked about it - but Konnan - now a heel - main events against Perro Aguayo in a cage match where he loses. But Konnan main eventing an American pay-per-view with very little American TV coverage has to be a big feather in his cap does it not?

Konnan debuts in ECW in 1995 but how much are you keeping track of this guy who has main evented a pay-per-view and drawn big crowds before?

It’s been said that Nancy Sullivan - Kevin’s wife who was working in ECW at the time - recommended Konnan to contact Kevin about coming in. Is this how you remember it going down?

At the end of 1995 it’s been said that you not only hire Konnan but also task him to find a crew to work in the United States. Mexico’s economy is in the shitter and so the guaranteed American contracts were a big carrot to dangle in front of anyone let alone those working in Mexico. Why was Konnan the guy to bring in the talent?

Did you ever have any disagreements on who he brought in?

Was Konnan paid a finders fee for the Rey Mysterio & Psicosis?

It’s announced that Konnan - the Mexican Heavyweight Champion (when in reality he was the AAA Heavyweight Champion) will defend his title at Clash of the Champions against Psychosis. Was him coming in with the AAA Title a big deal considering the name of the promotion is never really referenced?

Konnan shows his face on camera for the first time on Nitro on January 22nd from Caesars Palace promoting the match against Psychosis the next night at the Clash. What did you think was the limit for Konnan in the company? Did you think he could be a top guy?

From the Observer: “On January 27, 1996, in a grand experiment that never went anywhere, WCW let Carlos promote a show with basically all luchadores on it, to the tune of almost $400,000. It was in the college town of Waco, TX, and was called the WCW Festival de Lucha, with the idea of creating a Spanish language workrate oriented new television product. Konnan had really hoped to use this as a springboard to promoting occasional all-lucha shows under the WCW brand in the states of the US with the highest percentage of Hispanic residents, but the first show was considered a disaster and the idea was quickly dropped. WCW was already taping three nights a week, and neither the production people, nor the writers, nor the office, wanted to do a fourth night. On the other hand, Carlos did not want to have the lucha show taped as the first half of a extra-long TV taping either, nor did he think it would be a success to have half- Mexican wrestling and half American wrestling on a show.”

We’ve touched on this before but Eric you’re like a month in to having Konnan here and you spend $400,000 on this taping and it goes nowhere. How does this happen, was it a disaster to begin with, should it had even been greenlit?

Konnan gets a big win in the form of the United States title at the end of January. From the Observer: “Konnan defeated The One Man Gang to win the U.S. championship. It was considered more a political move than business, as Sullivan felt by giving Konnan, the top star in Mexico, the U.S. title, it would show the Mexican wrestlers that they would be used well if they came to the U.S., although that really didn’t end up being the case. “

Was that the thought process behind it?

Konnan doesn’t exactly do a lot in the next couple of months as champion. The main feud is with Eddy Guerrero and they have a great match at Uncensored 1996 where Konnan retains. Meltzer would write, “The match went nearly 20 minutes and the match and the feud was credited with really opening the eyes of the promotion as to what both men could do on the microphone and in the ring (where, to be sure, Guerrero was the better worker, but Carlos kept up admirably).”

Do you remember this match being an eye-opener regarding both men’s talents?

Did Konnan have an issue connecting with the audience because other than being the guy from Mexico his character isn’t really well defined is it?

Konnan dropped the US Title at Bash at the Beach in 1996 to Ric Flair. Was him as a champion just not working?

Konnan was bringing in a lot of Cruiserweights at the time that would lose to him but he wasn’t exactly the Cruiserweight type. Taller and bigger than them but not as tall as some on the upper card roster…did that hurt him?

The decision is made to put Konnan into the Dungeon of Doom a couple months after this as he was just floating around the midcard. Who had this idea and what was Konnan thoughts on it?

Is this just miscasting?

Kevin Sullivan said this once regarding, “Konnan "didn’t fit in The Dungeon of Doom. He was forced into it." Sullivan also praised Konnan highly: [He's] a fabulous performer and has a great mind for the wrestling business. He should have been on his own. Putting him with us, he just lost all the steam he had. He brought the luchadores into WCW, so he had a real effect on professional wrestling."”

Did everyone know right away it was a bad idea? I mean here’s the Dungeon of Doom members: The Faces of Fear, Kevin Sullivan, and Hugh Morrus. Where does Konnan fit there?

At the time Konnan was also helping the WWF indirectly. The WWF tasked Victor Quinones with finding mexican wrestlers to combat WCW and Victor reached out to Konnan regarding some talent recommendations. Did you know this was going on and would you have been in favor of this?

At Slamboree 1997 Konnan finally breaks away from the Dungeon of Doom when he turns on Hugh Morrus after a loss to the Steiner Brothers. Is there any thought of making Konnan a babyface at this point or was the decision to move him away from the Dungeon of Doom necessary for his continued career?

One of the biggest moments for Konnan at the time happens in Las Vegas at Monday Nitro on June 30th. Jeff Jarrett with help from Ric Flair defeats Konnan but then Flair lets Jarrett know again he’s not a Horseman. It seems like Konnan is going to make a babyface save later on when Kevin Nash is powerbombing Rey Misterio but instead attacks Misterio and destroys his knee. Did you see something in a program with Konnan & Rey?

Konnan officially joins the nWo on July 14th, 1997 as he’s rebranded K-Dawg. Who was for the move of Konnan into the nWo and was anyone against it?

The nWo is known as obviously as being cliquey - who did Konnan mesh with?

Konnan and Rey move right into a feud with each other and at Road Wild - in front of one of the toughest crowds in Sturgis - Konnan and Rey have a hell of a match in a Mexican Death Match which leads to a Konnan victory. Mike Tenay does commentary on this match - how much of an influence was Mike in getting over the Mexican talent?

Konnan again floats along in the mid card but is part of the 4 nWo members in the War Games cage match at Fall Brawl against the Horsemen which leads to Curt Hennig turning and joining the nWo. Was it a big deal to have Konnan alongside the likes of Kevin Nash, Buff Bagwell & Syxx?

Konnan is really part of the B squad of the nWo as he barely wrestles and is really just part of the interference brigade. What was Konnan’s attitude at the end of 1997?

May 4th, 1998 the nWo does the split that had been teasing for a long time between nWo Hollywood and nWo Wolfpac. When the Wolfpac is formed it’s really just Kevin Nash, Randy Savage & Konnan. That’s a big role for a guy who’s really been a background player for most of the year up until that point. Does Kevin pick him for the spot? Is it your idea?

The Wolfpac explodes in popularity. What was it about the Wolfpac that the crowd just took to?

Konnan is one of the biggest wins for Goldberg in his career. At Great American Bash 1998 Goldberg defends his US Title and gets his 100th win over Konnan. Is that trusting Konnan to make Bill look good in that big a spot?

At Fall Brawl 98 Konnan defeats Scott Hall in one of the more infamous moments in Scott’s career as Scott wrestles Konnan “drunk.” Did Konnan object to this or being a part of this?

Konnan wins the TV title over Chris Jericho on November 30th. Konnan is real over as a babyface at this point with his promos and entrance. Was there ever any consideration of moving Konnan up the card?

He holds the title for a month before dropping it to Scott Steiner the Nitro after Starrcade and we all know what is about to happen next. The Finger Poke of Doom and the nWo comes back together as one. But it seems like Konnan is the odd man out of the equation. From the Observer regarding Nitro on January 18th, “when Konnan’s name was raised, he was ejected from the entire nWo in a very dismissive manner, leading to an instantaneous face turn.”

He’s gotten over as a babyface so it doesn’t really make sense to put him with the nWo but there’s really no follow-up to it. No big feud with a nWo member as him against Lex Luger and him against Disco Inferno doesn’t really get going. What was the issue with Konnan do you think? Could he had a long term program with someone like Lex?

It’s always been said how outspoken Konnan was. Do you remember any instances regarding that around this time?

Konnan’s speaking out is about to increase heavily when it comes to his friend Rey Mysterio and him losing his mask to Kevin Nash at Superbrawl. The story has always been and is referenced to in the Observer about how Konnan was part of the people that convinced you not to have it happen at Halloween Havoc 1997 when Rey and Eddie tore the house down. Walk me through Konnan playing a part in that back in 1997.

Now here we are at SuperBrawl 1999. From the Observer: “While Misterio Jr. was not happy about this decision, Carlos was furious. Carlos, very outspoken and not diplomatic, repeatedly hammered the WCW bookers about the history of the mask in lucha libre, why losing the mask was a rare match and always carefully promoted, and about how much the mask meant to a luchador’s overall character. He also particularly criticized this particular match, with its ridiculous visual mismatch on its surface.”

Do you remember talking to Konnan regarding this?

Konnan in an interview with Bill Apter in 2001 had this to say, ““[The Mexican wrestlers brought to WCW] really grabbed the attention of the audience for about three years, and it was going great until WCW pulled the sacred, traditional masks off the performers in early 1999. They were so well known for the masks. It was like taking the mask off the Lone Ranger. All the mystique died. They shouldn’t have done it. They didn’t respect the tradition or they didn’t understand some of it. It was just ignorance, and some of it was just bullying, saying this is the way it has to be. Yeah, people wanted to see their faces, and WCW gave in. Juventud is a good-looking guy and so is Rey, but so what? The masks were part of their personas. That’s what makes Batman, Batman, when he puts on his cape. Oh, they hated it, especially the way it went down, because they saw, as usual, Federation officials weren’t respecting Mexican culture. They tried to kind of get down on Juvi and Rey, but they understood that they were under contract and they had to do what they had to do. It’s very hard to explain. It’s almost like going to Japan and telling the Japanese they have to eat with a fork instead of chopsticks. The masks are just our culture.”

Was this what Konnan was conveying to you? Do you think these are accurate statements with the benefit of hindsight?

Do you regret not listening to Konnan? Do you think this hurt your relationship with him?

Supposedly when all this happens it’s decided that now it’ll be Konnan teaming with Rey against the Outsiders. Was Konnan put in this match to rub salt in the wound?

Nash pins Mysterio to take his mask and in an emotional scene he takes off the mask and Nash, Hall, Luger & Liz laugh at him. Was that the right reaction?

What’s Konnan’s reaction after the match in the back?

At this point Konnan has had a music video he’s done come out…and then it turns into a parody when Disco Inferno makes it into one. Konnan had to be a merchandise mover…but here he is working with Disco Inferno. Was this the peak of what you thought Konnan could do?

The No Limit Soldiers are Konnan’s next big story which would transform into the Filthy Animals. When you put Konnan & Rey with Master P did you think it was the perfect scenario?

Did you ever go to Konnan for ideas with the angle or did Konnan find a way to come to you with them?

Was Konnan a locker room cancer? Was he a headache to deal with? Considering he had really brought in a lot of guys into the company he had to have influence over them…did he ever attempt to use that against you?

The West Texas Rednecks debut to counteract the Filthy Animals…how did Konnan feel about working with the likes of Curt Hennig & Barry Windham?

We’ve covered a lot of the West Texas Rednecks in the archives in our Curt Hennig episode…but one thing to point out is that you really felt the heat between the two stables on the air. Was that due in part to the likes of Konnan, Rey & Kidman being frustrated?

Vampiro joins WCW and it’s always been long rumored that him & Konnan had heat. Did you ever see any issues between the two of them or were they professional with each other?

After you’re reassigned in WCW did you hear from Konnan during that time?

You return in April of 2000 and Konnan is in the middle of a suspension due to comments he makes regarding asking for his release and criticizing WCW management including Bill Busch. Does Busch discuss Konnan with you at the time of your return?

Was it obvious Konnan didn’t want to be there anymore?

The Filthy Animals turn heel and add Nitro Girl Tygress as a manager but the Kidman - Hogan feud doesn’t really amount to much. What about that didn’t work?

Konnan gets hurt in the summer of 2000 and you’re gone by the time he returns back to the ring to finish out the closing of the company. What’s your relationship like with Konnan at that point?

Did you talk with him at all during your time in WWE? Did you think he could’ve done something in the company?

Konnan is in TNA and AAA and various other Mexican promotions afterwards and is seen as a heavy player in wrestling. You missed Konnan in your stint in TNA. Do you think there was a chance for him to come in while you were there or was his long standing legal battles with TNA at the time regarding his hip surgery holding him back from being there?

What is Konnan’s legacy to the business in your mind?

Do you still keep in touch with Konnan?